Wanna know why the Europeans are pissed off with the Greeks? The Greeks

[snagglepuss]

have taken European taxpayers to the cleaners. As a committed socialist, I support taxation but public money needs to be spent responsibly, not squandered. What Greeks have done is reprehensible. Given that anything posted from the Daily Mail is met with howls of it being a RW rag, I posted parts that deal with obscene tax evasion of the very very rich. It is true that the Daily Mail is a RW rag but some articles like this one are newsworthy despite the obvious RW bias.

"The Big Fat Greek Gravy Train: A special investigation into the EU-funded culture of greed, tax evasion and scandalous waste"


snip

Astonishingly, only 5,000 people in a country of 12 million admit to earning more than £90,000 a year — a salary that would not be enough to buy a garden shed in Kifissia (an Athens suburb whose streets are paved with marble).

Yet studies have shown that more than 60,000 Greek homes each have investments worth more than £1m, let alone unknown quantities in overseas banks, prompting one economist to describe Greece as a ‘poor country full of rich people’.

Manipulating a corrupt tax system, many of the residents simply say that they earn below the basic tax threshold of around £10,000 a year, even though they own boats, second homes on Greek islands and properties overseas.

snip

Even more incredibly, Greek shipping magnates — the king of kings among the wealthy of Kifissia — are automatically exempt from tax, supposedly on account of the great benefits they bring the country.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2007949/The-Big-Fat-Greek-Gravy-Train-A-special-investigation-EU-funded-culture-greed-tax-evasion-scandalous-waste.html#ixzz1QG2iKGje

[msongs]

1. just like in the USA - laws are only for working people who create the wealthnt

[snagglepuss]

3. No wonder America's 1% are so pissed with any tax increase, Greek magnates

pay none. That said did you read the rest of the article such as Athenians don't bother paying fares for trips on the opulent new subway the EU financed or that 600 different professions can retire at 50 and receive 95% of their income from the State? Germans who are financing this don't get to retire till they're 65.

Greeks are simply taking advantage of everyone else.

[dkf]

2. 30-40% of their income goes unreported.

Beats me how you think your people can retire at 55 with revenues so short changed.

[snagglepuss]

4. They don't care. The attitude is disgusting. According to the article 50 yrs old is

the retirement age for 600 different professions including hair dressers and they all receive a state pension which is 95% of their income.

[Karia]

7. Bogus stats on Greek retirement age

The anti- Greek-worker propaganda reminds me of what was going on in WI and MI this winter.

The "early retirement" figures that are being bandied about are based on the false idea that people enter certain careers at age 18, without any of the (mandatory!) schooling & training and work for 35 years straight. Even after you get training, it is highly unlikely that you will get a job right away. Only public sector workers can get as much as 80% of their wages (NOT 95% or 100%) and only after 35 years few can actually afford to retire). These people ARE paying high taxes, and their wages are low to begin with.

Many Greeks - including public sector employees - have at least one part-time job in addition to full-time employment, OR they have no f/t jobs at all and are patching together a living with multiple p/t jobs).

On the other hand, tax breaks for the wealthy are a HUGE issue.

[snagglepuss]

10. Any link? Last year the NYT reported the same facts as the DM. For 580 professions

deemed dangerous retirement age for women is 50 and for men 55 (some of the dangerous jobs are
"radio and television presenters, who are thought to be at risk from the bacteria on their microphones, and musicians playing wind instruments, who must contend with gastric reflux as they puff and blow.")

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/business/global/12pension.html

[SOS]

43. Greek retirement is 61

The average retirement age in Greece is 61.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8506142.stm

Greeks work more hours than any other OECD nation (except South Korea)

They work longer hours than the lazy Americans and Germans:

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

Greek external debt is $49,525 per person
US external debt is $46,577 per person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

When do we enact brutal austerity measures on the American public?

When rapacious banks and corrupt politicians destroy a nation, their PR firms immediately set about blaming the average Joe.
It's the stupid American homeowner and the Greek farmer who took down the global capitalist system!

[snagglepuss]

50. Retirement at 61 for many but there are 580 professions that have early retirement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/business/global/12pension.html

[SOS]

51. Not "for many", 61 is the national average

meaning a great number must work well beyond 61 to create a 61 average.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the average retirement age in America is 62

Greece: 61
USA: 62

The NYT and the Daily Mail seem to be casting stones at a working population nearly identical to our own.

Of course, when S&P downgrades our bonds to AA, Burston Marsteller will be on the job, issuing press releases blaming you and me.

[snagglepuss]

52. A full discussion of this is on the following blog.

http://aleksandreia.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/greek-retirement-age-and-more-on-the-greek-debt-crisis/

[WatsonT]

5. I thought they greeks were all innocent victims of the bankers

they're just decent hard working people who want a fair shake.

How can this be?

:sarcasm:

[JDPriestly]

6. How could the creditors have missed the fact that Greece does not

effectively collect taxes? That Greeks had to pay their taxes should have been a part of the deal before any money was lent to Greece.

[snagglepuss]

12. Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask its debt.

snip


Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.




http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html

[JDPriestly]

49. Der Spiegel is a German source.

I want to hear what the Greek people think.

Unfortunately, Greece is a country in which the divide between rich and poor is great. This sounds like something the rich did. Sounds like the rich did it and then tricked the poor into going along with it. It's possible that many people did not know what was going on.

Schwarzenegger solved the budget problem by issuing bonds -- voted on by an ignorant public. The bonds were issued on the assumption that our state's economy would boom.

Our state's economy has not boomed enough to pay off the bombs. Why do voters vote for debt? Why do people get over their heads in debt?

Because by nature we humans procrastinate. We will often put off into the future something that is painful to deal with in the present.

If you can correct the desire to procrastinate in yourself, you can probably live within your means provided you have some income.

That rule applies to governments, banks, everybody.

I learned it from my mother. In her 90s already, her house is spic and span by 10:00 a.m. every morning. OK, so mine isn't, but I still learned this principle from her: "Never put off to tomorrow what you can do today -- not even when it comes to paying bills."

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. The root of the problem?

Greece never met the conditions for entering the Euro in the first place; the Greek government outright lied in order to gain admission. That coupled with the widespread fraud and tax evasion are problematic; honestly I don't blame the Germans for not wanting to see any more of their tax money used to stave off an inevitable Greek default (and I don't object to David Cameron saying "not another penny of British money to bail out Greece" either, even if he is a fucking Tory).

EDIT: And Greece ALSO has EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND civil servants and public sector employees, according to figures I saw recently. In a country with a population of eleven million. Which is another part of the problem; a robust public sector is one thing, an oversized and largely corrupt public sector where jobs are created for political patronage rather than the need to deliver services is quite something else (especially when all those jobs have associated pensions at a time of fiscal austerity).

[coalition_unwilling]

36. Why doesn't Britain return all the Greek antiquities it has stolen from Greece over

the past few centuries?

I'm talking mainly of Tories.

Fuck the British or, more specifically, Tory spokespeople for same.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. The Elgin Marbles?

Why? When is the NY Metropolitan Museum going to return all the Egyptian antiquities JP Morgan paid to have plundered? Hypocrisy much?

[coalition_unwilling]

54. Actually, it was Cameron's hypocrisy I was trying to point out, for

suggesting that his country had no interest in helping the Greeks, after his country (under the leadership of earlier iterations of the Tories) plundered Greece.

[Taitertots]

9. Blaming the Greeks is total RW bullshit

Blame the predatory international finance corporations.

The Greeks want and get nothing more than any progressive American. This is just the RW using a manufactured problem to force a manufactured solution onto the working people.

[TBF]

11. Agree - it's the international capital (including those owners in Greece who are complicit) -

this has nothing to do with the people of Greece who are fighting back against this crap.

[snagglepuss]

15. It's not bullshit. The Greeks especially unions and those on the Left should have been

have been demanding magnates pay taxes, that tax evasion across the board had to be be eliminated. A sustainable socialist economy can only work if there is absolutley minimal corruption.

how much is this due to people being accustomed to looing the other way?

That finance companies have obscenely profited from this is no big surprise, this is bound to happen when there is an attitude of looking the other way.

[Taitertots]

17. "Looking the other way" or being unable to fight against international finance giants

All you are doing is blaming those without power for the problems created by those who have excessive power.

How much of this is rich people across Europe forcing this upon the Greeks to justify RW policies? This is nothing but a manufactured problem to create a manufactured solution.

[snagglepuss]

21. Why haven't Greeks over the years been protesting against the obscene fact

that the uber wealthy aren't required to any taxes? The reason why even no Greek govt has done dick about tax evasion is that it would have been politically unpopular as it is rift. It is utterly daft to think that a socialist economy can be sustained without stringent controls on taxation as well as on banking.

Progressives seem to be forgetting that other EU countries that have stringent controls and high taxes are now on the hook. If its the soley the banks' fault why aren't all EU countries in the same fix?

[Taitertots]

25. Why do those without power fall victim to those with power?

Because they lack the ability to stop it.

"If its the soley the banks' fault why aren't all EU countries in the same fix?"
Why aren't the rich and powerful in the same boat as the weak and victimized?

[LeftishBrit]

37. +1

And many other EU countries are in a pretty bad state themselves, if mostly not quite as bad. Spain and Portugal were close to default quite recently. Many other countries, including the UK, are suffering badly from the recession. Indeed one main reason why other EU countries are not that keen on helping Greece financially, is not that they think that the Greeks are sinners, but that they are struggling to bail *themselves* out.

Greek governments may not always have had the best policies, but they, let alone their people, cannot be blamed for the fact that the banks screwed Greece even more than some other countries, and that Greece is now dealing with the IMF's usual response to countries in financial difficulties: kick 'em hard when they're down!

[CJCRANE]

35. Iceland, Ireland (and potentially Spain and Portugal) all have big financial problems

caused by the financial crisis.

Other European countries including the UK are also undergoing austerity measures caused by the crisis.

[banned from Kos]

19. more fallout today - Roche, Sanofi halt drug shipments

to some hospitals in Greece.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-25/roche-sanofi-curb-greek-drug-supply-on-unpaid-bills-times-says.html?cmpid=yhoo

[bemildred]

13. Awwww, let me get my little tiny violin ...

:nopity:

[xchrom]

16. indeed -- i'll get mine out & it'll be a duet

:nopity:

[Jazzgirl]

29. Mine is smaller.

[bemildred]

33. Oh, let's not get into a dispute about size.

Those things always wind up somewhere unseemly.
:-)

[inna]

14. ugh - incredibly reactionary and unsavory piece; quite disgusting, in fact.

see posts #9 and 11.

:thumbsdown:

[snagglepuss]

18. There is nothing unsavory about looking at unpalatable facts. The Greek

Left turned a blind eye to massive tax evasion. Why weren't they vociferously protesting the fact that the uber rich pay zilch in taxes? The only way socialist ideals can be sustained is for a government to insure corruption in all areas is kept to the very minimum.

[bemildred]

20. So don't bail them out? That's what the Greek people want too, right? nt

[blindpig]

22. That tax evasion has little to do with the average Greek.

Turning a blind eye, hardly, when have the masses had any control over the rich in capitalist society?

As for PASOK, it is utterly compromised, about as socialist as our current president, whores for the bankers. Gonna be some really big demonstrations next week and the KKE is gaining electoral strength, 13.5% latest. The shit is about to hit the fan.

[snagglepuss]

26. Reactionary? Bullshit. Let's see what the credible Greek New Left Review says

about the causes for the crisis.


snip

The economic causes of the Greek debt and deficit have been widely discussed. They are of two types: the neo-liberal economic model of the last 20 years with its excessive reliance on growth based on financial markets, real estate values and debt has brought the whole of Europe to its knees and is the main contributor to the Greek tragedy. Secondly, the two ruling parties have used the Greek state to strengthen their political hegemony. Clientellism, nepotism and corruption, tax evasion and even more importantly lawful tax avoidance offered by the ruling political to the economic elites have added to the woes (ship-owners based on Pireas receive some 58 tax breaks which makes the British non-dom furore look like small change).



http://greekleftreview.wordpress.com/2010/12/18/the-greek-tragedy/

[inna]

30. Yes, your source in the OP is reactionary as fuck, fyi.

[snagglepuss]

40. Obviously you haven't read the article I posted in response to yours from

"The Greek New Left Review" which cites corruption and tax evasion as one of the causes for the current crisis. Like I said in the op the DM is a RW rag but the facts its cites about corruption is bang on.

[blindpig]

46. That's the kind of excuses that capitalists always make.

It's always 'bad actors', the problem couldn't be systemic, oh no, couldn't be.

Then why does it keep happening?

[amborin]

23. the DM, while entertaining at times, is a right-wing rag

[inna]

28. yep - and it is *extremely* right wing, even more so than Torygraph!

- definitely the British equivalent of FauxNews, with the same noxious/brainwashing/RW-meme-disseminating "infotainment" principle at its core.

No idea if it is Rupert himself who runs that rag, but if it's not him, it's one of his minions. :shrug: Definitely contributing to dumbing down the general public, everywhere - and making the world "better", for plutocrats. :nuke:

[LeftishBrit]

39. Actually the DM isn't run by Rupert - they have a far-RW tradition going back even further than that

Founded by Lord Northcliffe and his brother Lord Rothermere in 1896. Now owned by the current Lord Rothermere, who lives in France to avoid paying tax in Britain. (The Barclay brothers who own the Torygraph are also tax exiles.) Viscount Rothermere is very Tory, and his sister-in-law is the second wife of Mark Thatcher.

The Mail has always been viciously RW and in the 1930s was sympathetic to the Nazis.

But you are right in your general assessment of the British press!

[snagglepuss]

48. As stated in several post 'The Greek New Left Review' cites corruption

as one of the causes of the crisis. The Greek New Left Review is hardly a RW rag. Furthermore as the subject line clearly states the OP is about European hostility toward the Greeks and the reasons for it. What European wouldn't be angry knowing that Greek billionaires are legally exempt from paying any taxes?

[TheKentuckian]

24. How does 60k wealthy, tax evading Greeks turned into Greeks?

Or are you saying we deserve to be homeless in old age, unable to retire, and no safety net because of our millions of tax evading wealthy and lawless corporations?

It always turns into a game of blaming the masses and the poor for the deviltry of the privileged few that capture governments and run amok.

Even for the "left", once we get to the natively corrupt capitalism, it is easier to blame the poor who suffer from the effects of wealth disparity, environmental devastation, and free access to resources before, during, and after the shenanigans than it is to blame those reaping the benefits and rigging the game.

"The left" have eroded to little more than a gate keeping, pressure valve for the systems in place.

Look at the OP here, knows the facts but just uses them as a broad brush to attack the working people.

[Starry Messenger]

27. You might have written "wealthy Greeks" and saved yourself some grief here.

The everyday rank and file Greek worker didn't do this to the country, your subject line makes it look like everyone had a hand in this. Also, given that this is the exact same story in most of the "developed" countries right now, you have to wonder why a right-wing rag like the Mail isn't pointing its finger back at its own country of origin.

[lunatica]

31. Thank you! The wealthy Greeks aren't the ones marching in the streets

[inna]

32. and you know what? the hope of the world is in those marching Greeks.

[The Big Vetolski]

34. Yes, the ordinary Greek people did absolutely NOTHING to create

this crisis. Wall Street, Goldman Sachs in particular, sold derivatives and credit default swaps on Greek debt just like they did in America to create the housing bubble, then bet on Greece to fail. Maybe they did this to undermine the euro, which was threatening to become the world's strongest currency and thus threaten the American dollar's status as the currency of oil.

[snagglepuss]

47. True enough however it does show that people prefer knee jerk reactions

instead of reading. In regards to the subject line, that is simply semantics, no different from headlines blaming 'Americans'for actions of their goverment, for instance Europeans being pissed off with 'Americans' for not doing more to curb energy consumption. On top of that the subject line references the hostility Europeans have toward Greeks since they may be on the hook to bail them out. I am sure Germans, who also have transit systems based on honesty, are pissed that their subways which they had to pay for are rigorously patrolled by transit police who get on trains and demand to see everyone has valid tickets while the Greeks couldn't care less that people don't pay.

[Starry Messenger]

53. It's more of a technical thing.

The subject line in an OP sets the tone, and the way it was written didn't make it clear that it wasn't your point of view. Just a little critique. I pay attention to members here and that didn't seem like a POV that you would normally espouse, so I read down all the way. A lot of people here don't really pay attention to anything more than what they read, and tone is sometimes hard to pick up on the tubes.

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're trying to say about the transit stuff. I think all of the cultural divide and conquer just benefits the IMF and conceals their relationship to all of this. Do the Greeks blame the Germans for doing the bidding of the IMF?

[CJCRANE]

38. When this kind of financial crisis happened in Latin America

most people reasoned it was due to government corruption and predatory international banks and institutions...

But now it's happened in Europe and America many want to blame the poor, working class and middle class.

Let's face it, if the mainstream pundits and politicians didn't predict the looming crisis, how do you expect the average working joe or georgina to see it coming?

[peace4ever]

41. the international bankers caused this mess and expect the people to pay for it.

[sendero]

42. Whatever faults.

... exist in the Greek economy as a whole, these "bailouts" with draconian strings attached, are for the benefit of the banks and no one else.

I hope Greece, like Iceland, tells them to pack sand. And then Spain, then Portugal, then Ireland.

Some way some how the FUCKING BANKSTERS that have ruined the economies of MOST OF THE WORLD need to suffer SOME CONSEQUENCE.

[blindpig]

44. They need to be expropriated without compensation.

But the working class will need to control the government for that to happen.

[banned from Kos]

55. there you have it. Greece - default now then be kicked out

of the EU, go back to the Drachma which no one will want, and slash services anyway because your loan/credit spigot is shut off.

You do know that is the absolute worst scenario for Greece?

For better or worse your working German cares far more about Deutsche Bank than he does Greece (I take no side here).

[sendero]

57. The bottom line?

Is that even that would not be as bad as what the bankers want, that is what the average Greek thinks and that is what I think.

[entanglement]

56. A socialist wouldn't refer to "the Greeks" without distinguishing Greek rich from the Greek masses

who are facing a concerted, ferocious attack on their wages and living standards. You go wrong at the outset: You fail to realize that the interests of the Greek ruling class are far closer to those of the global financial oligarchy and EU capitalists than those of ordinary Greek people.

Lastly, the "Daily Mail" of the UK is a far right-wing media outlet in the traditions of Der Sturmer.

/ed.