NJ State Democrats are the perfect example of what is wrong with our party

[Horse with no Name]

A Democrat voting against Labor is like a....republican.

By allowing everyone in our party under this big tent crap that has long worn out its welcome--it has allowed republicans to run as Democrats--therefore fucking up the entire mission of OUR party as well as diluting the two-party system in this country.

It is also a very good reason why "just voting for the party" is a crock of shit.

Do your research before you pull that lever.

The tired adage that "at least we have the majority"...well, no, we really don't.
We are just going to take the political blame for republican policy being passed on a Democrats watch.

This tired old tent needs to come down. Sooner than later. I'm ready for litmus tests for our elected officials. I'm ready for the leadership to start busting down these elected Democrats when they stray from the party line. It's the ONLY way we are going to take our party back from the fucking republicans who have infiltrated it.

[Autumn]

1. K/R

:dem: :dem: :dem:

[rpannier]

2. When you have a big tent

It means you're allowing every clown to come into it.

[Horse with no Name]

4. Sorry. I stand for slamming the door on those that don't stand up for working people

The days of the tent need to be over. It only serves as refuge for republicans.

[rpannier]

9. And I don't disagree with you

That's why I use clowns as my example

[Horse with no Name]

25. My apologies. I see that now. Clowns, indeed. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Me too. If you're only for the rich and corporations, change parties.

But Democrats just don't face off to these pseudo-Democrats and accuse them of being fake.

[robcon]

3. If we "take back" Democrats who stray from "your" line, Dems will be a fringe party.

There aren't enough voters who support what you would call the 'straight Democratic line' in NJ or in most areas.

[Horse with no Name]

5. You don't think REAL DEMOCRATS support Unions?

Good to know...because I think REAL DEMOCRATS do.

I think the republicans in our midst don't.

It's a very good litmus test of who really belongs...and who really doesn't.

Support of unions is NOT a fringe idea.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. I agree completely. That is the dividing line between a real Dem and a GOPer in disguise

Whom are you fighting for? The rich or the rest? That's the measuring stick.

[Joe the Revelator]

41. What party should a pro separation of church and state, pro choice....

Pro gay marriage, pro stem cell, anti union person go? Why is your issue more important then any other?

[n2doc]

7. bull###t. That's a republican line.

A majority of this country consistently support traditional democratic political positions in polls. This party needs to own those positions, clear as day.

[Horse with no Name]

16. Yes it is.

Our big tent doesn't have room for disaffected republicans anymore--at least those that cling to their puritanical social values and republican anti-tax woo-woo.

[n2doc]

18. I think the real point is that a political party has to stand for Something

If it gets watered down to the point where people can't say "yes. Democrats stand for working people, the environment, wage equity, safe working conditions, etc." then people won't have a reason to vote for them. It is already a huge problem. The one thing the Repubs have going for them is that they spout a consistent message. If you want to support rich people and big biz, vote Republican, you won't be disappointed.

[Horse with no Name]

21. +1000. n/t

[Tesha]

24. Really! We've reached the point where we're measuring *HOW MANY* of our core principles any given...

..."Democratic" politician violates.

Are they still entitled to call themselves Democrats
if they're all of:

o Anti-Labor?
o Anti-Gay Rights?
o Anti-Women's Rights?
o Pro-War?
o Pro-Corporate?
o Anti-Medicare?
o Anti-Medicaid?
o Anti-Social Security?
o Anti-Voter's Rights
o Anti-Racial Equality and Justice


Just how far will we go in trashing our brand so that
we can still call these particular clown-in-our-big-
tent "Democrats"?

And please, don't anyone call them "Litmus tests"; they
are (some of) the core principles on which our Party
is (was?) based.

Tesha

[Tesha]

23. Do we actually know that?

Or is that just a meme we we've been fed for decades
by folks such as the Koch-inspired DLC? It suited their
purposes very nicely, didn't it?

Maybe it's time to test again whether there's any
actual truth to the meme?

Tesha

[patrice]

6. I concur.

[tabbycat31]

8. 70% of NJ Democrats voted against the bill

Including the chairman of the state party

[TheKentuckian]

12. That 30% is unacceptable and gives the TeaPubliKlans "bipartisan" cover for their wickedness

Let the TeaPubliKlans have the 30%. Better to be a decent minority and work for the people while steadfastly and resolutely pushing real solutions than a majority of mealy mouthed lip service and conspiring with the enemy.

[xphile]

15. Then 30% need to go.

I've said it before and someone was appalled.

If you vote against labor, you're a Republican and you need to get the fuck out.

I'm tired of these half asses who call themselves Democrats but refuse to stand up for Democratic values being included in the party it's watering down the brand as it were.

[Horse with no Name]

17. 30% are not Democrats. It is high time we call them out for what they are

and throw their asses to the curb. Who really cares if they have a "D" behind their name or not? If they are republicans they need to go. They have infiltrated our party--hell, they've done it for years and that is how they are completely controlling the agenda. In fact, their ways have only come to light in Wisconsin because there really was no other way to keep their schemes under wraps.

We have GOT to start insisting on purity and loyalty in our party or our country will be destroyed--if it hasn't already.

[davepc]

33. To do that you first have to dismantle the political machine. They control all the money.

So it's not quite as simple as primarying a few people. You'd have to dismantle the whole state party from top to bottom and reform it in a way that's not modeled after Tammany Hall.

[badtoworse]

40. BTW, I assume you know that Senate President Sweeney and Assembly Speaker Oliver are in the 30%.

I would say they are the two most powerful Democrats in the state. Your profile does not indicate the state in which you live. I'm guessing it's not in the northeast.

[roody]

42. What bill?

[ProSense]

13. Just think

If Corzine had remained Governor, public employees and labor unions would have been protected. In fact, NJ would likely have had a marriage equality bill a year ago.

[StarsInHerHair]

14. recalls wherever possible on Blue Dogs "new Dems" is a goad to get them

to go Left, there must be consequences

[FormerDittoHead]

19. For what it's worth, "just" having the majority *is* a good thing.

I'm not going to defend NJ Democrats.

But on THE FEDERAL LEVEL, "at least we have the majority" has a LOT of power to it when it comes to making the rules and the control of the committees.

I hear you about NJ, but the place for liberal progressives to get their message heard and questions answered is in the primary.

But in the General: Vote Democratic. It *does* make a difference.

[Horse with no Name]

20. I'm starting to disagree with that

if you fill your "majority" with disaffected republicans--then we end up getting MORE republican legislation.

We need a STRONG Democratic party...even if we have to sit back and rebuild it.

Because from where I am sitting--we are hemorrhaging union benefits, Planned Parenthood is being gutted...and wondering WHY republicans did SO much more with less. They have INFESTED our party. We need to clean them out and quit acting like we are winning the message because we aren't. But we are coming across as being very WEAK.

[TheKentuckian]

22. Sounds reasonable but is functionally suicidal

The Republicans still end up in charge via the dictates of dumpsterfires like Baucus, Conrad, and Ike Skelton use those powers to advance the right wing agenda and vote for rules that give the minority power

Over the long haul, we just transform into what we oppose and force the opposition to become more extremist in order to differentiate themselves.

[badtoworse]

26. A lot of working people in NJ are struggling to pay their taxes and keep their homes...

and they don't get anywhere near the level of benefits that public employees do. What consideration should those working people get? Do Democrats represent constituencies other than state workers?

Do you think NJ taxpayers would accept a tax increase to continue providing benefits that only public employees get? I don't. What would you cut from the budget to continue providing benefits to public employees at little or no cost to them? How about massive layoffs. Don't think that could happen? Look at Camden and Newark. The budget has to be balanced and there aren't the votes to overide a certain veto of any tax increase, even one on the rich. Sorry, but those are the facts and I believe that the Democrats who voted for the changes recognize them.

[Horse with no Name]

27. So...because the unions negotiated a fair living wage and benefits for workers

and since non-unionized workers are taking a beating because the CORPORATIONS that they work for have cut their benefits and their pay--we can't see that we need to lift THOSE workers up to union standards instead of pulling union workers down to their level?

This is an all out assault on working people from the corporations to keep from paying people what they are worth. Corporate profits are at an all-time high. Workers wages are knocking on the doors of being at an all-time low.

Now...let's go a step further and let me "assume" that you really are just that naive.

Do you realize that Whitman gave a "tax holiday" to money that was already negotiated?
And it is now time to pay that money back and the state simply doesn't want to?
So...let's just destroy it. That way they won't be obligated to pay for it.

So...I am also assuming that you are anti-union...or you simply just don't understand how they benefit working people across the board.

You should probably learn this...but I doubt it would change YOUR mind. Thinking and reasonable people already know the answer.

[badtoworse]

29. I laid out the NJ political and fiscal landscape as it exists today

That's the hand that NJ Democrats got dealt and have to play. What would you do if you were in their shoes? I'd like some specifics with reasons why you think your plan would be doable.

If you think I'm misrepresenting where NJ is right now, then tell me where I have it wrong.

I fully support raising everyone's benefits to union standards, but I don't know how to get it done in any reasonable time frame. Do you?

[Horse with no Name]

30. You laid out anti-union sentiment

and are attempting to justify it.

Sorry...carry on.

I won't change your mind and you most definitely won't change this progressive's mind.

NJ is fucking over their workers because they don't want to pay the money back. It REALLY is that simple.

Not only that...but apologists are attempting to justify it by any means necessary to further their agenda.

It is very easy. Raise corporate taxes and take back the millions that Christie just gave away.

[badtoworse]

34. The votes just aren't there to raise corporate taxes.

You need to deal with that. Even if every Democrat voted for such an approach, Christie would veto it and we don't have the votes to override. That's what happened last year with the "millionaires tax" and it would happen this year if a tax increase were passed in the legislature.

Raising taxes is a hot button issue in New Jersey - look at what hapened to Jim Florio after he did it in 1990. While we're on that, the legislature is up for election this year - do you honestly believe they would raise taxes now? Raise taxes on corporations? The NJ corporate rate is 9% on income over $100K which is higher than NY and CT, and among the highest in the country. I thought the idea was to attract corporations to expand in NJ not drive them away.

I haven't expressed any sentiments. I've laid out facts that you haven't refuted, but won't accept.

[Horse with no Name]

36. IF the Democrats voted like Democrats we wouldn't be having this conversation

The idea is to attract jobs--but not at the expense of the workers.

[badtoworse]

37. You still haven't balanced the budget

It's easy to duck the issue on an internet message board. The Democrats in the NJ Legislature don't have that luxury.

[Horse with no Name]

38. Roll back the tax cuts that Christie gave. THAT is easy to ignore on an internet message board too.

Not to mention that 70% of Democratic leglislators voted the correct way. Get rid of the republicrats and we might be able to solve some problems.

[badtoworse]

39. You don't have the votes for that. It's still your move. - nt

[xphile]

32. An example of the problem. Any so-called Democrat who makes this bullshit argument

is not a Democrat they're a Republican and need to GET THE FUCK OUT of the Democratic party.

Government workers pay taxes too. You think they don't earn their money? So what people who work for the government are supposed to do so with inadequate compensation because the rest of the workforce can't be bothered to fight for fairer compensation?

People like you are like crabs in a goddamned bucket. Instead of pulling yourself up you rather pull down those who managed to get an inch or two above you.

You do not balance the budget on the backs of workers. Period end of goddamn story. There's no excuse for this bit of bullshit except for sheer cowardice.

You and the so-called Democrats need to be honest and join the party to which you belong. The Republican party.

[badtoworse]

35. So how would you balance the budget?

Do you know anything about the political landscape in NJ? How would you get past Christie's veto? We didn't have the votes last year; why would this year be any different?

[Joe the Revelator]

43. Where does a pro choice, pro gay marriage, pro sep. Church and state, anti union person fit....

Because they certainly aren't republicans, and it's why litmus tests never work.

[Horse with no Name]

48. Libertarian. n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

49. Not if you still believe the government should provide social programs.

[roody]

46. Tax those who are not paying their fair share.

[badtoworse]

47. You don't know much about NJ politics, do you?

[milwaukeelib33]

28. Considering Wisconsin

is embroiled in a viscous fight to save workers rights against rethugs that have majorities in everything, this is particularly disgusting. If our Dems here took an active role in the assault they'd be run out of the state pronto.

[Horse with no Name]

31. The Democrats in Wisconsin are heroes.

They stood side by side, arm in arm to attempt to protect their unions. As would MOST sane people in this country...however, I don't expect a REAL DEMOCRAT not to protect the unions and I don't expect a republican (no matter who they pretend to be) to protect them.

[sufrommich]

44. Maybe this argument should have been made before union

representation shrank to 16% of the working population. Rank and file democrats buying union made American products would have helped. The problem is that younger generations of Americans think of union workers as state and federal employees, and there aren't enough of them to carry a party.

[Theo Haffey]

45. I believe most Democrats are fighting for the right cause

Some NJ Democrats are on the bad side, but they are a few bad apples. Republicans are still to blame by and large for our woes.