California asks teachers to give up pensions

[proud2BlibKansan]

(CBS News)
It's a trend that's gaining momentum in states across the country, and public workers don't like it. They're being told their prized defined-benefit pensions can no longer be afforded.

CBS News correspondent Ben Tracy reports that many teachers are beginning to feel like there is a public campaign to scapegoat them for greater problems.

Family science night is a chance for teacher Julie Van Winkle to show parents the experiments she's been doing in her classroom. The 32-year-old has been teaching for seven years. It's her first year here at Nightingale Middle School in Los Angeles, but Julie, who makes about $58,000 per year, already feels like a veteran of what some call a war against teachers.

"I fought tooth and nail to keep my job and now it looks like I am going to have to do that to keep my pension," Julie said.



Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/12/eveningnews/main20070715.shtml#ixzz1P7ATogpy

[Poll_Blind]

1. +1

PB

[bbinacan]

2. Given a choice in that position

I'd want a lump sum from my pension put into a 401k plan. A 401k is not automatically put into the stock market. You can do a money market, GIC, or fixed rate annuity.

[Zoeisright]

3. Well, let's try this: give the teachers ALL of the money they're already PAID INTO

the pensions, plus interest. That should shut the stupid fucks up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Amen

You can try to pry mine from my cold dead hands - but even then I'm not giving it up.

You want to put me on a 410K, then you can double my salary. That's the only way I'd come close to considering this nonsense.

[femmocrat]

9. +100!

Our state has mismanaged our state retirement funds and wants to blame the "greedy" teachers. We kept our part of the bargain.

[malaise]

35. Ditto n/t

[Yupster]

36. I think the states would take that deal in a minute

Math teachers would fight it to their last breaths.

[LiberalFighter]

4. Do they cut the pensions of elected government officials?

Or school superintendents, principals, staff members of elected officials?

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. I seriously doubt it.

[RKP5637]

14. I think it's time for that. Why do these elected government officials think they

are immune. I think the pay and benefits, for example, for congressmen is ridiculous. They supposedly work for "we the people."

[LiberalFighter]

20. What they receive is sometimes hard to determine.

When they receive a salary, per diem, health care, pension. And those last two are something that more and more Americans don't receive when they retire.

[RKP5637]

21. Ha, I remember well years ago my parents always telling me to

always go with a decent company that cared about its employees and showed that by having a good health care and pension plan. If alive today they would be stunned at the SH** going on. I still have trouble wrapping my head around it.

[Yupster]

37. Elected officials shouldn't get any pension at all

Elected representative isn't supposed to be a career.

[thanks_imjustlurking]

68. +1000 nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

6. +1

[Ilsa]

7. We have to let our children's teachers never retire or

live out their retirement in poverty because we won't end the fucking wars, we won't close the damn tax loopholes on outsourcing and offshoring corporations, and we won't ask the millionaires and billionaires to pay their fair share to support our infrastructure (including public education). How screwed up does it have to get before someone corrects the injustice?

[femmocrat]

15. Wasn't Social Security started because of a retired teacher found living in a shack?

Maybe that would make "them" happy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. But teachers in 14 states don't even get Social Security

Alaska

Maine

California

Massachusetts

Colorado

Minnesota

Connecticut

Missouri

Illinois

Nevada

Kentucky

Ohio

Louisiana

Texas

[Yupster]

38. You make that sound like a negative

Teachers in Texas pay the same amount into TRS that they would have paid into social security and get way over two times the benefit that social security would have provided had they been in it.

Which brings up the question, how is it that teachers (in the states you list) do not have to be in social security when all the rest of us do?

What makes them so special? Do you think doctors would like to set up their own system in lieu of social security? Or lawyers or stockbrokers? Of course they would, but they can't. Only teachers can.

I remember President Obama during the campaign saying the reason social security works is because it's universal, and I said, not if you're a teacher.

[Horse with no Name]

42. I worked for the State as a nurse and I didn't pay into SS

my contribution went into a 401b.

[Yupster]

45. Any idea why certain occupations have to contribute to ss

and others don't?

And you hear people talk about the universal program of social security.

Note -- It was probably a 403 (b) or maybe a 401 (a) or maybe both.

[Horse with no Name]

46. Sorry. It was a 403b. My mistake.

In Texas, it has something to do with being a state or county employee. As far as I know, they are the only entities that can opt to do that.

I wondered about it as well. I thought it was a trial balloon to see how much money can be made in the stock market on retirement accounts to see if it was worth pursuing the theft of Social Security.

MANY trial balloons for the rest of the country start here.:(

[Bandit]

64. Government agencies only to my understanding

Teachers and Public employees in all of those states have other arrangements. Private companies are not allowed to do anything like this..

[Yupster]

66. But have you ever heard anyone ever say why?

Why should teachers and other government workers be able to avoid social security and set up their own systems for retirement?

You know that doctors and lawyers would love to do that. Stockbrokers and bankers too.

But none of them are able to - only teachers and other government workers.

I've never had anyone tell me why that should be.

[alarimer]

73. Not all public employees in Texas have to deal with that.

I get both (or will, presumably, when I retire). Not the pension amounts to a whole lot but it is still more secure than 401k. Though it is underfunded, which is the main problem with state pension plans. They have been raided and mismanaged for years and now Republican (and some Democratic) assholes want us to lose those pensions, though we have paid into them for years. If they want to get rid of those pensions, they need to reimburse us for all the money we have put into them, plus accrued interest.

[csziggy]

72. AARP was started because of a teacher living in a chicken coop

http://youtu.be/LAjA6oA5Jsg

[RKP5637]

10. I often wonder how many are going to avoid the teaching profession as a

career. The future of this country is being attacked from all directions, just about everything at once.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. No need to worry about that; we have TFA

It's the 22-22 plan. They are hiring 22 year olds and paying them $22K a year.

[Horse with no Name]

44. I know TWO right now

friends of my daughters...went all the way to the last semester and realized they made a huge mistake.

In our area...there are ZERO jobs for teachers. ZERO. And there aren't any for hundreds and hundreds of miles.

[kick-ass-bob]

59. Sadly, I did.

My dream as a kid from the time I was 5 was to be a teacher. I even had a little blackboard on my wall and I made up the names of students and wrote them down and 'called roll'. As I got older, I enjoyed helping people understand things they didn't previously. And in college, even though I did not go into the education school, I tutored math, helped my classmates do well in courses I knew inside and out (economics stuff) and my goal was to be a college professor who actually taught, like the ones I had.

Those dreams died out (no PhD for me and those types of schools were few and far between) and later I thought about going back to teaching in schools. I looked at the pay and benefits and could not make the 50% pay cut work for me and my family, even though I have the passion for teaching people. I supplemented my work with coaching sports in the area - which I love. For all that teachers have to put up with for so little support, I fear there is no chance I will ever make that a profession.

[spartan61]

11. How very sad.

Teachers in 15 states can't even pay into Social Security, only into their pension plans. Does this mean that teachers in those states will end up retiring with almost nothing? (Not sure if CA is one of the 15 states.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Yes California is one of those non SS states

Alaska

Maine

California

Massachusetts

Colorado

Minnesota

Connecticut

Missouri

Illinois

Nevada

Kentucky

Ohio

Louisiana

Texas

[femrap]

31. So all the teachers paid into

the Annuity, right? That's the teachers' money.

I'm sick of this shit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Yes it's their money

Their employing districts also made a matching donation but that is deferred compensation - pension contributions in lieu of salary increases.

[Yupster]

43. The problem is the amount they paid in has nothing to do with what they get

That is set by a formula.

Just to give an example, in Texas.

The retired teacher gets...

2.3 times the years experience equals the percentage pay.

So a teacher retires after 39 years teaching at age 62.

Her top three years pay (grandfathered) averaged $ 78,000.

Her formula would be 2.3 x 39 = 89.7 % of 78,000 or

$ 69,966 a year for the rest of her life.

She could easily get that $ 70,000 a year for the next 30 years.

That is way, way more than she ever put into the system. In fact she may get paid more money retired thn she made her whole life teaching.

[spooky3]

54. Several things wrong with your conclusions based on this calculation

1) If you believe in markets, then you should recognize that this deferred compensation is part of the total comp. package, offsetting a lower current wage than would otherwise be possible for the state to pay. Therefore, it is irrelevant whether one receives more of his/her total pay after retirement. If you believe in markets, then you know that applicants accepted jobs on the terms of the total pay package, not on just part of it, and they tradeoff benefits and salary. If the total package was exceedingly rich, Texas would have had far more applicants with extremely high qualifications for teachers' jobs than were needed, enabling them to further lower the total pay package. You can't look only at benefits or only at current salary to determine what the market rate actually is. Likewise, if cuts are made to deferred compensation for future teachers, in all likelihood, the salaries will have to increase.

2) Taking away a benefit already earned and vested is not only inequitable and unethical, it would not be permitted under ERISA in a private sector plan. In curtailments and terminations, everyone becomes immediately 100% vested.

3) What evidence do you have that the average of $78K is anywhere close to the true mean pay of teachers retired under the grandfathered terms? This site says it's ~$50K, as of 2009.

4) You've chosen the absolute top pension calculation, one that hasn't been available since 2005 for anyone who wasn't grandfathered. That isn't a good argument for further changes.

5) The appropriate comparison is not to what an individual put into the system, but rather that sum, plus the sum contributed on his/her behalf by the employer, plus the annual rate of return that a prudently invested retirement fund should have earned over time. Further, in making comparisons to employees who are in other systems who are also covered by SS, you would also have to add to the comparison employees' pay the value of SS that they will receive but the state employees do not.

[spooky3]

63. oops, here's the missing link

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/average-teacher-salary-texas.html

And, the $50K is for all current teachers, not retirees, who surely had much lower average salaries over for example, the years 1970-2005, versus the average 2009 salary--even if you just take the highest 3 years for the retirees.

[Yupster]

67. I'm just using the real life numbers of people I work with

A teacher who has worked 39 years of course would expect his top three years to be well above any teacher average for pay.

Not only would he be at the top of the salary schedule, but he/she would also be more likely to be a department head or other leader. Also since teachers know their retirement is based on their top three years salary, they are more likely to do things like teach summer school those last three years to drive that top salary up.

If they didn't know to do that, people like me would advise them too.

My question still is why though.

Why do teachers and other government workers get to set up their own system instead of social security?

Doctors would love to do this. So would lawyers and stockbrokers, but none of those groups can do that. Only teachers and other government workers.

If a kid's dad dies, I'm perfectly fine with us all contributing a little so he can get a social security check until he's 18 or 21.
It doesn't seem right for us all to contribute except teachers and other government employees. Same with a disabled person getting social security. Should we all agree to pay for his upkeep with a social security check, except teachers who are not in the system?

Why is my question. What makes those workers special? Is it just a matter of governments passing special excemptions for themselves again?

[Starry Messenger]

12. Then the Terminator should lose his. For starters.

He's the one who negotiated the shitty backroom deal with Enron and cost the state billions of dollars. http://www.democracynow.org/2003/10/6/schwarzenegger_accused_of_involvement_in_9b


Public workers didn't crash the economy.

[RKP5637]

16. +1, n/t

[Karmadillo]

18. Until workers of all stripes join together to take on the forces who are

clearly happy to impoverish us all in the name of profit, this crap is going to continue and, given the economy and the longterm unemployment rate, likely going to succeed. There are way more of us than there are of them and we need to start acting like it.

[adigal]

25. +1000 - how about we stop buying their Made In China crap

Buy locally made goods, from local people if you have to buy at all. Have a Buyer's strike and they will stop screwing around. But Americans can't do that. They must have their toys ASAP.

[Karmadillo]

26. You know, that makes so much sense. Ian Welsh had a recent post about options

and opting out was one of them. One wouldn't necessarily need to imitate Thoreau, but it wouldn't be impossible to simply stop buying all the stuff we don't need. Cutting their revenue stream is one of our best weapons.

[woo me with science]

27. I think many people have already stopped buying what they don't need,

because they can't afford it anymore. Part of the problem is that they are bleeding us for necessities now, too. Healthcare costs skyrocketing, rents, utilities. Clothing is more expensive and of poorer quality. We pay for things that used to be free (TV), and corporations are setting up systems so that old ways of saving money don't work anymore. If you buy a car, it might come with a computer that must be serviced by the dealer...Your brother-in-law or the cheaper local mechanic can't work on it anymore. We are being systematically bled in more ways than our parents and grandparents could have imagined.

[dana_b]

55. +1

I agree completely. If, for instance, the nurses unions joined with the teachers unions, then it would be more difficult to slash their benefits. If more of us band together, it becomes more difficult to enact these harmful tactics.

[proud patriot]

65. Anonymous has asked for town squares to be taken 6/14

Tomorrow . A Walkerville summer

[bvar22]

22. Well Of Course!

The money for Millionaire Tax Cuts, Capital Gain Cuts, and a reduction in Inheritance Taxes has to come from somewhere.
Duh!

When The Working Class & The Poor realize WE have more in common with each other
than we have in common with our Rich Overlords in BOTH Political Parties,
WE can have "change".

Our Brothers & Sisters in South/Central America have given us a Blue Print.
What they have accomplished is nothing short of (near) bloodless revolutions,
but you won't hear about it from our MSM or Political Leadership.

"The worst enemy of humanity is U.S. capitalism. That is what provokes uprisings like our own, a rebellion against a system, against a NeoLiberal model, which is the representation of a savage capitalism. If the entire world doesn't acknowledge this reality, that nation states are not providing even minimally for health, education and nourishment, then each day the most fundamental human rights are being violated."
----Bolivian Reform President Evo Morales

FDR said much the same thing in 1944 with his Economic Bill of Rights.
That is WHY I joined the Democratic Party 45 years ago,
but I don't hear these words today from our Party Leadership.


VIVA Democracy!
Hope we get some here soon.



Who will STAND UP and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
"By their WORKS you will know them,"
And by their WORKS they should be held accountable.

[WillyT]

23. Great... Make Teaching Even MORE Unattractive...

Idiots!

:mad:

:nuke:

:kick: & Rec!!!

[adigal]

24. I remember hearing pensions were being played with and put into

those damn junk mortgage funds. I heard this before the Crash in 2008 and I knew this would happen. The a-holes who managed our pensions played footsie with Wall Street scum and they put our money in high-risk ventures. Now, that it all turned to you know what, they want to take our pensions away??? Fine, I want every penny I put in over the last 16 years. Every penny.

Wait until the start messing with the firemen. They will have a riot on their hands.

[dana_b]

56. as another poster above suggested

we need to band together. Teachers, firefighters, nurses, etc. I am currently unemployed but would be more than willing to at least support the cause in the street, writing letters, etc.

[Bozita]

28. Calling the "Brightest and Best," paging the "Brightest and Best" ... Have we got a career for you!

There may well be reason to be suspicious of the motives of anyone willing to sign on to this shit.

[bemildred]

29. Not while CEOs rake in billions and screw us all in the bargain. nt

[Mz Pip]

40. Sadly the State has no control

over CEO's salaries or bonuses.

[femrap]

30. Jerry Brown wants this???????????

Isn't fascism fun?

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Just another Democrat who hates public employees

Wish I could say I was surprised.

[femrap]

34. I lived in CA when he was gov....

I never thought he could be so heartless. How can he STEAL their money? Is he trying to renege on the State's contribution? Geez.

[shanti]

51. excuse me

but i live here and jerry brown has always been on the side of public employees!

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. You're excused

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1285391&mesg_id=1289212

[shanti]

50. WHERE

in the article does it say that jerry brown is behind this?? come on! he's one of the good guys!

[femrap]

52. So Jerry is fighting against this?

Maybe things have changed, but teachers used to invest in an Annuity, a very conservative investment. If 'they' are saying that future retirees are going to 'bust the bank,' then it sounds to me as if the State has NOT made its contributions....or the Insurance Companies who manage the Annuities have f*cked up.

That has been the problem in other states....the State did not FUND their side of the deal. This is NEVER discussed.

I've always liked Jerry Brown. Governor Moonbeam....in my day. I know CA is in dire shape, but to blame Teachers is just crazy.

We're going through the same thing here in OH...but we have King John Kasich, a newly elected repugnant, who got SB5 passed in the legislature. We are now collecting signatures to put SB5 on the ballot for this Fall. And OH can NOT RECALL its governor. Even die-hard repugnants hate him. He has overstepped by making teachers, fire personnel, and police the 'rich' enemy.

Thank you for letting me know that Jerry is doing OK. Keep me posted....or I guess I should check in at the CA Forum for news on him.

[KamaAina]

53. It doesn't

the money quote is from Stuart Downs (sic, actually Drown), director of the Little Hoover Commission, a bipartisan watchdog group within state government.

[dana_b]

58. Jerry Brown is in a pickle

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2011/06/californias-budget-deadline-approaches

The Repubs want to overhaul the pension system instead of raise taxes. Brown needs two Repubs from both the assembly and the senate to get the approval for a vote to be presented to the people on the issue of raising taxes. The Repubs, of course, do NOT want taxes raised and therefore will not support the vote. Argh.

[dana_b]

60. As an addendum to my last post

I received a video from Gov. Brown and it looks like he may want this after all. He mentions it in here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SnoAyITHWA

Shit...

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. IOKIYAD

[KingFlorez]

69. What's your point?

What is your point in trying to make out as if there is some sort of double standard here?

Read the facts, we have a budget deficit that needs to be filled and everything has to be on the table. Unlike Republican Governors, it's not all about attacking workers and unions, it's really about the budget.

[amborin]

39. all part of the plan.....

[Horse with no Name]

41. The time is RIGHT for this

Unemployment is up.
The economy is in the tank.
Gas prices are up.
Food prices are up.
People are losing their homes, their jobs, their security.

Sooo...now TPTB have decided that the time is ripe for them to take what you EARNED...counting on the sad state of the country. They are putting the teachers on a national stage to strip them of their benefits...it is a classic "divide and conquer" scheme.

When the economy was booming and teachers chose to elevate their profession by negotiating less wages but more in retirement and other benefits--nary a word was said about that.

I think this is a disgusting move.

I also think it will work.:(

Teachers have been properly demonized, and honestly, TPTB would RATHER seasoned teachers quit. There is no leverage.:(

[Sportsguy]

47. What A Trend

I'm afraid what will be next.

[maxrandb]

48. This is getting rediculous

Isn't the pension "deferred" compensation?

I mean, didn't they at one time come to the teachers and say; "look, instead of increasing your salary, we want you to work for less money now, and we'll incentivize that by having this nice pension program".

Now, they are basically coming to the teachers and saying; "you know what, screw that, we'll just make you work for less money...take it or leave it".

Meanwhile, investments, capital gains and the inheritence of "idiot sons" is taxed at 15%...IF THAT!

Seems thay only a good old fashioned General Strike might get the point across that THIS SHIT MUST STOP!

And all of you ass-hats with 401k's better watch the "eff out". They'll be coming for those next!

[Avant Guardian]

49. Republicans are attempting to steal every cent that ever existed

And every cent that will ever exist.

[Major Hogwash]

57. Go to the feds and get some bailout money Jerry!!

Those teachers worked for their pensions, they deserve to get what they were promised!!

[bobburgster]

62. This "blame it on the public employees" crap is getting out of hand.

I just don't understand why John/Jane Q Public can not see this hypocrisy for what it is. The more they make us scramble to survive, the less time or energy we'll be able to muster to fight the destruction of America as we know it. I honestly feel the only thing that will save us would be massive demonstrations like what is going on in the Middle East.

[Broderick]

70. I have been saying Wisconsin is a distraction

look around!!!!!!!!!!