JFK Foretold His Assassination

[Octafish]

Historian Robert Dallek said Jacqueline told him the President discussed it with her.

John F Kennedy made ominous legacy prediction a year before assassination

John F Kennedy said a year before he was assassinated that if he were killed, his legacy would be protected.

By Barney Henderson
The Telegraph (London)
6:33PM BST 02 Jun 2011

The president made the ominous prediction following the Cuban Missile Crisis, after he had successfully negotiated the peaceful withdrawal of Russian missiles from the island with Nikita Khrushchev, the Soviet leader, in November 1962.

"(JFK) said to Mrs Kennedy after his success in the Cuban Missile Crisis: 'If anyone's going to kill me, it should happen now,"' said Professor Robert Dallek, who has examined unreleased audio interviews with Jackie Kennedy, the former first lady.

SNIP...

Prof Dallek said Kennedy had previously been told by the historian David Herbert Donald that Abraham Lincoln's reputation may not have been as great had he lived long enough to become embroiled in domestic politics.

"At that lecture, Kennedy asked Professor Donald if Lincoln had lived, would his reputation be as great as it currently is in the United States? And predictably, Donald said probably not because he would have had to have wrestled with the problems of reconstruction, the post Civil War era," he said.

CONTINUED...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8553200/John-F-Kennedy-made-ominous-legacy-prediction-a-year-before-assassination.html

JFK was living in a pressure cooker. Almost all his senior advisors counseled war during the Cuban Missile Crisis and every other opportunity. JFK was pretty much alone in pushing for peace.

[Ohio Joe]

1. Thats quite the stretch there

None of it sounds anything like predicting his own assassination.

[Octafish]

4. We may find out. Tape transcripts to be released in the near future.

Here's more on Dallek's interview of Jaqueline:

President John F Kennedy predicted his own assassination

Previously unreleased interviews reveal premonition

By MOLLY MULDOON, IrishCentral Staff Writer
June 3, 2011

EXCERPT...

“He had heard a lecture at the White House by distinguished historian David Herbert Donald, a Lincoln, Civil War expert,” Prof. Dallek said.

“At that lecture, Kennedy asked Professor Donald if Lincoln had lived, would his reputation be as great as it currently is in the United States? And predictably, Donald said probably not because he would have had to have wrestled with the problems of reconstruction, the post Civil War era.

“And Kennedy remembering that said to Mrs Kennedy after his success in the Cuban Missile Crisis, he said if anyone’s going to kill me, it should happen now.

SNIP...

After his death, his wife gave seven undisclosed interviews during which she spoke about her husband’s involvement in the Cuban Missille Crisis; her role as First Lady; the presidents plan for a second term and family and married life in the White House.

To mark the 50 anniversary of the Kennedy administration, the family are realeasing both the interview transcripts and the original audio recordings.

SOURCE:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/President-John-F-Kennedy-predicted-his-own-assassination-123115643.html

Hadn't seen this story in U.S. papers. Have you?

[Ohio Joe]

7. umm... The site you linked to appears to be American

Regardless, this does not seem to be a very big story. It tries to grab you with a sensational headline and then does not deliver on the claim made in the headline... Not even close. Though the story does contain some interesting historical tid bits, I don't see anything that should be considered anything beyond that.

[Octafish]

9. Is that a problem?

As a Kennedy Democrat, I think it's interesting. I look forward to reading the transcripts.

[Ohio Joe]

10. No but maybe using a non-bullshit link might be preferable

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-20066247-10391698.html

or

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/life-and-times-of-a-young-republican/2011/05/abc-to-air-never-before-heard-tapes-of-jackie-kennedy.html

or any of the tons of others that decided not to pull shit out of thin air to sensationalize it.

http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&cf=all&ncl=dmRlfJDG8mYZuhMdNKpFbhbSZMsjM

[Octafish]

11. As far as I know, The Telegraph is not ''bullshit.'' And nowhere did I ''sensationalize it.''

Thank you for finding the additional articles.

[Ohio Joe]

12. When they make a claim in the headline that is untrue in the story, it's bullshit

It is also called sometimes sensationalizing.

[Octafish]

14. JFK said: 'if anyone’s going to kill me, it should happen now.' in regards to Cuban Missile Crisis.

And thank you for sharing your opinion.

[Ohio Joe]

16. Which is not a prediction of his assassination... a year later

It was said in context of having his legacy assured.

[Octafish]

27. JFK brought up the subject with his war buddy, Paul Fay, Jr.

One of JFK's friends, Paul Fay, Jr., wrote in his book "The Pleasure of His Company" about JFK and his thoughts on Fletcher Knebel's "Seven Days in May" in 1962.

JFK, FDR and 'Seven Days in May'

By Lisa Pease
February 24, 2009

EXCERPT...

The next day, Kennedy discussed the plot with friends, who wanted to know if Kennedy felt such a scenario was possible. Bear in mind this was after the Bay of Pigs but before the Cuban Missile Crisis.

"It's possible," Kennedy acknowledged. "It could happen in this country, but the conditions would have to be just right. If, for example, the country had a young President, and he had a Bay of Pigs, there would be a certain uneasiness.

“Maybe the military would do a little criticizing behind his back, but this would be written off as the usual military dissatisfaction with civilian control. Then if there were another Bay of Pigs, the reaction of the country would be, 'Is he too young and inexperienced?'

“The military would almost feel that it was their patriotic obligation to stand ready to preserve the integrity of the nation, and only God knows just what segment of democracy they would be defending if they overthrew the elected establishment."

After a moment, Kennedy continued. "Then, if there were a third Bay of Pigs, it could happen."

CONTINUED...

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/022409a.html

President Kennedy was a man of peace. For that, he may've been considered a threat to national security.

[Ohio Joe]

45. So you stand by the "JFK was psychic" non-sense

Does that make what happened in Texas suicide? I mean... he knew what was going to happen. The fucking woo gets worse by the day, a psychic JFK that marched willing to his death. I can't wait to see the next pile of woo because they keep getting funnier and funnier.

[Octafish]

46. That's not what I said or what Dallek reported.

To make you happy, the article should have said "President Kennedy expressed thoughts on his possible assassination." JFK was speaking in reference to his actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis. These are things we have just learned, thanks to the historian revealing his interviews with the president's widow made in 1964.

What happened during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962? JFK kept the peace. He found a way to keep the peace when almost all of his top military and civilian advisors counseled war -- even if it meant starting a nuclear exchange with the Soviet Union.

One last thing: There's nothing funny about the assassination of President Kennedy.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

57. There is much to learn about the assassination of President Kennedy.

What do you think about the tapes?

Speak of diversions, that is the subject of this thread, sduderstadt.

[SDuderstadt]

58. I think your subject line is blatantly false...

as others have pointed out.

[Octafish]

59. Too bad. It's an important topic.

Here's why:

Jackie speaks: Mrs Kennedy reveals her memories of Camelot in never-before-heard tapes left to her daughter

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 3:18 PM on 26th May 2011

EXCERPT...

When Jackie died in 1994 without leaving behind any memoirs, the world believed her insights into their life together during his presidency were lost forever.
In fact, in 1964 she chose to record seven interviews with late historian Arthur M. Schlesinger, which she sealed and said were not to be opened until the time was right.

Her daughter, Caroline, has now released the tapes, which will be condensed and broadcast by ABC in several television and radio shows starting in September.

Ms Kennedy said: 'My mother took very seriously the obligation to preserve and document the history of my father's administration - and these interviews are the result.'

CONTINUED... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391135/Jackie-speaks-Mrs-Kennedy-reveals-memories-Camelot-heard-tapes-left-daughter.html

So, apart from the title, anything to add, sduderstadt?

EDIT to remove: More...'Space has lost its glamour': New tapes reveal how JFK fretted over selling Apollo moon mission to U.S. public
First Lady of Bling: Michelle shines at U.S. party attended by David Beckham, Colin Firth and JK Rowling

[SDuderstadt]

60. Nope...

I think you pretty much precluded meaningful discussion with your deceptive subject line, dude.

[Octafish]

61. On the tapes, Jackie states JFK told her: 'If anyone’s going to kill me, it should happen now.'

"(JFK) said to Mrs Kennedy after his success in the Cuban Missile Crisis: 'If anyone's going to kill me, it should happen now,"' said Professor Robert Dallek, who has examined unreleased audio interviews with Jackie Kennedy, the former first lady.

SOURCE: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8553200/John-F-Kennedy-made-ominous-legacy-prediction-a-year-before-assassination.html

President Kennedy solved the Cuban Missile Crisis peacefully. He evidently felt that was a threat to certain quarters.

[SDuderstadt]

62. That isn't...

"foretelling" his assassination, dude.

That's actuslly an example of you committing the "Texas Sharpshooter" fallacy.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

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[johnnie]

67. Forget it

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[ergot]

136. Considering that at the time, 1 out of every 10 of our presidents had been assassinated,

I would have been astounded if Kennedy or any other president had NOT discussed the possibility and its ramifications.

[H2O Man]

47. In my opinion,

there is at least one other, documented example of JFK talking about the possibility that he would be assassinated in the near future. He was both serious and humorous in discussing it. My father used to tell me about it, and I definitely have a solid book that documents this. However, one-half of my library has been moved upstairs, and one-half of my body is now allowing me to navigate stairs this morning. (grin) Hell to get old.

It wasn't that JFK was "psychic," at all. He was, rather, able to discern the level of threats which the Secret Service were taking very seriously. Hence, JFK's infamous quote about someone in a tall building with a rifle ....

The bit from after the missile crisis is a wonderful example of the dark humor of the Irish. It can only be understood in that context.

(By the way, on another topic: Rubin is bed-ridden, in tough shape after an auto-wreck .... very similar to the one that left me unable to do stairs .... but we will be on the road, hopefully, by the end of the year. Talked with him twice yesterday.)

[Octafish]

93. President Kennedy knew what he was up against.

Oliver Stone talked about it in his review of "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters" by James Douglass.

...Kennedy himself said, in 1962, after he read Seven Days in May, which is about a military coup in the United States, that if he had another Bay of Pigs, the same thing could happen to him. Well, he did have another "Bay of Pigs"; he had several. And I think Kennedy prophesied his own death with those words...

Please extend my best wishes to The Hurricane. He is an example of perseverance in the face of evil and the capacity for good of the human spirit.

[SDuderstadt]

94. After all the gross errors in the movie...

"JFK", I frankly don't understand why you regard Oliver Stone as a credible source on much of anything.

[Octafish]

95. What 'gross errors' are in Stone's review of Douglass, sduderstadt?

Care to name them?

[Name removed]

96. Deleted sub-thread

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[awoke_in_2003]

66. look at the noun-verb disagreement...

and misspelled "released". In the cut-and-paste you are responding to. I wouldn't take the source seriously, either.

[brettdale]

88. I guess faux news wont be reporting this

No change there.

[spin]

2. Kennedy also wasn't in favor of expanding our involvement in the Vietnam war ...

President Kennedy had long regarded the war as South Vietnam 's alone to win or lose. He therefore resisted the relentless pressure for sending U.S. combat troops, but, critically important, he never called for a total withdrawal. American advisers, he hoped, would improve South Vietnam 's fighting performance to the extent that it could bring the insurgency under control. By the spring of 1962 he sought to roll back the U.S. military involvement to the less provocative advisory level he had inherited when first taking office.
http://hnn.us/articles/3446.html

[Octafish]

5. Papers reveal JFK efforts on Vietnam

History that's only been revealed in the last few years:

Papers reveal JFK efforts on Vietnam

By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff
Boston Globe June 6, 2005

EXCERPT...

But the documents, which came from the archives of then-Assistant Secretary of State W. Averell Harriman and the communist government in Warsaw, demonstrate that Kennedy and the Soviets were looking for common ground.

They also shed new light on Galbraith's role. The Harvard economist was on friendly terms with India's prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, and a close confidant of Kennedy's. Galbraith sent numerous telegrams to the president warning about the risks of greater military intervention.

Galbraith told the Globe last week that he and Kennedy discussed the war in Vietnam at a farm in rural Virginia in early April 1962, where Galbraith handed the president a two-page plan to use India as an emissary for peace negotiations.

Records show that McNamara and the military brass quickly criticized the proposal. An April 14 Pentagon memo to Kennedy said that ''a reversal of US policy could have disastrous effects, not only upon our relationship with South Vietnam, but with the rest of our Asian and other allies as well."

Nevertheless, Kennedy later told Harriman to instruct Galbraith to pursue the channel through M. J. Desai, then India's foreign secretary. At the time, the United States had only 1,500 military advisers in South Vietnam.

CONTINUED...

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/06/papers_reveal_jfk_efforts_on_vietnam

Are you familiar with the work of John M. Newman, author of JFK and Vietnam?

[spin]

26. That was a very interesting interview... Thanks.

I remember in the early stages of our military involvement in Vietnam (after the Kennedy assignation) reading an article in the Saturday Evening Post which discussed how the developing war in Vietnam would allow us to test our equipment against Russian equipment. The military industrial complex was licking its chops in anticipation.

[leveymg]

50. What did JFK say about, "What about after a third Bay of Pigs"? Vietnam would be seen as the 3rd

great "failure of American resolve to confront Communist aggression", in some circles. Yes, in the context of Kennedy's back-channel peace moves, a diplomatic Vietnam resolution could well have been the "3rd Strike, You're Out", as far as some of the more extreme Cold Warriors were concerned.

I've always been a bit leery of the Oliver-Stone/Fletcher Prouty theory about Vietnam withdrawal as motive for the assassination. Moves to withdraw from Vietnam, in itself, does not seem sufficient cause to assassinate the President. But, in the context of Kennedy's repeated back-channel approaches to Moscow, which may have been viewed as treacherous -- and the previous strikes against him (Bay of Pigs, refusal to launch air strikes during the Cuban Missile Crisis) seen as treasonous by the same parties, that assassination motive theory makes more sense than it once seemed to. None of the three strikes would have been adequate cause, but in aggregate these decisions may have provided sufficient reason to kill him to some minds.

Worth considering. Thanks for this post.

[DJ13]

3. Hadnt Kennedy begun to end the Federal Reserve's control over our currency?

[Octafish]

8. Don't know much about that. I do know he tried to reign in Wall Street and Big Business...

Professor Donald Gibson detailed the issues in his 1994 book, Battling Wall Street: The Kennedy Presidency.

From the book:

"What (J.F.K. tried) to do with everything from global investment patterns to tax breaks for individuals was to re-shape laws and policies so that the power of property and the search for profit would not end up destroying rather than creating economic prosperity for the country."

-- Donald Gibson, Battling Wall Street. The Kennedy Presidency

More on the book, by two great Americans:

"Gibson captures what I believe to be the most essential and enduring aspect of the Kennedy presidency. He not only sets the historical record straight, but his work speaks volumes against today's burgeoning cynicism and in support of the vision, ideal, and practical reality embodied in the presidency of John F. Kennedy - that every one of us can make a difference." -- Rep. Henry B. Gonzalez, Chair, House Committee on Banking, Finance, and Urban Affairs

"Professor Gibson has written a unique and important book. It is undoubtedly the most complete and profound analysis of the economic policies of President Kennedy. From here on in, anyone who states that Kennedy was timid or status quo or traditional in that field will immediately reveal himself ignorant of Battling Wall Street. It is that convincing." -- James DiEugenio, author, Destiny Betrayed. JFK, Cuba, and the Garrison Case --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Please let us know about JFK and the Fed. I'll also look for info.

[JackRiddler]

19. It's a myth...

He had $5 billion in silver-backed certificates issued, something that had been done before and presented no challenge to private banking. (Which is what the Federal Reserve in reality is: a quasi-governmental consortium of banks that hold shares and sway very much in proportion to their size. A governmentalized private lobby. But anyway...)

A lot of your Federal Reserve heads have turned that into the idea that he was out ultimately to abolish it. Not the scholars, though... you can find an article by G. Edward Griffin explaining why the story is bullshit.

No.

What JFK challenged -- at least in their perception -- was the power and perogatives of the Pentagon and the intel agencies, the national security state or deep state that had arisen since World War II and its own Cold War myths. How serious was this from a man who had campaigned on the fictional missile gap? I think relatively serious, given that the right-wing mentality in this country sees Communists even in reliable imperialists like Clinton or an Obama, even nowadays. JFK went a lot further than that. He suffered from the belief that he was actually the president. He refused to go all-in on the Bay of Pigs operation. He stood down his own generals who wanted to go to war over the Cuban missiles. The documents and best scholarship today leave no doubt he didn't want to send combat troops to Vietnam, and the crunch in that crisis had arrived just a few weeks before Dallas. The key Vietnam escalation was arranged (largely through deception) and executed entirely by the machinations of LBJ. He may not have been a secret hippie peacenik communist, but in the eyes of a paranoid spy and military establishment and the right wing, he could have been seen as such. (Chomsky makes the mistake of looking at JFK from the perspective of Chomsky, rather than from that of dedicated hyper-paranoid MIC cold warriors who were seriously contemplating commies under the bed and imminent nuclear fucking war.) Furthermore, the case is overwhelming that Oswald was involved in military intel, the CIA fake defector program, and with CIA covert ops veterans in New Orleans. The cover-up of the Warren Commission ultimately was conducted by the CIA chief he fired (Dulles) and establishment kingpin McCloy, who set the line in those investigations. It was from these circles that the plot came and these circles were the only ones in a position to conduct a successful cover-up.

[zappaman]

21. "Furthermore, the case is overwhelming that Oswald was involved in military intel..."

"Furthermore, the case is overwhelming that Oswald was involved in military intel, the CIA fake defector program, and with CIA covert ops veterans in New Orleans. The cover-up of the Warren Commission ultimately was conducted by the CIA chief he fired (Dulles) and establishment kingpin McCloy, who set the line in those investigations. It was from these circles that the plot came and these circles were the only ones in a position to conduct a successful cover-up. "

Bullshit.
No need for a cover-up when the assassin was apprehended.
Try again.

[JackRiddler]

24. Why should I try to wake a man who only pretends to be sleeping?

Back then, "defectors" to the USSR who had previously been assigned to the top-secret U2 base, when they suddenly decided to return, were always just rubber-stamped through the embassy and given a fresh passport. It was your typical US openness to declared communists who had renounced their citizenship.

You're a smart guy, I'm sure you can do your own reading.

Thanks for correctly quoting what I already wrote.

[Ignis]

33. That's quite the cutting refutation of all points presented!

:eyes:

[zappaman]

35. well, if you want refutation

you could actually read the 10s of thousands of pages of the Warren Commission or the 1400 pages in Bugliosi's book.
But, you probably did that already, right?

[Ignis]

38. And if I said "yes," O sage, what then?

:dunce:

[zappaman]

42. I'd say...

now you know Lee Haevey Oswald killed JFK all by himself.
So, we agree!

[H2O Man]

49. I've read Vince's book.

Every page, including the footnotes. It's a wonderful book, and he presents his case in a powerful manner. Being familiar with the investigation, though, it's easy to point out a serious weakness in his presentation.

I've also read large sections of the WR. Admittedly, not all of it. However, familiarity with the case allows any person the ability to recognize that, for example, various intelligence agencies hid information from the commission -- and as significant parts of these records have since become public, this is beyond question. Hence, their report is flawed, by definition.

Just one example -- one that Bugliosi did not want to deal with -- is that two of JFK's top aides/closest friends were very close in line to JFK's car. They both heard, and saw, that at least one shot came from behind the fence on the infamous grassy knoll.

The FBI pressured one of the two to knowingly and willingly lie to the Warren Commission, for "the good of the country." The other was not interviewed by the WC.

An objective person can certainly find flaws with the WC's report.

[johnnie]

68. Vince was so off base on the Manson thing

It's hard to take him seriously on the JFK thing. I'm TRYING to read his JFK book, but he is one of the worst writers that I have ever read. He is also wrong on so many things in that book that it's hard to think of him as a serious author.

[SDuderstadt]

69. If he is...

"so wrong on so many things", perhaps you could cite some examples, dude.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted sub-thread

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[zappaman]

70. "He is also wrong on so many things in that book"

Citing one or two would be helpful.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted sub-thread

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[JackRiddler]

100. Here is a link to Jim DeEugenio's 10-part point-by-point obliteration of everything in Bugliosi's

highly unethical and embarrassing double-brick-thick ode to the Warren Commission.

http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html

& far more crisply written than Vince... or the dreadful Posner, yesteryear's official Coup D'Etat denialist, whom Vince has recycled at double the length and even less the excuses.

[zappaman]

101. wow! that's some nitpicking!

blah blah blah.
you can nitpick all you want.
'WHAAAA...he didn't deal with this one witness who said she saw a gunman in a blimp'.
The evidence all points to one human being and has held up for close to 50 years.
There is no evidence pointing to anything else unless you COMPLETELY ignore the physical evidence from the crime scene, which every CTer does.
It's a tired argument.
Call me when you have the evidence that could stand up in a court of law that convicts the CIA, or FBI, or secret service, or doctors, or Cuba, or Johnson, or Dallas PD, or Russia, or the mafia, or the military industrial complex, or big oil, or my grandma.
I'm more than willing to listen.

[JackRiddler]

104. Pathetic.

It would take a couple of hours to read Jim DiEugenio's review, which doesn't mean you can't immediately throw up some prechewed fifth-grader invective of no relevance to anything he writes.

[zappaman]

116. took me less than a couple of hours

and, like I said, it's nitpicking.
sad that CTers cling to whatever tiny bit of coincidence they can to deny mountains of evidence that point one way.
talk about pathetic...

[JackRiddler]

130. Frank Zappa would give you a serious beatdown for discrediting his name.

[zappaman]

131. met him twice

once a nice conversation late night just the two of us.
he didn't hurt me.
but he'd certainly laugh at you.

[JackRiddler]

132. Did you ask him whether it was true that he was a friend and supporter of Mae Brussel's?

I'm not satisfied with the state of the evidence for that claim, however. Maybe you can help.

What do you figure the guy who said this saw in events like the JFK assassination?

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."
— Frank Zappa

Anyway, the thing about someone like Zappa is, he met thousands of people a year, and none of them can speak for him any more.

By the way, I appreciate the chances you give to remind anyone that might be reading to actually inform themselves about issues like JFK, and follow this link:

http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html

Oh, and how about this one?

"Government is the Entertainment division of the military-industrial complex."
— Frank Zappa

[zappaman]

138. One thing he would do is read Bugliosi's book

since he had an open mind.
but, go ahead, rely on DiEugenio to tell you about the book.
By the way, I appreciate the chances you give to remind anyone that might be reading to actually inform themselves about issues like JFK in regards to DiEugenio, and follow this link:

http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html

[JackRiddler]

139. I've read a dozen books on the JFK assassination.

That includes the Warren Commission's own one-volume version and the execrable Posner, the required "must read" of the denialists of 17 years ago. That Bugliosi would still be re-warming the corpse of the lone gunman mythology at a time when the country that came out of the 1963 coup has become so demented and murderous in its evolution since the coup is a disservice to history.

As all lives are too short there's no obligation to put away 2000+ pages (with CD notes) of Bugliosi to have an opinion about one of the most debated and researched subjects in all literature (literally MILLIONS of pages have been written about it). I suppose if I read another 2000 out of the world's many millions of books, Bugliosi's is likely to be one of them.

Your technique of requiring a new piece of pro-Warren Commission homework sounds a bit like what you complain about with "conspiracy theorists" and their constantly new claims. It sounds like you wave Vince's brick around like a bible for a proposition that was rendered intellectually bankrupt the minute Ruby stepped up to Oswald with his gun, and that the whole world outside the bubble of the self-brainwashed Americans has always known to be bunk. What about you? Do you get your caricatures of "conspiracy theory" from John Hankey and Alex Jones? Or have you read John Newman? Jim Douglass? Garrison, even? I doubt sincerely you've even managed Bugliosi, from the quality of your posts.

[JackRiddler]

133. Of course it did, if you weren't interested in anything other than labeling it as shit.

Readers who actually want to learn about the JFK assassination, rather than trade invective on a combat board, can go here:

http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_review.html

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

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[H2O Man]

73. Respectfully disagree.

While the Manson case was not limited to the "Helter Skelter" bit, that was an important dynamic.

I think Bugliosi is an outstanding author. To each, his/her own, I guess. But he has definitely authored some powerful, popular books ... on the theft of the 2000 election, for example, I believe his book is the very best.

It's worth noting that Mr. Bugliosi actually worked on a case that showed a very real conspiracy in the assassination of JFK's brother, Robert. While I disagree with him on JFK's murder, I found his book a thoughtful work. Of course, I would spank him in a debate, as he well knows.

[SDuderstadt]

74. I doubt very highly that...

you would "spank" Bugliosi in a debate.

[H2O Man]

75. oh

gosh

[johnnie]

76. Vince has a pretty good track record

Anytime anyone gets one over on him he shuts the debate down. He was a brilliant prosecutor at one time, he has become a joke.

[H2O Man]

77. Valid point.

Mr. Bugliosi has shown a nasty temper in recent years, in the context of debate. It is not an attractive attribute. He has demonstrated a habit of attacking his opposition as individuals, rather than focusing on issues. I attribute this to age and health issues.

[SDuderstadt]

79. I don't think it's "temper"...

at all.

I think it's just that, like many of us, he gets frustrated when the debunked CT nonsense of nearly 50 years gets rebunked over and over.

[johnnie]

81. He was once a brilliant attorney

He has become a bitter creep who gets angry at anyone with an opposing view of his. His JFK book is weird, he digs on anyone who doesn't believe in the "lone nut" theory on every other page. He doesn't have that "fire" he had back in the day, he is just an old man with nothing to do but complain.

[SDuderstadt]

83. Actually...

he gets justifiably frustrated with conspiracists peddling the same debunked nonsense for nearly fifty years.

[johnnie]

84. He gets justifiably frustrated with anyone who confronts him

Vince is a megalomaniac. Of course that has helped him to be a great prosecutor, but it also makes him to be a bit of a freak.

[SDuderstadt]

86. Then, refute his facts and engage in less...

character assassination, dude.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[micraphone]

89. JFK net has an iteresting page on the Fed...

"On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business. The Christian Law Fellowship has exhaustively researched this matter through the Federal Register and Library of Congress. We can now safely conclude that this Executive Order has never been repealed, amended, or superceded by any subsequent Executive Order. In simple terms, it is still valid."

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/thefederalreserve.htm

[SDuderstadt]

90. That is absolute nonsense....

but that's what you get for relying upon conspiracist websites.

http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/flaherty/flaherty9.html

[micraphone]

91. Conspiracy ? Nonsense?

"E.O. 11110 was never reversed by President Lyndon B. Johnson and remained on the books until President Ronald Reagan issued Executive Order 12608 on September 9, 1987 as part of a general clean-up of executive orders. E.O. 12608 specifically revoked the sections added by E.O. 11110 which effectively revoked the entire Order. By this time, however, the remaining legislative authority behind E.O. 11110 had been repealed by Congress when Pub.L. 97-258 was passed in 1982.

In March 1964, Secretary of the Treasury C. Douglas Dillon halted redemption of silver certificates for silver dollars. In the 1970s, large numbers of the remaining silver dollars in the mint vaults were sold to the collecting public for collector value. All redemption in silver ceased on June 24, 1968."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11110

Which part of this EO is "conspiracy theory" or "nonsense"?

Dude.

[SDuderstadt]

92. Umm...

this part:

On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business.

It's RW anti-Fed CT nonsense.

[Skink]

6. Kennedy levied a tax on capitol outflows.

something like 15 percent.

[Octafish]

13. Interesting subject. Here's a public exchange of letters b/ JFK and David Rockefeller.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-U0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=JFK+capital+outflow&source=bl&ots=T7_j7jgXyY&sig=orBYT0dk9KRYQr41uD2SIG_9gKM&hl=en&ei=DYTpTa-uJuH30gHWzfyUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=JFK%20capital%20outflow&f=false

Fascinating insights on both men.

[Old and In the Way]

15. I've often wondered how this country's history would have changed, had he not been assassinated

and won re-election.

Maybe VietNam doesn't become the geopolitical mess that took 50,000 American lives. Maybe Nixon never gets to run his dirty wars in South America and cocaine doesn't get run wholesale into the US. Ford never gets the nod for POTUS, so Cheney/Rumsfield never get their corrupt hands on Executive power. Bush doesn't become head of the CIA and start double dealing with the Sauds for Big Oil's and his own financial benefit. Reagan remains in Hollywood to live out his days as a "B" actor, hawking GE products. Bush the Dimmer never gets the legacy boost to run for governor, so he's not a factor in the 2000 campaign and doesn't get the chance to disregard the warnings - 9/11 and his trillion dollar GWOT and trillion dollar taxcuts never happen.

The divergent road in American history really started on that day in Dallas in 1963...I can only imagine how this country's past 48 year of history could have been so fundamentally different.

[zappaman]

17. So true

I agree that all of those are good, possible "maybes".
Sucks that all it took was a miscreant with a rifle to alter this nation's course.
We haven't seen the likes of a JFK since and America is all the worse for it.

[Octafish]

52. The University of Virginia hosted a panel of scholars who discussed that question...

Vietnam If Kennedy Had Lived.

Marc Selverstone, James G. Blight, and Janet M. Lang were the speakers. In the Q&A, Selverstone was asked about his research regarding the question of withdrawal from Vietnam and he stated the record indicates JFK had instituted policies for a withdrawal and would have followed through with his plans.

Getting to the most important point you raised, Old and In the Way, the nation has not been the same since November 22, 1963. As you indicated, things would be very different. From civil rights to being first to the moon, much progress is owed to the administration of President Kennedy. And, "thanks" to conservative leadership, we've lost much of that through a near continuous state of war and policies that benefit the rich at the expense of everyone else.

Somehow, those of us who've lived those 48 years can see it so very clearly.

[hootinholler]

18. Que the usual suspects.

:popcorn:

-Hoot

[Octafish]

53. The evidence is there under Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

SOURCE: http://www.military-network.com/main_ucmj/subchapterx.html#888.88


FTR: Here's what LeMay and the other JCS big wigs had to say, regarding President Kennedy:

Once Kennedy and his other advisors left the policy leaders meeting on October 19, 1962, General LeMay and the other military leaders stayed behind. Not realizing they were being secretly recorded, they told what they truly thought about President Kennedy. (pp. 639-640)

Book Excerpt
Audio Clip 9, pp. 639-640

"I think that a blockade, and political talk, would be considered by a lot of our friends and neutrals as being a pretty weak response to this," LeMay said a few minutes later. "And I'm sure a lot of our own citizens would feel that way too." One of the great tenets of American democracy is that the military stays out of politics, but LeMay was lecturing the president about the supposed feelings of the American people.

"In other words, you're in a pretty bad fix at the present time," LeMay concluded.

"What did you say?" Kennedy asked, perhaps not quite believing what he was hearing.

"You're in a pretty bad fix."

"You're in with me," the president said, his words punctuated by an ironic laughter. There was no one in the room who understood as deeply as Kennedy did that he was indeed in a "pretty bad fix," part of which was military leaders like LeMay with their restless fingers on the nuclear button. When the meeting ended, several of the Joint Chiefs stayed behind to talk among themselves.

"You pulled the rug right out from under him," said General David Shoup, the Marine Corps commandant. "Goddamn."

"Jesus Christ!" LeMay laughed. "What the hell do you mean?"

"I agree with that answer, agree a hundred percent, a hundred percent," Shoup exclaimed. There was anger in his voice that suggested the wrathful vitriol that might greet the president if he did not proceed militarily. "Somebody's got to keep them from doing the goddamn thing piecemeal!"

"That's right," LeMay exclaimed. As he and his colleagues saw it, their planes, missiles, and ships were being held back, hostage to what they considered the compromising palaver of a mere politician.

"You're screwed, screwed, screwed," Shoup said. "Some goddamn thing, some way, that they either do the son of a bitch and do it right and quite friggin' around… You got to go in and take out the goddamn thing that's going to stop you from doing your job."

SOURCE: http://www.kennedymen.com/tapes/audio_09.asp

To me, a guy who seen a demerit or two in his time, that sounds like contempt.

[murphyj87]

20. Kennedy said:

"If anyone wants to do it, no amount of protection is enough. All a man needs is a willingness to trade his life for mine." So observed President John F.Kennedy less than a month before his words came tragically true.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,954702,00.html

[zappaman]

22. I just predicted that someday I will die.

I am psychic too!!!

[femrap]

25. die, yes.....

murdered?

READ, sucker.

[Ignis]

30. That's not exactly the same thing, is it?

:eyes:

[zappaman]

36. pretty much, yeah n/t

[Ignis]

39. I suppose even "I will be shot in the head in Texas" wouldn't be enough, would it?

So noted.

[zappaman]

40. he said that?

if so, then yes, he was psychic.
musing about one's death, especially when you're a world leader, is hardly "foreseeing his assassination".

[Ignis]

41. So JFK was simply another "world leader," eh?

No especially controversial policies that might make powerful people mad?

:shrug:

OK.

[zappaman]

43. yes, he was a world leader.

and, like every world leader he had controversial policies that might make powerful people mad.
you don't think he was a world leader?

:shrug:

OK.

[defendandprotect]

23. We need a new peace-keeper in the White House -- 80% of the public want end to the wars!!

[SidDithers]

28. I foretell that this thread ends up in the dungeon...nt

Sid

[Ignis]

31. Would that be the Magic Bullet dungeon?

Or the "I ♥ the Warren Commission" dungeon?

[IScreamSundays]

85. That is exactly the place. nt

[SDuderstadt]

87. "Magic bullet"

LOL!

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

135. If I had seen this post two days ago I would have predicted you would be wrong.

And I would have been right.

[Ignis]

29. K&R

He knew the stakes of the game, and he soldiered on anyway. That's courage. :patriot:

[Octafish]

134. Irregardless of his personal safety, JFK did the bravest of things -- he stood for peace.

Even if it meant talking with an "enemy." And even if it meant knowing one's life was in danger for doing so from one's "friends."

Kennedy Sought Dialogue with Cuba

Oval Office Tape Reveals Strategy to hold clandestine Meeting in Havana; Documents record role of ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard as secret intermediary in Rapprochement effort

Of course, we don't hear anything at all about that on ABDNNBCBSFixedNutNoiseworks.

[RainDog]

32. it doesn't seem like he foretold his assassination

he said that "if" someone were going to kill him - which is always a threat to a head of state - it should happen at the moment when he had achieved a foreign policy victory and had stared down the USSR and won.

that's all - he was looking at this as a politician who thought his actions had elevated him to statesman (a view with which I agree.)

he talked about possible peace with the USSR, too - that would've been quite a coup if he had been able to end the cold war in the 1960s - we would've all been living in a better world - one without a republican president in sight.

[Initech]

34. Sometimes I wonder if that "business plot" actually succeeded.

[leveymg]

51. And, that Joe Kennedy, Sr. was part of it, or the wider circle of American fascist sympathizers?

Interesting that the dynasties that dominated both American political parties for decades came out of the same circle of Nazi sympathizers. Read Kessler's "Sins of the Fathers" about Joe, Sr. and Loftus and Aaron about Prescott Bush.

A really, really striking coincidence there.

[Octafish]

114. Difference is Joseph Kennedy, Sr. lost a son fighting the NAZIs.

Joseph Patrick Kennedy, Jr.

Still, thanks for the heads-up on Kessler. Speaking of NAZIs, did you see the Brits have released some important files, re ODESSA?

MI5 bugged leading intellectuals and journalists in 1950s, files show

By Richard Norton-Taylor
The Guardian, Monday 4 April 2011

EXCERPT...

Nazis' nasty surprises

SNIP...

The Nazi leadership also planned to plant sleeper agents around the world after the war to provoke global unrest and create a "Fourth Reich", the files disclose.

Olivier Mordrelle, a leader of a separatist nationalist movement in Brittany, told his interrogators after he was captured that "ample funds" had been transferred to South America and "trustworthy key men" had been sent to live in Spain and Switzerland.

Mordrelle said he attended a meeting in Deisenhofen, near Munich, in April 1945 at which German postwar resistance plans were discussed.

He said he was told by a senior SS officer that underground agents were to lie low after the war ended until they were told to organise anti-Bolshevik movements in their countries in order to "stir up unrest culminating in civil war".

CONTINUED...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/04/mi5-files-released-intellectuals-journalists-bronowski

They're my Number One suspect in Dallas -- the little Übermenschen are everywhere.

[SDuderstadt]

115. I knew it!

JFK was killed because he was a Bolshevik!


Wait...what?

[Octafish]

126. Why do you spend so much time on this thread, sduderstadt?

And why have you failed to add anything of substance? -- apart from your opinion, that is.

[SDuderstadt]

127. How do you add anything of substance to a...

false OP, dude?

Have you read through the responses? Another swing and a miss.

[Octafish]

128. Responses from you? Your chums?

How uniform.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Unawriter]

37. And the wingnuts claim only Muslims are interested in martyrdom!

:rofl:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

44. I wonder if we will ever find out what Jackie was really like.

She made John F. Kennedy Jr. (John-John to us old people) go to law school.

he said he wanted to go to Hollywood and be an actor.

Now that is a damn shame, if you ask most of the women in this country. They said he had his daddy's charisma and didn't know what to do with it.
He would have been an amazing leading man in the movies.

[Blasphemer]

48. I think that was sensible of her

He could have easily pursued an acting career after finishing school if that's what he really wanted. I always got the impression that JFK, Jr. never really had a clear sense of exactly what he wanted to do with his life. He was carrying around the huge burden of his father's legacy and while he wanted to carve out a niche for himself, I am sure he felt a responsibility to his father's memory. I think his magazine was his way of continuing the family legacy but doing it on his own terms. I never thought that he would have ended up in politics but when Caroline considered it (something, I never thought would happen), I started to re-think that. Perhaps he would have.

[roamer65]

54. This I say to everyone. JFK saved the world in October 1962.

Just about everyone around Kennedy wanted an invasion of Cuba. However, Russian missiles were already set up and ready to go along with battlefield nukes. The Soviet Union definitely would have used them. John Kennedy found a way to resolve the crisis without provoking a nuclear exchange. He brought us back from the brink of extinction. His well thought manuvering of the crisis also opened the door to back channel negotiations with Khrushchev and there were elements in this country that did not want these negotiations to occur. That is why our "hard line elements" had Kennedy killed in Nov 1963 and the Russian hardliners removed Khrushchev in 1964.

God bless John F Kennedy.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

97. Thank you, roamer65. You are correct: We all owe our existance to JFK for choosing peace.

President Kennedy was under unimaginable pressure: Most everyone in the Cabinet and on the national security council and each of the Joint Chiefs of Staff counseled war -- even if it meant escalating to nuclear war.

Know your BFEE: At every turn, JFK was opposed by War Party

Thanks Be: The right man was in office at the right time -- a Liberal Democrat of vision, a man of peace.

[JVS]

98. That doesn't make any sense for Russia. Brezhnev was the detente guy, not a hardliner to the West

[craigmatic]

82. Actually JFK said that if somebody was going to kill him it would be from far away with a sniper

rifle. He said that on a golf course when the secret service had a bag full of machine guns. He knew they couldn't protect him.

[LanternWaste]

99. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc n/t

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc n/t

[jberryhill]

102. Well, that does it... I've never seen anyone claim JFK was in on the conspiracy

But that explains a lot. It was an elaborate suicide.

[SDuderstadt]

103. And, according to some posters...

Ted Kennedy helped him get away with it.

[jberryhill]

107. Well, it only makes sense

Ted was in on it too. Mary Jo Kopechne was going to spill all the beans.

[Obamanaut]

106. I told Miz O that I will probably be killed on the highway while riding my motorcycle

or bicycle before my 95th birthday. Is this 'fortelling'?

My guess would be that presidents notice that they are surrounded by a security detail, and probably figure out that their lives are in danger on a daily basis, hence the security. I bet even JFK noticed that detail.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SDuderstadt]

109. Boycott!

This tyranny will not stand!

[johnnie]

110. What are you blabbering on about now?

Do you ever have anything coherent to say?

[SDuderstadt]

111. Solidarity...

brother!

I am making signs and working the phones as we speak.

A grave injustice done to you, is a grave injustice done done to all of us. We will strike back. Kinda like NATO. A mutual security pact.

[johnnie]

112. For some reason....

I have a hard time believing you know how to work a phone. I'm actually amazed you can work a computer.

[SDuderstadt]

113. Why, Johnnie!

What a UGLY thing to say! I abhor ugliness. Does this mean we're not friends anymore? If I thought that we could not be friends, I don't think I could bear it!

P.S. What should I do with all these protest signs?

[zappaman]

117. hey johnnie

what page are you one now of Bugliosi's book?
I finished it...finally.
let us know when you get past the foreword, eh?
:rofl:

[johnnie]

118. I have no idea what page I was on

It is such a crappy book I forced my way through some of it and blew it off for now. Vince can't write to save his life. I'll get back to it some day.

[zappaman]

119. haha

so, in other words, you have no problem coming here and criticizing a book you admittedly haven't read.
that's some critical thought you have going on!
what do you mean by "Vince can't write to save his life". Too many big words for you???
:rofl:

[johnnie]

120. I see you are bringing out your brilliant debating skills again

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Get back to me when you have something more intelligent to say other than emoticons.

[SDuderstadt]

121. My irony meter...

just shattered into pieces.

[johnnie]

122. Again?

Your "irony meter" shatters continuously. You better get a new schtick duuuuude, this one is getting old.

[SDuderstadt]

123. I bought the extended warranty...

dude.

[Bonobo]

124. You still believe in the "magic bullet" despite all the testimony against it?

"Joyce Herston says:

I own a magic bullet also. There is a defective part on the base, its the plastic gear. First it cracks and then breaks. Mine broke 30 days after the one year limited warranty. They offered a replacement base for $30 plus $15 shipping. This problem is more widespread than I thought. Amazon.com has the reviews to back this up, also expotv.com, hsn.com, & pricegrabber.com.
Please follow up review, this problem needs exposure.
Consumers are being ripped off, and the customer service for homeland housewares is terrible. I wish something could be done. The part that breaks costs around 50 cents wholesale, consumers should not have to buy a whole base for $45, just for the plastic gear to break again! I do love my magic bullet and wish the company would make the gear out of a sturdier material, then give their customers a free gear!


Bill Nickerson says:

Our Magic Bullet Blender is 4 months old and has stopped working. The contacks must be worn, if one pushes hard enough and keeps trying, sometimes it will make contack and operate.
Anyone know where the Home Page is for the Company that makes them?
I would not pay $45 for a new base, that is $11/month asuming the new one would last 4 monts

[johnnie]

125. You got ripped off

Dude.

[sabrina 1]

137. Keep up the good work, Octafish

Someone famous once said that when the wolves are snapping at your heels, just keep climbing higher.

[suffragette]

140. Very good post

K&R