How are Christian Fundies not Progressives?

[FarLeftFist]

I would say Christian fundamentalists and progressives have a lot in common- opposition to slavery, protection of God's Earth, concern for the poor and weak, dedication to social justice, advancement of equality. It's as if the new breed of Fundies are more like a bizarre cult than actual Bible followers. I'm atheist, but I believe Jesus would definitely have hated Ayn Rand and the current republican/conservative party. Is it possible to re-engage Fundies or is all hope lost? And does it really all come down to the abortion issue that trumps all the rest we do have in common? It's not as if we're pro-abortion, we're PRO-CHOICE! They're the ones (GOP) who would rather ACTUAL human beings die than enjoy the security of universal healthcare. So, who's really "pro-life" now?!

[digonswine]

1. It is about abortion for many-and gay marriage. Automatons all..

[FarLeftFist]

4. It's weird, we have a lot in common...

I guess I'm wondering if anyone thinks it would be possible to get Fundies under our tent. Not that we need them but I guess to believe in such blind faith one would probably vote republican, being they are masters of hypocrisy.

[digonswine]

24. We don't have that single issue-

I talk to and like some of these people-they are so much like us in many things-I know some who would be great dems if not for their faith. They-the ones of whom I speak-have blinders on-yet will tell me that I do. We are missing a large demographic-but without complete falseness on our part, they are lost to the greater hypocrisy of the right. I would feel for them if I respected them bit more.

[Name removed]

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[msongs]

3. If you don't believe our religion you're going to hell. Is that progressive or not? nt

[FarLeftFist]

6. True, but that the strange part...

The Bible teaches tolerance. Its as if these Fundies don't care about the Bible, they have re-visioned it to mean something completely different..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. I don't think that style of ''tolerance'' is actually tolerance.

It's more like, "Don't give up hope, as long as a person is alive you may yet be able to convert them."

[FiveGoodMen]

10. "The Bible teaches tolerance"

It also teaches killing your kid if he doesn't listen.

All depends which section you're reading.

It's the world's biggest, oldest Rorschach test.

[FarLeftFist]

14. Thank You.

I've never read the full bible, but for that matter I've never read any religions bible. I'm more of a facts and truth person, never was one for blind faith.

[FiveGoodMen]

22. I was raised on that book, so...

I figured, word of god and all, I'd read it cover to cover.

Just like many other atheists, I point to that as the beginning of the end of my faith.

Verse by verse, you can find a few nice things there, but it's so full of contradictions and violence and guilt-for-no-reason I just don't buy it anymore.

[Curmudgeoness]

5. Hmmmm, how aren't they progressives?

Your argument makes sense, but we all know that they are so far from progressive that Evil Knevil could not have jumped the gap. It seems that they have left Christ out of the equation and reverted to Old Testament conservatism.

So, make up your mind already----is it Christian or is it Fundie? Because it cannot be both.

[RagAss]

9. Bingo...and if I need the Old Testament interpreted for me, I'll ask a Rabbi !

Not some shit kicker, pulpit pounder who doubles as a Repug "Poll Watcher" !

[FarLeftFist]

13. I guess they are just HUGE hypocrites then.

Being we have a lot more in common with them in the Bible sense then the conservatives do. We have probably 10+ things in common with Fundies, conservatives have about 2, like the poster above mentioned, anti-gay marriage and anti-choice. Yet they choose republicans every time. Maybe they are masochists.

[Curmudgeoness]

15. Do you really think so? I don't see it.

What are the things we have in common with Fundies?

[Name removed]

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[catabryna]

21. Profound... +1 nt

[baldguy]

11. Because Christ wouldn't recognize any of his teachings in their belief system.

[Name removed]

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[Ezlivin]

16. Which fundamentalists have you spoken with?

The reason I ask is that they are not like you described.

I'm a former Southern Baptist fundamentalist.

Fundamentalists do not oppose slavery; the bible does not and they hold a fundamental (read: literal) belief in what it says.

They do not believe in protecting "God's earth"; they are more interested in the return of Jesus. They believe literally in Revelation 21:1 ("Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."). Since there will be a new earth, this one can be ignored.

They do concern themselves with the poor and weak inasmuch as it furthers their ability to convert. Feeding the hungry or clothing the weak is only done as a method to gain access to said people; once access is gained, proselytizing begins. I worked with various ministries and nothing was done unless the "gospel" could be shared.

They are not concerned with social justice—it's not even on their radar. In 15 years of fundamentalist sermons, teachings, seminars and classes the words "social justice" were never uttered.

They are not concerned with the advancement of equality. Actually they adhere to a hierarchy which puts god first, man second and woman third. Women cannot be made equal for they were not created so by the lord god.

Make no mistake: Fundamentalists are not progressive. They are regressive and earnestly wish for Jesus to return so that he might prove their theology right and smite those who oppose them. They support the state of Israel only because it fits into their prophecy concerning the return of Jesus; they really don't care at all for the unconverted Jew.

[wickerwoman]

23. +1 and I would add anti-birth control and anti-women working outside the home.

Also anti-separation of church and state.

It's not like we could adjust our stance on one or two side issues and bring the fundamentalists over.

We lost them when we desegregated and allowed women equality.

I'm not prepared to compromise one iota on either of those achievements for anyone's vote and certainly not for anyone so irrational and ignorant they think humans rode dinosaurs and plate tectonics are a trick from Satan.

[TheKentuckian]

17. On the whole Fundies are Leviticans or Xtians and generally have less biblical knowledge

than the average kat from the Crab Nebula.

What they "know" is reprocessed from hucksters in $3,000 suits and random hearsay with a desire to control the masses and fleece them out of their money like any other traditional Republicans.

Fundies from elsewhere may be knowledgeable about their texts and even those of other faiths but our home grown versions are not inclined to crack books of any sort and revel in willful ignorance.

[no_hypocrisy]

18. The schism of opinion with regard to these issues

Abortion
Prayer in public schools (Lords Prayer and other kinds)
Corporal punishment in public schools
Government funding of religious schools
Religious training in public schools
Religious tests for public office
Religious symbols on government property
Elimination of the Department of Education

[Ozymanithrax]

19. Progressivism isn't a right left thing...

Late 19th and early 20th century progressives came from both sides of the political spectrum. In fact,Teddy Roosevelt and Hoover were progressives while FDR was not a progressive.

The real question is what defines modern progressives and what progressive policies would hold the religious right and the progressive left together in the face of natural animosity concerning other politicies.

[provis99]

20. protecting God's Earth? Exactly the opposite.

Dominionist point to passages that humans shall have dominion over the earth, and exploit it for any purpose they see fit. It's no surprise that fundamentalists are essentially anti-environmentalist, pro-oil, pro-pollution, anti-endangered species, anti-humane society, and a host of other anti-earth stuff.

They sure aren't pro-poor; many funamentalist churches' stock in trade is the "prosperity" movement; how to get more money for yourself at the expense of everybody else.

Equality? Such as sending your kids to segregated religious schools?

Perhaps you are confusing evangelicals with fundamentalists.

[Igel]

29. I've read lots of Chalcedon Foundation stuff.

Rushdoony and North.

The founding fathers, so to speak, of Dominionism. Most of them aren't in favor of the EPA; but they are environmentalists, and believe that anything the current generation does to make the land unusable by their grandkids is immoral and ungodly.

It's easy to read them and take snippets out of context. They believe that the Earth is here to serve man, not the other way around. They're still evironmentalists, not fundamentalist, Puritanical environmentalists.

A lot of people have taken the term "dominionist" and applied it to churches that barely qualify for the term, and many that don't. A number of denominations have taken the term and caused them to become semantically bleached, covering a wide range of practice and belief.

Whether you take the narrow or broad definition, it's still false that all Dominionists hold the beliefs that the stuff you've read says they do. At best, you could say that some dominionists hold those beliefs.

[Jackpine Radical]

25. A lot of traditional progressives were fundamentalists.

William Jennings Bryan comes to mind.

Jim Wallis of Sojourners Magazine is a contemporary example.

I have no quarrel with anyone who comes from a love-based spirituality, and who plays it out to the ends you listed above.

By way of self-disclosure, I sorta identify myself as a pagan/Buddhist.

[sharesunited]

26. They view government as God's competition.

[elocs]

27. Many who call themselves "Christians" will find themselves described as in Mt. 7:22-23.

http://bible.cc/matthew/7-22.htm

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Many of these right wing Christians would be surprised to learn that Jesus was a Liberal: http://liberalslikechrist.org/index.htm

The trouble with "fundamentalists" is that – far from believing and acting on what Jesus surely would have called his "fundamentals", so-called "fundamentalists" have a knack for ignoring most of what was truly important to Jesus, while obsessing about issues about which Jesus said little or nothing.
Although fundamentalists claim to believe in Jesus, it's Paul of Tarsus who is their real guiding star.Rather than being guided by what Jesus said himself, they have latched onto what Paul said about Jesus, as though Jesus lived and died not knowing who he was, and had to be explained to his followers after he was dead and gone.

If Jesus was walking the earth today these particular "Christians" would do to him exactly what was done the first time. To them he would be this homeless and dangerous Socialist Liberal with no valid birth certificate.

[7wo7rees]

28. They had their chance

Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land
Hard working man and brave
He said to the rich, "Give your goods to the poor."
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
Jesus was a man, a carpenter by hand
His followers true and brave
One dirty little coward called Judas Iscariot
Has laid Jesus Christ in his grave
He went to the sick, he went to the poor,
And he went to the hungry and the lame;
Said that the poor would one day win this world,
And so they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
He went to the preacher, he went to the sheriff,
Told them all the same;
Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the Poor,
But they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
When Jesus came to town, the working folks around,
Believed what he did say;
The bankers and the preachers they
nailed him on a cross,
And they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
Poor working people, they follered him around,
Sung and shouted gay;
Cops and the soldiers, they nailed him in the air,
And they nailed Jesus Christ in his grave.
Well the people held their breath when
they heard about his death,
And everybody wondered why;
It was the landlord and the soldiers that he hired.
That nailed Jesus Christ in the sky.
When the love of the poor shall one day turn to hate.
When the patience of the workers gives away
"Would be better for you rich if
you never had been born"
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.
This song was written in New York City
Of rich men, preachers and slaves
Yes, if Jesus was to preach like
he preached in Galillee,
They would lay Jesus Christ in his grave.