So, did Gaddafi use cluster bombs or were those ours?

[EFerrari]

This blogger puts together a case for investigating the claims that these munitions were used by Gaddafi.


The cluster bombing of Misrata: The case against the USA
Posted on May 25, 2011 by HRI Mark

The ongoing HRI investigation of the cluster bombing of Misrata in April 2011 has found convincing evidence the bombing was committed by US naval forces.

The bombing of Misrata

On the 15th April 2011, during the day, sub-munitions of a MAT-120 cluster bomb were shown to Human Rights Watch (HRW) and C.J. Chivers, a journalist for the New York Times, in Misrata. On that evening, during ongoing clashes between rebel and loyalist forces, Human Rights Watch workers witnessed 3 or 4 cluster munitions landing in residential areas of Misrata. HRW attest to further subsequent such bombings.

Civilians were killed in these attacks and the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, condemned:

“The reported repeated use of cluster munitions and heavy weaponry by Libyan government forces in their attempt to regain control of the besieged city of Misrata.”

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/05/25/the-cluster-bombing-of-misrata-the-case-against-the-usa/

[G_j]

1. and where were they made?

haven't had a chance to read the whole thing..

[mwrguy]

3. Spain

[EFerrari]

7. The claim was that they were sold to Libya by Spain

but this article shows that that claim seems to be a misreading of the documents.

[mwrguy]

2. US doesn't use the MAT-120

[indepat]

4. The US doesn't do war crimes/other atrocities nor other international no-nos

:patriot:

[EFerrari]

11. Apparently, we do.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Ak9fJDOOxYKGkufikddM0b6bvZx4?p=US+Advanced+mortar+systems&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701

I couldn't get this page to load, but the cached version did.

http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=US+Advanced+mortar+systems&fr=yfp-t-701&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=US+Advanced+mortar+systems&d=5028101235477081&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=c51f1245,d6046943&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=sxSV2kIXP2bh.toU.ReyLA--

[davepc]

32. Uhm, no we dont.

The MAT-120 and the M120 are two different (yet similar) systems of different manufacture and country of origin.

Though, yes you did find a cache of a page about the M120. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M120_mortar

Good job.

[Distant Observer]

48. Black ops deliberately DO NOT use the munitions "usually" used by regular forces

[Robb]

53. You've seen this on TV I presume.

[LanternWaste]

73. Well... if that's not impeachable evidence, I don't know what is.

Well... if that's not impeachable evidence, I don't know what is. :eyes"

"It's not the stuff we use, so it must have been us..."

[tabatha]

5. Human Rights Watch - the real one

Libya: Cluster Munitions Strike Misrata
Human Rights Watch Witnesses Attack Into Residential Area
April 15, 2011

It's appalling that Libya is using this weapon, especially in a residential area. They pose a huge risk to civilians, both during attacks because of their indiscriminate nature and afterward because of the still-dangerous unexploded duds scattered about.

Steve Goose, arms division director at Human Rights Watch

(New York) - Government forces loyal to the Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, have fired cluster munitions into residential areas in the western city of Misrata, posing a grave risk to civilians, Human Rights Watch said today.

Human Rights Watch observed at least three cluster munitions explode over the el-Shawahda neighborhood in Misrata on the night of April 14, 2011. Researchers inspected the remnants of a cluster submunition and interviewed witnesses to two other apparent cluster munition strikes.

Based on the submunition inspected by Human Rights Watch, first discovered by a reporter from The New York Times, the cluster munition is a Spanish-produced MAT-120 120mm mortar projectile, which opens in mid-air and releases 21 submunitions over a wide area. Upon exploding on contact with an object, each submunition disintegrates into high-velocity fragments to attack people and releases a slug of molten metal to penetrate armored vehicles.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/04/15/libya-cluster-munitions-strike-misrata


Please note - NATO sorties occur at night (there was a rare day excursion in the last few days). If witnesses watched the cluster bombs fall it could only have been from Gaddafi forces during the day.


Please send your report to C.J. Chivers and ask him to critique it. I would love to read his response, as he is one of the more credible journalists and knows his stuff.

[EFerrari]

8. CJ Chivers is one of the most hawkish reporters on this story

and the blogger made no claim to be HRW.

But, that's a good suggestion. I think I will put the question to Chivers on Tuesday.

[bhikkhu]

6. That's idiotic

the only conceivable reason why the US would cluster-bomb civilians in Misrata and then blame Gadhafi is to impugn Gadhafi's reputation and make a case for an escalation of the war. There has been no escalation, nor any inclination toward escalation, and Gadhafi has no reputation to impugn that I am aware of, except as a murderous dictator.

[EFerrari]

9. How is going from enforcing a no fly zone to bombing Tripoli

not an escalation?

[bhikkhu]

15. If you read the UN resolution, its a little broader that no-fly

Which involves, first, targeting anti-aircraft and radar facilities, and the command-and-control centers that coordinate those facilities.

In any case, if you are predisposed to think that Gadhafi is fine and NATO is wrong, it doesn't matter what the resolution said or how NATO has enforced it.

[EFerrari]

17. So, are you saying there has been no escalation or that the UN resolution

allows for escalation?

[bhikkhu]

19. It doesn't seem like there is any escalation

and the activity and intent of NATO seems no different than it was on the first day of action. The US is more on the sidelines than at first, but that's also in keeping with what Obama promised, as far as the limits of our involvement.

[EFerrari]

20. CIA has been on the ground since the early days of the demonstrations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/world/africa/31intel.html

This action was sold to us as a no fly zone enforcement that would take days.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/libya-crisis-obama-moammar-gadhafi-ultimatum/story?id=13164938

But I suppose if you are pre-disposed to rationalize any escalation, there has been no escalation.

[bhikkhu]

28. The CIA are always there - thats a given

As far as daily missions, dedicated hardware, people involved, etc, there's probably less now than in the first few days.

[EFerrari]

29. On what are you basing that conclusion?

[bhikkhu]

36. On what are you basing the question? The OP is idiotic.

I suspect you respond to every statement with some question or some unrelated comment that requires answer, and that kicks the thread up again. "Good numbers" might be the goal, as in maximizing pages views, but nevertheless its an idiotic OP. The US didn't cluster bomb Misrata.

[EFerrari]

49. Did you bother to read the OP? I don't think so.

But thanks for the kick.

[Distant Observer]

39. Someone completely OBLIVIOUS to the facts -- All key supplies in Tripoli has been bombed

All normal commercial and civic activity is at a standstill. The society has been destroyed.

[leeroysphitz]

10. Let's not start splitting hairs... n/t

[PufPuf23]

12. We know from the start that the cluster bombs came from NATO, the USA, or Israel

regardless of who used the weapons.

[EFerrari]

13. I don't think I follow you. n/t

[PufPuf23]

22. Else where in this thread, Spain (NATO) was identified as the source of the cluster bombs.

Cluster bombs are manufactured and used or provided by the Western allies.

Qaddafi joined "WOT" post 9-11 and had access to western arms.

What instance do you know where cluster bombers were used except by NATO, USA, or Israel except where the munitions have been provided as military aid to "allies" or former "allies".

The "foes" do not even tend to have the delivery systems operative much less the cluster bomb munitions.

Then NATO and the USA do not use IEDs or suicide bombers.

We have similar sensitivities about many topics EF. Best.

[provis99]

25. you're missing the point.

Cluster bombs are illegal under international law. If the US is making cluster bombs and selling them to other countries, then the US is guilty of a war crime.

[PufPuf23]

27. I know that cluster bombs are illegal under international law.

So is white phosphorus.

The fact is that cluster bombs are manufactured and used by Western nations and, even when used by "foes", they have been obtained through NATO and other USA allies or former allies.

I would rather this not be true.

Post 2003, France and Italy were the biggest arms dealers to Gadaffi.

[hack89]

43. These bombs were sold before Spain ratified the CCM

Spain destroyed their stockpiles and stopped selling them. Libya has not ratified the CCM.

[hack89]

44. Certain types of cluster bombs are legal under the CCM

The treaty allows certain types of weapons with submunitions that do not have the indiscriminate area effects or pose the same unexploded ordnance risks as cluster munitions. Permitted weapons must contain less than ten submunitions, and each must weigh more than 4 kilograms (8.8 lb), and each submunition must have the capability to detect and engage a single target object and contain electronic self-destruct and self-deactivation mechanisms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions

[EFerrari]

26. Thanks. Just wanted to make sure I understood

what you were saying.

[Distant Observer]

41. We know from the start that the WAR IS A RACKET. The whole intervention is based on deception

so why not cluster bomb story is also a lie.

All the antecedents re use of cluster weapons point back to the good old USA -- either used by, planted by, supplied by ..

[MilesColtrane]

14. I'd give the blogger's conjecture more weight if s/he wasn't anonymous.

Identifying who is doing the investigating and writing is a start toward finding out if someone's stated agenda lines up with their actual agenda.

[EFerrari]

16. You have a point. On the other hand

it reduces us to just looking at the case presented.

The weapons stuff makes my eyes glaze over so I was hoping someone here could speak to those specifics. Also, HRW politicized Libya in the American press weeks before the cluster bomb story and that made me uncomfortable when they came out so strongly on this story. That and Al Jazeera's adopting of the rebel's flag as their story graphic. It hasn't been easy to decipher what is going on without feeling massively handled.

[Distant Observer]

40. He(she) may like having a life and livelihood (job). One dares not openly say

what is obvious to many.

[Hannah Bell]

18. kr

[EFerrari]

21. I have to go and attend to family for a while.

If anyone can shed some light, pro or con, that would be appreciated. I'll check back in later this evening. Thanx.

[ellisonz]

23. Not convincing. Entirely circumstantial.

The claim the author is going at is that US Special Forces fired them from small boats and without any proof.

[Distant Observer]

38. All the claims were just that -- except initially to rationalize ruthlessly killing pro-Gov forces

[davepc]

46. No, see it's crystal clear.

The Finnish and Sweedish Navy have a boat that has a weapon system on it that can fire that specific round.

The US Navy bought a few of those boats (though no evidence that they bought the optional gun turret for them)

In an interview a Navy SPECWAR guy said the weapon system was pretty neat. Therefore it is crystal clear obvious that the was the actions of the US Navy.

I mean, what more proof do you need then that?!

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

51. Those cluster bombs got there somehow

and there's no evidence Gaddafi bought them. Of the two countries, the US is the one with the most recent track record of using those weapons, in Yemen. It's not like Obama hasn't used them before.

[hack89]

58. But America has never used a 120mm mortar cluster munition

120mm mortars are short range weapons - just how the hell did US forces get close enough to fire Spanish mortar shells in Libya? And why?

[EFerrari]

65. It has been reported already that CIA was on the ground

since the early days of the demmonstrations, if not from the very beginning. Do you know who was there with them or what equipment they had?

[hack89]

66. 120mm mortars are big and heavy

not your standard spook gear. The Libyan army, on the other hand, has plenty of 120mm mortars.

"When you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras."

[EFerrari]

67. I'll take that as a "no". n/t

[hack89]

68. I know as much as you do, the difference being

my ignorance acts as a brake on uninformed speculation.

You have no evidence that the US fired those shells. There is plenty of evidence that the army not only has plenty 120mm mortars but is enthusiastically trying to kill civilians. Do you have any reason to believe that they would not use their mortars to kill civilians? And if that is the case, why does the CIA have to execute a false flag operation - there is plenty of evidence of atrocities already. And why cluster bombs - we aren't going to condemn their use since we use them liberally so how does such an incident help the US?

[davepc]

70. 120mm mortars are not man portable

The tubes alone weigh hundreds of pounds.

[EFerrari]

71. Why would they have to be?

Wasn't Gaddafi our friend until he wasn't? Didn't we have access until very recently? Do you think CIA looked at the demonstrations and suddenly decided to go to Libya with their backpacks?

[xchrom]

24. Recommend

[bluestate10]

30. Gaddafi's upper brass are bailing on him. There are job openings there. nt

[dionysus]

33. +100000

[EFerrari]

35. And how does that relate to the OP? Thanks.

[dionysus]

31. you're embarrassing yourself.

[EFerrari]

34. I take your criticism for what it's worth.

:)

[Distant Observer]

37. Once a "Presidential Finding" is approved for an operation any hope of separating truth from lies

goes out the window.

In Libya, the principal operations are "black ops" -- information and military. So the average person
will never know what is really happening unless the company and special forces make a big blunder.

[hack89]

42. They were Qaddafi's

we don't use MAT-120 120mm mortar cluster munitions. Libya is known to have purchased them.

[Distant Observer]

47. Apparently the Libya "purchase" story cannot be confirmed -- seems invented

[hack89]

56. The entire story is invented

considering the US does not use MAT-120 shells nor do we fire mortars from small boats. Have you considered that Libya bought the shells on the black market? I think it more likely that Spain did in fact sell the shells to Libya - it makes more sense than the nonsense suggested in the OP.

[EFerrari]

52. Nope and nope. I linked up thread to a weapons manufacturer

that sells them to us and you've read what it says about the Spanish claim in the OP, I assume.

[hack89]

54. You confused M120 with MAT-120

not the same.

these are the mortar rounds the US uses:

* M929 Smoke Cartridge
* XM930 Illumination Round
* XM930E1 Illumination Round
* XM931 Practice Round
* M933 High Explosive Round
* M934 High Explosive Round
* M934A1 High Explosive Round
* XM983 Illumination Round

[EFerrari]

55. What were the cluster bombs we used in Yemen?

[hack89]

57. I don't know - we have a wide selection to choose from

but we don't use MAT-120 shells - why is that so hard to accept?

[EFerrari]

62. I don't need to accept it. I need to find out if it's true.

[hack89]

63. Let me know when you have it figured out. nt

[EFerrari]

64. I have emails out to people who know more about weapons than I do

(which is pretty much nothing at all). If I hear back, I will.

[hack89]

59. It was BLU-97 from a Tomahawk missile.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0607/US-cluster-bombs-in-Yemen-The-right-weapon-in-Al-Qaeda-fight

[Distant Observer]

60. Why would covert OPS deliberately defeat their goal by using weapons that would give

the gig away. This is just ridiculous.

[hack89]

61. Why wouldn't they use a shell known to be used by Libya?

Why would covert OPS deliberately defeat their goal by using weapons that would give the gig away? This is just ridiculous.

[madokie]

45. If the story is true about the cluster bombs

I would rather thank that they came from us but during one of the years a bush was in the white house. Probably about the same time as the contra's were being armed by the reagon/bush goons, North, Negroponte, those traitors.

[EFerrari]

50. A lot of those people are still around.

Negroponte is one of Hillary's advisors on Latin America, for example. Too bad we don't empty and fumigate the State Department and the Pentagon after every election.

[madokie]

69. negroponte is a piece of work

shoulda' been jailed years ago. He introduces the Iraqi to the battery powered electric drill torture that they were finding bodies with evidence of shortly after bushco sent him over there.

[EFerrari]

72. And he was given the power to issue FCC waivers under Shrub.

A real piece of work.