French Women 'Stunned' By Public Misogyny Following DSK's Arrest

[sufrommich]

"We do not know what happened in New York on Saturday May 14, but we know what has been happening in France in the past week. We are witnessing a sudden rise of sexist and reactionary reflexes, so quick to surface among part of the French elite," the groups said in a statement on the website of Le Monde.

Organised by groups including "Osez le feminisme" and "La Barbe", the petition was signed by more than a 1,000 women, including TV journalist Audrey Pulvar, whose partner Arnaud Montebourg is bidding to be the Socialist candidate next year.

"There is a certain impunity in France when it comes to this kind of uninhibited sexism," the groups said.

The groups said that 75,000 women were raped in France every year and that sexist language in public tended to minimise the gravity of crime, turning it into a vague and more or less acceptable act.

The groups referred to specific statements, including one by former culture minister and Strauss-Kahn ally Jack Lang, who said Strauss-Kahn should have been released on bail earlier, considering that "nobody has died".

Journalist Jean-François Kahn, no relation, denied rape had taken place and dismissed the affair as "troussage de domestique", a phrase that evokes a master having non-consensual sex with a servant.

A friend of Strauss-Kahn and his journalist wife Anne Sinclair, Kahn later apologized for the remark.

"This kind of language generates an intolerable confusion between sexual freedom and violence towards women. Violent acts, rape, attempted rape and harassment are all the mark of men's desire to dominate women's bodies," the feminist groups said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/21/dsk-arrest-misogyny_n_865146.html

[Liberal_in_LA]

1. At least this story is initiating public conversations about the issues

[seabeyond]

2. 10% of rape is reported, leaving 90% of rape not reported, .....

reading an article last night discussing "75,000 women were raped in France every year and that sexist language in public tended to minimise the gravity of crime"
that statistic was also included.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1149874&mesg_id=1151704

[Odin2005]

3. That article shocked and horrified me.

[seabeyond]

4. that article and all the rest that were provided in the thread did not surprise me at all.

and really, though i hear what you are saying, i really doubt it surprised you either considering you had already stated there was a problem in that country

though

i will give you, that ya.... 90% not reported, ya ok, that is high. i would ahve never thought ONLY 10% of rape is reported.

true

[joshcryer]

8. Yes, you tend to be very reasonable / level headed, your response was uncharacteristic.

I understand now.

[Odin2005]

32. I have a friend who was raped, so such stuff tends to get me worked up.

[sufrommich]

5. Wow. It's 1959 over there. nt

[seabeyond]

6. i am sayin... nt

[joshcryer]

7. Seems like it.

France ranks lower than Russia on the gender gap. Ranking lower than Russia on anything should give one pause, and question the motives of anyone defending such insanity.

[krabigirl]

21. have you ever been there? Just curious.

[seabeyond]

25. i am LISTENING to the women in france. i am seeing the statistics in france.

do you want to argue with the women and the statistics? go for it. it is all yours

[joshcryer]

26. Nope, simply "going somewhere" doesn't tell you very much.

Even living somewhere for weeks won't tell you much. It takes years to have direct experience of a situation. Or you can read what people in the social sciences have to say and form your own conclusion. A bit dull, perhaps, but far quicker than having to spend a lifetime somewhere before being "allowed" to express ones opinion.

France ranks 46 on the gender gap issue. It's far far below any western state. That is pretty fucked up.

[joshcryer]

29. link to gender gap report:

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2010.pdf

This was published in Dec. and is as recent as they come.

[Hannah Bell]

52. yeah, & that paragon of women's equality, ireland, = no. 6.

while lesotho & philippines = 8 & 9.

i'd rather be a woman in france than in lesotho (42% unemployment, 55% poverty) or philippines (40% poverty).

israel, btw, is 52.

as for russia, women in russia were integrated into academics, sciences, the trades, politics etc earlier than women in the us. and that part of the culture didn't disappear in the counter-revolution, even though a lot of the wages did.

[leftynyc]

60. And Venezuela is 64

What's your point about Israel?

[Hannah Bell]

95. uh -- that josh's gender survey doesn't measure anything useful?

did you read the post, or do you just knee-jerk at any mention of israel?

[leftynyc]

103. Yes, I read everything

and my question stands.

[Hannah Bell]

108. um -- because it's an obviously developed country in which women have full rights

& which was once governed by a female pm -- but has a lower score on this dubious survey than france?

which to me points up what i said -- that josh's gender survey doesn't measure anything useful.

[whathehell]

63. My understanding of women in the Soviet Union was that

although women were indeed "integrated into academics, sciences, the trades..etc".and all the other fields men worked in,

they were still never treated as "equals" in that they were, on top of their professional duties,

expected to keep their traditional female duties regarding housework and childcare at the same time.

Another practice that was, and I suspect still is prevalent in Eastern Europe, is the practice of wife beating.

There was a saying in Eastern Europe that if a husband failed to beat his wife, the neighbors talk.


http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/egm/vaw_legislation_2008/expertpapers/EGMGPLVAW%20Paper%20(Cheryl%20Thomas).pdf

[Hannah Bell]

94. which is different from the us how (except for the specious traditional 'saying')?

[whathehell]

104. Sorry if I've touched a nerve...

but I don't accept the traditional 'saying'

as necessarily "specious" and I'm afraid that

makes a huge difference.

[Hannah Bell]

109. being as i can pick out any number of "traditional sayings" in europe/us which don't

encapsulate modern practice, i'd say it's specious to cite a "saying" without any detail or context.

particular such a "saying" alleged to be common to all of "eastern europe".

the only nerve you touched is my frustration with people who think this kind of crappy "evidence" means diddly.

[whathehell]

110. "being as you can"....knock yourself out.

You didn't mind slamming the Irish without attribution,

why not other parts of the world:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

112. The difference being, my remark about ireland is in the context of josh's claim

that his little survey represents some kind of 'last word' about women's equality in france.

the survey that places ireland, lesotho & philippines in the top 10 & france & israel 40 places lower.

there is no shortage of anecdotal "evidence" for wife-beating or other inequalities in ireland, lesotho or philippines similar to what's being mustered to "prove" that france is a particularly egregious example.

which is the point of my post -- skepticism toward such claims. your post is one mustering that anecdotal evidence to "prove" france is a worse place for women than other westernized, modernized countries.

[whathehell]

113. I guess you're getting confused about your "opponents" on this issue, lol

"your post is one mustering that anecdotal evidence to "prove" france is a worse place for women than other westernized, modernized countries".

Re-read it...My post didn't say a word about France. :rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

114. russia. whatever. all such "lists" are essentially fraudulent, in service of political ends.

[whathehell]

115. Yeah, sure.

Whatever you say, comrade.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

117. red-baiting.

[krabigirl]

19. no, it isn't.

[JackRiddler]

85. Do you really want to use this as a point in nationalist pride?

You can find reasons to state that it's 1959 everywhere.

[sufrommich]

91. What is nationalist about an era? nt

[JackRiddler]

92. Please, the implication is clear...

"It's like 1959 over there." Over there implies "not here." And whose 1959 is it? The default without clarification is going to be the United States' 1959, which means the US is no longer "in 1959."

Misogyny and sexism and caste treatment of women are global realities with different expressions everywhere. French society should be criticized for its own specific expressions of it, but without finding cause for other places to feel superior or smug about their own situations.

[seabeyond]

93. prior to these articles

we were told, this is the woman we should want to be. a diss on a whole nation of people from france did not merit your disapproval. what was it, lots of "places to feel superior or smug about their own"

when all this first started, if we even questioned their misogynist behaviors we were accused of french haters.

i caught the 1959 comment suggesting a submissive role. i saw nothing nationalistic to it. the poster says that was not her intent. yet still, you refuse to accept what she says.

lots of sit down and shut up going on.

[JackRiddler]

101. Spinny-spin-spin.

Have you got enough booby-traps in there?

[seabeyond]

102. .

depends on the amount of hypocrisy you wish to spew.

[joshcryer]

9. +1, good thread.

Just kicked it to respond to some ambivalent response...

[seabeyond]

14. very informative. i have bookmarked for future. people are shying from actually listening to the

french people, well women, that live it. they do not want to hear.

my hubby is going thru a bet of shock himself. he admired the "freedom", of course

a mans wet dream.... lol, ok, i say this in love, lol. a bet of teasing.

no

that was a good thread adn you all did well providing articles to educate

[joshcryer]

16. I admit I have a "thing" for French girls. It's making me question why.

If there's some latent machoism that makes me want a submissive highly "liberated" (see: oppressed) type of girl. Hard to accept but I bet there's something to it.

[seabeyond]

18. wow...

bah hahahah, not laughing at but with you

isnt that interesting and possibly, nothing to be whatever about, but interesting none the less. lol

thanks for sharing

talking to oldest son yesterday about passive aggressive. told him, i have never been passive about a single moment of my aggressiveness, lol

ya know

we are, what we are.

[joshcryer]

22. Hey I like to think there's not that, but this is making me question it, no doubt!

We can never be fully introspective of ourselves so if there's some underlying thing it has to be exposed. And you, seabeyond, are quite good at doing it. :hi:

So maybe there is, maybe there isn't. What geeky guy wouldn't fall for Amelie, though. ;)

[seabeyond]

30. i think what tipped me off a couple decades ago was becoming such good friends with two foriegn

exchange students and later in college a couple people from england and wales.

i could not believe the difference in perspective of being female. i was so thrilled i was in the u.s. and raised by two parents that allowed me to be... be as my brothers, be as a person.

(i think my dad is a bet sorry now, lol)

[krabigirl]

20. Well, you haven't met many French girls then. Most are pretty feminist, and not..

like your dream stereotype. Sorry to disappoint you.

[joshcryer]

23. Well that's certainly the impression I've had for years, that they were liberated feminists.

But as we can see feminism in France is hardly like that in the United States.

[polmaven]

58. Perhaps, if you have a thing for "girls"

then there is something to it,unless you would call any male over 18 years of age a "boy".

[Hannah Bell]

99. lol. hoist on his own petard

[Odin2005]

33. One DUer has said that when she was over there she was told not to look at mens' eyes.

Apparently over there that is an "invitation" to fuck you. :puke:

[seabeyond]

37. wow.... and over here, i make eye contact and wont let go... saying

fuck you, lol and not in the humpin way.

wow. interesting.

[tblue37]

43. When I was in France several times in the 1970s, I was appalled at the

liberties some men took with women's bodies in public--women they did not know (like me!). They would grab my breasts or bottom or rub up against me in subways or in stores, but when I responded angrily, others in the vicinity would turn against me, as though I had somehow violated an accepted rule by daring to make an issue of it. When I spoke with other women in our study-abroad group, they said they also had experienced such behavior and the same sort of reaction from other people when they dared to make an issue of it.

But my wonderful son-in-law is French, and he has none of that sort of attitude or behavior about him, so I wonder whether such benighted attitudes might be limited to certain subgroups--like thse who are accustomed to privilege, and perhaps also those who feel they are not enjoying the privileges they should have.

[Hannah Bell]

53. i looked into plenty of men's eyes in france. none of them tried to hump me.

none of the experts here are saying anything that remotely resembles any experience i had in 6 months in france. not with french men or french women. of any variety, & that includes experiences with moroccan & algerian residents.

[PVnRT]

79. Anecdote != Data

[Hannah Bell]

97. i understand that; however, my anecdotes is no less worthy than the other anecdotes being offered

here in evidence, some of them second-hand.

why didn't you tell those posters that anecdotes aren't data?

[PVnRT]

78. That's even worse than the U.S.

I believe a third get reported in this country, although only about half result in convictions.

[seabeyond]

10. this is what du has been advocating what i, a woman, should be.

As for the lived experience of being female, it sounds like hard work, even as described by women who say they love it. Thomasine Jammot, a cross-cultural trainer (who teaches traveling business people how they might overcome cultural misinterpretation, on their own or someone else’s part), said that she does not feel discriminated against, nor objectified.

“There is a permanent ode to women in France,” she said. “We are loved very well.”

However, she added: “There are many things you can’t do, as a woman, in France. You can’t be coarse or vulgar, or drink too much, or smoke in the street. I would never help myself to wine.”

“How would you get more wine?” I asked, baffled.

“At the end of an evening, I might shake my glass at my husband, but no, I would never touch the bottle,” she said.



http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2011/03/28/2003499289

another of many interesting articles. it goes on to talk about how the man decides a woman should dress, act and behave and i gotta tell you, i am just not dominated enough to feel the need to put the time and effort and hard work and money into being female. i earned the right at birth. nothing to prove.

this

is what i am told by du

is the ultimate in womens rights and something i should admire and cotton to. otherwise

i am a prude. all of america, is puritanical. not that sex isnt everywhere. not that everyone isnt doing it. not that france has a position we dont know about. just cause

it is not a mans world

prude, another word chosen by men to throw at women that wont cow to their dominance by attacking a womans sexual behavior

pissed

[joshcryer]

12. Heart ya seabeyond.

Keep up the good fight. :hug:

[seabeyond]

15. i am going to get "unmad" again, soon. lol. ah ha

and back atcha.

:hi:

[sufrommich]

17. Another eye opener. Thanks, seabeyond. nt

[krabigirl]

24. Yeah, well I have spent a lot of time there and haven't noticed anything like that.

However, I don't hang out with the elites, so maybe it's different in their circles. Also, as a foreigner, I certainly never gave a second thought to helping myself with wine, nor would I ever want my husband to be in control of how much I drink.

My two sisters-in-law think I am crazy for staying home with my kids, btw. They think it's a throwback to the fifties...very few women over there stay home anymore, they think it is pretty much "giving in" to the patriarchy or something like that.

[sufrommich]

27. So the pay gaps, under reported rapes, lack of female

politicians are all lies?

[Hannah Bell]

55. Female french parlimentarians = about the same % as female american congresspersons.

In most OECD countries though, women hold under a quarter and the shares are 15% or less in Japan, Italy, France and the United States.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/45/63/37964630.pdf

[seabeyond]

28. people actually believe racism has been "cured" in the u.s. but most of us know we need to still

battle it.

[Odin2005]

34. WOW!

:wow:

[shoutinfreud]

49. huh?

Every french woman I know is the exact opposite of that description, sounds like some woman from the upper class.

[Hannah Bell]

54. you can't smoke in the street? or drink too much wine? lol. bullshit.

[PassingFair]

72. The smoking in the street thing is real...

When I was young.....in my mid twenties...
I went to France to meet up with a guy I'd
met in Chicago.

He INSISTED that I not smoke when we were
walking around Paris, and I INSISTED that
I would do what I damn please.

He embarrassedly told me that people would
think he was with a hooker if I smoked while
walking. That I could smoke at cafes and in
the car, but that people would think I was
a street walker if I smoked on the sidewalk.

I told him he was exaggerating and lit up.
He took me by the elbow, over to a policeman (gendarme)
and asked the guy what I looked like, with the
cigarette dangling out of my lips, and the cop said,
in one word that I could understand clearly:
"Prostitute".

:rofl:

I still smoked though.......

[seabeyond]

76. wow... i say to you, lol. wowl

ah ha. ha ha ha. to come up against that. i would not do so well, either.

really?

still a chuckle.

controlling womans behavior, dress, telling them smoking is a hooker

how the hell did they get away with calling us prudes all these years.

[PassingFair]

82. I guess in Paris, smoking while walking is a "signal"...

(A smoke signal?)

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

84. ha ha ha. nt

[Hannah Bell]

98. must have been prostitutes i saw smoking in the street then.

[whathehell]

106. "A permanent ode to women in France", Lol

Elsewhere it's called "the pedestal" and it's the same old romanticized male dominance.

However, she added: “There are many things you can’t do, as a woman, in France. You can’t be coarse or vulgar, or drink too much, or smoke in the street. I would never help myself to wine.”

They can have their "ode"...I'll take freedom.:eyes:

[Skidmore]

11. Some DUers have been stunned by it too and others

have adopted the "troussage de domestique" defense.

[G_j]

13. K&R

:thumbsup:

[JackDragna]

31. I've always been puzzled by this..

..in many ways, the French are far more progressive than we are. Is there anyone here versed enough in French culture to explain why they tolerate these kinds of views?

[Odin2005]

35. They are a Latin culture, which tend to be quite sexist.

[geek tragedy]

36. They are more progressive in the same sense that Larry Flynt

was more progressive than Jerry Falwell. Just different expressions of the same male supremacism.

Plus, the French don't believe that powerful men should have to play by the same rules as commoners--goes back to Napoleon.

[LooseWilly]

50. Napoleon WAS a commoner... just FYI

[closeupready]

68. Clearly, in one sense, the French are not as progressive on gender equality issues as we are.

nt

[wickerwoman]

111. The Catholic church is still pretty strong in France.

A really good movie, if you haven't seen it, is "Ma Vie En Rose". It's about a French family that moves to a conservative suburb and get completely ostracized because one of their kids likes to crossdress.

It draws a good contrast between the progressive younger couple and their older very Catholic neighbors. The older wife refuses to wear her hemline above the knee because "my husband wouldn't like it". Meanwhile her husband scopes all the younger more attractive women.

I suspect the same is true in France as in America- some people are very liberal and some people (who get a lot of press) are retrograde embarrassments.

[yellowcanine]

38. This is why DSK's lawyer has to be very careful about trashing the woman's reputation.

There will be a big public backlash against DSK if the lawyer gets too aggressive. If the case for consensual sex is too difficult to make the lawyer would be better off convincing DSK to cop a plea. I wouldn't be surprised if plea bargaining is already going on.

[G_j]

39. **

[ZombieHorde]

40. Do people still think the burqa ban was about liberating women?

I don't. I think the motivation was more sinister.

[blondeatlast]

41. It seems as if you are correct and I always thought so as well. Really interesting read

in link 20.

[joshcryer]

47. I was ambivilant about it before but it is definitely something to consider.

Philosophically of course I am against bans of all stripes (as long as people have free speech and free association). But I do admit that I only posted in one burqa ban post my entire stay on DU.

[Hannah Bell]

56. that's the spin at du.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. That was straight up islamaphobia. Nt

[tblue37]

42. Wow. This is appalling:

"a master having non-consensual sex with a servant"--as though that isn't rape!

[ismnotwasm]

44. Stunned. Really.

While I, an American woman am not shocked at all. In fact, I would have been "stunned" by any other outcome. is this article implying that the misogynist response is not as common or, rather, not as completely expected in France? I'm going to have ask a couple of friends from there, but French feminism has a powerful powerful background and and continues to influence feminists around the world.

Now are they Pissed? Well hell yes, *I'm* pissed. Many women whether they claim title to the word feminist as I do or not, are pissed.

"Angry French Feminists" does not add up to "stunned" French women.

[seabeyond]

45. i would be curious

if you know women i france, what they have to say.

[ismnotwasm]

46. I'll let you know

I don't know too many, but a couple. One I'm thinking about isn't from France himself, his Mom is. I see him quite often. He very knowledgeable about a variety of topics and he's very interesting-- a devoutly Christian Gay man--he and I talk about all kinds of things. His Mom is very nice.

[BlueMTexpat]

48. The misogynist attitude is more prevalent among older French

men ... and women. Younger generations have benefited mightily from French feminism and the situation is improving, although it is true that rape is a crime that is still too often regarded as a "he said, she said" situation and that it was somehow the victim's fault, not the perpetrator's.

Many governmental policies such as subsidizing births and public day care facilities have benefited women, although the original intent of those policies was not so much to benefit women per se as to increase the birth rate following WWII. While women can still be sexually harassed in the workplace - some men still do not "get" it, although watchdog groups and some recent TV series and documentaries are raising consciousness to help lessen this somewhat - at least women are not forced into a "mommy" track or forced to stay in jobs they hate rather than stay home with their young children because otherwise they will lose their health insurance. Their jobs are held open for them while they are pregnant and there are generous maternity, paternity and family leave policies - as well as good retirement and ample vacation time.

Here is another article along the same theme that I would suggest people read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/22/dominique-strauss-kahn-arrest-dormant-anger-france-women

And here is a comment which shares the same viewpoint and sentiments as the OP and the article I linked to, but may help to explain (in the final two paras) some of the indignation the DSK court appearance has caused on the east side of The Pond: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/23/game-only-one-side-plays-strauss-kahn

On balance, from one who lives next door to France, in many ways, our French sisters are still treated better than we are. Where they aren't, they are working on improvements. Do not doubt that for a moment.

[SemperEadem]

51. Monsieur Kahn--"troussage de domestique" IS rape

non consensual sex IS sex without the permission or CONSENT of the woman and THAT, monsieur, is rape.

or, if you can't understand that:

non des relations sexuelles consensuelles EST sexe sans l'autorisation ou le consentement de la femme et que, monsieur, c'est le viol.

[lunatica]

57. I knew not ALL of France was stunned and confused by our reaction to rape

[Kind of Blue]

59. KnR! It's about fricking time.

Been waiting for this for almost 30years. Never in my wildest imagination did I think it would take an international incident for feminist voices over there to be heard, but I guess it had to be. Lord knows the rampant and too casual harassment I, too, experienced there, is so ingrained that it was an insult and going way to far for me to tell a man off.
Even a specific coined phrase for non-consensual sex for these particular incidents - it is absolutely disgusting.

[Nye Bevan]

61. DSK genuinely thought that what he was doing was not that bad. Only "troussage de domestique"!

Hopefully a long prison sentence for DSK will help kick France into the 21st century on this issue.

[whathehell]

87. "troussage de domestique" sounds like something that was part of

some hideous colonial or slave mentality...WTF?

[a2liberal]

62. Are we forgetting something?

The guy claims he didn't do it. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why are we even talking about "mitigating" (or not) defenses when he claims that anything that happened was consensual? Was there a trial that I missed? To be honest, I've seen a lot of threads here complaining about "blame the victim" threads, but I haven't seen any of the supposed "blame the victim" threads. I don't think it's fair to the guy to be jumping all over the guy until he has a trial and is convicted or cleared. In all the rush to have the appropriate politically correct "outrage" about the horror that is sexual violence, we seem to have forgotten our principles of trials, innocent until proven guilty, etc. I don't see why the accuser should automatically have so much more legitimacy over the acusee at this stage. After all, it's all "he said, she said" at this point.

[marions ghost]

64. plea bargain time?

1. Re--Reality. In the court of public opinion, the 'horror that is sexual violence' will color every public incident of this kind. Because it is generally condoned while lip service is paid. So I wouldn't expect people not to have opinions. Sexual violence is rampant.

2. Everyone knows how often offenders get off, even with trials. People are less inclined to wait for a verdict when they see the corruption and abuses in our sham of a justice system.

[Kind of Blue]

65. I don't think the OP is about DSK's guilt or innocence.

The article clearly states: We do not know what happened in New York on Saturday May 14, but we know what has been happening in France in the past week. We are witnessing a sudden rise of sexist and reactionary reflexes, so quick to surface among part of the French elite, the groups said in a statement on the website of Le Monde. Particularly the number of unreported rapes and language used to dismiss the alleged victim's case.

I, for one am eager to hear DSK's side. But this incident in the prevailing attitude of the elites that probably trickles down will most definitely generate discussions about how women are treated in that particular culture. There's no stopping that and I think it's good to give voice and attention to the voiceless.

[AngryAmish]

67. The guy is innocent until proven guilty, IN COURT

Outside of court the First Amendment ensures that we can form opinions on public events and express that view in public without the government punishing us.

So we can think and say whatever we want.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. Well said.

[a2liberal]

96. I wasn't trying to imply

that talking about it is illegal. I'm just trying to figure out why everyone is assuming he's guilty

[seabeyond]

100. really? you have read the accounting and how it came down, and you can not figure out why

the majority of people tend to believe the maid?

[Nye Bevan]

69. "Consensual". Yep. Okayyyyyyy.

1. Change sheets from bed.
2. Clear hair from sink drain.
3. Unblock and clean toilet.
4. Give completely consensual blowjob to fat sweaty 62 year old man.
5. Spit out semen on carpet and run crying from hotel.

Yep, consensual. That's the ticket.

[seabeyond]

71. +1. yup. thanks nye. nt

[PVnRT]

81. This is about a broader discussion of gender in French society

It has nothing to do with guilt or not. Regardless of the outcome, it has sparked a serious discussion regarding the treatment of women in France. Besides, if you missed the "blame the victim" threads, you just haven't seen them. They're here.

[Codeine]

83. Yeah, I'm sure the high point of this maid's day was consensually

slobbing on some elderly, fat, nasty French dude's pathetic little old-man cock.

[Dorian Gray]

88. Sounds about right....

wouldn't any maid love that?

[closeupready]

66. So now Puritanism is raising its ugly head amongst French feminists, too!!!11

:sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

70. totally puritanical. NO rape. hey...

read a good write up of this (except two paragraphs from an evolutionary behavoirist that boldly stood out in stupid) in times magazine.

where is the puritanical. maye we ought to get off this u.s. puritanical and say more prudence. not such a bad thing

[closeupready]

73. Totally on your side on this issue, as you must know. Was just making fun

of those (on both sides of the pond, sadly) who have stated that objections about DSK's behavior are simply based in America's oft-maligned Puritan background, nothing more. :hi:

[seabeyond]

77. i gotcha. all of what you are saying

with you and i, could be up in the air.... agree or not. it is all good.

was teasing with you

really

i find it incredibly amusing all i have learned about french womens role in their society, as we are being lectured. i mean, i had the feel of it, but never this blatanly discussed, from what i heard.

[Le Taz Hot]

80. I was beginning to wonder about French women.

I can see the French press is just as bad as the American press for ignoring ENTIRE SEGMENTS of their own society.

[Beacool]

86. The man is a pig.

I was talking this weekend to a friend of mine. Her husband is a top economist and I asked her if he knew Strauss-Kahn. She said that he didn't know him personally, but that several of his colleagues did and they believed the story to be true. Apparently it was well known in the international banking community that he was a pervert, but everybody ignored it.

On Friday I'm traveling to Europe and I'll ask my brother what they think over there of this guy. My brother is an economist for France & Spain.

x(

[AndiMer]

89. I'm not stunned at all

(Check sig)

[Overseas]

90. K&R!

I'm glad they've spoken out.

[formernaderite]

105. And this is surprising? hardly...

I don't think Americans have any idea the hoops women have to jump through in Europe. You think there are salary disparities here? There they are blatant... women are still told ( and I hve a niece who is an engineer in Germany)they will probably have kids and need time off, so that's why you earn less. Most of Europe still asks for a photo when you apply for a job...

[seabeyond]

107. i guess it has been being told repeatedly how far behind we were that confused us a tad

now all of a sudden.... wham

doesnt look so bad being a woman in the u.s.

actually, i have always felt this to be true in europe, though i have never heard this much confirmation.