WARNING - About Evangelicals and others, and the Apocalypse

[jberryhill]

About Evangelicals and others, and the Apocalypse

As many who have experience with the "bible believing" spectrum of the American Protestant landscape know, and perhaps to their exasperation are tired of explaining, those congregations specifically warn against "date setting" for end times events.  

What you are missing in these explanations is the deeper insidiousness of the general eschatological beliefs of the broad swath of evangelicals, Pentecostals, fundamentalists and assorted literalists.  

Let's face it, guys like Hal Lindsey, the "Left Behind" works, and related whatnot, capture the imagination, motivation, and beliefs of a huge chunk of what was termed in another thread "mainstream evangelicals".  That much is undeniable.  

Now, they don't set dates, but they put a lot of effort in "signs" indicating that the Apocalypse is historically imminent.  

It is what motivates support, not for Israel, but for extreme right political elements in Israel who are perfectly happy to cash a check.   

If Sarah Palin thought the world ended on a particular date, she'd be at home praying, and not being the closest approach these people have made to the big red button on the President's desk which, if pushed, they believe would make Jesus come back.  

We saw it in interior secretary James Watt who, being entrusted with our parks and natural resources, famously said we don't need to worry about future generations too much, because we don't know how many future generations are left.  

It is the belief in a "maybe not too far off" end the world which is VERY widespread, and MORE dangerous than believing the world will end next Tuesday.   

The next-Tuesdayans are primarily merely a danger to themselves and their families.  The general "end times believers" are a danger to us all, and they are much more numerous.  

And that is what you are not being told by the "oh, most born-agains (remember that one) don't believe Camping's nonsense" folks.   

While I agree it is not fair to paint all Christians as followers of Camping's nonsense, you MUST open your eyes to the real danger of the wider belief of an imminent, though not specifically predicted, apocalypse.  

I would LOVE to see a reporter grow a brain and skip the question of "How does your faith affect your approach to government?" with the bland answers of "I pray that God will help me do right and give me wisdom...blah blah blah."

I want to see them asked "Do you belief in the Biblical end times, and how does your belief shape your view of what America's priorities should be?"

That is a much more important question, and one to which we should be given an answer before we vote.  

There is a second point being missed here as well.  Again, most evangelicals don't buy into "date setting", but is is from among them that members of these cults are recruited.  You might think "how can anyone buy this stuff?". The answer is - Evangelicals DO buy this stuff, the only thing needed to make them a cult member is some Biblical handwaving to produce a date.  If I run an end times cult, I'm not going to waste my time with folks who don't believe in a particular set of views about the Apocalypse in the first place.   So it is not unfounded for people at DU to express a broader alarm about these beliefs generally, and not merely in relation to this particular cult.  

[Duer 157099]

1. You said it. Exactly right.

It's not just about making fun of some harmless belief--although that has been fun--but there are much more sinister implications, broad ones, and I know what you are speaking of.

[The Magistrate]

2. Very True, Sir, And Not Nearly Given Proper Weight In Public Life

Put bluntly, people of these beliefs are not fit for public office.

[B3Nut]

58. Indeed, people who, for example, think the Earth is 6,000 years old

simply do not have the mental wherewithal to be trustworthy with any sort of authority over other human beings. Such resistance to facts and logic is toxic and dangerous even apart from the ability to wield power or influence.

TP

[Initech]

3. It's midnight in Cali. I'm officially declaring the rapture a colossal, epic fail.

[Gin Blossom]

4. Amen. Very well said.

Thank you for expressing what I've long thought about the soft-ball religion questions the media asks of politicians. "Do you find God gives you strength and wisdom?" is a pointless question to a candidate. But if they believe in any form of end times that might happen in the next few generations, that's going to have a direct effect on how they view legislation, and the government itself. I really think it's the most toxic belief of any religion, and Christianity doesn't have the monopoly on it. Tom Delay "You never know when the day will come" springs to mind. With his pastor advisor by his side he wielded huge power in the House.

[RainDog]

5. during the Bush I invasion of Iraq

I talked to my sister-in-law on the phone - I had two preschoolers at the time. I remarked about the night vision pictures of bombs and was horrified to think of people who were being bombed.

she said something to the effect that this was the end times, sort of wistfully, sort of like "better get ready..."

I thought... what a stupid f-ing thing to say.

and, what do you know, it wasn't the end of the world then, either.

but it's true - fundies see signs of the apocalypse in event after event and then their expectations must be extended. at least the ones I know. it's like the psyche out that daddy's gonna beat you when you get home if you don't behave.

this removes the locus of ethical action from the person's experience of him or herself in the culture in which he or she lives and and onto a fear of punishment from a powerful and oppressive representation of the panopticon.

[jberryhill]

6. Oh they were THRILLED when we became militarily engaged in the Middle East

How much of a coincidence was it that Camping's prediction fell during a visit from Netanyahu.

And... Glenn Beck's going to Israel in the near future. Woo Hoo! I'll bet some expect him to be on hand to greet Jesus personally.

CBN has contingent contracts for choice camera locations around the Old City.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. The bottomline is those beliefs make them LIKE it when bad shit happens.

If mankind were an individual, these folks would be the unhealthy part of the brain that generates suicidal thoughts.

[The Magistrate]

8. Exactly, Sir

We watch for giggles an old-school peddler of this shite named van Impe and what is most amusing is how horrified he professes to be the least hint of progress towards peace between Israel and the Palestinians, because such a peace would be the sign the Anti-Christ actually was on the earth, so only the most evil being imaginable could bring about a peace treaty, and such a treaty would inevitably be followed by a ghastly, unimaginable war, but then --- JESUS RETURNS! Oh, what wonderful times we are living in, my friends....

[Fuzz]

29. +1 You got that absolutely correct.

[blondeatlast]

37. Very true. nt

[freshwest]

93. Very much so. Some of them were orgasmic over the BP spill in the Gulf. And the Japanese tsunami.

It's like finding you have a serial killer walking beside you, in your family, at your job, etc. and they are making the rules of the game.

[shimmergal]

25. Glenn Beck's a Mormon!

Why would he expect to meet Jesus in Israel? Don't the Mormons believe Jesus came to the New World too?

'Course I don't know if there's a Mormon eschatology with prophecies about the Second Coming. Anyone care to enlighten (?) us?

[jberryhill]

27. Mormon eschatology

Yes, in the Mormon system, Jesus returns to Independence, Missouri. They bought the plot of land where Jesus comes back. Unfortunately, on the death of Joseph Smith, that land went to Joseph Smith Jr. and not to Brigham Young's larger faction. For a long time, the LDS church was trying to buy it back, and I lost track of more recent developments.

However, Glenn Beck knows he has a lot of appeal with born agains. Just what garden path he is trying to lead them down is unclear. He's a grab bag of strains of conspiratorial thinking from a variety of traditions.

[xmas74]

70. Tells me someone hasn't been to Independence in a very long

time.

If Jesus showed up in Independence someone would either try to sell him some meth or would attempt a drive-by.

[RC]

71. Hey, that's right down the street from here on Walnut!

Maybe if he shows up, I can get his autograph.

[bananas]

9. You see the same thing with peak oilers and other malthusian doomers. nt

[SpiralHawk]

11. WOW - Vast gigantic huumungous Leap O' so-called 'Logic' to get to peak oilers

There is reality. And then there is not.

[dmallind]

26. But the behavior of their acolytes is consistent

Sure there is more factual backing, but the orgasmic approach to the joys of imminent DOOOOOOOMMM is eerily similar.

[Marrah_G]

18. I think the difference is that we will run out of oil...

People and countries that make changes in preparation for this will end up far better off.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. Yes. They're EXACTLY the same. Except for the fact that one will happen. n/t

[SheilaT]

45. Yep. An awful lot of posters here

are constantly saying we must all be armed to the hilt and must start growing all of our own food immediately because the end of things as we know it is just around the corner. That's been an ongoing hype almost since the beginning of DU.

[bananas]

10. I wote something similar last October: "The problem with doomers on a progressive website"

See the responses to what I wrote: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x262451

[whatchamacallit]

35. What qualifies one as a "Doomer"?

Which of the following are not part of our current and future reality?

Global Warming
Peak Oil
Resource Depletion (water, top soil, biodiversity...)
Overpopulation
Endless Wars
Massive Debt
Deepwater Horizon Disaster
Fukushima Disaster
... (feel free to add any I overlooked)

Notice something about this list, everything on it was created by us. Jberry is right (as much as it pains me to admit). If we didn't believe in the equally distructive notions of End Times and Endless Growth, we'd be in a lot better shape.

Naomi Kein has some interesting insights about the psychology driving our self-destruction:

http://www.ted.com/talks/naomi_klein_addicted_to_risk.html

Edit: typo

[truth2power]

53. That was an extraordinary talk by Naomi. Thank you for posting. n/t

[bananas]

72. Yes - and she's not a doomer. nt

[whatchamacallit]

75. You're welcome! nt

[bananas]

65. "by ca. 2007 most of the blackouts are permanent", "Our slide into the OIduvai Gorge has begun", etc

A doomer is someone who says "We're doomed! Doomed!"

Some examples:

"by ca. 2007 most of the blackouts are permanent" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x262451#262465

"Our slide into the OIduvai Gorge has begun" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=262451&mesg_id=262510


You listed a number of problems - the doomers believe they are unsolvable problems.
And the problem with that, as I wrote in October:
"The problem with doomers on a progressive website is that, while most of us are fighting for things like social security, universal healthcare, unemployment insurance, clean air and water, healthy food, workers rights, etc, etc ... the doomers are, in effect, saying don't bother fighting for those things, you can't have them, civilization is going to collapse because of y2k, or peak oil, or global warming."

[whatchamacallit]

74. Ah... I see

You're right, we should fight for those things just in case doomers are wrong. ;)

[tavalon]

12. Agreed, I was raised Southern Baptist

I got better and I see this crap for the fearmongering, petty and authoritarian bullshit that it is. At work, one of my coworkers said that we would know if all the babies flew away (she's Catholic)that the rapture happened. I had to explain to her, that no, according the whackadoo endtimers, only those who have given their hearts to Jesus to be washed by the blood of the lamb will be taken up. Everyone else, newborn babies included, can fuck off. Gotta love that supply side "Christianity". I have, over the years, gained some respect for the rare animal I will call a true Christian, but they are hard to spot because they are quietly living the tenets of a loving God, not a vengeful God.

And today, many of those mean, petty, mindless lambs got fleeced. I can't find it in my Pagan heart to feel much but scorn for them. They need to grow up.

[rgbecker]

13. Right on. The question for these guys is not "do you go to church

every Sunday", but "how is that going to affect your vote". Once again the media is not asking the right questions and we are stuck with crazies running the show.

[TreasonousBastard]

14. What you're missing is that every time this happens there are just a few...

believers and the rest of the planet considers them an amusing diversion.

(It's more akin to Hollywood gossip than to important news.)

[jberryhill]

21. No, I'm not missing that at all

What you are missing is that the vast majority of conservative Christians DO believe in the imminent return of Christ, and it shapes their thinking about policy.

Nuts like Camping allow them to laugh along with us, but we are not at all laughing for the same reason.

[trof]

15. Too, too true. K&R

[Faryn Balyncd]

16. Pew Reasearch: 41% of Americans believe Jesus will return within 40 years.

http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1043



Granted, not all of these believe in a "rapture", or in other aspects of dispensational end-times theology (tribulation, Armagedon, etc).........But then there are additional end times believers (not included in the 41% figure) that just don't think it is 40 years imminent.

[The Magistrate]

17. In Other Words, Sir: 'We Are SO Scr3wn!'

[RainDog]

102. WORD n/t

[CanonRay]

19. On a positive note

Every buck that these idiots gave to Harold Camping or spent on billboards and pamphlets is one that will NOT find its way to whatever pathetic loser the Rethugs choose to run next year.

[jberryhill]

22. Ones that far gone do not participate in politics

The ones that follow Camping and their ilk are not the political problem.

The ones who are the political problem are well off and engage politically as cheerleaders for Armageddon.

[glinda]

20. End of Dayers are lazy. Unwilling to be accountable for actually doing things to better the world.

[jberryhill]

23. Bettering the world is evil

If you work for peace in this world, you are of Satan. Because there can be no lasting peace in the world, and Satan presents himself as a bringer of peace.

[saras]

40. You nailed it, and it's not just Christians

[B3Nut]

59. One of the most respected old-school Dispensationalist teachers,

one Dr. J. Vernon McGee of Through The Bible Radio famously quipped, "You don't polish the brass on a sinking ship" when asked about efforts to improve life in the here and now. Dr. McGee held much sway over conservative Dispensational evangelicals, my grandmother used to listen to him religiously (pardon the pun.) I too held his teaching in some reverence back when that brand of theology held me in its thrall. It really is an almost-nihilistic view of life despite the purported aversion to nihilistic philosophies evangelical theologians claim to hold. It effectively absolves the believer of any responsibility toward his fellow man apart from trying to "get them saved."

Kind of sad really...

TP

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. And that's why this poison, when presented skillfully, can affect so many poor and desperate people.

Which brings us to another reason why these fucks want everybody to be miserable. More susceptible to being recruited into their brainwashed army.

[RebelOne]

24. The Rapture Ready nuts have a Rapture Ready Index.

They are rejoicing that the index is up to 182.

www.raptureready.com/rap2.html

[jberryhill]

28. Perfect illustration of how far gone they are

[Beartracks]

48. So, I guess end-timers automatically believe...

... that they will be among the raptured/saved/chosen? Thus, a higher index number (by their own calculations, of course) means they themselves are that much closer to the Jesus meet & greet.

Generally, I'm thinking that if you believe in the Rapture, then you must already feel like you've made the cut, so to speak. But I don't really know the psychology going on here.

--------------------

[RainDog]

99. southern baptists don't think you can be "unsaved"

they teach that people can "backslide" and turn away from their teachings but those "backsliders" are still "saved" (or rapturable.) Once you have made an honest profession of faith - it's like your "born-again-ness" is an unchangeable "long form birth certificate." :)

the only variation on this is what they call the "blasphemy of the holy spirit." But they don't exactly know what this means. They do know that the bible says it's the one unforgivable sin tho, so it's mostly interpreted as denying the deity of Jesus - but, since "backsliders" are saved once they have been "born again," it would appear that backsliders who deny the divinity of Jesus are still "safe" from eternal damnation but god will probably box their reconstituted ears before they're forced to listen to church music for eternity.

southern baptists don't put a number on the total who would be raptured - some other protestant sects do.

[Odin2005]

30. These people are dangerous because they want to CAUSE the end of the world.

[jberryhill]

31. More people need to know this

And it gets lost in the "Oh, Camping's cult is just an odd handful of people."

It's true, Camping's cult is an odd handful of non-influential people. Those that have their fingers within inches of the levers of power would never be so foolish as to proclaim a date for the rapture, but they are surely driven by reflexively rejecting the idea of seeking peace in the world, and are perfectly willing to be "an instrument of God's divine plan".

They need to be flushed out and exposed for what they are.

[RainDog]

34. This is why I cannot, in good conscience, vote for anyone who is a fundie

or anyone who promotes second-class citizenship for women in reproductive health, or anyone who thinks that homosexuals should just be quiet about their rights.

I do not think they have the requisite intelligence to do the difficult job to which they aspire.

[L0oniX]

33. It's all about money.

[blondeatlast]

36. Absolutely. I don't worry about the Joes and Janes who buy into this belief, but

I do worry about those who are looking to wield power who do.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

38. What Makes It Hilarious Is That People Don't Understand "Revelations"

I'm lucky enough to have a friend who is a top-notch Biblical scholar (has a PhD from Cambridge), and who is able to speak and read ancient Hebrew (and has therefore actually read the earliest forms of the Bible in its ORIGINAL form). According to him, the vast majority of the Bible, when read correctly, doesn't mean ANYTHING CLOSE to what people today THINK it means. Case in point, the book of Revelations. 90% of Christians walking around out there would tell you that the book of Revelations is a prophecy of the end of the world. And every last one of them would be wrong. It's actually a prophecy of the fall of Israel..............which already happened...........CENTURIES ago.

[SkyDaddy7]

39. There are many things in the Bible like what you described...

I have read many of Bart Ehrman's books where he goes into great detail on issues like this. A very good example is John 3:3 that Christians think means you must be born again...Very popular verse! Well, if you try to revert the Greek back into Aramaic you can't...That conversation could not have taken place.

Watch this short clip where Bart Ehrman talks briefly about it:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TruthAboutBible#p/u/11/8TffAToyojg


The truly SAD fact about Christianity is it is holding America hostage in many ways...We should be beyond Bronze Age beliefs by now!

And THANKS for your comment!

Oh yeah, in Revelations is it true the "The Beast" is more than likely a description of Roman Emperor Nero? Not sure where I picked that up but I think it has something to do with #666 & how Hebrew or Greek has corresponding numbers with the letters of the alphabet that Nero ends up being 666?

[defendandprotect]

92. Interesting -- :)

[earcandle]

41. And yet a third important question...

If Belief Systems themselves are only a collection of opinions
and points of view based on a collective agreement projected
onto reality and have no evidence to back it up, no basis in
fact, and are not tangible, then why give belief systems so
much credibility when it comes to the concerns of the public
interest?

I am much more interested in thinking, feeling, experienced
participants in the struggle to keep our public interests free
of prejudice, corruption and projections from belief systems,
herd behavior put upon us by those belief systems that require
war, crime and disease economies to keep their power. 

[AntiFascist]

43. There is a Belief System that is extremely dangerous...

it has to do with social Darwinism, or "only the strong should survive". As our planet's resources become more scarce, there may in fact be people at high levels who are planning ways to thin out the populaton.

[JDPriestly]

42. Yes. Remember when they asked Kucinich about

whether he had seen a UFO?

But they are too shy to ask Evangelicals whether they believe in the End Times? I don't believe it for a minute.

[U4ikLefty]

54. Great point.

[gtar100]

44. So true. Why try to make things better when the belief is

that this world *isn't* supposed to be better at any time anyway. They believe God gave the Earth to the devil when in fact their belief system hands it over to the devil without a fight.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

46. The truth is, that no one knows the truth.

Except for me and I can't prove it to you.

[Scottybeamer70]

47. Thank you!

One of the best posts I've seen on DU. You nailed it perfectly!

[bowens43]

49. Sorry but if any one believes this rapture nonsense

if they give a date or not, they're nut jobs. Anyone who believes in invisible , omnipotent beings is a cult member.
it is ABSOLUTELY FAIR to paint all Christians with the same brush. The 21st, next month, sometime in the future etc.... all the same.

[RainDog]

51. that's not what the OP is saying

the point is that a belief in rapture is part of others' belief systems and that belief is also erroneous if you accept that biblical scholarship should be held to the same standard as any other book written over particular ages in particular languages within particular cultures.

if you don't think it matters - that the bible is exempt from any sort of rational analysis (and I'm not saying you are saying this, btw) then you may not have a time for the big event but, yes, your thinking is operating under the same sort of mental justification that exists in a cult.

so, which is it?

is the bible a text that may be studied in context and original languages and are those who know the same better qualified to understand passages of the bible than someone who got a license to preach from a religious diploma mill or not?

what it comes down to are someone's credentials to make statements about a topic - if all it requires is a vision or being slain in the spirit or what have you, then, yeah, that's like a cult, too.

[On the Road]

60. Anyone who believes in God is a Cult Member?

Whew. OK.

[paparush]

50. I'll get flamed raw for this, but, Lefties need to stop practicing religious tolerance.

Seriously.

Any crack in the dam only helps these lunatics.

Religion is done.

It's over.

We should move on.

We're not drawing animals on cave walls any longer, wondering what the twinkling lights in the sky are.

I'm advocating a shift away from the weak smile and nod many of us give to religion. "It's quaint. It's not for me mind you, but I don't want to challenge someone's faith." Bullshit. Evangelicals are the Taliban, and they are more dangerous.

[Dawson Leery]

56. Indeed the Evangelicals are the Taliban. Many around here

refuse to see the disturbing similarities between the two groups.

[struggle4progress]

62. Um, Jimmy Carter calls himself an Evangelical

[paparush]

67. Well, he needs to stop. He's giving credence to lunacy,.

[cleanhippie]

69. Then he too, is part of the problem.

As are those that are their apologists.

[RainDog]

101. actually, Carter denounced the Southern Baptists in 2009

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_SBC_Carter.html

"I have finally decided that, after 65 years, I can no longer be associated with the Southern Baptist Convention," the 76-year-old former president said in a letter mailed to 75,000 Baptists nationwide on Thursday by a group of moderate Texas Baptists.

Carter said the Southern Baptist Convention, which has almost 16 million members, has adopted policies "that violate the basic premises of my Christian faith," including a denominational statement that prohibits women from being pastors and tells wives to be submissive to their husbands.

He said the "most disturbing" reason he and his wife decided to disassociate themselves from the Southern Baptist Convention was the elimination of language in June that identifies Jesus Christ as "the criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted."

iow, he finds the Southern Baptist's misogyny does not align with the example of the life of Jesus.

"Women and girls have been discriminated against for too long in a twisted interpretation of the word of God." -- Jimmy Carter, Former US president, Nobel Prize Winner

"...At its most repugnant, the belief that women must be subjugated to the wishes of men excuses slavery, violence, forced prostitution, genital mutilation and national laws that omit rape as a crime. But it also costs many millions of girls and women control over their own bodies and lives, and continues to deny them fair access to education, health, employment and influence within their own communities."

[struggle4progress]

103. Yes, Carter left the Southern Baptist Convention. But "evangelical" is a broad term, that

covers a range of views

[cleanhippie]

68. [phone]

[jberryhill]

80. Intolerance for politics derived from religion - not to whatever folks want to do on their own

[snagglepuss]

55. I never knew James Watt made that idiotic remark. Very very disturbing

that someone in his position thinks that.

[jberryhill]

82. Thought that - it was a long time ago

But he said it in his CONFIRMATION HEARING if you can believe it.

[TNLib]

57. I don't ever remember the left behind crowd when I was a kid growing up in the 70's

I never even heard of the rapture and I was christian (catholic) and went to church. It seems like it became really popular after the books. To me it just seems like a bunch of religious people wanting so badly to be proven right about their religious beliefs, and the left behind bs feeds into that.

Back basically the left behind franchise is just that a product that's been sold to these people. I don't even think it has much to do with religion and more to do with a charlatan making money.

[B3Nut]

66. It was HUGE in evangelical circles in the 70's

and even earlier. The pretribulational rapture doctrine traces to the late 1800's and was first promoted by one John Nelson Darby, who is widely considered to be the father of the theological system known as Dispensationalism. It was really popularized here in the late 19th century and early 20th century through the reference Bible put out by one Cyrus Ingerson Scofield. The Scofield Reference Bible is very popular to this day among hard-core Dispensationalists. The Ryrie Study Bible edited by Charles C. Ryrie is another. One of the most prominent schools advocating this stream of theology is Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, TX. Ryrie was Dallas faculty for a long time...

Google dispensationalism and darby...tons of stuff out there. It is not an exaggeration to state that dispensationalism and its attendant premillenialism/pretrib-rapturism is the majority report among American evangelicals, at least those of a theologically conservative bent.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[Nevernose]

81. And before that can be traced back to a Catholic sect

Led by a woman and based out of England, IIRC. I want to say 1830s, and heavily influenced the Millerites. Honestly, I'm watching last week's "The Office" with my family, otherwise I'd look it up :)

[RainDog]

94. Mother Shipton's Prophecies were big in Victorian England

There were broadsides printed and distributed with poems that predicted the end of the world in 1881 based upon various signs of the era (I've seen them.) Mother Shipton's prophecies can be traced back to the 1600s - they were updated for the Victorian era and caused quite a panic as the time approached - like Y2K, based upon a book published in the 1860s that "updated" the prophecies to reflect the time.

[jberryhill]

84. It got into a couple of reformed protestant seminaries

...and older graduates were playing catch up for a while.

[jberryhill]

83. That's because you were Catholic

The Catholic position boils down to - live right and you won't have to worry about the Apocalypse.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

61. Well said.

:thumbsup:

[MadMaddie]

63. Good Points! I think that there is one more thing - Peace in Israel

These same people do not want peace in Israel because they beleive that the rapture will start there.

Peace goes against their beliefs.

[jberryhill]

79. They actively oppose any effort to obtain peace in Israel

[struggle4progress]

64. When people make comments like James Watt made, they are serving paricular economic interests:

Watt's comment was intended to serve his anti-regulatory ideology, by deflecting attention to some vague eschatology

[jberryhill]

85. I think you have it backwards

Certain economic interests have found that whackadoodle religious expections align nicely with what they want, and they have gotten behind and promoted these nutjobs to go do the voodoo that they do...

TO US.

[struggle4progress]

87. Anyway, there's a nice old technical term for the gambit: "mystification"

"Mystification" is the technique of maintaining ideological control by obscuring the real material interests that underlie a particular policy, in the hopes that this obscurantism will prevent people from thinking clearly about what is going on

History is full of examples: the actual purpose of Jim (and Juan) Crow laws was (and is) to maintain and reproduce a permanent underclass, but the true objective was (and is) disguised by mystifying rhetoric about race (or other "origin"), which has the effect of misleading a number of people about the real interests involved; similarly, Watt's appeal to hopes of a sudden depopulation of earth into heaven, as an excuse for environmental deregulation, is mystifying rhetoric designed to obscure the material interests of polluters, by misleading a number of people about the real issues involved in environmental protection

[RainDog]

95. exactly n/t

[EstimatedProphet]

73. ANYONE who wants a Rapture to happen is a jerk

It doesn't matter whether they set a date on it or not. If you want a Rapture to happen - 1) you really don't care about the suffering of other people one bit, and 2) you're wrapped up in making yourself out to be better than everyone else. That's all the Rapture is. It's just a way for religious fanatics to feel superior.

[jberryhill]

86. YOU WIN THE THREAD!

And they USE sideshows like this weekend to say, "Oh, we're not like THAT!"

[GoneOffShore]

76. Thank you for the thoughtful post.

Bookmarked.

[russspeakeasy]

77. It did get really dark last night !!

[RoccoR5955]

78. The point should be...

The bible is MYTHOLOGY... Nothing more, nothing less. Just a bunch of stories that tell us how to live our lives, according to some pre-ordained practices, outlined by the elite who wrote it.

[RainDog]

96. NONE of the gospels were written by the names that appear on them

NONE of the gospels were written by anyone who was an eyewitness to events.

NONE of the gospels were written until generations after any events they claim to have occurred.

The stories of the death and resurrection of Jesus in the gospels differ in their tellings - what happened, who was there... and this is supposedly the story of the son of god and man come to earth and god couldn't bother to make sure people got the story straight.

if you have four people telling you four different versions of events - interesting that god couldn't bother to make sure those who were "inspired" to write about this momentous event to provide an accurate depiction.

[blackspade]

88. I was actually hoping for the Rapture.

It would clear out a bunch of christian nutjobs making the world a better place for the rest of us.
At least there wouldn't have been as much yammering!

[Oilwellian]

89. I did a video on Palin's church during the campaign

It turned out quite creepy.

The OP said:

Now, they don't set dates, but they put a lot of effort in "signs" indicating that the Apocalypse is historically imminent.

You are exactly right. Check out the video clip I grabbed from Palin's church website. I slowed it down because it's absolutely stunning. They show the entire United States blowing up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sixDDLSN46s

[RainDog]

98. interesting video

Palin and her acolytes are dangerous to democracy.

if there's another civil war in the U.S., it will be because of these cultish believers.

...and they'll lose, again.

This time, unlike the Reconstruction, they should be given no place in American political life. If they oppose democracy, they are the enemies of this nation.

plain and simple.

[Gregorian]

90. It's ignorance.

This was on while I read this post. Weird. It's not even my style of music. But it's pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGiJ8XxmtWU

[defendandprotect]

91. Didn't read much about this -- but what did they gain, or were trying to gain?

Needless to say, as Global Warming threats meet nutty religious predictions,

at some point, they might be right! -- Coincidentally!! :evilgrin:

[BlueCollar]

97. Kick...n/t

[Hubert Flottz]

100. I took a bath and dressed up in my wally world suit for nada!

I was all dressed up with nowhere to go! My snakes were as brokenhearted as I was.

[StarsInHerHair]

104. Apocalypse just means a pulling back of the curtain, just like Revelations

merely means something revealed.........over the centuries Christians have changed the meaning of these 2 words into something awful, terrible, nightmarish, etc. I prefer to think of it as Toto pulling back that curtain on the so-called "Wizard" of Oz; the wizard being the self-appointed holier than thous.......