Parents keep child's gender secret

[The Straight Story]

Parents keep child's gender secret

“So it’s a boy, right?” a neighbour calls out as Kathy Witterick walks by, her four month old baby, Storm, strapped to her chest in a carrier.

...

“If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs,” says Stocker.

When Storm was born, the couple sent an email to friends and family: “We've decided not to share Storm's sex for now — a tribute to freedom and choice in place of limitation, a stand up to what the world could become in Storm's lifetime (a more progressive place? ...).”

Their announcement was met with stony silence. Then the deluge of criticisms began. Not just about Storm, but about how they were parenting their other two children.

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/babiespregnancy/babies/article/995112--parents-keep-child-s-gender-secret

[Veronica.Franco]

1. strange choice ...

They could have announced "it's a boy/girl and in lieu of gifts please donate to "Cure Autism Now" or your favorite children's charity" .... then they would have no need of worry about blue or pink toys crowding the child's bedroom ... very odd ....

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slay]

8. Truly judgmental of you

oh yeah welcome to DU or something too i guess.

[vandelay]

10. Nice of you to judge me, also. NT

[fishwax]

15. You see calling them "true idiots" and calling your post "truly judgmental" as somehow similar?

:shrug:

[Exultant Democracy]

19. As they say, "judge not lest ye be judged."

You laid down your marker, deal with it.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progressoid]

22. You're still here?

Hmm, that's odd.

[jberryhill]

30. Lol /nt

[progressoid]

38. Apparently I posted too soon.

Pizza delivery for Vandelay...

[jberryhill]

41. I sent in the order for that one

[Control-Z]

49. Ah, crap.

I just posted to air. What a waste.

[fishwax]

3. I remember a story about a british couple who did the same thing a couple of years ago

Their child was a bit older, though--close to school age, iirc ...

[Blue_Tires]

4. fans of Saturday Night Live?

[digonswine]

5. I surely don't want to "get to know" these people.

[slay]

9. With that attitude I doubt they would want to "get to know" you either

n/t

[digonswine]

11. I'm just not a fan of these bombastic grand gestures-

that really don't promote deeper thought on the subject. I like the message, just not the method, I guess.

[slay]

21. I can understand that

and yeah, i find it a bit odd as well but i can also understand wanting to challenge conventional society from time to time. sorry if i came off like a dick in my previous post - i just didn't get where you were coming from.

[digonswine]

24. That's fine-

and really-they are doing more than I am at present. I'm not exactly blowing open minds right now.

[themadstork]

29. Weird that simply withholding information

is seen as a bombastic gesture.

Are we all entitled to know each other's sex?

[digonswine]

33. Not entitled-

It is part of our makeup to make snap perfunctory observations about those we interact with. It is part of our nature. I can't be sure, but I would bet that I my interactions with females are somewhat different from the same with males. I am simply stating that it is natural to want this information.

[themadstork]

34. Part of our makeup?

Do you have that on good authority? Have we found the "snap perfunctory observations" gene?

[digonswine]

35. Perhaps not-

but it would be silly to think that, as mammals, we do not differentiate between male and female. We make split-second judgments about others constantly-why would gender be excluded from this? It may not be intellectually satisfying but it is there.

[LadyHawkAZ]

6. Good attitude, but wrongly applied n/t

[madmom]

7. I know a lady who's gender was not known by her father till she was

about 6 months old. Her father wanted a boy, already had 3 girls, so when she was born the mother told the father it was a boy. He named her Richard. Although after he found out about this they renamed her, but she still goes by Richard as a nickname. This was in the early 1940's, the father didn't do a lot of child rearing back then it was all left up to the women.

[themadstork]

20. Sex

not gender.

[madmom]

40. Gender is a set of characteristics distinguishing between male and female, particularly in the cases

of men and women, so why not "gender"?

[themadstork]

45. Because it's biological sex that's at question

[Lionessa]

12. What an excellent idea. Makes it impossible for anyone to

inadvertently push stereotypes on him/her for a while anyway. It may offer a truer representation of the childs interests and talents in those early years. I would guess that grandparents and such will feel left out of any babysitting or anything, and that's not always a bad choice either.

Yeah, I like it.

[Abq_Sarah]

13. From the article:

“What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It’s obnoxious,” says Stocker.

Yes, it's called parenting.

[Lionessa]

17. I got that kind of crap, told I'd never let go, I'd be a controlling bitch

and ruin my kids lives, even had my kids convinced right up until they left home, both before their 18th because both were mature enough to handle it in imo, and for the most part they've done well. I'm here if they want me, but I didn't continue any "parenting" beyond when they lived in the house, just as I said I wouldn't.

PS Both requested to leave because they were both already graduated from HS and wanted to room with their older but also just graduated friends.

[digonswine]

28. Yes-young children are known for excellent decision-making.

[Control-Z]

51. Who else would make the choices

for a newborn? The newborn? That was just a dumb statement in defense of a controversial idea.

What's obnoxious is expecting anyone to buy that reasoning.

[Lionessa]

14. On a humorous note, I wonder if Storm is the middle name

and Shit is the first name, because they created more than a baby, they seem to have created a real family/friend wide ... yeah, you got it.

[Nye Bevan]

16. I have the same policy with my dog. And my cat. And my goldfish.

I'm really, really progressive.

[Quantess]

74. People always assume my dog is a "she", because he's pretty.

And his shaggy fur hides his junk.

I don't usually bother to correct people, because I'm not sensitive about it, and my dog isn't, either.

[eridani]

79. I assume all calico cats and honeybees are female

There is, of course, a 1% chance I could be wrong.

[Quantess]

82. But.....do you demand they answer, when you ask if they are male or female?

I'm guessing no.

[Tesha]

92. Genetically speaking, all Calico cats should be female.

(I forget the exact mechanism but) basically, cats have
two "color axes": white-to-black and white-to-orange, and
either axis is selected by and carried on the female sex
chromosome (genetic material). That means that male cats
(with one male sex chromosome and one female sex chromosome)
can only have colors that lie along one of those two axes:
white-to-black coloring or white-to-orange coloring.

But a female cat, with two copies of the female sex
chromosome, can have areas where one chromsome
(selecting the white-to-orange coloring) dominates and other
areas where the other chromosome dominates (selecting the
white-to-black coloring). The end result, if large-grained,
is the classic calico cat. If the variations are fine-grained,
you get the tortoise-shelled cat. Either way, absent any
other genetic abnormalities, any tri-colored cat *MUST*
be female.

Tesha

[eridani]

107. Except for a few XXY males, who are almost always infertile n/t

[Tesha]

108. Which is why I said: "Absent any other genetic abnormalities..." (NT)

[Very_Boring_Name]

18. Very sad. The parents are using their child as an experiment

Children shouldn't be experiments.

[jp11]

58. That's my feeling as well.

I certainly see the value in not pushing kids into 'boys and girls' toys/themes because that is 'tradition' reading the article I get the feeling this is more of an experiment than for the children to be 'free' of the traditions of society when it comes to male/female roles.

[marions ghost]

87. All children are experiments

n/t

[babydollhead]

91. parenting is surfing the learning curve...perpetually

[lunatica]

23. Whatever

Yawn. People like that are just fishing for attention. What bores they must be.

[themadstork]

25. I like this.

I can never tell the sex of babies anyway. And I've always been weirded out by parents' insistence on cloaking their kids in huge amounts of normative gender-markers. "Little Freddie likes TRUCKS. Please do not get the wrong idea about us, because as we have made clear, our little boy REALLY LOVES TRUCKS."

[marions ghost]

88. agree

mostly what I've seen is excess worry about gender re very young kids. There is a lot of stereotyping.

[snooper2]

97. Well, that kid Storm is a boy..

I'm right 98.408% of the time :P

[uppityperson]

102. I agree, more power to them.

Glad to see some people here who think this is ok.

[WildEyedLiberal]

27. I feel sorry for the kid

Children shouldn't be unwilling/unwitting pawns for their parents' social message/criticism. I think gender roles should be challenged, but this is a bizarre and attention-grabbing way to do so.

[themadstork]

31. Children are inevitably instruments for expressing their parents' social ideologies

It's just that most parents express support of the status quo.

[Blue-Jay]

32. "Storm"? Obviously female.

[saras]

36. I just don't see the issue

It seems not only reasonable to me, but relatively trivial. What the hell are people getting so worked up about?

When the kid is old enough that their sex, or gender, matters, they will let you know in no uncertain terms.

Like this: borngaybornthisway.blogspot.com

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Their call. I say, if they want to make a sociological point, use a bumper sticker

Not their kid.

But, their life.

[jberryhill]

39. IMHO it is interesting

...and made me think about how the first question after having a baby boils down to "What kind of genitalia does it have?"

The pearl clutching is a bit much.

I promise you it has no effect on the infant, and much less than the zillion other things that parents do to mess with their kids' heads (myself included).

[Warren DeMontague]

43. I find the "I'm using my kid to make a point" thing a bit... I dunno- over the top? Distasteful?

It's sort of like walking out the door with a chip on your shoulder. There are plenty of ways to tone down the gender-specificity of how you treat an infant. Strangers aren't going to be dressing the kid, for instance.

And if they insist on getting in your face and saying "is that a boy or a girl", there's always "No Hablo Ingles"

[jberryhill]

53. Oh the practice of point making using one's kids is broad and pervasive well beyond this couple

[Warren DeMontague]

54. It's not exactly fair, though, to compare amateurs like the folks in the OP

with ranked professional fuckwits like the Palins.

[Evasporque]

42. Survival does not require strict gender roles

I find nothing wrong what these parents are doing. Our gender roles were strictly defined and enforced for a variety of reasons to ensure the survival of our "clans" and the perpetuation of male hierarchical dominance.

Despite this many cultures with more earth centered philosophies understood that those gender roles did not always fit the biological of a small percentage of individuals. In those cultures they accept gender nonconforming individuals with respect and found roles for them in their culture....because each individual was important to all.

Religions influence on human social development has resulted on a a distinct polarization of gender in most modern cultures. The result is a needless persecution of those non gender confirming individuals.

What amazes me is how people can get so bent out of shape by refusing to conform to western societies expectation of gender. On this thread are people who show a great lack of curiosity, understanding and compassion. Certainly attitudes that simply do not belong on a site dedicated to the ideas that represent the core of the Democratic Party.

I have alerted serval individuals post to the mods.

[Lucky Luciano]

44. Very silly, but not my problem. nt

[JoePhilly]

46. "Storm?" ... "Storm?" ... why not just tatto a target on the kid's head and call him/her/it ...

TARGET.

Cause its gonna gets its butt kicked.

[freeplessinseattle]

47. and what if Storm had been born intersex?

would people be any more accepting?

My ex boyfriend was born intersex, and his parents treated him like a freak. I often think if only he had had more accepting and loving parents...

[KitSileya]

48. Finally someone brings in intersex!

According to statistics, 1 out of 1000 babies born is difficult to place immediately in the girl-boy binary, and for some it's darn nigh impossible without dna (and even that would err sometimes - XXY, anyone?) I'm not saying that Storm is intersex, but for children who are, it is very difficult for the parents (on the beginning, it becomes difficult for the child as well when it becomes more self-aware) to have to place their child within the binary immediately. Up until recently, parents have been encouraged (forced) to assign their child to one or the other, and the child forced into a chosen square hole is often surgically formed into a square peg. Should the child feel that a round hole fits better - tough luck, as their sexual organs have been thoroughly mutilated.

What Storm's parents are doing, is quite brave, and at this early stage, it's not as if Storm cares.

[eShirl]

63. That was my first thought, that Storm is likely intersex

[eridani]

78. And even if not, her/his parents are making more space for those who don't fit in the box

S/he will very likely insist on a gender identity at the age when that awareness typically occurs, and the parents will likely go along with it.

Looking forward to the day when an answer to "Is it a boy or a girl?" can be "We don't know yet. We'll have to wait until s/he gets old enough to talk so we can ask."

[Odin2005]

50. Dumb, dumb, dumb!

These kids are going to hate their parents for essentially putting "bully me" signs on their backs. Not pushing your kids into gender stereotypes is fine, but this is BS.

[Zorra]

52. "Normal" is way overrated. Hope the kids grow up to be healthy and happy

human beings.

[Union Scribe]

55. Anyone read City of Glass?

Paul Auster novel, it involves a child being kept away from speech to see if he/she (can't remember) would develop some innate language.

This is almost as monstrously inappropriate. People, your children are not experiments.

[Luminous Animal]

57. People. Don't raise your children to be christians. That's an experiment of fantasy.

[renate]

56. I think this is kind of cool

Part of me is thinking "ew... don't make a kid part of your agenda," but until a baby is old enough to make his or her own choices about which toys to play with or whatever, this isn't doing any harm. I hope and think that this kid's parents are going to be very accepting of whatever his or her choices are later in life, which sounds good to me.

[scheming daemons]

59. Another example of parents using their kids as experiments

Yay.

Let's see if we can overcome the forces of biology by stigmatizing our kid for life and guaranteeing that he/she hates our guts 15-20 years from now and spends years in therapy.

[al bupp]

60. Life imitating art?

This story is over 30 years old. I first came across it in a child development class back in the day. It makes the interesting point that w/ children, the gender of the child should perhaps not be considered important until it's obvious.

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/22article4.htm">X: A Fabulous Child's Story

[Zax2me]

61. Dumbest parents in history

Thanks for your brat kids that we will have to put up with now in grocery stores, while traveling, movie theatres....
Giving them total decision control is going to result it I I I me me me.
Idiots.
Not to mention this idea is just stupid!

[eShirl]

62. babies aren't always born either male or female

if the child is intersex, this is a more humane way of handling it IMHO

[Exultant Democracy]

66. absolutly, far better then forcing a square peg into a round hole if that is the case.

I'm not sure if that is the case in this situation but I agree with you.

[lynne]

64. In 15-20 years, a therapist will be getting rich off these kids -

- I appreciate their sentiment but IMO its Mom and Dad who have a skewed view of sexuality.

This makes as much sense as shaving the children's heads to hide hair color so they're not labeled a "dumb blond" or "hot tempered redhead".

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. Setting aside the kid's wellbeing...

... it's a fascinating experiment in an amoral sort of way. Being denied the ability to know the kid's gender fundamentally offends acquaintances.

I would absolutely never do this, but the subject of the experiment isn't really the child, it's everyone else. If we can't pick the right pronoun we're at a complete loss.

[fishwax]

71. exactly

I don't think it will affect the baby that people outside the immediate family can't, for the time being, put it in a neat little gender category, but it obviously makes a number of people uncomfortable that they can't ...

[Quantess]

67. "It's a baby". I think it's hilarious.

A 4 month old baby is not going to be traumatized by this. Obviously the parents can't keep up this charade forever, and the secret will get out, probably sooner than later. But until then, I think it's funny that people are so frustrated at not knowing the sex of someone's baby.

The parents sound like Drama King & Queen, but I really don't see anything wrong with it. It's a baby, and that's all the information you get. Just accept it.

And who knows, maybe the baby is somewhere between male and female? It happens. This could be a way of stalling for time, trying to decide what to tell people. How about minding your own business?

[fishwax]

70. yeah, I agree

I'm not sure whether the parents are drama king and queen/attention seekers (they may not have instigated the news story), but other than that I agree with your post.

[Quantess]

72. Not saying they alerted the media, just saying that

they should realize that they are creating drama among their family and community (it says the only other adult who knows is the midwife). How many parents do you imagine keep the baby's sex a secret from even grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc?

That being said, I guarantee you a 4 month old baby doesn't care a bit. Do you treat it like a boy or a girl..? No difference, you treat it like a baby. That baby is not old enough to care about their own gender identity.

[Dappleganger]

68. Our 2 girls played with trucks and medieval swords, and wore brown and red...

the boys played with Barbies and also pushed strollers with their babies inside. I see no reason to draw attention unnecessarily to what a boy or girl is/isn't or should/shouldn't do, but these parents are doing precisely that and IMO are hypocritical.

Good for *them*, but don't judge MY choices and think you are better and call me obnoxious for making choices for our children (and that is what parents are supposed to do).

[fishwax]

69. many people seem to assume this is a recipe for disaster, but I'm not sure why

I don't think the kid will be screwed up for life just because some lady down the street didn't know whether the new baby is a boy or girl :shrug:

[InvisibleTouch]

73. It's interesting in theory...

...but in practice I think these kids are going to run into all kinds of problems. I've always found it a little sad and strange that boys aren't allowed to openly show an interest in traditionally female pursuits, clothing, etc., while girls have much more freedom to explore traditionally male pursuits - so in that sense I applaud the parents for supporting their older kids' interests in clothing- and hair-style. But they will also have a hard time of it once they get out into the "real world." Likewise with the "unschooling" concept - it sounds wonderful in theory, but in practice there are just certain basic skills that kids have got to learn, whether they find them "fun" or not.

As for the baby, here I'm vaguely wondering what gender pronoun the parents use. "It"? What kind of message, really, is the kid getting? To my mind it's equally okay to be either a boy or a girl, and he/she should be allowed to be comfortable with that.

[Quantess]

76. Keep in mind, this is a 4 month old baby who does not yet have a gender identity.

That baby doesn't care yet, and will not care for a long time, still. They probably just call him/her by first name.

This is all about the adults getting frustrated at not knowing. A baby is a baby. Why is there a need to know if someone else's baby is a male or a female? Treat it like a baby.

[Cid_B]

75. The real issue here is... that is an awful name for a girl or a boy...

Just awful...

These parents are also terrible for other reasons. Like their idea of "unschooling".

The kids decide what they want to study or if with no grades tests or standards. They are all being forced into the roles their parents have decided. They will have to be illiterate hippies because they will be unable to comprehend anything else.

Poor things....

[LisaL]

77. I am really curious as to what kind of jobs these kids are going

to get after all this "unschooling."

[Cid_B]

84. I'm sure they can join a commune or commit crimes or something...

... they won't have many other options but at least there's that.

[Quantess]

89. customer service.

[eridani]

80. Not too bad compared to the propensity of some parents to name their kids after--

--interstate highway exit signs. Madison (Wisconsin?) Kennedy (Expressway?)

[Dorian Gray]

85. I know

my favorite highway to name kids after is the Korean War Memorial Highway!

[InvisibleTouch]

101. I think it's a fantastic name...

...for either a boy or a girl. Some of their other ideas are a little iffy to me, but the name is great. I'm not big on the ordinary and commonplace for names.

[Odin2005]

103. That is actually the name of a homeschooling philosophy.

We have a poster here called Unschooler.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

81. sounds like they have read a lot about stereotyping and socialization of genders

good for them

[jtuck004]

83. I suspect these are going to be some of the strongest, well-adjusted people

we have in our midst.

Beyond letting the child develop as nearly free of the societal obsession to categorize and stereotype us as possible, to actually use the kid's innate curiosity to guide their education (there is a school in England called Summerhill which practices a similar educational theory - along with A. S. Neill's writings I read some of the interviews of graduates later in their life - they are exceptionally well-adjusted and happy) it takes an incredibly strong and well-educated parent who is willing to put the effort in to helping get the resources for the student to learn while fighting off the peer and legal pressure that the rest of their society will bring against them to try and make them to conform to what others opinions, masquerading as the "norm".

Good for them.

[Quantess]

86. I also say, good for them!

Those kids will be the freest of thinkers among us.
Not only that, once these children figure out they are a girl or a boy, they will have some realizations of their own, without people putting societal pressure on them. Go mind your own business, nosy neighbor!

[snooper2]

100. I think they should go all the way with it if they are going to do it..

Fuck, why have him learn English?

Just pile up "My Baby Can Read" series out in 30 different languages..

Then he can just pick what he wants his native tongue to be :rofl:


Same thing with utensils...Don't force a fork on that baby. He might want a---

Chopsticks?
Spork?
Spoon?
Spife?
Knork?
Tongs?
Lobster Pick?

Making that kid conform to societal norms is not what you want. He may want and have a need to go through life eating everything with tongs :)

[Heidi]

90. Why does anyone feel owed the right to know this kid's gender?

How's it anyone else's business whether the child is male or female?

[HappyMe]

93. Whatever.

:eyes:

They got their 15 minutes.

[logosoco]

94. This story is interesting to me...

not in the stereotype aspects. My girls played with cars, my son played with dolls, was not a big deal, didn't have to "plan" it... but what I am thinking about is just everyday language. I recall saying (and I do this with my grandsons) "What a big boy you are getting to be!" or "Good girl!" quite often. What do these people say? Plus, just the little "Where are HIS shoes?" or "It's time for HER nap!". This would require (for me anyway) a lot of pausing and it would seem fake. They would always be using the kids proper name instead (I guess). It just seems very forced and fake.
It also seems fake to me that they are making a deal out of hair cuts and such. We pretty much did our kids hair based on weather and what kind of kid they were (e.g. if the kid didn't like brushing hair, they didn't wear it long). And when people say "Oh, my boy likes the color pink!". Yeah, so what? Seems like talking about it is making it more of an issue.
Just keep kids safe and happy, they will figure out the rest (and don't worry ever about what other people think).

[lightningandsnow]

95. I really don't have much of a problem with this.

The only thing is, I hope that once Storm's old enough to develop their own gender expression, that the parents don't try to sway it one way or the other, even in hopes of being edgy or different.

I know a lot of trans and gender-non-conforming folks who really could have benefited from an approach like this. Especially since a lot of them were abused or kicked out by their parents. It's very telling how so many people find it in themselves to get angry about this but not about all the kids that get kicked out when they don't grow up with the gender identity/expression that their parents expected.

[snooper2]

96. They are raising their kid based on a fictional book

:eyes:

Let's check back in 20 years and see how their experiment went

[Heidi]

104. Parents the world over do exactly the same thing.

Think about it.

[snooper2]

105. you have a pretty damn good point

:P

[Pool Hall Ace]

98. I'm surprised the two older brothers haven't spilled the beans yet.

I don't know that much about children, but I have noticed a lot of them like to talk.

[chrisa]

99. What awful parents! Teaching their kids to have an open mind. How dare they!

Instead, they should teach them to hate everybody around them because they're different, and if they play with the wrong type of toys, RIP that shit right out of their hands! :sarcasm:

I admire these parents. I can see why they are doing what they are doing - they want their kids to follow their own path in life. People are so obsessed with gender roles that it hurts our society, and creates divisions in the long run.

That being said, they shouldn't keep the baby's sex a secret. However, they should encourage them, and people around them to stop with the phony gender enforcement.

[Liberal_in_LA]

106. wow. weird thing to do.