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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:52 AM Original message |
The questioning of L. A. school librarians by lawyers with police nearby. Part of The New Normal? |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:57 AM Response to Original message |
1. And Howard Dean is right again. The battle of unions and charters is nearly over |
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Snoutport (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:59 AM Response to Reply #1 |
3. FU dean.... |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 10:00 AM Response to Reply #3 |
4. We dropped our support of DFA for his "shifting" views. |
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slay (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 10:33 PM Response to Reply #3 |
130. You are correct - the public school system is being killed off right in front of us |
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kenfrequed (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 10:10 AM Response to Reply #1 |
6. Damn it Dean |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 10:43 AM Response to Reply #6 |
9. I agree. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:02 AM Response to Reply #6 |
10. About 10% of charters are run by EMCs |
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Fumesucker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:04 AM Response to Reply #10 |
11. Are you supporting the grilling of librarians by lawyers with cops standing around? |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:06 AM Response to Reply #11 |
12. Many here would support that. |
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Fumesucker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:09 AM Response to Reply #12 |
14. No, I wouldn't be surprised.. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:14 AM Response to Reply #11 |
15. Sorry, did you reply to the wrong message? |
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Fumesucker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:34 AM Response to Reply #15 |
19. The OP is about the grilling of librarians by lawyers with cops standing around.. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 12:39 PM Response to Reply #19 |
21. What on earth does a comment about the prevalence of EMCs have to do... |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:49 PM Response to Reply #19 |
53. I am supportive of the process called 'court.' This was a hearing, in front of judge, |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:38 PM Response to Reply #11 |
47. Um, it was a COURTROOM. In front of a JUDGE. Courtrooms have armed cops in them, all the time. |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:47 PM Response to Reply #11 |
51. Um, yes. It's called 'court'. The librarians, represented by lawyers, were |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:18 PM Response to Reply #10 |
33. no, higher than that now. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:21 PM Response to Reply #33 |
37. It's 20% if you count non-profit EMCs, I think |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:29 PM Response to Reply #37 |
91. 16% . Non-profit emos run about 13-14%. About 30% of charters are run by emos. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:33 PM Response to Reply #91 |
95. Thanks |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:19 PM Response to Reply #95 |
107. you do that. in michigan 80% are managed by for-profits. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:21 PM Response to Reply #107 |
108. Fair enough; I know DC and VA personally |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:26 PM Response to Reply #108 |
110. Imagine Schools is headquartered in arlington va. k-12 is headquartered in herndon. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:27 PM Response to Reply #110 |
112. Yeah but there are only a few in VA |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:33 PM Response to Reply #112 |
114. lol. the reason is obvious, i think. |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:08 AM Response to Reply #1 |
13. He's being two-faced. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:16 AM Response to Reply #13 |
16. What's a "non-public charter school"? |
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FiveGoodMen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:27 PM Response to Reply #1 |
90. You cannot fucking trust anyone! |
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Fumesucker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:58 AM Response to Original message |
2. WTF? |
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Missy Vixen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 10:02 AM Response to Original message |
5. madfloridian, the attacks on educators continue, don't they? |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 10:10 AM Response to Reply #5 |
7. Indeed they do. I can not imagine libraries, media centers not being in schools. |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 10:33 AM Response to Original message |
8. Librarian/educator, Los Angeles.."My employer has become my enemy’ |
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RadiationTherapy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:18 AM Response to Original message |
17. Librarians help us catalog, store, and retrieve the collected knowledge of humanity. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:18 AM Response to Original message |
18. Is this more than just a hearing like we have before any public decision is made? |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 12:58 PM Response to Reply #18 |
24. hmm... |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:30 PM Response to Reply #24 |
40. So, tell me |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:25 PM Response to Reply #40 |
43. Well, |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:32 PM Response to Reply #43 |
45. You're complaining that they're hearing the librarians' grievance? |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 05:48 PM Response to Reply #45 |
60. Please |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:34 PM Response to Reply #60 |
62. Are you even paying attention? |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:49 PM Response to Reply #62 |
67. Sigh... |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:49 PM Response to Reply #67 |
68. Do you even know what "RIF" is? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:50 PM Response to Reply #68 |
69. a rif (reduction in force) is a "hard-won teacher protection"? lol. how about that link? |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:52 PM Response to Reply #69 |
70. The hearing process in RIF? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:55 PM Response to Reply #70 |
74. a rif is not a "hearing process". you don't know what you're talking about. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:55 PM Response to Reply #74 |
75. We're *TALKING ABOUT* the RIF hearing process |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:01 PM Response to Reply #75 |
76. there is no "rif hearing process" in a unionized district. rifs go in order of seniority. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:03 PM Response to Reply #76 |
79. Umm.... these are hearings, about RIF. It's in the OP |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:05 PM Response to Reply #79 |
80. Deleted message |
Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:02 PM Response to Reply #74 |
78. Most other districts simply lay people off when they want |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:07 PM Response to Reply #78 |
81. all districts lay off people when they want. do you think they keep them on payroll when |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:43 PM Response to Reply #81 |
98. You said in comment #63 it's not in order of seniority for LAUSD (nt) |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:14 PM Response to Reply #98 |
133. as of a court decision *this year*. it was until then. part of the same attack on teachers. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:53 PM Response to Reply #68 |
71. Deleted message |
Occulus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:29 PM Response to Reply #18 |
92. Recursion, allow me to speak from the point of view of one of the participants of such a meeting. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:07 PM Response to Reply #92 |
102. First, thanks for your service |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 12:25 PM Response to Original message |
20. How sad. Kids already getting dibs to take home library collections. |
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Irishonly (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 12:45 PM Response to Reply #20 |
22. It's just wrong |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 12:50 PM Response to Reply #22 |
23. Don't most public hearings normally have officers there? |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 01:10 PM Response to Reply #23 |
29. Gosh... |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:19 PM Response to Reply #29 |
35. So, no answer? |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:29 PM Response to Reply #35 |
44. Why |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:34 PM Response to Reply #44 |
46. Umm... |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 05:19 PM Response to Reply #46 |
55. OIC... |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:35 PM Response to Reply #55 |
64. Yes. Did you even read the article? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:53 PM Response to Reply #64 |
72. RIF = Reduction in Force, i.e. layoff/firings. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:53 PM Response to Reply #72 |
73. Well, come on, it's used to mean the hearings *about* the layoffs (nt) |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:10 PM Response to Reply #73 |
82. no, it's not. rif means "reduction in force," i.e. layoffs. it doesn't mean "hearings". |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:15 PM Response to Reply #82 |
84. Yes, that's a unique protection in LAUSD |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:33 PM Response to Reply #84 |
115. link? |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:35 PM Response to Reply #115 |
116. Link for what? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:36 PM Response to Reply #116 |
117. your allegation that lausd has a unique system of holding hearings for rifs. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:37 PM Response to Reply #117 |
118. OK; like I said give me a few |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:44 PM Response to Reply #118 |
119. might want to look at this first: |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:00 PM Response to Reply #119 |
120. IIS Err 404? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:04 PM Response to Reply #120 |
121. no clue what you're talking about. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:06 PM Response to Reply #121 |
122. I clicked on your link. It was the standard IIS Error 404 page |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:07 PM Response to Reply #122 |
123. i clicked on it & it works just fine. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:10 PM Response to Reply #123 |
125. OK the UTLA link works now (may have been a temporary server error) and it proves my point |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:16 PM Response to Reply #125 |
136. no, this was your "point": " that's a unique protection in LAUSD" |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:23 PM Response to Reply #119 |
128. "they're targeting the entire *class* of librarian-teachers (credentialed teachers)" |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:43 PM Response to Reply #23 |
50. It was a courtroom--the armed officers? Bailiffs and court staff for the judge. |
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Occulus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:35 PM Response to Reply #23 |
96. All I saw was media at mine and I'm considered a federel employee. n/t |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:40 PM Response to Reply #96 |
97. OK. It wasn't a rhetorical question; I honestly don't know |
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truebrit71 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 01:04 PM Response to Reply #22 |
27. Beneath that calm exterior lies the vicious pulsating heart of a serial cataloguer... |
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montanto (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 01:00 PM Response to Original message |
25. As an LAUSD teacher, I have to ask: |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 02:22 PM Response to Reply #25 |
31. Your post shows a tragic reality. |
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montanto (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:27 PM Response to Reply #31 |
39. It's almost too tragic to for some |
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Angry Dragon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:08 PM Response to Reply #25 |
124. .................... |
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Starry Messenger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:37 PM Response to Reply #25 |
129. ((hug)) |
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AngryAmish (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 01:01 PM Response to Original message |
26. From what I can ascertain from the links, there are some teacher layoffs in LA right now |
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montanto (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 01:21 PM Response to Reply #26 |
30. Lots of layoffs, and the policy is straight seniority: LIFO |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:20 PM Response to Reply #30 |
36. no, the policy is *not* straight seniority. due to recent ruling. |
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montanto (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:35 PM Response to Reply #36 |
41. Right. A technicality, circumstantial. |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:34 PM Response to Reply #41 |
63. nope, considerably more than 100 teachers |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 05:40 PM Response to Reply #30 |
59. Just think |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:10 PM Response to Reply #59 |
104. It must make you feel really big to dump on the TFA teachers |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:22 PM Response to Reply #104 |
127. see? your record speaks. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 10:39 PM Response to Reply #127 |
131. The one where I defend young teachers who are fucked over by seniority rules? |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:15 PM Response to Reply #131 |
134. "teachers" with 5 weeks training from an ed deform outfit are scabs, not teachers. |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 01:06 PM Response to Original message |
28. hmm... |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:09 PM Response to Reply #28 |
32. The online ed company owners are going to rack up the money. |
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Shireling (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:19 PM Response to Original message |
34. This is very weird!! |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 03:23 PM Response to Reply #34 |
38. They want to be in the layoff "pool" with classroom teachers rather than simply dropped |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:39 PM Response to Reply #38 |
48. hmm... |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:03 PM Response to Reply #34 |
42. Yep, libraries going into the memory hole. |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:40 PM Response to Original message |
49. COMPLETELY MISLEADING OP!!! This was a courtroom, a hearing in front of a judge. |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:49 PM Response to Reply #49 |
52. So |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 04:55 PM Response to Reply #52 |
54. So, I am correct, then??? It was NOT an 'interrogation,' it was 'court?' |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 05:26 PM Response to Reply #54 |
57. And, |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:18 PM Response to Reply #57 |
61. It is routine for a judge to have armed court personnel. As for the RIF hearings, they are |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:02 PM Response to Reply #61 |
77. Really? |
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msanthrope (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:46 PM Response to Reply #77 |
99. These hearings are the result of the contesting of RIF notices-- |
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XanaDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 05:22 PM Response to Original message |
56. I posted this a week or so ago |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:15 PM Response to Reply #56 |
85. ed deform is also targeting high-minority, high-poverty districts/schools first. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:19 PM Response to Reply #85 |
87. Remember Rhee's idiotic claim? |
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XanaDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-20-11 06:09 AM Response to Reply #85 |
138. Yup |
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chervilant (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 05:35 PM Response to Original message |
58. Well, mad, |
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RagAss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:38 PM Response to Original message |
65. I can see this in Fucktard states...but LA ???? |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 06:40 PM Response to Reply #65 |
66. People! The RIF process is a hard-won *TEACHER PROTECTION* |
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CreekDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:14 PM Response to Reply #66 |
83. a hearing is one thing, treating them like criminal defendants |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:18 PM Response to Reply #83 |
86. Hearings are by nature adversarial |
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CreekDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:21 PM Response to Reply #86 |
89. you'll defend it to the end |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:29 PM Response to Reply #89 |
93. Defend *what* to the end? I want the teacher-librarians to win |
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CreekDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:20 PM Response to Original message |
88. What a disgrace K&R |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:33 PM Response to Reply #88 |
94. It's a disgrace that this hearing was necessary |
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CreekDog (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:50 PM Response to Reply #94 |
100. you can't even bring yourself to say that librarians shouldn't be fired |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 07:53 PM Response to Reply #100 |
101. I've said it like three times on this thread |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:09 PM Response to Reply #100 |
103. of course he can't. he is predictable that way. one of the regulars on the ed deform threads. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:11 PM Response to Reply #103 |
105. WTF?! I've said 3 FUCKING TIMES on this thread I want them to win |
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Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:22 PM Response to Reply #105 |
109. your record speaks. |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:27 PM Original message |
What "record"? |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:27 PM Response to Reply #109 |
111. What "record"? |
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 09:11 PM Response to Reply #111 |
126. Way to not answer |
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bertman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:19 PM Response to Original message |
106. This kind of stuff is DESPICABLE! I never thought I'd see the day. REC. nt |
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Dawson Leery (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 08:28 PM Response to Original message |
113. Obama's grade on education "reform": F |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:07 PM Response to Original message |
132. Deleted message |
madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:16 PM Response to Reply #132 |
135. Indeed, it has been an amazing thread. Teachers and librarians are pariahs here now. |
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Jakes Progress (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-19-11 11:23 PM Response to Reply #135 |
137. Most of the usual crowd avoid education threads because |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-20-11 09:58 AM Response to Original message |
139. Dean is a "good" Democratic Party soldier. |
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madfloridian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri May-20-11 12:28 PM Response to Reply #139 |
140. Yes, sadly that is what he has become. |
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DU AdBot (1000+ posts) | Sun May 05th 2024, 08:02 PM Response to Original message |
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