Plan to flood Fukushima reactor could cause new blast, experts warn

[robdogbucky]

Sorry to interrupt the Friday obsessions with news from Japan, but I feel it is my duty as a resident of the west coast. You know, updates from this extreme enviroweenie with my sensationalist claptrap. (that is so no one feels the need to come on this thread and say it) I guess it is also time to throw Greenpeace under the proverbial bus, eh?



Plan to flood Fukushima reactor could cause new blast, experts warn
Plant operator Tepco reveals meltdown and breach of pressure vessel, with Greenpeace warning against pumping water in

Justin McCurry in Tokyo
guardian.co.uk, Friday 13 May 2011 12.23 BST

Experts have warned of a potentially dangerous radiation leak if Japan proceeds with plans to flood a damaged reactor containment vessel at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant. The facility's operator has admitted uranium fuel rods in the No 1 reactor partially melted after being fully exposed because of the 11 March tsunami.

Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco) said water levels had fallen to at least one metre below four-metre-long fuel rods inside the reactor core and melted fuel had slumped to the bottom of the reactor's containment vessel.

The damage is more severe than Tepco had previously reported and is almost certain to frustrate its quest to bring the plant under control within six to nine months. Officials said the leaked fuel was being kept cool and there was no risk of an explosion of the kind that blew the roof off the reactor in March...

...Greenpeace has urged Tepco to abandon plans to flood the container with water, given the likelihood that melted fuel has damaged it. Shaun Burnie, nuclear adviser to Greenpeace Germany, said: "Flooding a reactor that has fuel through the pressure vessel is not a good idea..."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/13/fukushima-reactor-meltdown-flooding-warning



If speaking out against what amounts to a genocidal crime and continual coverups is unpatriotic, consider me a traitor in that case. What goes around, comes around.



Hands off my Social Security!
Hands off Latin America!

[thereismore]

1. Hard to flood a reactor that is leaking water into the ground. See Arnie Gundersen's last video. nt

[robdogbucky]

2. Yup, and more info from that article that wouldn't fit into 4 paragraphs

"...Outlining a worst-case scenario, Burnie said very large amounts of cold water hitting the melted fuel could cause an explosion, trigger substantial damage to the reactor and create a "high risk of atmospheric release running for days, if not weeks." He added: "I think will now be scrapped."

Greenpeace said problems could escalate rapidly if the fuel melted through the reactor vessel. "As the fuel rods were fully exposed and subsequently melted, it is highly likely that the core's integrity is compromised and that there is larger amount of melted fuel at the bottom of the reactor pressure vessel." John Large, an independent nuclear engineering consultant in London, said Tepco's plan to flood the reactor was riddled with "potential risks". It appeared not to have factored in the extent of damage to the fuel rods and the structural state of the containment vessel, including whether it was watertight. "It seems to be poorly thought through," he said, adding that the firm had not demonstrated that the strategy could work.

Matsumoto ruled out a possible explosion but said: "We have to revise the flooding method. We can't deny the possibility that a hole in the pressure vessel caused water to leak."

The use of water to keep the reactors cool has led to the build-up of about 70,000 tons of contaminated water at Fukushima Daiichi. Tepco is pumping the water into a nearby storage building while it sets up a decontamination system...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/13/fukushima-reactor-meltdown-flooding-warning



And there is more information in that one little article on some related topics.

[robdogbucky]

3. And of course, big business in the form of TEPCO will have socialized the risks

"...The government has decided to use taxpayers' money to help Tepco compensate tens of thousands of people affected by the Fukushima accident. Total damages are expected to run into trillions of yen, equating to tens of billions of pounds.

Reports said the government would issue special-purpose bonds worth 5tn yen (£37bn), with other utilities asked to pay into a newly established fund. Tepco would be required to contribute annual premiums and allow monitoring of its management by a government-appointed commission.

Analysts said the scheme would ensure Tepco's status as a listed firm and prevent market instability, although there are fears that the costs will be passed on to consumers in the form of higher electricity bills.

"This scheme will help alleviate concerns of financial market turmoil because holders of Tokyo Electric shares and bonds will be protected," Yasuhide Yajima, a senior economist at the NLI Research Institute, told Reuters."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/13/fukushima-reactor-meltdown-flooding-warning

[hunter]

4. Engineers with psychic abilities are a rare breed.

I'm glad they are working for Greenpeace and not building bridges or other critical infrastructure.

[robdogbucky]

5. That's it, that's what will do it

You are a fucking genius. I never thought of that. I will put in a call right away with this illuminating suggestion.

Any other comment to make to contribute to today's snark? Where do you live?

Any real comment on the real issues discussed here?

If it is just snark, then please move on. I think the Lounge would be a good place for that, no?






"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..."

Bob Dylan

[Renew Deal]

16. I thought your preliminary snark was unjustified

I was wrong. :rofl:

[RC]

6. Oh my... A piece of logic

That will upset the anti-nukers. They only want to hear bad news about nuclear.

Hints and reminders of possible working solutions not wanted.

[robdogbucky]

8. You mean like this continuing bit of TEPCO logic?

Japan's Latest Proposal To Contain Fukushima's Radioactive Fallout - A (Circus) Tent

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 05/13/2011 11:59 -0400

Japan

"You just can't make this up: proving that Japan can outdo even the Russians when it comes to nuclear crisis "response", Dow Jones reports that the latest scheme to come out of TEPCO is to cover Fukushima with a giant tent. It is unclear if it will have a circus coloration yet. From DJ: "Giant polyester covers will soon be placed around the damaged reactor buildings at Japan's Fukushima nuclear complex to help contain the release of radioactive substances into the atmosphere, the plant operator said Friday. Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) will install the first cover at the No. 1 reactor, the focus of recent stabilization efforts, starting next month." This probably means that Japan looked long and hard at the concrete shell option and realized it was impossible, which is true. The problem is that by now the melted cores are not in the complex, but deep beneath it and the radioactivity is actively seeping directly into the soil. And since the polyester tent idea is doomed to failure, it is only a matter of time before the Simpsons dome is firmly in place over a ragion with a radius of about 20 kilometers. Impossible you say? Just wait.

From DJ:

Workers will erect a steel framework and place a giant polyester tent-like cover around the reactor building. Similar covers will be placed around units No. 3 and 4. The work is expected to be completed by the end of the year.

A series of hydrogen explosions blew off the roofs and upper walls of the three reactors in the days after the March 11 earthquake and tsunami knocked out their cooling systems, triggering the overheating of the reactors.

The explosions scattered a large amount of radioactive debris in the area around the reactors. Workers will have to clear the debris near the No. 1 unit so that cranes and other heavy equipment can approach the reactor. TEPCO said it began shifting debris from the area around the unit Friday..."

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/japans-latest-proposal-contain-fukushimas-radioactive-fallout-circus-tent?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zerohedge%2Ffeed+%28zero+hedge+-+on+a+long+enough+timeline%2C+the+survival+rate+for+everyone+drops+to+zero%29


More from the DOWJONES news story referenced above:


Giant Polyester Sheets To Cover Nuclear Reactor Buildings

"...The damaged buildings have come to symbolize the severity of the nuclear crisis at the plant, the worst nuclear accident since Chernobyl in 1986. The loss of the roofs and filters above the reactors has led to the steady release of radioactive substances from the complex, prompting calls for measures to contain contamination in the surrounding areas."

-By Mitsuru Obe, Dow Jones Newswires; [phone]; [e-mail]

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

05-13-11 0545ET


http://www.smartmoney.com/news/ON/?story=ON-20110513-000267&cid=1259


If there were any good news, oh wise one, we would surely love to hear it. There are plenty of possible working solutions needed, it's just I don't think they will come from the same minds that brought us this disaster. Do you have some plan?

Sounds like you just don't like the truth, eh? You just want happy talk that makes no sense. Hasn't two months of lies and the situation over there getting worse and worse been enough for you? Don't you wish the governments of both Japan and the US would not have put a clamp on news about it, making it very hard to follow the facts?

I, on the other hand, would like constant radioactivity monitoring here. I want the public to demand an end to nuke power plants. I want them to develop renewable energy systems. I want a conversion of all the existing plants to natural gas fuel to heat the water to generate the steam to drive the turbines, etc., instead of nuclear materials. I'm pretty sure that they and you don't want to even consider any alternatives, eh?

From your Extreme Enviroweenie's Biased Claptrap, I bid you au revoir. And have a sunny weekend.


rdb

[Yo_Mama]

7. This option is already off the table

For one thing, they know it won't work, because both the reactor vessel and the containment vessel cannot be holding water.

No, now it's tents and apparently prayer. I think it will be a long weekend over there for regulators as everyone tries to figure out what to do. The news that so little water was in the reactor was so shocking that authorities are apparently reeling. There was an earlier plan to inject stuff directly into the ground surrounding the highly contaminated areas at Fukushima Daiichi; that may have to be expedited. I have been watching ocean radiation readings - the seafloor off the coast is pretty hot, and my guess is that the radiation is leaching through the soil.

The fuel is probably mostly out of the reactor, which would explain the relatively low radiation levels on the second floor. But is it in the containment vessel? That appears increasingly unlikely; it's probably down in the subflooring or in the basement under all that very hot water.

And now we come to reactor 2. No one's even been able to get close.

[BoWanZi]

9. As soon as I saw greenpeace mentioned, my eyes glaze over. I can't take them seriously, ever.

[fascisthunter]

13. lol.... why?

[robdogbucky]

14. fascisthunter, you don't expect an answer do you? n/t

[fascisthunter]

15. lol...

no not really, just hoping for one, just out of amusement.

[BoWanZi]

17. They are like PETA, they have become a caricature of themselves

Noble intentions gone awry.

[defendandprotect]

10. kr

[robdogbucky]

11. No surprise to me....

Fukushima Nuclear Meltdown Confirmed, Nuclear Industry Shills Wrong Again

The Intel Hub
By Alex Thomas
May 13th, 2011

“Since the beginning of this horrific nuclear disaster, nuclear industry shills and so called “trolls” have continually downplayed the extent of the danger from the Fukushima nuclear power plant.

Many have claimed that NO meltdowns occurred at any of the Fukushima reactors and that the alternative media was simply overstating the damage and danger. Now, facts that we have reported from the beginning are being openly admitted by TEPCO and Japanese government officials.

“We’re now being told what we’ve suspected all along — that nuclear fuel rods in that reactor are totally exposed and have suffered a nuclear meltdown, releasing vast amounts of radiation comparable to Chernobyl,” wrote Mike Adams of Natural News. As Mike noted, it seems that the corporate controlled media in the United States has been directed by high level government officials to avoid the term meltdown….

…These developments are happening at the same time as government officials and shills are flooding comment sections throughout the internet with their establishment views on the Japan nuclear disaster. How could so many different people believe the official lie to the point that they spend full days spamming internet forums?...”

http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/13/fukushima-nuclear-meltdown-confirmed-nuclear-industry-shills-confirmed-wrong-again/

[robdogbucky]

12. The conversation about what to do continues

and the shills will be running around in circles to smear, kill the messenger, deny enything is wrong, etc.:


"There are various proposals for solving the Japanese nuclear crisis. As physicist Michio Kaku said only days after the accident:

What they are doing is basically using squirt guns against a raging forest fire. Do what Gorbachev did, call out the Japanese air force, get the army to bring a fleet of helicopters armed with sand, boric acid and concrete, entomb it, bury it in concrete.'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42130567#421305...



As Reuters reports:

U.S. nuclear experts said that the company may have to build a concrete wall around the unit because of the breach, and that this could now take years.

"If it is assumed the fuel did melt through the reactor, then the most likely solution is to encapsulate the entire unit. This may include constructing a concrete wall around the unit and building a protective cover over it," W. Gene Corley, senior vice president of CTL Group in Skokie, Illinois, said on Thursday.

"Because of the high radiation that would be present if this has happened, the construction will take many months and may stretch into years," Corley said.
But since Fukushima is right on the Pacific Ocean, burying it in concrete would not necessarily stop leakage into the ocean.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/12/us-japan-nuclear-reactor-idUSTRE74B1H520110512


As Reuters reports, Gundersen might have a better - although technically difficult - approach:

TEPCO should consider digging a trench around reactors 1-3 all the way down to the bedrock, which is about 50 feet below the surface, said Arnie Gundersen, Chief Engineer at Fairewinds Associates Inc of Burlington, Vermont, who once worked on reactors of similar design to the Fukushima plant. He said this should be filled with zeolite, which can absorb radioactive cesium to stop more poisons from leaking into the groundwater around the plant.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/12/us-japan-nuclear-reactor-idUSTRE74B1H520110512


Okay, what are your solutions?