"Geronimo" code name for Osama bin Laden operation offends American Indians

[Better Believe It]

Like I was saying .... BBI

Onondaga Nation leaders blast 'Geronimo' codename for Bin Laden
By Charles McChesney / The Post-Standard The Post-Standard
May 4, 2011

Onondaga Nation Territory -- Leaders of the Onondaga Nation blasted as “reprehensible” the code name used for Osama bin Laden in the commando assault that killed him: “Geronimo.”

“Think of the outcry if they had used any other ethnic group’s hero,” the Onondaga Council of Chiefs said in a release Tuesday. “Geronimo bravely and heroically defended his homeland and his people, eventually surrendering and living out the rest of his days peacefully, if in captivity.”

“Geronimo is arguably the most recognized Native American name in the world,” the chiefs said, “and this comparison only serves to perpetuate negative stereotypes about our people.”

“It’s typical,” said Onondaga Tadodaho Sid Hill, the nation's spiritual leader. He said Geronimo was a hero to American Indians and it was incomprehensible that “they use him to identify a man like Osama Bin Laden.” “Why would that be honorable to us?” he asked.

Read the full article at:

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/onondaga_nation_leaders_blast.html


-------------------------------------------

Bin Laden Code-name “Geronimo” Is a Bomb in Indian Country
By Lise Balk King
Lise Balk King serves as a Senior Editor, US Domestic Policy, for the Harvard Kennedy School Review. Before attending Harvard, Lise co-owned and operated The Native Voice, an independent national Native American newspaper.
May 3, 2011

As news of bin Laden’s death spread relief across America and the world, revelations that the assigned code name of Enemy Number One was “Geronimo,” a legendary Apache leader, caused shock waves in Indian communities across the country. It is being interpreted as a slap in the face of Native people, a disturbing message that equates an iconic symbol of Native American pride with the most hated evildoer since Adolf Hitler.

The death of bin Laden is arguably the most important news story of the year, and embedded within it is a message that an Indian warrior, a symbol of Native American survival in the face of racial annihilation, is associated with modern terrorism and the attacks on 9/11.

The “bin Laden is dead” news story will make thousands of impressions on the minds of people around the globe, and the name Geronimo will now be irrevocably linked with the world’s most reviled terrorist.

Potentially the most disturbing fact is what this says to American Indian children. It equates being Native American with being hated, an enemy to the world, and someone to be hunted down and killed, and re-casts one of their heroes into a villainous role.

Please read the full article at:

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/ict_sbc/bin-laden-code-name-%E2%80%9Cgeronimo%E2%80%9D-is-a-bomb-in-indian-country/

-------------------------------------------



Code name for bin Laden operation offends American Indians
BY MATTHEW DALY
Associated Press
May 4, 2011

WASHINGTON -- The top staffer for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee is objecting to the U.S. military's use of the code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden during the raid that killed the al-Qaida leader.

Geronimo was an Apache leader in the 19th century who spent many years fighting the Mexican and U.S. armies until his surrender in 1886.

Loretta Tuell, staff director and chief counsel for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, said Tuesday it was inappropriate to link Geronimo, whom she called "one of the greatest Native American heroes," with one of the most hated enemies of the United States.

"These inappropriate uses of Native American icons and cultures are prevalent throughout our society, and the impacts to Native and non-Native children are devastating," Tuell said.

Tuell is a member of the Nez Perce tribe and grew on the tribe's reservation in Idaho. The Senate Indian Affairs panel had previously scheduled a hearing for Thursday on racial stereotypes of native people.

Please read the full article at:

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2011/may/04/code-name-offends-indians/

[aquart]

1. They want to separate American heritage from indian heritage.

And I am absolutely against letting them do that.

[PufPuf23]

10. Then you are against the US Constitution and a plethora of Federal Laws and Regulations.

I find the use of the name "Geronimo" for the operation offensive the same way I would find the name "Tillman" or some other American hero or religious figure for the same operation offensive.

You appear to not be that familar with American Indians. Genocide occurred. Indian culture is in recovery and is by Federal policy that reflects the immorality of the past. One such law is the Native American Religious Freedom Act.

About the Constitution and Tribes from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_United_States

Nation to Nation: Tribes and the Federal GovernmentWhen the United States government formed, it replaced the British government as the other sovereignty coexisting in America with the American Indians.<10> The U.S. constitution specifically mentions American Indians three times. Article I, section 2, clause 3 and the fourteenth amendment section 2 address the handling of "Indians not taxed" in the apportionment of the seats of the House of Representatives according to population and in so doing suggest that Indians need not be taxed. In Article I section 8, clause 3, Congress is empowered to “regulate commerce with foreign nations…states…and with the Indian tribes.” Technically, Congress has no more power over Indian nations than it does over states and general congressional laws are not applicable to them. In the 1970s Native American self-determination replaced Indian termination policy as the official United States policy towards Native Americans.<11> Self-determination promoted the ability of tribes to self-govern and make decisions concerning their people. It has been argued that American Indian matters should be handled through the United States Secretary of State, the official responsible for foreign policy. However, in dealing with Indian policy, a separate department, the Bureau of Indian Affairs has been in place since 1824.

At the foundation of the constitutional status of tribes is the idea that tribes have an inherent right to govern themselves—the power is not delegated by congressional acts. Congress can, however, limit tribal sovereignty. Unless a treaty or federal statute removes a power, however, the tribe is assumed to possess it.<12> Current federal policy in the United States recognizes this sovereignty and stresses the government-to-government relations between Washington, D.C. and the American Indian tribes.<13> However, most Indian land is held in trust by the United States,<14> and federal law still regulates the political and economic rights of tribal governments. Tribal jurisdiction over persons and things within tribal borders are often at issue. While tribal criminal jurisdiction over Indians is reasonably well settled, Tribes are still striving to achieve criminal jurisdiction over non-Indian persons who commit crimes in Indian Country. This is mostly due to the Supreme Court's ruling in 1978 in Oliphant v. Suquamish Indian Tribe that tribes lack the inherent authority to arrest, try and convict non-Indians who commit crimes on their lands (see below for additional discussion on this point.) The Oliphant decision remains "controversial because it signaled that project of imperialism is alive and well in Indian Country..."<15>

Tribal State Relations: Sovereign within a Sovereign Another dispute over American Indian government is its sovereignty versus that of the states. The federal U.S. government has always been the government that makes treaties with Indian tribes - not the states. Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution states that “Congress shall have the power to regulate Commerce with foreign nations and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes”.<16> This determined that Indian tribes were separate from the federal or state governments and that the states did not have power to commerce with the tribes, much less regulate them. The states and tribal nations have clashed over many issues such as Indian gaming, fishing, and hunting. American Indians believed that they had treaties between their ancestors and the United States government, protecting their right to fish, while non-Indians believed the states were responsible for regulating commercial and sports fishing.<17> In the case Menominee Tribe v. United States in 1968, it was ruled that “the establishment of a reservation by treaty, statute or agreement includes an implied right of Indians to hunt and fish on that reservation free of regulation by the state”.<18> States have tried to extend their power over the tribes in many other instances, but federal government ruling has continuously ruled in favor of tribal sovereignty. A seminal court case was Worchester v. Georgia. Chief Justice Marshall found that “England had treated the tribes as sovereign and negotiated treaties of alliance with them. The United States followed suit, thus continuing the practice of recognizing tribal sovereignty. When the United States assumed the role of protector of the tribes, it neither denied nor destroyed their sovereignty.”<19> As determined in the Supreme Court case United States v. Nice (1916),<20> U.S. citizens are subject to all U.S. laws even if also they have tribal citizenship.

[WolverineDG]

48. You appear not to be familiar with the reasons why they use the name "Geronimo"

It has nothing to do with insulting Native Americans. In fact, quite the opposite.

dg

[H2O Man]

30. You are confused.

[Teaser]

2. OMG RACIST OBAMA STRIKES AGAIN

.

[AtomicKitten]

60. No worries. The Sphincter Police are on the job.

[plumbob]

3. Why didn't they use code name "Jesus"?

Much more offensive for fewer letters.

[Better Believe It]

9. Using the code names "Malcolm X", "M.L. King" or "Mandela" instead of "Geronimo" is a good analogy

And is equally offensive.

So the operation had to be named after prominent hero rather than say a more suitable code name more suitable describing Osama such as "Cockroach" or "Flyshit #1"?

[NightWatcher]

11. Or further..."We just JFK'ed bin Laden."

Tasteless, I know. That was even hard to type. I wish someone in charge had felt the same re: Goyaałé (or Geronimo, as you say)

[Better Believe It]

4. 'Geronimo': Code name for bin Laden blasted

'Geronimo': Code name for bin Laden blasted
'It's another attempt to label Native Americans as terrorists,' one critic says
msnbc.com staff and news service reports
May 4, 2011

The top staffer for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee and a Native American tribe are objecting to the U.S. military's use of the code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden during the raid that killed the al-Qaida leader.

After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action.

Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.

"Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States," Newcomb wrote.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42897871/ns/world_news-death_of_bin_laden/?GT1=43001

[SidDithers]

5. All three of those articles have the facts wrong...

"Leaders of the Onondaga Nation blasted as “reprehensible” the code name used for Osama bin Laden"

"revelations that the assigned code name of Enemy Number One was “Geronimo,”"

"U.S. military's use of the code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden"

Geronimo was the name of the mission. Jackpot was the code-name for Osama.

Sid

[GeorgeGist]

7. Are you sure it wasn't ...

Jackoff?

[SidDithers]

8. Could have been Sparkly Vampire for all I care...

but wasn't Geronimo.

Sid

[Bobbie Jo]

16. Facts, Schmacts.....

It's all about misinformation and disingenuous faux-worthy spin.

Say Anything Dammit!!!111!

[Quixote1818]

64. Then why did the SEALS say "Geronimo was KIA" when the reported

back?

Snip:

After the nerve-wracking, nearly half-hour gap in information from the scene, Washington got word that "Geronimo" was killed in action.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/05/inside-bin-ladens-lair-seal-team_n_857914.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C60618

[bobbolink]

6. Isn't it amazing.....

One thread condeming a teacher who insensitively hurt a Muslim school girl, and another thread which will elicit blasts against Native Americans for being "too sensitive".

Fodder for the shrinks.

[MasonJar]

12. I don't blame them. Why should this terrorist be designated by the name

of an American Indian, who was fighting against a powerful enemy seeking to destroy him and his people?

[Freddie Stubbs]

13. This has already been debunked

Geronimo was the name of the mission, not the target.

[anneboleyn]

25. Also, wasn't this rooted in the code name of a WWII-era mission?

[pinto]

14. U.S. Officials : "Geronimo" = operation ; "Jackpot" = bin Laden (USA Today)

How exactly the term was used remain unclear. After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action. However, U.S. officials have since said that "Geronimo" was the name of the operation itself and that "Jackpot" was the codeword for bin Laden.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/05/use-of-geronimo-codename-in-bin-laden-operation-stirs-american-indian-backlash/1

Would make sense, imo. Osama *was* the Jackpot and the operation involved a key quick rope drop / jump from hovering aircraft.
"Geronimo" is a well known colloquial jump term.

And it may well be simple standard shorthand to identify the source and the result = (This is) Geronimo,( enemy killed in action) EKIA.

:shrug:

[FourScore]

19. That needs more clarification in the press.

I read an article recently that said "Geronimo" was OBL. What you are saying makes more sense though.

[pinto]

23. Yeah, there seems to be some (understandable) confusion. Yet, isn't the first word

always in reference to the sending source? They had to identify themselves. And apparently this was their identifier. And EKIA is as brief as the opening.

They were flying out ASAP, doubt they wanted to spend a bunch of air time. Seems to me a simple - "Hey, it's us, enemy killed in action". And they were in Pakistani airspace (who had no knowledge of what was going down at the time).

:hi:

[bobbolink]

42. It. Doesn't. Matter.

It. Is. Offensive.

[snooper2]

15. Come on BBI this is the best you can come up with today?

please..

We know you can do better than this!

Try some freeper threads, maybe they have some good subject matter for ya!

[Solomon]

21. You must have missed the first thread on it. The first one was

how BBI felt. This one adds documentation by showing that Native American organizations have objected and BBI is not just blowing smoke..

I still think the facts got twisted. Geronimo was the name of the mission, not code for Bin Laden.

I must say, I do have a problem with the name of the Washington Redskins. That should have stopped long ago.

[FourScore]

17. self-delete n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

18. Unrec

Again.

[seabeyond]

20. why do we keep promoting and feeding a lie. mission codename,Geronimo

obl codename, jackpot.

why continual repeating of a lie.

[Better Believe It]

24. What lie? Geronimo was a horrible, racist codename name for both the mission and Osama bin Laden.

Now you can pretend that "Geronimo KIA" does not mean "Osama killed in action" but that idea lacks any credibility.

Well, you might argue that "Geronimo KIA" actually meant "navy seals mission is doing well" and the name "Geronimo" was picked at random from a hat.
That would be just as credible.

[fishwax]

37. I haven't seen convincing evidence that it's a lie

I've seen three different explanations--that it was the codename for OBL, that it was the codename for the mission, and that it was the code word for success.

There are dozens of news reports supporting each of the first two. I haven't seen anything conclusive. I've seen news reports that say "officials have since said," but I haven't seen any quote from an official about it, and news reports continue to emerge that suggest it was the codename for OBL. Those reports may very well be wrong in that regard. But I haven't seen anything particularly conclusive.

I hadn't seen the third explanation until this thread, but it seems pretty convincing: "For God and country: Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo."

[WolverineDG]

49. Because the facts are inconvenient

& it's a slow news day, I guess.

dg

[Codeine]

78. The outrage police here at DU live on lies. nt

[fishwax]

83. except in this case the lie (well, not lie, but misinformation) was that this was a lie at all

I think both sides (in just about any DU controversy, really) will have people willing to cling to any information that supports their case, no matter how tenuous. :)

On edit: my assertion that the "Geronimo was code name for Bin Laden" claim was not a lie is based on the assumption that Obama had his facts straight in the 60 minutes interview tonight.

[MasonJar]

22. If the code name for the operation was Geronimo and not the designation for OBL then

that should be clarified quite specifically to the country and the world. The other way around offends me and I am a big supporter of the operation in general. I am not looking to criticize the president on this. He needs to let the country know so the American Indians can feel pride in the mission as well as those of us who feel for their continued fight for fair treatment.

[Better Believe It]

26. The more they "clarify" the more they confuse.

First Osama was killed in a firefight, than he was unarmed, than he offered unarmed resistance, tomorrow we'll find out Osama tried to slap one of the navy seals, later we'll learn Osama made an obscene gesture provocating the poorly armed special forces and maybe next week we'll find out that Osama
refused to fly an official flag of surrender clearly indicating his intention to surrender, blah, blah, blah.

Maybe in 50 years we'll find out all the facts on what really happened during the special operation, but not now.

Meanwhile, Osama is dead to everyones satisfaction. And the governments code name for Osama in this operation was in fact Geronimo. But that information won't be "clarified" unless a storm of protest requires a new and improved "Geronimo" story be written by White House writers.

[Generic Other]

27. I made this from a photograph of Geronimo

Michael Martin Murphey Geronimo's Cadillac:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Hn4kMzp50

[Moondog]

28. Meh. I'm trying to care about this. And, thus far, I have failed to do so.

[bluetex]

29. First off....

His Indian name wasn't Geronimo. That's the name a Spanish soldier gave to him. His Indian name was Goyahkla.

The Onondaga Indians referenced? Geronimo would have raped their women, stole their food, horses and livestock....and burned their village.



Somehow, neither Geronimo, nor Cochise.....strike me as the type to sit around and bitch about this type of thing.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

43. self delete

Sid

[bobbolink]

55. You're right! Indians were BAD! They deserved to be wiped out. NOW we can denigrate the few left

USA! USA!

[SoCalDem]

32. These days, EVERYTHING offends SOMEONE or some group of people

They could have called it Gumdrop, and the anti-sugar people would have complained.

[Javaman]

53. Gumdrops world over are offended at your slight...

:rofl:

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Obamanaut]

33. More false outrage. The name 'Geronimo' springs from Italian and

Greek, and is not an uncommon surname.

The false outrage is about an alias, an "aka", and is simply digging for something to be pissed off about. It wasn't the dead warrior's real name.

Is there any name that could have been used that would not have offended some group or other? Probably not.

Link to baby names http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Geronimo

[Better Believe It]

39. Oh .... you made a really good point! You know how those uppity injuns are!

Always pretending to be outraged about harmless racial slurs and insults spoken by nice white people.

:sarcasm:

"Is there any name that could have been used that would not have offended some group or other? Probably not."

How about "Cockroach" or "Fly-Shit"? There's a million of them!

Operation Fly-shit to get the cockroach.

Flies and cockroaches might have been offended but one can't not consider such codenames racist.

[Obamanaut]

44. "Injun" isn't offensive, but the use of a common surname is? nt

[dionysus]

51. dupe

[dionysus]

52. you would know a lot about pretending to be outraged.

[Bobbie Jo]

54. ^^^THIS^^^

[Codeine]

79. +infinity nt

[bobbolink]

56. How easily you forget... animals and even insects are more important than minorities.

[treestar]

81. Thank you! Real information for once

I wonder how they assign these, two. Maybe it's random.

[H2O Man]

34. Recommended.

I agree with Sid.

There are, of course, the expected shallow responses to the OP.

[sofa king]

35. It's also an airborne term.

Usually, a code-word is supposed to make no sense, but in this case it sort of does, because as the SEALs and everyone else who practices airborne operations or watches Bugs Bunny cartoons knows, "Geronimo" means "I'm jumping and I know what the hell I'm doing" in airbornese.

It has meant that since Aubrey Eberhardt yelled it going out the door of a plane in Georgia, to prove to his buddies that he was not only not scared shitless, he was aware enough to recall what film they had watched the night before. No racial overtones. No slur. Just the main character of the film the guy saw the night before. Like many nonsensical terms, it was picked up all the more because it was nonsense. Yo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo_%28exclamation%29

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1119/why-do-parachutists-yell-geronimo

But in a broader sense, the code word is a decent one in that it is not easy for a foreigner to understand when spoken, does not translate, and if anything, betrays a different intent than that which we clearly had, because Geronimo (along with the entire rest of his band of Apache) lived for 22 years as a prisoner of war after he surrendered, while OBL lived for less than that many seconds, if he surrendered at all.

I have nothing but the deepest respect for my Indian friends and I devoted the best years of my life to fighting for their rights. So I feel safe in guessing that what a lot of Apache are saying right now is, "what the f--- to the Ondonagas know about it?"

[Dappleganger]

36. Please stop spreading this false garbage.

This has been debunked several times already today.

[Better Believe It]

38. It's not false and it hasn't been refuted even once. But, you can contact Native American leaders/

organizations and protest their comments directly.

Have you done that yet?

Code name for bin Laden operation offends American Indians
BY MATTHEW DALY
Associated Press
May 4, 2011

[Dappleganger]

40. It's been refuted multiple times on GD...

but then again you probably know that, right?

[Better Believe It]

41. Do you speak for Obama? It hasn't been refuted by the White House or the Defense Department.

You're comments don't carry as much weight on this matter as the White House. And they won't talk!

I haven't read any statement by the Obama administration denying they used the code name "Geronimo" for either the operation or Osama bin Laden.

On the contrary.

The White House has so far refused to comment in response to the Native American protests.

"The White House referred questions on the matter to the U.S. Defense Department, which said no disrespect was meant to Native Americans.

The department wouldn't elaborate on the use of "Geronimo," but said code names typically are chosen randomly so that those working on a mission can communicate without divulging any information to adversaries."

Simply making a claim, as you have, isn't adequate.

You must prove it.

[mythology]

45. Of course he knows his take isn't true

He just doesn't want to acknowledge that he was wrong.

[WolverineDG]

46. The Onondaga are not Apache

And since not only the Apache, but Geronimo's descendants gave their blessing to the Army to use his name way back when, it's really not their call, is it?

dg

[DFab420]

47. Geronimo was mission succesful call sign...

bin Laden's call sign was "jackpot"


more poutrage from the conflictinator machine.

[JoePhilly]

50. The outrage machine runs 24/7.

[RC]

57. It really does not matter whether Geronimo was the code name for the

mission or for bin Laden. Either way, the name Geronimo is now tied to a very high profile terrorist. That is what the problem is.
Geronimo was no more a terrorist than anyone in the various undergrounds in WWII Europe and for the same reason. Geronimo was defending his people and way of life.
They should have picked another name. How about "Cheney's kid" for Osama and "neo-con for the mission. Much more fitting I would think.

[seabeyond]

61. if it was not tied to a terrorist but tied to the seals then the view would be totally different. nt

[WatsonT]

58. Oh for fucks sake

the things people choose to be offended over.

Do we not have enough real problems to worry about that we have to create these?

Maybe they should just give every operation overtly racist names (operation Honkie is a go!) so that we can spend all our time talking about the *name* of the thing rather than anything else.

[dionysus]

62. Operation Douchebag Olive Garden Breastfeed Smoking is a go!

[AtomicKitten]

63. Code name: Circumcision.

:P

[dionysus]

65. ok. you win.

:blush:

[WatsonT]

66. Operation Illegal Immigration Transfats Walmart Concealed Carry!

[dionysus]

67. also certain to cause outrage

[Rosco T.]

68. No, it was Geronimo E-KIA.

Geronimo - Mission name
E-KIA - Enemy Killed in Action

translated: Mission Geronimo Reporting, Enemy Killed in Action

[Better Believe It]

69. Do you have a credible link to back up your assertion?

The White House and Pentagon are not making that claim.

[Rosco T.]

70. My Brother, retired SEAL

that good enough?

[Better Believe It]

71. Not good enough, as you put it. Your brothers past membership in the seals is irrelevant.

Do you have links to anyone in the Obama administration who was involved in this specific operation?

[Rosco T.]

72. So instead of someone that was IN the field, USED and understands the terminology..

.. I'm supposed to believe you?

Right.

You believe what you want, I trust experience doing somethin over bloviating.

[Better Believe It]

75. Perhaps you will believe President Obama on what the code name "Geronimo" meant.

[Obamanaut]

76. You mean GITMO has been closed as promised?

Oh, nevermind.

[Cerridwen]

73. Fortunately,

the Democrats were capable of succeeding where repubs failed in spite of the fact that the bastion of cultural sensitivity that is the US military was, uh, insensitive.

edit to add link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1052015

[Better Believe It]

74. President Obama: "Geronimo was the code name for bin Laden"

President Obama just said that duirng the "60 Minutes" interview.

That ends the "debate" on what the code name "Geronimo" stood for.

Some have insisted "Geronimo" was just the code name for the military operation and not the code name for Osama bin Laden.

[alarimer]

77. Of course it is and if Bush had done this everyone here would be screaming.

But when Obama does it (not that he made the decision on the code name necessarily but he probably tacitly approved it), it is aok. But it is pretty tone-deaf. Geronimo was not a terrorist; he was fighting for his people. Of course the whole freedom fighter/terrorist thing is in the eye of the beholder.

[Better Believe It]

80. If George W. Bush had done this I certainly would be agreeing with Native American objections.

[Terra Alta]

82. If it were Bush it would be decried by every liberal on DU

But it was Obama, and there are some here who think Obama can do no wrong. I respect their opinions, but some people just need to take their blinders off when it comes to Obama.