Despite rapid growth, India lets its girls die

[DainBramaged]

The room is large and airy, the stone floors clean and cool — a welcome respite from the afternoon sun. Until your eyes take in the horror that it holds. Ten severely malnourished children — nine of them girls.

The starving girls in this hospital ward include a 21-month-old with arms and legs the size of twigs and an emaciated 1-year-old with huge, vacant eyes. Without urgent medical care, most will not live to see their next birthday.

They point to a painful reality revealed in India's most recent census: Despite a booming economy and big cities full of luxury cars and glittering malls, the country is failing its girls.

Early results show India has 914 girls under age 6 for every 1,000 boys. A decade ago, many were horrified when the ratio was 927 to 1,000.

The discrimination happens through abortions of female fetuses and sheer neglect of young girls, despite years of high-profile campaigns to address the issue. So serious is the problem that it's illegal for medical personnel to reveal the gender of an unborn fetus, although evidence suggests the ban is widely circumvented.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42892710/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[WatsonT]

1. They're going to regret this, even if they don't care about their female population

a population with a heavy gender imbalance towards males is not a stable thing.

All those boys they're churning out will likely want wives one day. When they can't get them . . .?

The wealthiest will always be able to find wives. And the middles will be able to migrate out of the country.

Leaving a large mass of poor, uneducated, unwed men who are perpetually frustrated.

[get the red out]

9. Young men in that situation

can cause some trouble also. Their society may reap what they have sown.

[Cal33]

58. They have been doing this for millennia. It's not anything new! And it probably

had been worse in the past. Yet they seem to have survived it all.
How do they do it? My guess is that when there are too few females,
they automatically become more precious, and there are fewer female
infanticides. When their numbers are up again, the cycle repeats itself.

Crazy? Of course!

[Deep13]

2. .

:cry:

[palm_to_forehead]

3. I've often wondered what people think of the eugenics that goes on there.

[BlueIris]

4. I've seen it rationalized here as parents wanting 'the joy and honor of having a son.'

As opposed to a daughter.

[palm_to_forehead]

6. It's also a secondary cost of the dowry system.

Even though that's technically been illegal for nearly half a century now.

The eugenics there is just a lot more out in the open there than it is here where it's the children of the poor and the unmarried that are the target of it.

[musette_sf]

25. this is not "eugenics"

and I am beginning to get an uncomfortable feeling from your language.

it sounds like you might have a problem with the civil, human, and Constitutional rights of female US citizens to privacy in their health care decisions, and to unfettered access to reproductive health care services and treatments.

because actually, the dowry system and femicide by the patriarchy are quite closely related to the hundreds of proposed anti-woman legislations we have been threatened with by the christo-fascist right wing patriarchy over the past 4 months, much less the well-organized misogyny of the last 30 years of anti-woman patriarchal backlash against US female citizens desiring autonomy.

care to explain your statement in case I misunderstood anything? i'm just not getting the feeling that you are referring to the radical right wing war against the living, breathing poor US citizens, and against living, breathing female US citizens.

[palm_to_forehead]

29. Eugenics and how it relates to abortion is not a right wing thing.

And you claiming it is shows a severe ignorance of the history of reproductive rights in this nation.

Start with Margaret Sanger.

[musette_sf]

30. BINGO

that was quick, you didn't even try to sidestep. alerted.

[musette_sf]

32. "severe ignorance"???

honey, i'm a lifelong student and researcher of the battle for reproductive freedom and justice in America, and I am a great admirer of Ms Sanger and her work. go back to Stanek's blog and tell her how horrible we DU women are.

[Quantess]

53. Margaret Sanger wanted poor women to have the same access to family planning as wealthy women.

Wealthy women already had access to abortion. Wealthy women had access to birth control that was not readily available to everyone. Poor women ended up with too many children, too many mouths to feed, and the whole family going hungry. Not to mention all the women dying in childbirth.

Not everyone at the DU approves of Margaret Sanger, but I will speak for myself and say that I am a fan of hers.

[WatsonT]

12. It does raise an interesting ethical debate

Pro-Choice means exactly that: favoring women having the option to pick what to do if she is pregnant.

Her reasons for getting an abortion are not under consideration. Meaning some women will get abortions for awful reasons (this is excepting the situations when they are forced in to it, wanting a son is pretty well ingrained in the minds of both parents so it's not simply fathers forcing this decision on mothers).

Can you ethically force a woman to not get an abortion if it's because she's doing it for the "wrong" reasons?

Who decides?

But then again this is obviously going to have major national impacts later on.

[Statistical]

18. That is why the answer isn't to eliminate choice but rather to educate and change culture.

Sons are valuable in India. Women are worthless. Actually worse than worthless because the parents end up having to pay a dowry.

So couple A has a son.
a) Their sons income (including any from his wife) becomes their retirement plan.
b) When Son marries they get a dowry depending on the means of the family it can be significant.

Couple B has a daughter
a) They have no retirement income from this child. Hopefully they have another son to offset this lose of retirement security
b) This daughter which will generate no future income will result in a huge cost when she marries.


Until that changes legal or illegal females will be aborted. Anti-choice isn't going to change that. It would just mean more women dying from complications due to illegal abortions.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. i think india has tried to go around this, by not allowing docs to tell people

the gender of their child.

[Statistical]

31. But that doesn't deal with the underlying issue.

If sons are more valuable than daughters this will continue to happen. Period.
Hiding the sex of the child would be like solving crime by hiding crime rates.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. also, how often is it really the mothers choice? i think this is pretty saying

that ones family, gets to choose or not choose abortion

[WatsonT]

27. I think it is often the mothers choice

this notion is heavily ingrained in their culture. It's not just fathers forcing this on mothers.

It's both parents.

And the solution would be to simply implement a decent retirement program a la social security here so that sons are no longer needed for support in old age.

Would be a major undertaking for a country that populous and still largely rural and primitive. But not impossible. After a generation or so the problem would disappear largely.

In the short term some tax incentives for those who have daughters may serve as a stop-gap measure to keep things from getting worse.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. no its not. its usually the choice of the husband and husbands family

[WatsonT]

40. Not at all

both parents wish to be supported in old age. It's not like fathers have a selfish desire to live past retirement whereas mothers are content to die in the streets.

And by their culture that means sons.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. i grew up in india, and thats not how it works. a lot of mothers

are forced by the fathers family to have these abortions.

while its mostly economics in the poorer SEC's, in the upper middle class, its control of womens bodies and lives. whomever was talking about "honor" is wrong, its not honor, its mostly economics and partly subjugation of women. i think because of economics, most women dont get a lot of say in these abortions to begin with. maybe they are willing participants, but i dont think necessarily that their opinion is counted.

however i think you are right, that the root cause of all this is economics

[xmas74]

66. I have Indian coworkers

and this has been explained to me before. Once the woman marries her mother in law makes the decisions about her health care, not her. This decision includes all aspects of care. One woman said that the mother in law can even make the decision of whether or not her daughter in law gives birth in a hospital.

We both know that pro choice in India isn't really pro choice since the woman doesn't make her own decisions.

[Quantess]

54. Of course not, is the answer to your question.

"Can you ethically force a woman to not get an abortion if it's because she's doing it for the "wrong" reasons?"

[musette_sf]

16. this is not "eugenics".

this is femicide, by the patriarchy.

[palm_to_forehead]

19. First, femicide is a form of eugenics

Secondly, if you think this is solely a patriarchal thing, you don't know many Indian women.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. patriarchy has always had support from women. else it couldnt exist

while it only benefits men, women grow up in this paradigm and accept it to be true.

this is why i believe that unless we have worked on ridding ourselves of sexism, because we live in a misogynistic world, we are all inherently biased against women

[musette_sf]

26. hahahahaha

i just had to laugh because at work, my entire workgroup, save myself, are Indian women. so much for your theory.

[blueamy66]

43. I know many through my employment.

As a matter of fact, my Indian co-worker/friend, who I love like family, and his Indian wife just gave birth to a little girl 2 days ago.

My friend's parents are here from India for about 3 more months.

Grandma and Grandpa were beaming! I would never know that they weren't thrilled that they have a granddaughter and not a grandson.

Just my 2 cents....

[LynneSin]

5. Look how well that worked out in China - now men are desparate to find wives...

but can't because there are so many less women per men.

India has a long history of a dowry system even though I believe that is also not legal (kinda like revealing the sex at birth - not suppose to do it but it happens).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry#In_Asia
Dowry in India: Even today in this 21st century dowry has a substantial presence in India. Dowry is a social evil and is present in almost every part of India. A Anti Dowry Law In India was passed in India in 1961 but this law has done nothing to halt the dowry transaction.<13> . In dowry-practising communities in India the bride is expected to bring jewelry or money to the in-law's household.<14> Furthermore, in some of these communities, money is expected to continue flowing for a long time after marriage and if the women's family fails to match the present requirements of the in-law's family she is ill-treated and even violated. According to the data from the National Crime Record Bureau there were a total of 2,276 female suicides due to dowry disputes and in 2006. And there were about 2,305 deaths in 2005 and 2,585 deaths in 2004.<15>

[niyad]

7. the patriarchal war on women continues unabated

[WatsonT]

15. Nah, this is just economics

sons are expected to support their families, daughters support their husbands families. As long as you have plenty of kids it works out fine, but if you only have a few then you definitely want to have more sons. No one wants to be left destitute when they can no longer work, so sons are just their version of social security.

A decent pension program would fix this in a short manner.

[DainBramaged]

36. It Has nothing to do with economics just like honor killing has nothing to do with waxing a car

:eyes:

[WatsonT]

41. Of course it does

most human behaviors can be tied down to economics.

Unless you believe that "those people" are just naturally inclined to murder girls for no reason.

I suggest you learn about their culture, talk to people from there. They all give the same response: a son provides for his family in old age, a daughter does not and in fact requires a dowry payment to some third party.

Economics.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine if having a daughter earned the parents twice as much in retirement as having a son.

Do you suppose they would continue killing girls just for the sadistic pleasure of it (apparently), or would they start preferring girls?

[DainBramaged]

44. Think what you wish, it's barbaric, and if you don't condemn it, your loss.

I HAVE talked to people "from there" and it's honor not economics, period.

[WatsonT]

45. "if you don't condemn it"

You're right, I don't. Except for, you know, all those many many times when I have.

Pointing out why something happens and saying that it's ok are two different things.

And when you're living on the edge of starvation and crippling poverty (as most indians are still today) economics plays a key role in your life. Honor is less important than putting food on the table. That is why they do this, not your belief in genetic inferiority of their 'species'.

[DainBramaged]

46. (sigh) whatever,

Gee, I thought all of India was ivory palaces and fruit trees everywhere........


Women are always bearing the brunt of men's egos throughout the world, and I choose to believe what I do about the situation rather then the boys are needed as social security for their parents.


Cya.

[WatsonT]

51. "I choose to believe "

Well there you go. You choose to believe whatever.

Whether that has any bearing on it actually being true is irrelevant.

Seriously dude, talk to someone from that part of the world. They all say the same thing: sons provide for parents, daughters do not.

[DainBramaged]

61. "Dude"?

so disrespectful, goodbye.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. but xenophobia is oh so polite

[WatsonT]

71. That's just part of my culture

apparently you don't care much for learning other peoples ways.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. no, its mostly rooted in economics. i am "from there". there is an honor

in having a boy child, because the boy child doesn't cost as much money as the girl child. india is a poor country, so the money issue is a big issue

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. the people you have talked to "from there" told you that they aborted their female

fetus's for honor? really?

[Vehl]

55. Call BS when you see it

This is the first time i've heard anyone killing a female fetus for "honor"
Lol I guess our over-enthusiastic poster takes some poetic license here...but for those in the know(from that region) its an obvious fabrication.

Killing fetuses for Honour. :rofl:

Btw why are there two exactly identical threads on this same subject? one on breaking news and another on general discussions?
Mods please merge them if possible.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

59. He apparently confused India with Afghanistan.

All those brown people look alike, you know. :rofl:

[Vehl]

62. +1000 nt

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

68. I didn't realize that many Indians were professional rageaholics.

;)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. ugh. in fairness to the indian government, they have tried to outlaw

a lot of infanticide, dowry, even revealing gender of a fetus . they also run adds on tv about the joys of having a girl child etc.

the one thing that has shown promise, is that in areas where men and women make similar incomes, this practice of preferring a boy child is less.

[LynneSin]

11. I'd like to think that these countries where the ration of Men to Women are way out of sync...

that perhaps the 'dowry' system will reverse itself. With 914 women to 1000 men, you'd think that the women would be in control and hold out to the best offer of marriage.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynneSin]

13. But technically in India you are not allowed to reveal the sex during an ultrasound

Some women still get that information, there are ways around that law. But I wouldn't be suprised if those girls were from couples who couldn't get the sex before the baby was born

[WatsonT]

14. Kind of a situation of horrible unintended consequences

the law was well intentioned, but rather than fixing the underlying problem it just means the girls are deposed of after they're conscious.

[LynneSin]

17. Sad isn't it

:cry:

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. I think that this is wrong, in India or elsewhere. n/t

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. How can you respect a culture that is so calculated about success?

Yes, they're intelligent in a Mengele sort of way.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. the same way you respect a culture that kills hundreds of civilians a year to maintain control of

oil.

by realizing that not everyone in that culture thinks the exact same way

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. When we're fighting for the same jobs, the differences will have an impact.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. what does that mean?

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. More men to compete for the same jobs that we're losing in the US.

Maybe you can tell me, although women are making inroads, what are the ratios of men to women in the electronics, I.T., electrical, nuclear and other high tech careers? If India has a higher ratio of men to women, does that suggest there will be a larger need to bring in jobs in these fields?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. whats the breakdown of american men vs women in these fields?

[Vehl]

56. +1000 a good reply to a xenophobic post

A very apt reply

I'm rather getting sick of the way and entire nation and people are dissed by some people here on DU. And the funny part is, if a similar statement was made against say..the Inuit...all hell would break loose! This trend is rather visible in the few years i've frequented this forum.

Or maybe its cos we, those of South Asian descent dont make a huge hue and cry whenever we see such xenophobic posts.

[Vehl]

57. Reductio ad Hitlerum =))

How can you respect a culture that is so calculated about success?

Yes, they're intelligent in a Mengele sort of way.

You Godwinned yourself pretty fast there.

Indians are all Nazis. Alrighty. cool...no sir its not a broad brush comment at all! :eyes:
I will NOT ask for a mod to delete this post. Let it stand here as a testament to xenophobia.

[DainBramaged]

33. And they consider themselves an advanced civilization.....

:cry:

[Blue_Tires]

37. pretty soon those sons will grow up with a shortage of available women

I hope for their sake those sons can reproduce asexually...

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eridani]

39. Not in Kerala

Of course communists have been in charge there off and on for 60 years.

[bobbolink]

60. Except for the gender aspect, this is like the US. Let poor children die.

Right now I am sick of the human race.

But I will get over it.

:cry:

[Kaleva]

67. My step daughter is in India right now.

She wrote in a recent e-mail of seeing many very young children holding babies standing on the sides of the road begging for food.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. its a very very poor country.

[Kaleva]

70. It's been an eye opener for her.

On the way to their hotel in New Delhi, the bus driver didn't want to drive in the heavy traffic and kicked everyone off the bus so my step daughter and her group had to walk miles to their hotel.