Okay, this is bullshit: Somali pirates get 439 year sentences...

[Paradoxical]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05/03/spain.pirates.convicted/index.html?hpt=T2

Madrid, Spain (CNN) -- In a rare case, a Spanish court convicted two Somalia men of piracy in the 2009 takeover of a Spanish fishing vessel and sentenced each to 439 years in prison, according to a copy of the sentence viewed by CNN on Tuesday.
The long prison terms stem mainly from the conviction for illegal detention of the vessel's 36 crew members, with a sentence of 11 years for each count of piracy, or 396 years.


-------------------

The people who go out and hold these ships hostage are not the ones we should be targeting. They are the sorry saps who are willing to go to great lengths to make enough money to survive.

The true assholes are the leaders who never leave port and wash themselves in millions of dollars worth of stolen money.

[dkf]

1. Just like the guy who carjacks you and demands your wallet shouldnt go to jail either?

[Paradoxical]

2. Did I say they don't deserve to go to jail?

Please point out to me where I said that. Thanks.

[dkf]

9. Didnt you say those aren't the guys we should be going after?

[Paradoxical]

12. Yes, they are not the ones we should be targeting if we want to stop piracy.

In fact, targeting people kind of totally denies the reality of why piracy exists in the first place.

[dkf]

48. So again if you get carjacked and robbed by some druggie who can't afford a hit you think

We shouldn't try to target him for arrest or prosecution?

[TheMadMonk]

82. False equivalency. And an obviously deliberate and repeated...

... missreading of Paradoxial's words.

The sentences are meaningless to the men they've been given to. They have even less meaning or deterent value to their replacements back home, who probably will never learn the ulitmate fate of their predecessors. The only people who will gain anything from these sentences are "tough on crime" polititians and their groupies.


Those pirates on the water are mostly poor Somali fishermen and their sons with no fish to catch.

During the height of the Somali conflict, European factory fishing fleets stripped the Somali fishing grounds back to bare sand. And then once all the fish were gone, the same waters were used as a toxic waste, meaning there will be no recovery of those fishing grounds any time soon.

The people profiting from the piracy are not putting to sea. They are crime bosses, sitting pretty on land, safe from reprisal. They pay sixteen year old kids and desperate fathers a wage and/or bounty to go out and capture the ships for them to ransom.

The car jacker is feeding his habit and will starve his family to do so. The Somali pirates are trying to feed their families, and a good many of those families will now probably starve as a result of this, unless there's another son to send out and risk his life for the price of a few sacks of grain.


From your words, one can only assume that you support the basic premise of the "have mores", that the only propper way to deal with desperation (whatever its cause) is to brutally punish those with the least control over their situation and the fewest available options. If you happen to be a part of the cause, then that is good reason for more brutality still.

AND that you see no reason at all to address the underlying problems which created their hopless situations, since you three time refused to even acknowledge the existence of the crime bosses financing and profiting from the piracy.

Will you now also refuse to aknowledge the situation created by Western greed and deliberate malfeasance, which gave those bosses a workforce desperate enough to do their bidding.

[razorman]

3. Their parole officers haven't even been born yet.

[leftstreet]

20. ...

:spray:

[FLPanhandle]

4. No, your post is bullshit

The pirates deserve every day of their sentence.

[Paradoxical]

6. They deserve to spend the rest of their life in prison?

Really?

[FLPanhandle]

7. Yes.

Of course.

[Paradoxical]

8. And why do you think they deserve to spend the rest of their life in prison?

[FLPanhandle]

10. Kidnapping, stealing, threatening people's lives, killing innocent folks.

sheesh. :eyes:

As a sailor, I say fuck 'em.

[Paradoxical]

14. They were not convicted of killing anyone.

As a human being, well...I'm not going to say it because this post will be deleted.

[FLPanhandle]

17. As a sailor, I'm not going to say it either.

You wouldn't like it.

[Paradoxical]

21. I really don't give a shit that you're a sailor.

It's kind of pathetic that you feel the need to justify over 400 years of imprisonment because you happen to work on a boat.

[FLPanhandle]

23. I don't give a shit that you are whining about pirates either

Just because you don't think they deserve their punishment.

[Paradoxical]

25. Just because I don't think they deserve 439 years in prison?

You consider that whining?

No, whining is condemning men to 439 years in prison because you're offended that they happened to commit their crimes on a boat.

[FLPanhandle]

26. I think they deserve everyday.

Armed kidnapping and confinement of innocent people. Yes, you are whining.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLPanhandle]

28. They went throught the justice system

You obviously just disagree with the system and are looking for outrage. Whine elsewhere.

[Paradoxical]

30. No, I'll complain here. As a civilized human being, I feel 439 years is fucking absurd.

Why you can't understand that is beyond me.

[FLPanhandle]

31. Why you don't think armed kidnapping and confinement of innocents deserves harsh punishment

Is beyond me.

[Paradoxical]

33. I don't consider 439 years imprisonment harsh punishment.

I consider that cruel and unusual punishment.

Do you not understand that we are dealing with human beings?

[FLPanhandle]

38. Human beings that decided to commit extremely serious crimes.

Not all humans beings deserve to be walking around free no matter how much you cry about it.

[Paradoxical]

42. Way to completely ignore my argument. I never said they should get off the hook.

I said that 439 years in prison is fucking absurd.

[FLPanhandle]

44. You have no argument

439 years is just a "life in prison" sentence. A reasonable sentence for armed kidnapping of 36 innocent people and confining them for months. The justice system agrees. I agree with the justice system.

You can cry about the poor pirates, but I consider your position fucking absurd.

[Swede]

64. You are just too cruel.

I think they should have only gotten 339 years.

[BzaDem]

71. You think life in prison is cruel and unusual punishment??? Does that view apply to any crime, or

just this one? Would you say it was cruel and unusual for murder or mass murder? If not, where would you draw the line?

[Paradoxical]

73. No, that applies to any crime.

The justice system is, ideally, suppose to serve as a form of rehabilitation.

Life imprisonment should only be carried out on people who are a danger to themselves or others. And that should be reassessed FREQUENTLY.

[pipoman]

81. Hey, I have an idea...

we should move all of the criminals being reassessed to your immediate neighborhood. How would that be?

I've spent a fair amount of time in prisons working with convicts. Some are ok. Most I wouldn't want within 10 miles of my family upon release...help yourself..

[Paradoxical]

88. Well, being that I lived in a house for 10 years with a convicted felon...

That probably wouldn't bother me that much. I've met felons of all shapes and sizes and convictions. And most of them were very decent people.

I even met a convicted murderer who spent most of his adult life in prison. A very nice man. Made a lot of mistakes when he was young and paid dearly for them in the end.

I am of the exact opposite mindset. Some of them are very much dangerous and I wouldn't want them anywhere near me. Most of them I would trust as neighbors.

[pipoman]

96. Yeah, since recidivism is so low

I can see your point.

* Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
* Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.
* The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1134

[BzaDem]

84. So if someone thought Bin Laden was "rehabilitated," you would support his freedom?

Have you considered the possibility that your conception of the justice system is actually the problem, rather than punitive life sentences? In other words, perhaps when you say "ideally," the problem is solely with your ideals?

[Paradoxical]

89. If he was truly rehabilitated, I see no reason why he shouldn't be set free.

Your argument doesn't register with me.

[AlabamaLibrul]

80. I have some bad news for you

they will have left the prison long before the 439 years is up.

[Fla_Democrat]

67. Well. they most likely will not spend all 439 years

I'm sure, that with good behavior, they can be out in 350 or so.



:smoke:

[Dorian Gray]

95. Well

look at it this way........

They'll probably only serve 50 or so years.

[msongs]

11. 36 counts of kidnapping during piracy times 11 years per count = you do the math nt

[Paradoxical]

15. They committed one act of piracy. There happened to be 36 people aboard.

That's not piracy times 36.

[msongs]

24. "36 counts of kidnapping...." and armed kidnapping at that. nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

87. ...Impersonating an officer of the Crown...

[TheMadMonk]

92. And yet 50 dead, 5000 made seriously ill by food poisoning...

...equals just one case of negligence?

Tens of thousands dying every month across Africa just so that a few can profit, and you and I can have cheap jewelery and electronic gimcracks to throw away every time something flashier shows up on the shelves.

What punishments have been enacted on the European fishing fleets which destroyed Somalia's fishing grounds? And the toxic waste dumpers who followed and poisoned those fishing grounds beyond immediate recovery?

Even more than whores, chained by drugs to their pimps and numbed by those same drugs to their fate, most of these "evil pirates" are kids and fathers faced with the stark choice of watching their families slowly starve to death or taking the only job on offer.

We, you, I and everyone who collectively benefits from our technological world of cheap consumeristic privilege are ultimately responsible for the brutality and desperation of their situation. And you want to heap even further brutality upon these people for daring to try to survive.

Right around the world, more and less visibly, exactly the same scenarios play. The profiteers profit with near impunity, and the resulting impoverishment is treated as reason for heaping additional puinishment upon anyone who dares cross the line in their desperation.

Of course they should be punished for what they did, but this is fucking ridiculous. Just as it's ridiculous to hand down a life sentence for three small offenses.

[SadPanda]

37. YES!!!! Really!!

These people KILL INNOCENT INDIVIDUALS. Life sentence is appropriate.

[virgogal]

5. And it's been that way since man crawled out of the ooze.

Very few "top guns" get caught.

[Freddie Stubbs]

13. To be fair, their sentences should be reduced to 219 1/2 years

[Drale]

16. They are lucky they where not just hung without a trial

because historically thats what happens to pirates.

[irisblue]

18. so?

you're right the leaders are assholes, and those pirates did the crimes...should that excuse the pirates?

[Paradoxical]

22. They committed acts that deserve 439 years of imprisonment?

Come on. Think about it.

[irisblue]

45. what you suggest

how would you prevent/punish pirates? they took a possibly very profitable risk and failed. the crew members, each as individuals were in fear of their lives during their captivity, the spanish penalty was 11 years, there were 36 crew do you think that the sentence per person is too high or the collective of 11 years per person too long? i am asking you in seriousness, not snark

[Paradoxical]

90. Why don't we start by righting the wrongs of centuries of abuse?

Somalia is a fucking wasteland. I do not fault anyone who lives in such terrible conditions that they feel piracy is the only way out.

[irisblue]

94. nice distraction point attempt

again, no snark, serious question...who do you discount in the sentencing? which crews' anguish/fear/pain wasn't worth being counted? and punished? what do you feel the pirates are bring to their homeland by piracy? how do you propose to improve the lot of coastal somalians. if there is no/limited trade from that area, for sure the internal areas get limited trade, and there for much less possibilities in improving their communities

[Motown_Johnny]

19. but they are eligible for parole after 275

:sarcasm:

[tammywammy]

29. Held 36 people hostage for 47 days for ransom.

Yes, they should spend the rest of their lives in prison.

[cliffordu]

32. They're lucky Seal Team 6 didn't come for a visit.

[SadPanda]

34. Reasonable people object to the OP.... when you set out to hijack and possibely kill innocent people

You deserve a life sentence. Period.

[Paradoxical]

36. They DIDN'T kill anyone.

[SadPanda]

39. Ya, only held them hostage for nearly two months, threatened repeatedly to kill and got surprised...

That's ok I guess. Are you serious?

[Paradoxical]

41. I am absolutely serious.

You cannot judge their actions without understanding why they did it in the first place.

[dems_rightnow]

43. Sure you can

We do it every day in courts. Nobody gives a damn WHY the committed their crimes. Really. Merely that they committed them.

[Paradoxical]

75. Maybe I should rephrase, we should give a damn about history.

Especially if the goal of the justice system is rehabilitation. Which I think it should be.

[alphafemale]

35. I'd cut it back to 79 years. So long as they serve every day. nt

[fivepennies]

40. Untold Stories about Somalia Pirates

- European ships dump Nuclear Waste into Somalia Ocean



http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2009/04/12/untold-stories-about-somalia-pirates-european-ships-dump-nuclear-waste-into-somalia-ocean/

I guess European shipowners can't be convicted and given life sentences for poisoning Somalia's fishing grounds. Payback's a hitch.

[Leopolds Ghost]

50. But the European shippers will be caught eventually, and sentenced to 439 years in a Spanish court

Right?

[fivepennies]

55. Right. Sure.

We'll both be ghosts long before that happens.

[Leopolds Ghost]

61. Ghost pirates, you mean. The most fearsome on the Spanish Main

[fivepennies]

102. I can get behind that idea!

Yo ho ho and a bottle of ghost rum.

:fistbump:

[FLAprogressive]

63. Welcome to DU: Where Two Wrongs Make a Right!

[fivepennies]

101. Thanks for the welcome, I guess

you could call it an invasion I suppose. So I'll dump tons of nuclear waste in your back yard and when you ask for compensation for the damage but the dumping just continues unabated and your family begins to sicken and die, I'll expect you to soon be donning a black eye patch.

I thought this was supposed to be democratic underground where people respect their neighbors right to clean air and water, not corporocratic underground where the powerful few are allowed to destroy other's livelihoods and pollute their back yards with impunity.

Sorry to break it to you, but that two wrongs business is the rallying cry of aggressors.

[Rowdyboy]

46. How tragically sad that mass kidnappers should spend their lives in prison....

An even bigger tragedy that Spain will have to pay to feed them.

[quinnox]

47. ........

:popcorn:

[Paradoxical]

72. ...

*shakes fist in rage*

[Nye Bevan]

49. Wow. Are you on a mission to perpetuate the "bleeding heart liberal" stereotype?

Pirates used to face automatic execution, and for good reason. These guys are extremely lucky to be going to jail for life, where they will get free food and medical care. And as for blaming "the leaders", please spare me. The vast majority of poor Somalians do *not* resort to piracy.

Oh and BTW: the Times Square Bomber (Faisal Shahzad, 2010) did not kill anyone either, and yet was sentenced to life without parole. I guess you have a problem with that sentence, too.

[Leopolds Ghost]

51. I think the point of the OP is theres a difference in jurisprudence between kidnapping and murder

A difference that many DUers and others disagree with, and that's fine.

It's OK to steal billions so long as you don't kidnap anyone or endanger the lives of citizens with property and an address. Endanger the lives of a few third worlders or homeless types, smuggle weapons into East Africa on planes bound for fish to Europe... eh... community service?

[Nye Bevan]

52. Madoff stole billions, didn't kill anyone, and is doing life without parole (nt)

[Leopolds Ghost]

59. I'm not TOO worked up about this. After all... he is a pirate...

I suppose we can afford to give them one day's head start.

[Ikonoklast]

97. He was a pirate, too.

Ahoy, matey.

Shiver me timbers.

You don't have to read the prospectus, it's all legal boilerplate anyway, look, I'm personally guaranteeing you a 25% per annum return!

Argh.

[Recovered Repug]

53. You're right, it is bullshit.

One tall tree + one short rope = problem solved.

[Throd]

54. You're right. It would have been more humane to give them life sentences.

I would have given them a brazillion years.

[Diclotican]

56. Paradoxical

Paradoxical

Relax.. They would be given a 30 year sentence, and be sendt back to Somalia after 30 year.. Yes they have been given a 400 year sentence, but in reality (in europe) you seldom are in prison longer than 30 year.. And for the loock at it, you have a far better shance of living wel in a prison cell in Spain, than say, in many US prison this days.... Even horrible murderes who really have been doing some ugly stuff, are seldom given more than 30 year in most of europe... After that, they might get into some protective custody or something like that, but they are not in the prison system after say 30 year...

In US, life means life behind bars.. In most of Europe, it means you get a long sentence, like 25 to 30 year, and after that, you are so old that you might as wel be given your freedom.. YOu are not often been seen as a danger after 30 year behind bars...

To be honest, the somali pirates who got 400 year behind bars, should be happy they was not living in Europe in the 1600 and 1700s.. Then they would be hanged withouth a trial or if they was so lucky to get to a trial been hanged in the town square.. Today you get a rather comfortable prison cell, and posible also education, like learning to write and read... 30 year is a long setence to get.. But when you think about been hanged to your death it is far better to be in a cell...

Diclotican

[Angry Dragon]

57. Have them walk the plank .......... problem solved

:evilgrin:

[Leopolds Ghost]

60. Actually done by South Asian pirates recently. They make you stand in the shallows

On a reef offshore, So if you get rescued and don't get drowned or eaten by sharks, you won't have time to call for help until they are safely away. That is if you're lucky.

Why is everyone always ragging on the Somali pirates when they mostly just extort people for money? The Southeast Asian pirates, it is said, leave no survivors. I've heard stories...

[Angry Dragon]

58. Extra

:evilgrin:

[Blue-Jay]

62. How many years in prison would YOU recommend?

438?

100?

25?

1?

Perhaps some intensive counseling?

[JVS]

70. 1/3 of that sentence would be more than adequate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. I can't unrecommend this strongly enough.

Those motherfuckers should have been sent to the bottom of the sea. The only good pirate is a dead one.

[REP]

66. Ask for your tuition back.

[apocalypsehow]

68. You call it "bullshit," I call it "justice served." UnRec. n/t.

[Leopolds Ghost]

91. Wow, you're really upset about pirates. n/t

[one_voice]

69. So basically...

they got life without parole. It's not as if they're going to live for 400 years. Do you think life w/o parole is to harsh a punishment for their crimes? Cuz really that's what it is.

I'm not giving an opinion as to whether it's too harsh or fair, just looking at it from a different perspective.

[stevenleser]

74. I think the punishment fits the crime. Piracy on the high seas should get life in prison every time.

There is only one way to discourage this and that is long prison sentences.

[Paradoxical]

76. Are you aware of the kind of conditions people live in Somalia?

[stevenleser]

77. That is part of the reason that the punishment needs to be so severe.

The punishment needs to be so severe that even desperate people will not resort to piracy.

I'm much more concerned about the innocent people going about their business in boats and ships than a pirate. The seas are very difficult to patrol and that gives people like these asshole pirates the idea that they can operate with impunity. They need to be proven wrong.

[Paradoxical]

79. My god. No offense, but I consider that so ass backwards that it frightens me.

There is a very real probability that I'm totally fucking wrong.

[stevenleser]

83. You are wrong, but it isnt the worst thing in the world to be wrong about.

I dont think you really appreciate how bad of a crime piracy is and what it entails.

[Leopolds Ghost]

85. Somali piracy is mostly kidnapping & holding ships for ransom. I fail to see the momentous OBL-level

Outrage here... I guess bank robbers should go to jail for 400 years too.

Under England's Bloody Code, Pirates were hanged or tortured to death -- but then, so were ANY thieves, hence the origin of the Anglo tradition of jury nullification for first-time offenders.

[stevenleser]

105. Bank Robbers tend to get 10-20 years in prison per occurrence. I agree with that too.

No one said it was OBL-level but at least you illustrated the straw man logical fallacy well.

[BzaDem]

86. The only reason your ideas don't frighten me is that I know they will never be implemented.

So while you are indeed wrong, it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things.

[Ikonoklast]

99. So, people in dire straits the world over have a right to steal, murder and extort others

for the benefit of their warlord bosses?

When the vast majority of the world's poor do no such thing, and survive within the framework of civilized lawful behavior?


They got a far better deal from Spain than I would be willing to give them.

[wickerwoman]

78. This isn't hockey. More than one person can sit in the penalty box at the same time.

Taking hostages = a bad, bad thing to do.

How would you feel if someone took your mother or sister hostage for months, held them at gunpoint and threatened to kill them unless you came up with a ransom?

[Obamanaut]

93. They bought their tickets, now they take their ride. nt

[CBGLuthier]

98. Fuck em. Find some other cause to cry over. They are PIRATES

Terrorists of the Sea.

[brooklynite]

100. You haven't bothered to tell us what your fairer sentence would be...

However harsh the total sentence, it was based on a formula that everyone can understand. Suppose, instead of being caught, the pirates had separately kidnapped 36 people, holding each for the same period. The impact on the victims would be the same; would you still feel an extended sentence was unwarrented?

And by the way, a "sap" generally refers to someone who's not aware of the crime he's involved in. However little the pirates were earning compared to the organizers, you can't argue that they weren;t aware of what they were doing.

[MicaelS]

103. Unrecc'd, and they should have been HANGED

Gawd, with attitudes like yours, it is no surprise the Left has problems attracting support among the middle class. You seem to care more about criminals than their victims.

[yawnmaster]

104. I agree. 400 years should be the max. 439 is just way overboard. eom