Are you conflicted--at all?

[blondeatlast]

Maybe you abhor violence but just can't get yourself really worked up about the death of ObL? That's me--in fact, I celebrated just a little on Sunday night. I abhor war--I was a kid during Viet Nam and occasionally caught a glimpse of the action back when the news mattered--and I want us out of Iraq and Afghanistan--yesterday (but I know it takes time, too, sad as it is).

I'm confused and conflicted and flawed and emotional and messy. If you are conflicted like me you likely understand that civilization hasn't adequately resolved what to do about terrorism and maybe we just have to make it up as we go along. Like us, the remedies at hand are messy and confusing and awkward and unethical and awful and I'm just glad I don't have to solve the problem.

The debate here has been situated at the extremes and it's made most of us defensive. That's a pity, IMHO, because I think those of us who are conflicted are most able to understand what's at stake. Is it okay to cheer ObL's death? I don't know--but I think not knowing is the best place to start.

Incoming baseless assumptions, straw men, logical fallacies, and polarized thinking...or--maybe not?! I can only hope! :hi:

Edit: added "a little" to "celebrated--no dancing or high-fiving or calling up my friends, but I did enjoy some closure.

[vi5]

1. Very much so....

I agree on almost all counts that you listed. I wouldn't say I celebrated but I wasn't upset, and I enjoyed the sense of completion and the semblance of closure, however small it provided. Especially since it was (if accounts are to be believed) a very calculated, surgical strike.

[patricia92243]

2. I am not conflicted at all. Wish this had been in a poll format. Would be interesed to see results

[blondeatlast]

4. I thought about that, but I was hoping for some dialog.

I'm not adverse to anyone else starting one, but I thought that might defeat the purpose.

[Betsy Ross]

3. Conflicted is the very term I used to describe

my reaction to the news of OBL's death. But I do admit that killing him and burying him at sea was probably the best thing to do, I'm just not sure I would have made that call. I hope I never celebrate the killing of a man.

[lisa58]

5. Don't be so hard on yourself....

....every action movie ever made had what happened on Sunday as the climax.

The first movie most of us have ever seen was The Wizard of Oz. Who didn't celebrate the demise of the Wicked Witch of the West and East.

You are human, as am I. Just be honest about how you feel and don't apologize for being honest.

[proud patriot]

8. +1

[calimary]

53. +1,000!

[uponit7771]

58. +10,000

[malaise]

6. Yes I am

:hi:

[NYC_SKP]

7. No, not really. I'd like to share, however, one of the things I read that made me feel pretty good.

I wish I could remember who or provide a link but it was along the lines of:

Osama Bin Laden is no longer the face of Islam, he is dead and gone.

Maybe it will be easier now for Americans, when they think of Islamic people, to think of moms and dads and kids and store clerks and farmers.

NYC_SKP

[blondeatlast]

12. That is a lovely thought. My ex-husband is Asian Indian,

but his coloring is rather light and for a long time he would not go out in without me (who has the coloring my username implies). My then sister-in-law is Muslim and she was terrified to go out in public.

It was a very scary time. Maybe, just maybe, it will end soon.

[Hissyspit]

26. Probably not.

It should, but it won't. Maybe someday. Probably not any time soon.

[stevenleser]

59. I think Rachael Maddow said it, but I could be wrong n/t

[one_voice]

9. Nope, not conflicted at all...

I don't like war or violence, but I also know I live in the "real" world and both happen with good reason. However, I'm glad that piece of shit is dead!!! Not conflicted at all.

[hlthe2b]

10. Yes... definitely.....

I am absolutely anti-death penalty, yet I was relieved. I was not celebratory, really, but relieved--thinking of the victims of 911-- that this part of the 911 story had come to a final conclusion. I was admittedly pleased that the Navy Seal team-- and most certainly the administration-- had succeeded after taking such a tremendous risk on so many levels.

I firmly believe those held in Gitmo should receive stateside trials in civilian courts, just as those responsible for the first WTC bombing had been, but that is where some major conflict and perhaps a bit of hypocrisy admittedly comes through. For OBL, such a trial and sentencing would have just been such an extreme and constant provocation for further retaliation for decades to come.... So again, the relief at how it turned out. Nonetheless, I do hope that they would have taken him alive if he had truly tried to surrender.


That said, I was extremely conflicted (and perhaps more so) for the way in which Sadam Hussein met his final days. I continue to be so.

[joshcryer]

11. No. I don't buy the fucking spectacle.

Will you remember the day Obama said they got Obama or will you be more inclined to remember the "confliction" that the media has created over this?

[Throd]

23. ???

[11 Bravo]

48. They got "Obama"? Which Fox affiliate do you work for?

[tallahasseedem]

13. Nope...

Not at all.

[JuniperLea]

14. I think we are on the same page here...

I've never really felt happy about this, except when I heard several people who had lost loved ones on 9/11 say it was helpful to them because they have suffered a long ten years without any form of closure whatsoever. I was glad for them, and I hoped this would go a long way toward helping the victims (the true victims are the survivors) come to grips with their loss.

Other than that, I feel like I did when Saddam Hussein was killed... I just don't like killing, no matter who does it. I'm not angry about the killing, I understand that the wars that were brought about because of OBL are a long way from being over, and I am quite angry at all the speculation and assumptions going on with regard to how this all went down... and of course, I'm sick of the Obama bashing... and now sick that he's not being given some credit.

I did enjoy some closure myself, and I'm laughing at the jokes... and only feeling just a little guilty at that laughter.

Mostly, I'm happy that he can do no harm to another living creature, and that his minions must be scared shitless because OBL was brought down... and they have no clue what else we know. I'm not afraid of retaliation for that reason. Who knows what we know?!

[nolabear]

15. Yes, of course. I'm relieved, and glad for and proud of Obama, but death closes all doors.

I felt considerable hatred for the man, and for what he masterminded, and for the fear that we now will feel forever. But killing another human being is a loss, of what might have been had he been captured, of the self-respect for simply not being a people that does that.

I take comfort in hoping that the aftermath will be handled with grace and generosity toward Muslims and that other governments will see the change as an opportunity to start anew.

[timesup]

16. Not conflicted

I am very glad that one of the worst human beings EVER is gone and can not assist or participate in the HARM of anyone else ever again.
That's about it and it's a HUGE story.
OBL was a billionaire's brat and this is the road HE chose?
Given the same advantages, I can't imagine becoming a leader of a murderous group who disguises its agenda behind a twisted interpretation of the Qur'an.

[patrice]

17. So much is lost to the inability to recognize our own limitations & biases.

I know this from experience.

[Edweird]

18. No. He has more than earned it.

[TK421]

19. I don't think this is appropriate to post here...why don't you start a new thread?

[blondeatlast]

20. ??? nt

[TK421]

27. this is a joke

:toast:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1028791&mesg_id=1028791

[blondeatlast]

31. Okay...

I just don't get it--sorry. :shrug:

[TK421]

32. sorry, but it would mean you having to suffer through that thread I linked

[blondeatlast]

37. Ah, I see. thanks for the link--gonna just stay away from that one. nt

[BobbyBoring]

24. HUH?

What am I missing?

[TK421]

28. this is a joke

:toast:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1028791&mesg_id=1028791

[SheilaT]

21. I'm appalled at the dancing in the streets

as if this were a third world country.

[piedmont]

22. Not in the least. But not all that jumping up and down about it. Just glad it finally happened. nt

[Ready4Change]

25. I'm near your age, not conflicted.

I'm not dancing in the streets. Nor am I raging against this act. I would have preferred a live capture and trial, but realize that the chaos of world politics on the large scale, and combat tactics on the small scale, meant that live capture was, at best, unlikely. The current 'controversy' is predictable, given our bipolar political climate, and I don't think any of it means a damn thing. It will be months before we settle into the story of what happened, if ever, and even then some will claim that to be false.

But I've no problem with OBL being killed. To my mind it is a far better way to fight a war against terror than, as examples, what we have done in Afghanistan and Iraq. We should target the specific people responsible, rather than the infrastructures that support populations who may or may not have anything to do with anything.

[AlabamaLibrul]

29. I am not conflicted at all -- I support this less, the more the truth comes out

there are serious questions of extralegal execution here.

[EFerrari]

30. That sounds right to me.

:)

[randr]

33. Two quotes that helped me yesterday

Mark Twain---"I generally do not speak ill of others but I have enjoyed an obituary or more".
Confucius----"Before you start out on the path of revenge dig two graves".

[dorkulon]

34. Nope.

I'm against both wars, but was never against getting OBL; that would be pacifism to the point of suicide. To say "killing is wrong in all cases" strikes me as pretty naive. In this case, if the reports are true that he was firing on our guys, it was doubly justified. But even if this was a straight-up execution it's OK with me. It's not like he ever thought twice about sparing his own victims.

[quinnox]

35. Nope

Nothing to be conflicted about. "Don't judge what other people's reactions are" has been a well used talking point. Why not? So I'm supposed to pretend I find the basest human instinct of blood lust and revenge as admirable? Understandable given the circumstances, sure. Something to be admired? Not gonna happen from my point of view.

[blondeatlast]

40. I don't think much of it is really motivated by "blood lust and revenge."

I think a great many Americans took the 9/11 attacks very personally and we're emotional, flawed creatures. That's just the kind of polarized thinking I'm trying to get past here.

Maybe I didn't explain my own position too well--but I'll say this much; I bet a LOT of Americans are closer to my position than the ultra-pacifist or the ultra-war hawks and it seems that those are the only two positions having a say at DU. I'd like to explore the discomfort in the middle.

[quinnox]

45. I agree

I think the majority would be in your position.

[seabeyond]

36. i think obama and the seals handled it perfectly. i couldnt suggest any better

outcome, all the way around, as a whole

obl created the mess. you play, you pay.

i dont celebrate. i dont dance. (and ya, i noticed just a tad celebrte from you, wink). i dont care. i have no attachment to obl existence one way or another.

[fujiyama]

38. I wouldn't say I've felt conflicted

but upon reflecting a bit, I can understand why some would consider the celebrations themselves crass or unseemly. I don't quite agree, because I understand the impact Bin Laden had on the country's psyche (and in particular that of DC and NYC), but I can see their point of view...I've also come to be even more disgusted in the RW and their inability to give the president ANY credit whatsoever.

Personally, I'm glad we can close this chapter and I really hope this nation finds a way to wrap up the wars and focus on our problems at home.

[Bunny]

39. I'm okay with the bastard being dead, and how it transpired (as we know it now).

I think extreme action had to be taken, and that they killed him instead of capturing him is something I'm not really conflicted about.

Some of the 'celebrating' around here has been a little creepy, though. I suspect that there are a couple of people who are typing with one hand while they lovingly discuss their fantasies of how bin Laden died. It's fucking skeevy.

[Canuckistanian]

41. Hey, closure is fine

It's the end of an era. With a finality that's indisputable.

But instead of mourning losses, some are revelling in the annihilation of a human life. That's wrong. I find that attitude disheartening.

Why can't we celebrate the continuance of decent values, like legal justice and the moral correctness of having done the right thing?

You wanted to kill bin Laden? Fine. Then arrest, convict and sentence him. THEN kill him. I'd have a helluva lot more respect for THAT.

[FLPanhandle]

42. Not in the least.

No ethical problem here. Glad the SOB isn't sucking up oxygen anymore.

[skepticscott]

43. Conflicted about whether this was

the right thing to do...no.

Regretful that the world has become the type of place where it was the right thing to do...yes

[Dappleganger]

44. Nope, not at all.

[mcar]

46. Not conflicted at all

[blogslut]

47. Not conflicted - Just sad

All the death and wasted time and treasure...

[Kurovski]

49. I feel no strong emotions about OBL being gone. I thought he was gone already.

Almost anti-climactic. I suffered no enormous personal loss, so I find no need of that personal catharsis.

Like you, I'm against the death penalty . I think it is ridiculously flawed and abused and used for racist purposes...which brings me to my one caveat: when world leaders/tyrants/dictators are found guilty of crimes against humanity, or crimes that result in massive deaths that came about due to purposeful treacherous, clear machinations, I think the death penalty should be an option. Burden of proof would be tough, and Europe wouldn't have it...so ain't gonna happen

But...They have been getting away with it for too long in some quarters and they know there is nothing to stop them. So, in those cases I believe it would help as a deterrent. Truly. Barring that I'd like to see it made easier for the world to bring those kinds of criminals up for trial.

[Cid_B]

50. I'm green with envy...

and wish I could have been there.

[Throd]

51. I know why I should be, but I'm not. I'd have shot him myself.

[DevonRex]

52. He chose his death by the way he chose to conduct his life.

I was conflicted about mcveigh but I shed no tears for him when he died.

[MH1]

54. Not at all.

He had to be taken down, the people given the task did what they had to do, and I won't second guess them. OBL was an evil fuck and I'm glad he's gone.

[pipi_k]

55. I'm conflicted most of the time

and it sucks.

It must be real easy to be one of those black or white types.

It's either this or that.

All you have to do is pick a side and defend it.


Sometimes I have very strong opinions on one side or another, but more often I feel sort of uncomfortable actually choosing a side.

I'm against the death penalty, but...

People should be able to smoke wherever, but....

What's known as The Nanny State sucks, but...

We shouldn't gravedance on OBL, but...


there's always a "but" someplace, it seems. :(

[clyrc]

60. Me too

It's much harder to find something I'm not conflicted on than the reverse.

[JohnnyLib2]

56. Yes, and thank you for the thread.

Conflicted, ambivalent, unsettled. And also thinking I'd rather be this way, aware that the answers aren't always clear or easy.

Rec.

[alarimer]

57. Yes, mostly because I know it won't make a damn bit of difference.

The terrorists are still out there (or at least the warmongers keep telling us they are). We lost one bogeyman but I guess they will have to dredge up another to keep us scared and compliant. I keep hoping that this death will lead to a groundswell of calls to end the bullshit occupations we are engaged it but I doubt it.

I actually saw one report that claimed torture got the information needed for this to happen. I certainly hope that wasn't the case.

I have always had a visceral hatred of flag-waving and "rah-rah USA! USA!" cheering no matter the context. And right now, I am appalled at how bloodthirsty people appear to be. There is no nuance, no possible reflection that our very policies are the ones that lead to terrorism in the first place, to some degree at least. Of course Americans don't do nuance.