I am disgusted...totally disgusted.

[Skidmore]

We could work together to get put Demcrats in the Congress and the White House and we can't agree on a goddamned thing now. We are not joining together to arrive at a consensus and the only thing we are accomplishing is adding fuel to the flames that the RW is stoking. Next election, where do you think we'll be? Standing around looking confused because we don't have a cohesive message to give to the people? Still trying to prop up the same gasbags who've been in it too long to understand where we are? Still beating down the neocons? I'm just disgusted to the core. By the time y'all get done nitpicking, there will be a lot more suffering in this world and a lot less justice. And who's fault will it be this time? OURS. Dammit! OURS.

Can we not have one constructive discussion on these boards any longer that we can take to our representatives? Can we not arrive at some common ground and quit seeing everything in stark opposition?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. It's hard to demand consensus and civility and striving for the common good...

...when we ourselves constantly insult, belittle and castigate each other.

So many people here seem so angry all the time. Nevermind the fact that its counter productive it would make my stomach hurt to be that angry all the time.

When I first got here I snapped at a couple people and I've deeply regretted it ever since and I'm trying to do better. I know deep down inside we're working for the same things.

Even the RW'ers: I may not agree with anything they have but I think most are sincere, albeit sincerely wrong.

I'm trying to see the good in people. Valuing people is a progressive trait in my book. If I'm to promote peace I need to be peaceful. If I want friends I have to be friendly.

:hug:

[Hamlette]

4. I'd like to have a civil discussion as to why that is

I'm thinking part of it is the medium. Someone pisses me off online and I feel free to escalate which I would NEVER do face to face. The ignore button syndrome.

Part of it is we don't have social interactions outside our political/social circle. The "Bowling Alone" syndrome. We never get to know republicans in a setting where they are not being republicans, like in a bridge club or bowling league so we completely identify each other by politics. Why/how did that happen? In Europe they recognized the problem and made some efforts to change it (there are free bridge clubs all over Europe in public buildings. The gov't made this possible in an effort to bridge the divide between ppl. I'm sure there are other things but I come from a bridge playing family and all my close relatives lived in Europe at one time or another and said it saved their sanity.)

My defense is to spend less time here.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. True. I think a certain level of bravado comes with

...the anonymity the internet provides. My BF says the internet let's people say things at long distance to other people that they would never say in arm's reach. He avoids it almost altogether.

I dunno about bridge clubs though. Next weekend I'm putting in an appearnace at the BF's family's house for the holiday. They're very active in their church* and conservative in their politics. I know for a fact they are VERY disapproving of me and the BF having sex. I don't see them wanting to sit down and play cards with a "loose woman" like me. They barely let my BF's younger sister talk to me, they would send her off to play elsewhere or do chores.

Still, we should at least strive not to tear our fellow progressives apart.




* I originally wrote "They're fundies". Then it struck me how mean that sounds. As the old saying goes: we can disagree without being disagreeable. I've used that term in the past; I think I need to change.

[Hamlette]

8. funny you should mention

one wing of my extended family is Mormon. One day my sister said "fuck" at the bridge table and Aunt Grace got up and left (my mother who was also playing had said "there's a simple four letter word for this situation" meaning "pass" and my sister deadpanned "fuck" it was REALLY funny in context but maybe not in translation).

But Gracie was back in a couple of hours.

I would NEVER have liked/known my Aunt Grace and she would have hated all us "Greers" (the bigger, atheist part of the family) had it not been for the common language of bridge. Bridge is hard to learn (but the best game in the world) and I have a closet full of other games which I still bring out when I can't bridge the gap. Honestly, you might try it. Do they play Risk? Buy them a game for Christmas and sit down and play it with them. It is SO MUCH better than talking! They might find they even like you.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. I dunno about playing Monopoly with a bunch of conservatives...

...that'd be like having a breath-holding contest with dead people...they'd be naturals at it!

Ditto Risk or Stratego.

I'd suggest Uno but they would probably try to "Press 1 for English."

[Hamlette]

13. oh, you just need to get the competitive spirit

Monopoly or Risk, I turn into a greedy war monger. When its all in fun, its fun.

[davidpdx]

29. Your sister sounds funny

Never played bridge, but used to play Pinochle. I haven't played it in years and I'm sure I've forgotten. It would be nice to actually sit down to a group of people and play a game that is social rather then spending my time on the drudgery of the internet. It's amazing how fast we forget what socializing is like?

[joeglow3]

9. Politics is Washington has gotten nasty

I was watching an interview with a couple Senators (one retired). The retired one talked of all the friends he had in the other party. He told stories of how they fought like hell on the floor and then went out to dinner afterwards. The current Senator basically said that does not happen at all today.

I can't who the Senators or where I saw it, but it was about a year or so ago.

[Sinti]

11. +1 civility and respect it's the gift that keeps on giving

Civility is as contagious as rudeness. If we act exactly as we wish others to act, generally (not always) they will reflect our own approach. The biggest gift we could give to those who wish to maintain the status quo is to behave rudely, and allow division to happen between us. When you're rude, people don't listen to what you say, they just think you're an @$$.

If I was working for GOPAC or another GOP institution, I would do everything in my power to make Democrats fight with Democrats - I'd probably even send in my own troops to create divisions everywhere I could, both from the left/progressive and from the right/conservative side. Just saying...

[Skidmore]

12. Exactly. Thank you.

[tabatha]

2. It seems that in the US today

(I have seen it locally, too), that disagreements are nasty and destructive, and that other opinions are not tolerated, even when they may have some validity.

You are spot on.

[man4allcats]

3. Please define, in the context of your views,

1.) nit-picking

2.) constructive discussion

3.) common ground

4.) stark opposition


edit for typo

[notesdev]

6. Our representatives?

I'm not sure we actually have any. Maybe a handful, but most of our legislators represent their big donors, not people like you and me.

[treestar]

7. We're watching sausage being made and complaining about it

Rather than just letting it get done or at least helping rather than complaining that we don't like the way it's done.

K&R

[Amimnoch]

14. Please look closer at the threads and you'll see...

that there are plenty of posts with civil discourse. You really just have to look at the posts between the 3 or 4 people that are going back and fourth at each others throats with the vicious posts.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. We should...

...encourage those 3 or 4 people to be more civil...not to abandon their principles but simply to restating their positions in more civil tones.

BTW - welcome to DU you big meathead!

I kid! I kid!

:hug:

[mullard12ax7]

16. I've got one, HOLD WAR CRIMINALS ACCOUNTABLE

There's obviously no law that pertains to the elite as long as torturers and people who successfully conspired to commit war are free among us. These are the worst crimes ever committed by any political group in United States history.

Now watch a shitload of troll-sounding names attack me.

[Number23]

17. Rec'd. I'm having a hard time deciding which non-troversy has made posters on DU look crazier

lately.

The massive blowup by some over Obama's bow to the emperor of Japan.

The "it's Obama's fault that the NYC Board of Health gave out swine flu vaccinations to investment banks" as if he had any control over that whatsoever.

The idiotic hyperventilations over Dana Perino being appointed to the Broadcasting Board of Governors, a group that I'm sure that 99.75% of the people here had never even heard of until yesterday. (If this group was as "powerful" and "well known" as some are trying to pretend that it is, the folks complaining would have already known that Republicans have to be appointed to this body.) One poster actually ran around calling Perino a "whore" several times yesterday.

There are soooo many others but I just don't have the energy to type out anymore. I don't have the slightest idea what is going on around here anymore. The level of hate towards this man, the instant "stark opposition" that you mentioned to EVERY SINGLE THING THAT HE DOES is so far beyond what he's actually done or NOT done that it really, truly makes you have to wonder just what the hell is going on around here.

[HughMoran]

27. I rec your post

What the hell is going on around here? What can we feel good about any more? What does all the bickering accomplish? It sucks.

[butterfly77]

18. I know what you mean but,,,

those damn bluedogs have got to go or they have to be shown that we mean business..

[Clio the Leo]

19. It is my hope......

.... that because of the importance of this bill, some of the hold outs are holding out so they can get their political palms greased (not financially, but legislatively.) Get something they want now or down the line. That's part of it anyway.

There are others, who's frustration/anger centers around the abortion issue who, on BOTH sides are being a bit more hard headed than I think I would be. The both need to come up with something that they can all live with and quit pointing fingers. The greater bill is far too important.

So I HOPE that the behavior we're seeing around this bill is a bit of an anomaly and that, as a general rule, there will be more consensus on legislation down the line.

We shall see.

But yes .... "We hang together or will all hang separately" is the motto of the moment.

[Orsino]

20. Don't worry about apparent disunity on one little message board.

It shouldn't be assigned any more meaning than should the spats over on Free Republic.

As with the entire rest of the Internet, you have to sift through a lot to get at the significant stuff.

[SoCalDem]

21. This is the problem democrats always have. Our "base" is not really a base

We have so many diverse parts of our party, and have so many issues that have been neglected for so many decades, that we always have trouble getting things done.

Democrats have always been about getting things done for the people, while republicans have always been about NOT doing things. It's a lot easier to NOT do something, than it is to DO things.

If you make up your mind to get your first car, you have to decide on what brand, what color, how many horsepower..you have to worry about car payments and their effect on your budget, how long the payments will last..what if you lose your job before the car's paid for..will you be able to afford higher insurance for it , where you'll park it, will someone try to steal it..what if you have a car-wreck & ruin it. It's so much easier to just decide to NOT get a car, and to have Mom keep driving you where you need to go...or to borrow her car for free.

Democrats have historically taken the leaps of faith necessary, to try and improve the lives of millions of people...people who will not even vote for them..people they will never meet.

Because our base has become more diffuse throughout the years, it's harder and harder to herd all those cats into a unified group. Legislators have turned government into a zero-sum "game", so if MY group "gets" something, it usually means that "your" group will now get less. Taxation to pay for what's needed, has turned into a BAD thing, instead of a necessary thing.

If we ran our families like that, we'd have a pretty chaotic family-life. Imagine that you never got any raises from the time your first child is born.. Your expenses keep going up, but there's no extra money coming in..and you end up with 3 or 4 kids, and the same income you had before you had ANY kids. They all want things and need stuff, and maybe they want to go to college too..how on earth do you pay for all those things, and keep everyone happy , fed, housed, clothed, etc? Each kid thinks his/her needs are the most important, and anytime you give something to kid#1, that means that kids 2,3,4 get less. That does not make for harmony, does it?

It's even worse for legislators, because they get to vote "Daddy/Mommy" out of office every so often if their needs are not met.

[Fire1]

23. That's another way to look at it but it doesn't help us. n/t

[SoCalDem]

28. That's the sad thing.. It cannot be "fixed"

It can only be helped by having a large enough majority so that a minority within the majority cannot derail legislation.

1962 dems led 66-34
1964 dems led 68-32 in the senate
1966 dems led 64-36 in the senate
1968 dems led 62-38

1970 dems led 54-44 (1 conservative,1 independent)
1972 dems led 56-42
1974 dems led 61-38
1976 dems led 61-38

1980 dems LOST 46-53
1982 dems LOST 46-54
1984 dems LOST 47-53
1986 dems led 54-46
1988 dems led 55-45

1990 dems led 56-44
1992 dems led 56-44
1994 dems LOST 48-52
1996 dems LOST 45-55
1998 dems LOST 45-55

2000 dems TIED 50-50
2002 dems LOST 49-50 (1 independent)
2004 dems LOST 49-50 (1 independent)
2006 dems won 51-49

[Fire1]

22. According to a great majority on this site, if you show solidarity

you're a kool-aid drinker. Misguided as they may be, that's one thing I admire about the teabaggers. They stick together in their stupidity and even they know a house divided will never stand.

[flyarm]

24. "THE DEATH OF WHY?" BY Andrea Batista Schlesinger.. GO READ IT!

The Death Of Why? The Decline of Questioning and the future of Democracy..do yourself a favor and the rest of us and go read the book! You sincerely need it!

The day i stop questioning our leaders and everything they do , i no longer am an American and i will no longer give a damn or rats ASS ABOUT MY COUNTRY..AND I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHO THEY ARE!

[jillan]

25. We're Democrats - this is what we do.

Walk around every corner rather than walk a straight line to victory and often eat our own.

[HughMoran]

26. It's infuriating, isn't it?

There's nothing I can say here that won't be attacked, so I can only say that I agree with you.