"if you are a Democratic President, Black people in this country have your back."

[Pirate Smile]

African-American Liberals Know How to Love Their President

By Keith Humphreys

Jonathan Chait’s much-discussed essay in New York magazine indicted the left for being perennially, loudly and unrealistically disappointed in Democratic Presidents. In Chait’s view, much of the left ignores the constraints on Presidential power (e.g., Congress, of which Drew Westen et al seem to be in ignorance) and doesn’t have the stomach or attention span for the slow, daily grind of governance. He also charges the left with crippling their own leaders with faithlessness and then blaming them when they are thereby forced to compromise with the other side. Chait sees these patterns as almost entirely independent of Obama, being instead a style, outlook and set of norms among liberals that goes back for decades. In short, "Liberals are dissatisfied with Obama because liberals, on the whole, are incapable of feeling satisfied with a Democratic president. They can be happy with the idea of a Democratic president—indeed, dancing-in-the-streets delirious—but not with the real thing."

-snip-
All of this is true of a certain type of liberal in the U.S., but I wish Chait and Kristof had taken the time to exempt from criticism the most stalwart segment of liberal America: African-Americans. Perpetually indignant white liberals could learn a lot from them.

-snip-
But all that said, my own question of why Blacks so love Obama elides the broader reality evidenced by their very high approval ratings of a white Democratic President, Bill Clinton. Blacks have a special place in the hearts for Barack Obama, but fundamentally, if you are a Democratic President, Black people in this country have your back.



What Some White Liberals Could Learn From Black Liberals

Many white progressives have remained loyal to the President they elected. But imagine the situation if all white liberals were as consistently supportive of their Presidents as are Black liberals. President Obama would currently be assured of easy re-election and the Congress would know it, making his negotiating hand infinitely stronger. Democratic donors could re-direct money to Congressional races secure in the knowledge that Obama’s re-election was a lock. Instead, like all Democratic Presidents, Barack Obama knows he is leading an army in which some of the troops (as Chait notes) were calling him a traitor even before he got sworn in and an increasing number are looking to abandon the field. In that situation, a rational commander looks for an accommodation with the other side because he can’t win with a half-committed army versus a fully-committed one. A subset of white liberals are thus creating the conditions for their own disappointment, and for that of those white and black liberals who have kept the faith.

Why aren’t white liberals as consistently supportive of their Presidents as Black liberals? Despite massive, heroic progress in racial equality in the United States, white people still get their way more often or not. And it’s easy to get used to that. Black people, even highly accomplished Black people, are more aware that all change is resisted, good things don’t happen without years of sustained work, and that often you have to work twice as hard to get half as much. They don’t expect a yellow pony for a birthday present and thus they don’t feel that someone has failed them when it isn’t delivered giftwrapped to their door. That makes them the grown-ups of the American left, whom the hold-your-nose set would do well to emulate.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2011/12/africanamerican_liberals_know033985.php

[Solomon]

1. What a coincidence! See what I said here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2453094&mesg_id=2453507

[Pirate Smile]

14. Yeah - Swede posted it as its own thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2454294

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Number23]

16. Solomon, man you are becoming my freaking HERO around here

You have been absolutely KILLING it for a while now. Please know you have some serious admirers around here! :loveya: :loveya:

I made a similar comment a few weeks ago in response to the initial Chait piece. I made the distinction that black liberals have had this president's back LOUDLY and OFTEN.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=819680&mesg_id=820031

[Solomon]

18. Kind of you to say. I don't post nearly as much as I used to.

People can't handle it, so I just stay quiet. But sometimes I get so fed up with the double standard around here. What Obama is facing is the same shit on a larger scale that we have to deal with in our jobs, etc. every damned day. The constant micro-managing and looking over your shoulder and not respecting your work because you're a black manager. They don't really mean to do it intentionally. They just can't help themselves. It's ingrained. Just like fish can't see the water they swim in.

Years ago my tag line was this: "If you do not understand White Supremacy (Racism) -- what it is, and how it works -- everything else you understand, will only confuse you." -- Neeley Fuller, Jr. (1971)

I changed it because some people just can't deal with that. I try to keep my mouth shut but there's so much shit flying around here it's hard.

[Number23]

29. Love that Fuller quote

I was saying something similar for a while -- never underestimate the power of racism. I say that alot even in my real life.

It is very difficult for some to understand that SO MUCH of the BS that does on in the world is due to the belief that some people's lives mean more or less than others solely because of the color of their skin. When you add other factors (gender, education, wealth etc.) these other factors are like layers of salt being put on a gaping wound.

But you really have been great around here. I have particularly enjoyed some of your posts in GD in the last few months. And you know which ones I'm talking about. :)

[Empowerer]

47. Hear hear to the nth power!

This cannot be said enough, even if those who most need to know it refuse to listen.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

2. Black liberal chiming in, miffed that we all stood behind Clinton and every single

White Democratic president, but the larger Democratic party can't do the same. And then when I think about all those polls that came out during the 2008 primaries and how people who I thought were allies showed a different face, I now understand.

[tblue]

7. A lot of liberals complained about Clinton.

It has nothing to do with race. Almost all WHITE liberals voted for Obama. That's terrible to say they are racist now.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

10. Where did I assert racism? Either you're living I the Twighlight Zone, or you've forgotten the prima

which was a very racially charged period then. I was out in the streets of Philly and saw with my own two eyes. Dont get me wrong there was nastiness all around. But you can't fault me for what were MY experiences.

And the larger point is this: black Americans tend to support Democrats regardless of race. Asking most liberals to do the same, just as they did for Bill Clinton wh created a lot of present day problems, isn't a tall order. I just feel that it's unfair not to give this president another term, when the party supported Clinton. I'm sure that liberals had issues with Clinton. I'm one of them, but there are too many liberals who are vowing not to support Obama which I think is unfair, not to mention self destructive!!

[tblue]

25. Obama's not a liberal.

That's what's unfair. And the people I feel for and will fight for are the ones without jobs and without homes. I don't pity politicians. I just don't feel that way about any of them. All I care about is what they do for those who need their help most. Obama falls short by a long shot. It's not my fault. If he didn't we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

31. Reading comprehension is essential! I DID NOT say or imply that Obama is liberal!!

What I said is that LIBERALS ended up supporting Bill Clinton who WAS NOT a liberal!! And despite all the shit he took the party through!!

[tblue]

52. Did I say you said he was a liberal?

Why do you keep thinking I attribute the words I write to you?

This is getting strange. You gonna scream at me some more about you not saying the sentence I just typed?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

60. Re-read what you wrote, my friend. We're on the same side, but I think you are angry

at the WRONG person!

The point of the thread is that black Americans have been supporting DEMOCRATIC presidents, even when they did things that embarrassed themselves and/or the country. All many of us are asking is why this president deserves to be treated differently.

[tblue]

72. I stand by what I said. Maybe you should re-read it and

stop taking things personally. I don't mean you any harm or hurt at all. I am not angry at anybody. You keep accusing me of attributing my words to you. It's not about you. Really, it's not.

There are plenty of reasons for people to do what they do. There is no way in the world you or I or Obama can stop that. If you open your mind and ears and eyes, you may understand.

You probably don't want to see my list of why I feel about Obama as I do and I don't feel a need to put you through it. It's not pretty and you will not like it. If you want to know why, though, I will gladly enumerate.

If people tell you why, will you still say you wonder? There have been plenty of posts on DU that explain precisely why. It's no mystery. So why there's this vague unknowing, I can't figure out unless people just want to dismiss what others say. And if that's the case and you really don't want an answer, then stop asking why. I mean, really.

[Pirate Smile]

13. That article in no way says that white liberals have abandoned Obama because of race.

It points out that it is just what they do to Democratic Presidents while Black Dems don't abandon Democratic Presidents. Black Dems didn't abandon Pres. Clinton & they wont abandon Pres. Obama.


edit to add - Ahhh - I see it was a response to a poster and not the OP.

[tavalon]

36. So mindless support is now an admirable trait?

If I wanted to mindlessly support, whether right or wrong, I would be a Republican.

I know whites and blacks have similar discernment abilities, so I am left to question why blacks support Democratic candidates, no matter what?

[Pirate Smile]

41. What you insultingly call "mindless", the article says is the result of knowing how long it takes to

actually enact change and how strenuously it is resisted by the other side. A realization of the impediments society resurrects to combat moves toward greater equality doesn't seem mindless. It frequently ends up being more realistic. Apparently, turning on your allies when they don't move or succeed as quickly you like isn't a tactic a large portion of the Black Community believes would be effective for them.

[treestar]

22. But they enthusiastically campaigned for and supported Clinton

for a second term.

[tblue]

26. I can't even remember back that far.

I guess they liked him.

Maybe it's the internet and more info gets out than used to, ya know? That could account for the reasons some of us seem to micromanage. We follow every step, we know when decisions are pending and what the options are, and we see the result and often feel punched in the stomach. Maybe you used to couldn't do that. What do you think, treestar? I'm trying to figure out if there's an explanation for this 'theory,' if it's even worth bothering.

What in the world difference could it make today what people did for Bill Clinton 15 years ago?

[treestar]

49. Well we are responding to subthread about it

And the Democratic Presidents are often compared.

[tavalon]

35. Thank you

So much of our valid criticism is discounted by saying that I'm racist. It's an automatic shut down around here and it isn't okay. As well, I don't see what is so damn great about supporting a President, right or wrong because of their race or their political party or really any damn thing. When my party acts foolish or anyone in the party acts foolish, I will call them to account just as I do with Newt Gingrich. Just because the ground is so much more fertile over there doesn't mean Democratic soil is fallow.

[Empowerer]

48. +1

[Lionessa]

50. I guess non-black liberals don't want the results for us that Obama has offered blacks.

He's done nothing for them at all that I can see. Their unemployment has gone even more out of whack since Obama took office, the war on drugs is still disproportionately laid upon blacks, innocent blacks are still incarcerated at a much higher rate, guilty ones get longer times and harder sentences still, and so on.
really tout the idea of mimicking them.

[Cigar11]

3. I guess if you don’t call potential voters,

Brainwashed and Lazy, it’s a good chance they’ll take you seriously and possibly Vote for you … Amazing what showing a little respect can do.

[Tarheel_Dem]

4. My only regret is that I can only rec this once.

:applause:


:patriot:


:kick:

[CoffinEd]

5. Co-sign the first two comments

And I totally agree with this observation:

"...and how people who I thought were allies showed a different face, I now understand."

Tell me about it.

[tblue]

6. I am just as black as Obama, but you lost me at 'yellow pony.'

Tell me the people facing foreclosures WANT A YELLOW PONY!!!

That is about the STUPIDEST article I have ever read.

"Black people are happy with crumbs. White people complain about crumbs. Why can't white people be more like crumb-loving black people?' Are you kidding me?

I think the divide is simpler than that. Some people, black AND white, realize the dire straits this country is in, and they do not see it repaired by half-measures. And they do not consider greater efforts as a 'yellow pony.' Others think the system we have is still salvageable and approve of half-measures, or they call the half-measures 'reform.'

Don't tell me what I think. And don't even try to tell me what I would do if I was president. Don't presume to understand when you say RIDICULOUS things like 'yellow pony.'
(I mean that for the writer of that article, not you, Pirate Smile.)

[Tarheel_Dem]

8. "I am just as black as Obama". So is Herman Cain.

;)

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

9. While I understand your point of view, you act as though there is but one branch of government

The foreclosure crisis is much more complicated than you are implying. I work for HUD, and we have tried all kinds of innovative approaches to keep people I their houses. The problem? HUD, as part of the Executive Branch can only do so much. It takes the private industry--the banks--who refuse to work with the administration. It takes Congress--the Legislative Branch--to use its Powers of the Purse to support these programs. We have had absolutely NO cooperation with the banks or with Congress. I'm baffled as to why this is so difficult for some people to understand. Presidential powers are VERY limited. The Republicans serving in Congress know this, and they also know that when we fail, sadly Americans tend to blame Democrats (this is what Barney Frank was discussing just last week). If Americans only understood that the economic conditions that we're in are VERY complicated and go way beyond the president, I think they would be a bit more reasonable. We're not going to get out of this situation overnight, as a result.

[Pirate Smile]

11. The President wanted to do more things to help but they required Congressional action &

Congress wouldn't do it. People think he can just magically give himself new powers. He can't.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

12. Speaking from firsthand experience, you know I agree with you. You can't begin to

understand just how frustrated we in federal government have been trying to solve this economic crisis only to have Congress spit in our faces for political reasons!!!

[Number23]

17. Damn. Exactly what about the phrase "yellow pony" gets you so riled up?

[russspeakeasy]

27. "half measures" sums it up for me.

[Blasphemer]

81. Thank you

It fascinates how the race-based argument continues to shift. First it was about white liberals abandoning Obama. Well, history shows that they "abandoned" other Democratic presidents (and presidential candidates) as well. Now the argument is that privileged white liberals need to be as willing to be as accepting of "half-measures" as black liberals have been. Really? That's where this debate is going? I have family members who criticize Obama and I can feel how hard it is for them. They don't want to be in that position with Dems in general, and Obama in particular, but the system is just that broken. I will always maintain that considering the economy at the time, Clinton dealt with worse criticism and had far fewer people defending him. If he had this kind of economy, his re-election chances would have been nil. The fact that Obama will likely win again makes it very hard for me to understand all the wagon circling. There is criticism, yes. Criticism that will prevent an electoral victory? Highly unlikely. So why the need to inform white liberals of what they need to learn from black liberal? Why the need to keep everyone in line? The reaction to criticism of Obama just does not seem to line up with reality.

[Number23]

15. "That makes them the grown-ups of the American left"

"whom the hold-your-nose set would do well to emulate."

Oh SNAP!!! :wow: :spray: :spray:

I can hear the exploding heads from here!!!

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

20. Republicans don't get it

They think they can trot out a Cain and therefore "peel off" some black voters.

Er, no Republicans. A Democrat votes for Democrats, not just based on race.

[Enrique]

21. white liberals should emulate hispanics

who protested Obama's record deportations, and were successful in changing it.

Leading up to that reversal, a lot of hispanic activists were warning the White House, "we're having serious problems coming up with reasons to give people to vote for you." People were saying it enough that it finally got their attention and they eased off big time on the deportations, this happened around August or so of this year.

If hispanics had been as loyal, aka willing to be taken for granted, as this author wants white liberals to be, the deportations would still be going on at those very high rates.

[treestar]

23. Deportations provided for under the law

are not the problem, the law is. Obama would sign an amnesty. How in the world would anyone who wants fewer deportations have a hard time supporting the Democrats and Obama in the upcoming election? Republicans are all tripping over themselves and flip flopping to be as anti immigrant as possible to get that section of the vote.

All these state immigration laws, and its hard to vote for Obama because he carries out the law that does exist? Messed up priorities there.

[Enrique]

24. are you aware of what happened with the deportations?

the facts contradict your theory. In fact Obama did change the policy, without Congress.

[Vattel]

30. Didn't you get the memo?

When it's bad, Obama has nothing to do with it; when it's good, it was all Obama.

[PragmaticLiberal]

38. From my perspective it seems to be the other way around.

:shrug:

[Vattel]

44. In reality, of course, there's plenty of both.

[treestar]

33. Yes, I am

http://www.immigrantjustice.org/blog/obama_prosecutorial_discretion_announcement

[11 Bravo]

28. And if you're a greedy, rich, prick the Republicans have YOUR back.

Is it breaking news that people tend to support politicians who have their best interests at heart?

[Vattel]

32. Pop sociology is so lame. Just read this crap:

"Why aren’t white liberals as consistently supportive of their Presidents as Black liberals? Despite massive, heroic progress in racial equality in the United States, white people still get their way more often or not. And it’s easy to get used to that. Black people, even highly accomplished Black people, are more aware that all change is resisted, good things don’t happen without years of sustained work, and that often you have to work twice as hard to get half as much. They don’t expect a yellow pony for a birthday present and thus they don’t feel that someone has failed them when it isn’t delivered giftwrapped to their door. That makes them the grown-ups of the American left, whom the hold-your-nose set would do well to emulate."

Hypothesis: For the most part white liberal critics of Obama are dissatisfied with his performance because they are spoiled by getting their way more often than not.

Empirical research? Actual evidence for this bold hypothesis? None needed. The armchair is the perfect place to construct this sweeping vision of the source of white liberal dissatisfaction with Democratic presidents. Pathetic.

[babylonsister]

34. I love the topic because it initiates discussion.

For me, intelligence rules, I don't care about color.

Rec'd.

[great white snark]

37. Very much agree.

Mr Humphreys' article has spawned great debate..some ugly but some damn brilliant.

[Vattel]

43. But armchair sociology of this sort isn't very intelligent.

If you explain white liberal dissatisfaction with Obama by appeal to the claim that white liberals have been spoiled by so often getting what they want, then you should have evidence to back that up. Otherwise it is just the sort of speculative bullshit that teapartiers prefer to science and serious argument.

[certainot]

39. there's another factor- liberals are almost completely unaware of the power of RW talk radio to

to dominate many aspects of politics and media and therefore underestimate the same way.

the talk radio problem magnifies this underestimation because as it is ignored it also emboldens and enables the new irrational pro 1% republicans.

good one.

[certainot]

40. PS only the herman cains and clarence thomases listen to limbaugh

[scentopine]

42. I'm white, Obama is as much white as black and I don't like him...

because he doesn't represent me.

Torture should be criminalized.

We don't need warrantless surveillance of citizens

Net neutrality is not for sale to AT&T no matter how badly you need their campaign cash, not even for a quid pro quo for sending our emails to NSA and CIA.

Wall Street should be held accountable

Massive escalation in Afghanistan is a mistake

Deep water drilling and consequences have been disaster

Outsourcing to unregulated labor markets in Asia has stunted technological growth and innovation in USA

on and on

This debate is so stupid.

For example - if you are a poor impoverished nation populated by darker skinned people geographically located in an oil rich area, you are far more likely to be slaughtered by our bombs and guns despite your innocence.

If you are a rich white Wall Street CEO who makes his living cheating retirees out of their pension plans while causing world wide economic disaster, you are less likely to be prosecuted. In fact, you will be rewarded with tax payer cash for your crimes.

So to me, on the surface Obama surely seems racist. But we are smarter than that. Right?

How we govern on these core values (a partial list is above) determines the type of life we leave for the next generations. And it looks every bit as bleak as when Obama took office.

(I'm also sick of the threats about President Perry. If Obama loses to Perry or Newt, etc it's his fault, not mine - democratic leadership needs to take personal responsibility for their failures)

If you vote for Obama it means he represents you. Otherwise there are more liberal alternatives, both white and black. I don't want to throw my vote away on a democrat or republican no matter his self-identified race.

Obama is as much white as he is black and he hasn't earned my vote. If you like him great. If you don't, like me, then don't vote for him.

When you vote for someone who refuses to respect the values you believe are important as the foundation of a safe and secure society for all Americans, you undermine democracy.

If you think Obama has lived up to his promises, even as Wall Street is playing him like a chump, then that's your right to vote for him and it's my right to vote for someone else

The new democratic party prefers only one color - green. And lots of it.

[certainot]

45. you must be new to politics, or an uncompromising principled godlike creature

with no clue what the republicans have been doing for the last 30 years.

[scentopine]

46. democrats and republicans are children of a common wall street mother -nt

[tblue]

53. Yep. Sad.

They know we eventually fall in line and they take advantage of it. After OWS, things could change. We are in uncharted territory.

[certainot]

54. like i said, maybe you haven't been paying attention

maybe obama was your first vote or you ignored politics all your life and finally decided to vote and you're disappointed at the lack of progress.

millions of people got in the streets to stop iraq- where did that go? millions worked years to end the human rights abuses in central america. you expect to vote, blog, and obama's going to kick ass?

but your local limbaugh station sells club gitmo t-shirts and coffee mugs for him- have you ever complained to them? maybe the local university helps them make torture acceptable in america by broadcasting sports on that station. as long as liberals let the right do shit like that from 1000 radio stations without complaint why should they expect one black guy in the white billionaire's house to stick his neck out?

i can see some highly principled people seldom compromising taking your position and if you're one of those good on ya.

otherwise i have to conclude you're new to politics, or one of those trolls referred to in another post.

[scentopine]

55. There is no compromise on torture. not now not ever. Period. Your personal attack not withstanding.

Your personal attacks tell me you have more of an agenda than I do. Why are you so defensive and protective of the status quo?

I've been active in politics since 1970s. You? Let me guess, a democrat who has decided if you can't beat them, might as well join them.

The problem is - it is you who is out of phase, corporate democrats have been trying the steer the ship towards Reagan Island for 30 years.

Now that they've wrecked the boat (and the economy) on the shores, you are blaming those of us who were fighting to go in the other direction.

Because you have arrived out of phase, every old neo-lib/neo-con idea by Obama and his league of plutocrats just adds to the instability.

You are making things worse for the majority of Americans - in fact, I'll call it the 99%.

However, I will concede this is your deliberate intention. You are winning the broader war, there has never been a void of moral backbone in politics as now. Political expediency and personal gain at the expense of the broader well being of the nation is now standard operating procedure.

In every measurable index, life in America is deteriorating towards indentured servitude to a government oligarchy composed of impossibly rich corporate CEOs.

Neither party has any interest in changing this. I won't shut the fuck up about how wrong it is that we don't have any alternative representation for millions of people who have the vision for a much better place.

[certainot]

57. you overestimate the ability of obama, or any progressive president to do anything as long

as the left has NO organized response to the right's most important weapon. the one that's been kicking liberal and internet ass for 20 years because it gives thinking people a headache to listen to it or they'd just rather walk by with their iPods in their ears.

so you've been active all this time and you still don't think there's a difference between the two parties?

like i said maybe you are highly principled and make few compromises in life. do you think obama LIKES torture? can you imagine that going after the torturers at this point might put a lot of dangerous people that are still in the CIA and military in a nothing to lose situation? do you think obama is that strong?

i don't. people conveniently go down in airplane "accidents" and the naive americans think they're accidents.

and like i said, if there's a guy on every corner and stump in the country, reaching 50 mil a week, screaming torture is necessary and here's a club gitmo t-shirt and anyone who wants to try terrorists in civil courts is a traitor, and the entire liberal community of organizations just walks by, it is acceptable in america whether we like it or not.

we don't have obama's back and haven't, and we can't have rational national discussions about things like torture until the americans stop giving RW talk radio a free speech free ride. until then all dem reps and presidents are significantly weaker. shit, we can't even get the republicans to work on global warming.

here's a recent post that might add perspective. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=829429&mesg_id=829429

and i'd say part of that is that only the herman cains and clarence thomases listen to the limbaughs.

[scentopine]

59. Can you provide proof that torture is making us safer? Most studies claim the opposite

having said that... Newt Gingrich is going off.

The twisted beauty of this is that the Lizard knows that by advocating for child labor etc, he is pushing the American discourse farther right. He is clever enough to know Obama, the great appeaser, will move farther right to meet him in the middle.

It is now mainstream to discuss child labor as janitors as a legitimate solution to child rearing and a bad economy.

Where are the mighty democratic leaders? Well our adaptable democrats made torture mainstream, and continue to build up the police state with spying etc. ideas that should horrify anyone of modest intellect.

So here we are - democrats cowering in the corner, Obama extending the infinate olive branch, and generally doing what ever wall street asks of him.

This is his style. I object to it. He doesn't represent me. It's that simple, really. Every citizen gets a vote, I choose to not throw mine away on Obama.

[certainot]

61. obama the appeaser? that's their line.

only the right and maybe a few idiot blue dogs say torture is making us safer, and that always was the case.

gingrich owes everything to the limbaugh's as do all republicans. limbaugh is their true leader, or maybe you've been listening to that other republican in disguise, alex jones.

if you're a democrat or a liberal or progressive or principled whatever, you're wasting your time barking up teh wrong trees.

and if you didn't vote for dems in 2010, thanks a lot, you deserve everything you complain about now.

[scentopine]

63. I offer specifics for my discontent - you offer blame and scolding without

discussions of real world policy and it's impact on real people.

I won't vote for people who don't have my back. Obama doesn't have my back. Period. In fact he proved that with health policy, economic policy, war policy and energy policy - none of which I believe are appropriate for the democratic party. These policies are appropriate for a republican party.

You can keep belittling my real world concerns about Obama and democratic leadership - the fact is, things are not getting better.

I believe things are not getting better because Obama is not a good leader. He is constantly in appeasement mode to placate his republican base - you know, those valuable independent voters who are really republicans too embarrassed by Bush to vote for McCain. That's Obama's base. He's sent a giant fuck you to lifelong democrats like me, so I won't vote for him.

He's just making things worse. I see little hope and no vision for the future with Obama. If you like the continuing decline promulgated by mainstream media and mainstream politics, then vote for mainstream candidates. It's your choice.

I won't put party above principals. No one should.

[certainot]

67. the left as a whole cannot say it is getting obama's back, and until it fixes the radio that's the

the way i'm going to see it. and as i said before if you are a highly principled activist then i can see your point. but i've heard a lot of new activists who have been unreasonably expecting obama to kick ass.

a black man marching into the white billionaire's house has to do it slowly. the right controls the media. the corruption bush rove brought is still deep in government. the howling that the RW screamers could generate if obama was going to go after the bush crime family would have made it impossible without a revolution. a larger version of what they generated when florida tried a recount- the left is too week and doesnt have his back and can't expect him to stick his neck out very far as long as it allows their biggest radio stations to scream all day that obama is a traitor and liberals are traitors and our mothers are whores and fathers are thieves and our ideas come from lenin and mao.

it is an absurd evaluation of the real politics of the last 30 years to think obama could do what you say. the left continues to evaluate politics in a talk radio vacuum and as if much of the coups and election theft and assassinations never happened. a lot of shit happened before obama and dems and americans couldn't get anyone in jail for that. instead the right gets to recycle them on fox and talk radio.

it's politics, it's a 'democracy', compromise is necessary based on relative strengths and the left is not getting obama's back.

and as far as principles go- i have a friend who thinks cheese wrapped in the thin soft plastic is poisoned. and he thinks both parties are the same. and he drinks 20 cheap canned beers a day.

if you have no hope then give up, really, but please quit suggesting to not vote because things aren't perfect. that's been a winning strategy for th efucking republicans a long time.

[scentopine]

68. I never suggested not voting. I said you should vote for the

person who best represents you. Obama does not represent me. Everyone must make their own choice.

I have no hope for Obama. Does that mean I should give up? Why?

Also - I think you are putting too much emphasis on talk radio ( I realize it is symbolic for mass media).

Democrats can fight back if they want to. They don't because they don't want to alienate their right wing base.

Obama is working hard to pick up republicans who don't like the clown posse running for GOP nomination.

He's fighting much harder for republicans than democrats. I think that's wrong. That's another reason why I don't like him.

[certainot]

62. you sound like your purpose is to suppress the vote

[scentopine]

64. You sound like you changed the topic from racism and Obama, to attacking me. Why?

Because I don't like Obama? I listed my specifics - you offer nothing but personal attacks.

I don't like Obama. It has nothing to do with race. How about you?

[certainot]

69. i said this early on:

"i can see some highly principled people seldom compromising taking your position and if you're one of those good on ya."

and you said this:

"You are making things worse for the majority of Americans - in fact, I'll call it the 99%.

However, I will concede this is your deliberate intention. You are winning the broader war, there has never been a void of moral backbone in politics as now. Political expediency and personal gain at the expense of the broader well being of the nation is now standard operating procedure."

i think our argument has been fairly consistent

[Number23]

65. Could be or could just be blinding cluelessnes

This comment certainly has a dog whistling quality to it:

"Obama is as much white as he is black and he hasn't earned my vote."

Forget that the president identifies as a black man. Forget that his wife, children and family identify him as a black man. Forget that his WHITE MOTHER identified him as a black man (she stated that time and again, including when she was hesitant to bring her young son to Australia "because he was black" and she was concerned about Australia's whites only immigration policy).

I always find it interesting those who come up with the "Obama is as much white as he is black" line. Biologically, it may be true. But in every other sense of the word, in every since that actually MATTERS, he has made it plain what he identifies as. When people choose to overlook that, I find it very telling.

[scentopine]

66. Telling of what exactly, why stop there? So much paranoia - why is it

so hard for Obama supporters to understand that there are legitimate reasons for not liking the man. I don't like him. I am white - he is, in fact, half white.

I don't like him because I think his policies reflect on him personally. At first I was willing to conceded he might be a good guy with bad advice, but now it is clear his policies and the people he surrounds himself with, are in fact representative of him.

The fact is, I am white, he is half white. I don't care. I still don't like him.

[Number23]

70. I genuinely, and please believe me when I tell you that it is VERY genuine

couldn't care less what your reasons are for not liking the president. I've read enough of your posts here to TRULY not care.

I just find your "he's as white as he is black" to be one of the most frequently used dog whistles on DU right now. And it doesn't strike me as odd IN THE LEAST that someone who feels the need to make that point over and over again doesn't like the president. In fact, I find it fairly consistent with what I've seen and what I've come to expect.

[scentopine]

71. I see you replied to my post because you don't care - lol! This thread is about racism...

I am just trying to stay on topic even as you and other detractors are trying to bait me into some sort of fight.

I'm not going there. I don't like the man. The thread is about race as a function of people's so-called discontent vs. loyalty.

I don't like the man. If this thread had not been about race and liberals, you would have a point.

I know I am speaking for other liberals who don't like the man, race is a diversion to avoid the root cause of our discontent.

[Number23]

74. No one is baiting you. You are not interesting or special

I responded to another poster (check the thread tree, darling) with a comment about your racist dog whistles and you felt compelled to respond to me.

You came into this thread spouting bullshit and are getting called on it by several people. Nothing else to it.

[certainot]

77. thanks. that graph indicates a huge 30% difference and

suggests that it is racial difference but not racist . except maybe to racists writing RW think tank papers or those who might be as you say, clueless.

on second thought, since i see politics through an anti RW radio perspective, it suggests to me the effectiveness of RW radio, since while about 20% of americans say they listen to it, very few blacks probably do, or liberals.

i need to look further into it, later.

[Number23]

78. That's actually an interesting point

it suggests to me the effectiveness of RW radio, since while about 20% of americans say they listen to it, very few blacks probably do, or liberals.

I certainly don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of black people have very little time or interest in the Limbaughs, Becks and other assorted right wing lunatics. Which is very interesting considering the number of whites who are determined to characterize the black community as "socially conservative." Overall, we may be on some issues, but this country's history has proven who has used "social conservatism" to deny other people their rights. And it ain't been black people.

As the poster we've been responding to and others here confirm, the left has its own propaganda machines too. And as much as some like to think that they are too smart to fall for it, many do. And they sound just as ill informed as their right wing counterparts.

[certainot]

80. the left's media is diverse and unfocused- 1000 coordinated radio stations

repeating think tanks talking points planned and written by high paid PR professionals can message over and distract from just about anything liberals message. and there's no realtime challenge to the lies and sophisticated call screening software allows them to jack paid callers to the top of the list while avoiding challenge.

OWS is one of the few times the last 20 years where the left could message over RW talk radio, temporarily anyway.

and it's not just that 20%, it's the fact that many of those are active politically- many have to be- and then there's the secondary effects - friends, the office, family, etc. much of the material is designed to give the listeners ammunition to rationalize the alternate reality that's been sold- that we don't need to raise the debt ceiling, that single payer and global warming are commie attacks on america. it may be the selling of weapons of mass destruction vs the appeasing traitors who would argue against attacking iraq. and all they have to do is dominate enough states with enough senators and short circuit the democratic feedback mechanisms that would value common sense and truth more highly.

[treestar]

56. You expect any politician to "represent" you?

How about your governor, does he represent you?

In fact, what about your representative.

Really a list of your demands will get you nowhere. Anyone can make such a list, and they will all be different.

Have you ever demanded 100% fealty from any politician before?

[scentopine]

58. Last time I checked we were in a represetative democracy

I am allowed to vote for the person I feel best represents me. I carefully explained with a few important examples why Obama doesn't represent me.

We don't have soviet style elections. Yet. My governor is Rick Perry. He doesn't represent me either. So, I didn't vote for him. In fact, the president is right wing, all of my representatives are right wing (some more than others). I didn't vote for any of them(*). Centrists, republicans and other right wingers have failed miserably to make any headway into the deep economic crisis Wall Street has created.

In fact, both Rick Perry and Barack Obama are fighting hard for the same Wall Street money.

I'm not demanding 100% fealty, but with Obama there is almost no common ground. His rehortic is filled with "comfortable shoes" and flowery prose. From Wall Street, to Outsourcing jobs to China, to Bill Gates and Immelt and Geithner et al. he doesn't represent me or my beliefs or my interests. If I were a rich wall street banker, or a Reagan republican, I'd be quite happy, though.

If you aren't voting for people who best represent you, then why are you voting in the first place unless it's out of some false sense of civic obligation or symbolism?

I'll assume that you do support Obama and he best represents you by his actions. That's fine with me.

He doesn't represent me at all by his actions. So I won't vote for him.

I don't like the man and it's not about race. I'm white and he's half white. We have that much in common. I don't like his policies, his choices for cabinet, nor his empty rhetoric.

(*) on edit, I voted and was worker for Obama first time around. I made a mistake. Apologies to everyone I argued with when I believed he would actually change things. I was wrong, you were right. I won't make the same mistake twice.

[tblue]

73. Well, if you're gonna be PICKY...

LOL! Thank you for your list, scentopine! You saved me a lot of typing. Actually, I do have my own list but I just get so dispirited when I look at it, and I just don't have the strength today. Glad somebody is able to look at things objectively without attacking people for having an opinion.

The party is so not what it needs to be. And people still believe in it like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. It's a myth.* It is a rude awakening, but I think it's the only way out of the mire. OWS would not be happening if the Democrats had done their job, notwithstanding threats from the GOP, which are not going away.

If our POTUS is so helpless and defenseless that he is unable to get control of really important policy, why is that okay?



*Though I do still believe in Santa!

[scentopine]

75. Thanks - the insanity of it all gets to me. People are being bullied here and

elsewhere into accepting life with no vision and no hope. They have excuses for everything - 60 votes, president isn't dictator, YOU WANT PRESIDENT PERRY?, dog whistles, racism, blah, blah blah.

[tblue]

76. Yes, it's the incessant BULLYING that rips it

and turns me off so bad. I have found over the years that a candidate/politician is very much reflected in his/her supporters. It's no surprise that the man who belittles people (who voted for him!!!) would have supporters who do the same. They think they can tell us what we 'should' want and say.

It doesn't exactly make me want to hang out with them or work for him. If you considered volunteering for a candidate, would you want to hang out with people who say all you want is a PONY? Not me. Do the people losing their homes through fraudulent foreclosures want a PONY?! Do the drone victims in Pakistan want a PONY?! I could go on, but you are obviously already in the know.

It is insanity to decry something done by people of one party and then support it when it's done by your own party. I don't understand that at all. Nor do I want to.

Happy Holidays! Glad I came across your post.

[DevonRex]

79. This is a righteous rant. Best on DU2 in months.

Maybe since 2008. Thank you so much.