Dear Skinner: Please close down the DU store on CafePress

[SoxFan]

Any company that is willing to sell merchandise that implicitly calls for the death of President Obama should NOT receive a single penny from any Democrat!

Please discontinue the DU Store on Cafe Press and move it to another company, such as Zazzle.

[AndyA]

1. I have a site with a shop at Cafe Press, and I removed all the merchandise from it this afternoon.

When site visitors click on links to go there now, they get a page explaining why the items have been removed.

Hate is not a family value.
Praying for someone's death isn't a Christian value.

[laconicsax]

5. Well, it's certainly a value shared by some Christians.

edit: omission

[SoxFan]

6. I can call myself the High King of All Ireland. Doesn't make it so.

[laconicsax]

9. Exactly.

Hate and intolerance have been Christian values for centuries. Saying they aren't doesn't make it so.

[SoxFan]

10. Knock it off. You know what I mean.

If you want to play some bigoted game, go and do it someplace else.

[laconicsax]

13. It isn't bigoted to point out a contradiction.

That contradiction is between thousands of Christians believing that they are compelled to pray for Obama's death and more moderate Christians saying that praying for someone's death isn't a Christian value.

You can't just wish it all away.

[Clio the Leo]

36. And you cant ignore the text that says otherwise. NT

[laconicsax]

42. Please cite your example.

[Clio the Leo]

48. Sure. What translation do you prefer?

43 "You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. ~ Matthew 5:43-48

34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, " `YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:34-40

28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" 29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31 "The second is this, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." Matthew 12:28-31

27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt F140 from him either. 30 "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31 "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 "If R306 you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6:27-36

And MY personal favorite...

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - Romans 12:17-21

Hate is a sin* and every Christian knows this.


(*Does not apply to Blue Dogs who do not support Health Care Reform. I haven't found scripture to support this yet but I KNOW it has to be in there!)


Now, find scripture that shows Christ admonishing His followers to pray evil upon their enemies. Hip me to it.

[laconicsax]

54. I assume you won't accept the numerous examples

of Christians visiting death upon others throughout history--since that was what I've talking about. You know, the little things like the Inquisition, Crusades, witch hunts, church-led antisemitism, St. Thomas More's anti-Protestant actions, the wars sparked by the Protestant reformation, to name a few. If something is contrary to Christian values, shouldn't we not see it happen over and over again in Christian societies?

There has always been a disconnect between what Jesus allegedly preached and Christianity. There is also a disconnect between what Jesus allegedly said and other things he allegedly said. For example, you cite five examples of him preaching love and all that good stuff, yet here are five examples of him preaching the opposite:

Matthew 10:34-36

³⁴Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. ³⁵For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. ³⁶And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew 11:20-24

²⁰Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: ²¹Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. ²²But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. ²³And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. ²⁴But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Mark 6:10-11

¹⁰And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. ¹¹And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Luke 12:51-53

⁵¹Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: ⁵²For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. ⁵³The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And since hate is a sin, Luke 14:26

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

[Clio the Leo]

60. Well......

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

This applies a 20th Century meaning to a 1st Century word. The word for "hate" that is used there is "Miseo," which translates to what we would say today as "love less." The Greek word for "hate" in the manner you are trying to use it is "Kataphroneo" usually translated as "despise." (As seen in Matthew 18:10 and elsewhere.)

The passages you quoted (Matthew 11:20-24 and Mark 6:10-11) refer to the Judgment day and the actions of God, not instruction on how Christians are to treat their fellow man. (Although I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to in the second verse if not that, the reference seems rather vague.)

Matthew 10:34-36, "I came not to send peace, but a sword" .... is a reference to the metaphorical splitting of the old law from the new. There are several references to Christ's death on the cross being disruptive to the law and the Jewish tradition. The context is clear if you read that entire passage. The division between old and new law is also what is being referred to in Luke 12:51-53. Thorough study of the scripture makes this clear as the theme of Christ coming to divide the Old and New Testaments is a recurring theme.

The sword reference is understood as the New Testament, and is most famously referenced in Ephesians 6:17 "17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"


And I most certainly DO NOT accept any of the post-Biblical examples you cited .... primarily because those institutions were not the Church. Now, they might have claimed to be, but their teachings fell outside of the scripture.

Even if we presume they were, the actions of one man are not an instruction to other men on how to behave. That argument is foolish. The activities of Eric Rudolph are no more examples of so-called Christian violence than were the actions of the 9/11 bombers examples of Muslim violence. Both actions (series of actions) fall outside of the teachings of the faith and are, therefore, anomalies.



And addressing what you said in the other post....

The New Testament was written to the entire world. It is the decision by an individual to follow the New Testament or not that makes them a Christian. But from the perspective of a Christian, the Old Testament is a dead law.

[BennyD]

73. Excellent hermeneutics, Clio, excellent! n/t

[laconicsax]

112. Didn't Christ say something to the contrary?

Matthew 5:18-19

¹⁸Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ¹⁹Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

[Clio the Leo]

121. To the contrary of what?

I addressed a whole lot in the post you were replying to. What are you claiming that verse is to the contrary of?

[laconicsax]

128. "But from the perspective of a Christian, the Old Testament is a dead law. "

[Clio the Leo]

129. Ok ...........

..... that verse is referring to "the law" ie the "Old Testament" law not the Bible in its entirety.

"till all be fulfilled" refers to Christ's death upon the cross .... be sure to read the verse preceding what you quoted which says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (See John 19:28, Hebrews 9:15-22.)

The old law "of Moses" died with Christ.

(On a side note, I realize we have gotten WAY off of the topic of the Presidency of the United States here but I think laconicsax and I are proving that two people can discuss/debate radically opposing viewpoints in an adult, respectful manner. I appreciate the mods for allowing us to continue to do so.)

[Divine Discontent]

122. what God may or may not do is not the point - what Jesus commands of Christians is love of their

perceived enemies. You can say any of the arguments you wish to, it is your right - but Jesus repeatedly show massive love of the downtrodden, the sick, the needy, the widow, the outcast, and tells all of humanity to do unto others as you'd have done unto you.

Simple enough, Christ in no way told his followers to behave anything other than incredibly giving and loving to all, and just to pray for the enemy to change their behavior that has harmed you.

[Ken Burch]

115. Excuse me, you can't hold those Christians who oppose praying for Obama's death

responsible for those who do. Or blame the entire Church for those wackjobs.

And to blame Christianity as a religious tradition, the teachings themselves, for this misuse of the scripture, lets those who misuse it off the hook. It gives them a kind of theological version of the Nuremburg defense: "We Were Only Following Holy Orders".

Christianity is not to blame for hatred of Obama. Some Christians are. You have got to accept the fact that there's a difference between those two concepts.

[Deep13]

74. You played the bigot card too early.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=196408

[spoony]

38. How about not hijacking the thread eh?

Your chip is your problem.

[laconicsax]

45. There's no threadjacking here.

This subthread makes up about 1/5th of the total responses to this thread. That's a substantial minority. What's more, it is directly related to the OP.

Thousands of Christians believe that their values and religion compel them to pray for Obama's death. Simply saying that doing so isn't a Christian value is at odds with the facts and requires either a large-scale 'Scotsman' fallacy or a unified, multi-denominational definition of Christian values.

Since, generally speaking, no two Christian denominations fully agree on which values are 'Christian' and which are not, the claim that "praying for someone's death" isn't a Christian value is untenable in the face of the evidence. The only other option is to simply say that those engaging in the Psalm 109:8-9 crap aren't 'true' Christians which is, as I'm sure you realize, a fallacy.

[Clio the Leo]

49. As you, no doubt, realize that Psalms wasn't written to Christians.

So what Psalms says has no bearing on Christianity.

(Not to mention the fact that Psalms, when taken out of context, has no bearing on ANYTHING.)

[laconicsax]

57. Much of the New Testament wasn't written to Christians either.

The Gospels were tailored to various non-Christian groups to try to bring them into the religion and the epistles of Paul were written to other groups for a similar purpose.

[Deep13]

76. I see, it only applies to those hateful Jews.

:sarcasm:

Besides, the OT is full of injunctions to kill nonbelievers.

[Clio the Leo]

79. No, it was written to Jews.

.... who lived before the time of Christ. I read your OP linked above .... I agree with most of it esp. the next to last paragraph. Snark aside, you know who the OT was written to just as much as you know I didn't say, "those hateful Jews." ;)

[Deep13]

81. Okay, so now you're suggesting that pre-Christian Judaism...

...was violent and barbaric, but that the advent of Christianity someone civilized them. Is the Bible a holy book or isn't it?

Besides, you have not demonstrated that there is any factual basis for Christianity or Judaism at all. You have to do that before you can raise arguments that assume its validity.

[Clio the Leo]

120. lol no......

.... I'm SAYING that nothing in the New Testament supports Christians behaving violently toward others.

Your initial claim was that "Praying for someone's death" was "certainly a value shared by some Christians."

Now perhaps a more accurate response on my part would have been that while a very small number who claim to follow Christianity behave that way, they are doing so in error.


As for, "you have not demonstrated that there is any factual basis for Christianity or Judaism at all," I'm afraid I dont understand what you mean by that statement.

[sabrina 1]

52. They are not Christians. They have hi-jacked the

name of a man who, if he was alive today, would be crucified all over again by those same faux 'christians'. They promote everything he was against.

If anything, Jesus, whose name they have appropriated, but whose message they rarely quote, was a Liberal, a Socialist. Everything they are against. Which is why they quote the Old Testament. I have had many confrontations with far rightwingnuts and have asked them over and over to quote Jesus on eg, abortion, gays, war and not once have they been able to do so. They always go back to the OT.

Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and the rest of the 'Christian Right' could not be further removed from the principles taught by the man whose name they have appropriated, if they tried. I wish it was copyrighted as the best thing that could happen to them would be to have them forbidden from calling themselves 'Christians'.

[laconicsax]

56. Sorry, religious adherence is determined through self-identification.

There is no unified definition of "Christian" and until there is, the only determining factor can be self-identification. As a result, the wingnuts have just as much right to call themselves Christians as the moderate and liberal believers.

Look up "no true Scotsman." It's what you're doing.

[Clio the Leo]

61. No.....

.... because the scripture which they are identifying themselves with says otherwise.

Now, if someone chooses not to be a Christian, that's their prerogative. We all have the right to take it or leave it.

But if someone claims to be a Christian, the Bible is replete with rules on what qualifies one to be so. I understand what YOU are saying, that you think the Bible is subject to interpretation and subsequently the line that defines who a Christian is and is not is fluid and bending upon the whim of the person doing the interpretation.

But that belief does not jive with what the Bible says. 1 Peter 1 and Ephesians 4 make that pretty clear.

[Chulanowa]

66. The scripture says a lot of things, Clio

For instance, Jesus tells his disciples to NOT spread the gospel to Gentiles. Yet, here you are. How 'bout that?

Blame the Apostles and Saul, I suppose.

Quick, are works a necessary part of salvation? Catholics say yes, Protestants say no. Maybe you can set them straight?

[Clio the Leo]

125. You know, typically, if I were to claim that Obama said "thus and so"....

.... I'd be expected to cite that claim.

Since you didn't name the scripture you're referring to, I have a hard time discussing it.


As for your second question ..... its based on the false premise that works and faith are two different things. James 2:14-26 clearly illustrates how faith and works are mutually dependant on one another.

But ultimately, neither saves us. We're saved by grace. (Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:5-8, 2 Timothy 1:8-9) ..... faith and works are merely a demonstration of a Christian life.

[Chulanowa]

133. What the world does obama have to do with anything?

Odd.

Matt. 10:5 "Go not into the way of the Gentiles"

Matt. 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"

John 4:22 "Salvation is of the Jews"

And I'm glad you cleared that up. Man, too bad you weren't in Ireland two hundred years ago, huh?

[Bluenorthwest]

70. The NT is filled with admonishments to slaves to obey their

masters as they would obey God. Do you believe that Clio? Says it over and over. Master is proxy for God in the lives of slaves. Stand up and shout that you believe slaves should obey, Clio. So sad. All the arrogance of those who claim to speak for Christ himself.
I see your high horse posts, but I also see your lusting after Barack posts, which Jimmy Carter Jesus and I all agree are the same as adultery. Lust in one's heart. But you brag about it all the time, with great pride. Christ said it is the same as adultery, that lust, and you laugh about it. I read that, and I think 'no true Scotsman, this'.

[spoony]

118. And...that's like the ninth time...

Just hellbent on getting everyone to see your poor biblical comprehension I guess.

[Clio the Leo]

127. You got a verse for that.......

.... home skillet?

As for the lust aspect .... well ANYONE who has read any of my posts knows that it's not the President I wantonly lust after ..... it's THIS juicy piece of manflesh....



.... but no doubt God forgives that lust. I mean, who can blame me? The man was clearly sent from Heaven above (via Scranton) to give womankind a reason to live.

And he turned 67 today ..... so I think I'll go have some pie in his honor (and yes, I know, gluttony, also a sin, but that's one of my favorites!)

[sabrina 1]

64. Only in the minds of the deluded. You can call yourself

whatever you want of course. You, eg, can call yourself Brad Pitt. You certainly have a right to do so. However, that's all of Brad Pitt you will ever be, a name.

Same thing with fake Christians. Self-determing that you are something you are not, doesn't make it so. They are either deluded, which some probably are, or they are using the name to deceive others.

It's not that unusual for people to adapt an identity that they are not entitled to for nefarious purposes. So sure, they can 'self-identify' all they want. But anyone who knows better, understands that they are deceivers.

Some people think they're God. It's not illegal, but most of them are on medication along with anyone who believes them.

These people are not Christians no matter how much they 'self-identify' with that faith. And yes, there is a unified definition of what a Christian is.

[Deep13]

77. They say the same thing about you.

And unlike you, they don't pick and choose which parts of the Bible are valid and which are not. Anyway, this is a variation of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. No true Christian accepts what the conservatives think. Except they do. The argument is a for of a priori in that it attempts to define the premise, what constitutes a Christian, with your conclusion (anything but them).

[sabrina 1]

87. Except I am not the one picking and choosing.

If you say you are a follower of a particular individual, but your actions and words contradict everything that individual teaches, then it is simple, you are not.

Christ did not teach 'tell the poor to pull themselves up by their bootstratps' or 'let's drop bombs on people in foreign lands so we can steal their property'. He never said, 'let's not feed the starving because it's their fault that they have nothing to eat'. Nor did he say 'let's not provide assistance to the sick because they cannot pay me to cure them'.


He also never said 'it is a sin to be gay' so let's make sure they are not treated equally.

Fake Christians preach the exact opposite of what Christ taught his followers regarding the poor and the sick.

He encouraged kindness towards others while fake Christians encourage the opposite except to those they pick and choose as being worthy of consideration.

He despised hypocrites also and I'm sure if he were alive today would repeat the angry words he had to say to those who practiced hypocrisy. And the love of money above all else, was not something he was especially fond of either.

So, sure there is no law against anyone claiming to be a follower of Christ but for anyone not too blinded by propaganda and lies told by Fake Christians, it is clear that they need a new hero, because the one they claim to be followers of, has already spoken out against pretty much everything they represent.

[Deep13]

113. You are ignoring all the rest of the NT and a lot of the OT.

I know it is fashionable for liberal Christians to do just that, but others cannot be blamed for declining to do so.

This is apart from the fact that the Gospels are not reliable indicators of what JC said or did since they contradict each other and because a lot of the stuff he does is impossible. Plus there are his dubious morality, thought crimes, demand for unquestioning acceptance, the novel concept of eternal punishment and impossible standards designed to instill false hope and perpetual guilt for failing to meet those standards.

Plus there are the centuries of ecclesiastical thought since the Christian Bible was written which supports the conservative point of view. That is as much part of Christianity as the Bible is.

The conservatives do ignore parts of the Bible. That is a fact. Still, they ignore a lot less of it than liberal believers do.

[sabrina 1]

132. And now you are making quite a few assumptions. The

first, that I am a Liberal Christian, or any kind of Christian whatsoever. It is not necessary to be a Christian or a Muslim or any other religion, to know something about those religions.

You can go on attempting to defend the indefensible if you wish, but I can't say it any more simply than this, you are so wrong there is simply nowhere to begin to correct your wild assumptions. And since you are the kind of person, proven in your above post, to make assumptions rather than deal with facts and reality, just like the fundies you defend, there isn't much point in attempting to have a rational discussion with you, at least about this topic.

The Churches making up their own rules is not the same as what is actually in the NT and no, it is not as much a part of Christianity as the Bible is. Anymore than me deciding what is in the Constitution regardless of the actual facts.

[musicblind]

110. IT'S NOT A SCOTSMAN FALLACY

Actually read the 1975 Antony Flew quote on which that fallacy is based!


Here is some more info on the Scotsman Fallacy:

A Universal claim is of the form "All x are y" or "No x are y." In the example originally given by Antony Flew, the universal claim is "No Scotsmen are brutal maniacal rapists." (No S are BMR.) The counterexample is given by the Aberdonian, who, philosopher Antony implied, is a brutal maniacal rapist. The response relies on a continued insistence that No Scots are brutal maniacal rapists, and to thus conclude that the brutal maniacal and rapacious Aberdonian is no true Scot. Such a conclusion requires shifting the presumed definition of "Scotsman" to exclude all brutal maniacal rapists.

HOWEVER, should the existing definition of a Scotsman already exclude "brutal maniacal rapists" then it would not be a fallacy to point out that no Scotsmen are brutal maniacal rapists. In situations where the subject's status is previously determined by specific behaviors, the fallacy does not apply. For example, it is perfectly justified to say, "No true vegetarian eats meat," because not eating meat is the single thing that precisely defines a person as a vegetarian. Likewise, a true Christian specifically attempts to follow some number of the teachings of Christ since the word Christian literally means "small, Christ-like" ... if you don't believe any of the teachings of Christ then you, by definition, are no longer a true Christian. This is the same as the way eating a steak every night for dinner would disqualify you from being a "true" vegetarian.

[Deep13]

114. You are assuming "Christ-like" is what liberals think it is and not...

...what conservatives think it is. The premise that Jesus was a liberal is exactly what is in dispute.

[polmaven]

68. Because SOME misguided

people who call themselves Christians are saying and praying for these things, that does NOT mean they are Christian values.

The vast majority of Christians are not hateful and bigoted.

[Bluenorthwest]

72. Link for your witness or is it made up, and false?

The vast majority of Christians are bigoted against my community. They brag about that all the time, even here on DU. The vast majority are bigots, and the small minority who are not have been so weak and silent for so many long decades that their personal bigotry or lack of it is a moot point. They allow McClurkin and Phelps and Warren to speak for them. They have done this for years on end now.

[musicblind]

111. Really? The all-gay church in Winston-Salem consists of plenty of people who

are not bigoted against Gay's. A portion of Christians, specifically conservative Christians use their religion to hide their prejudice and bigotry, it does not mean it is reflective of the way they SHOULD use their religion. And for the record, I am an openly gay male.

[onestepforward]

7. I totally agree.

Thank you for putting an explanation on why the items were removed. People need to know.

[katanalori]

8. THANK YOU AndyA!

Good on you.

[proud patriot]

2. okay I've been off the computer for 2 days

it's sounds like I missed something .

We DU members should lobby cafe press to STOP
and perhaps they will ..

Do you have a link?

[Dennis Donovan]

3. I think that's been tried...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7049635#7049701

[proud patriot]

37. Thanks

I called cafepress and I spend a lot of money on bumberstickers
every year .

[vaberella]

4. I agree with this sentiment. n/t

[NYC_SKP]

11. I have to agree. TIA! eom

[Greyskye]

12. Agreed.

[Drunken Irishman]

14. Yup. Fuck CafePress.

[patrice]

15. AND they send you the wrong stuff.

[bluedigger]

16. I agree.

It is the principled thing to do.

[firedupdem]

17. I agree. Rec'd n/t

[beac]

18. I agree. n/t

[Fire1]

19. Totally agree. n/t

[madamesilverspurs]

20. Uh, no.

Yes, I have a small store at cafepress. No, I haven't gotten rich with it. But through that store we have been able to produce bumper stickers and other campaign gear for some of our local candidates. Lots of Democrats have stores at cafepress. As for Zazzle, I checked it out when someone on DU first suggested it. The entire page that came up was merchandise with ugly and some blatantly racist anti-Obama stuff, so they clearly lack the purity you are unrealistically demanding of cafepress.


---

[SoxFan]

21. Fail

By forking money over to Cafe Press, you are condoning their irresponsible behavior. Need an alternate supplier? Here:

http://www.sawickiandson.com

http://www.demstore.com

http://tigereyedesign.com

[BlooInBloo]

22. (shrug) I certainly won't do any business through cafepress....

Thanks for letting me know of your affiliation with them.

Every consumer can make their own purchase decisions - that's just mine.

[NYC_SKP]

23. CafePress raised my cholesterol 30 points AND gave me Acne and Ruined My Life.

Not really, just a kick.

:kick:

[tomm2thumbs]

24. is Ebay selling this stuff? They can set a trend of stopping it if it is being sold

I could find very few examples so maybe they are pulling it.

I'd tend to start with them and see what momentum you can transfer to other organizations. Ebay has a pretty good track record of not letting radicial elements act in the name of 'freedom' to 'stab' at others from behind a barbwire fence.

[Cha]

25. Not giving anymore money to cafepress..I bought

from them when I knew they sold rwinger shit but this crosses my line.

[lynne]

26. I didn't get "calls for death" from the Psalm items -

- I thought it was a reference to either impeachment or a one-term wish, both of which would be fair commentary even if we don't agree with the sentiment. I personally think that it being considered a "call for death" is reading into it and is a bit of a stretch. But, hey, that's just me.

[Hissyspit]

27. The people whose intent is being revealed in the psalm

are the people who are wishing death on the persecuted person, who is beseeching God for help against them.

Psalm 109:

6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him (the innocent person the psalm is about);
let an accuser stand at his right hand.

7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty (kangaroo court),
and may his prayers condemn him.

8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.

9 May his children be fatherless
and his wife a widow.

10 May his children be wandering beggars;
may they be driven from their ruined homes.

11 May a creditor seize all he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor.

12 May no one extend kindness to him
or take pity on his fatherless children.

13 May his descendants be cut off,
their names blotted out from the next generation.

It's fucking ugly. It's a dog whistle. They are counting on you not getting it. Even those who may innocently think they are just asking for a one-term Obama are contributing to the larger radical "Christian" fundamentalist message and milieu that condones this thinking, and it only takes one successful nut-case.

[Capn Sunshine]

28. as usual, no one read it...they just "heard"

New International Version (©1984)
May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Let his days be few; Let another take his office.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Let his days be few . Let someone else take his position.

King James Bible
Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

American King James Version
Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

American Standard Version
Let his days be few; And let another take his office.

Bible in Basic English
Let his life be short; let another take his position of authority.

Douay-Rheims Bible
May his days be few: and his bishopric let another take.

Darby Bible Translation
Let his days be few, let another take his office;

English Revised Version
Webster's Bible Translation
Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

World English Bible
Let his days be few. Let another take his office.

Young's Literal Translation
His days are few, his oversight another taketh,


Geneva Study Bible
Let his days be few; and let another take his {e} office.

(e) This was chiefly accomplished in Judas, Ac 1:20.

opposite blessing is long life (Ps 91:16; Pr 3:2). The last clause is quoted as to Judas by Peter (Ac 1:20).

Now. the NEXT verse 109 colon 9

New International Version (©1984)
May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Let his children be fatherless And his wife a widow.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Let his children become fatherless and his wife a widow.

King James Bible
Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.

American King James Version
Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.

American Standard Version
Let his children be fatherless, And his wife a widow.

Bible in Basic English
Let his children have no father, and his wife be made a widow.

That's pretty apparent.
---------------------------
If the stickers had said : Obama: Psalm 109 THAT would be a threat, no? But they don't. They specifcally say 109:8.

[OhioBlue]

30. I read it and I don't see how anyone that read it

doesn't take it to be a threat. When you read it in context it is most certainly calling for the death of our President. The people pushing that are sick and twisted.

[DainBramaged]

(sigh) so it's OK with you?

[vaberella]

65. Once again...you hit the nail on the head..."no one read it" do you think right wing nuts have?

No they don't give a shit. So when they read what they did and then they (if they have the nerve) attack the president don't think you cna reason with them. They will NEVER read it in context. That's the reason this neeeds to be taken down and tossed out.

[ima_sinnic]

67. I have yet another version:

Revised Standard Version ©1953:

8 May his days be few; may another seize his goods!
9 May his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow!

Interesting that none of the other versions is in the area of "goods" in 8--they are all variations of "office" or "position."

[BlancheSplanchnik]

69. And the "Tree of Liberty must be Watered With Blood" teabaggers with guns at Presidential speeches

are making subtle distinctions between Verses and translations.


yeah.

[SoxFan]

92. Oh, he was just celebrating Arbor Day, don'tcha know...

[BlancheSplanchnik]

101. :)

heh!

seriously, I know we're a bunch of intellectual wonks around here, and we love exercising our thought processes, but applying impeccable standards of interpretation to mass culture fixations is kind of misguided.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Is that what the fuss is about?

[DainBramaged]

33. HERE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=8002&mesg_id=8002


"We initially pulled the Psalm 109:8 content from our products today because broader media dialog indicated that these designs potentially suggested violence towards the president. Based on current public discourse and further review of the actual content, we have determined that it is fair political commentary and we are in the process of reinstating this merchandise. As with all of our content, these designs will continue to be reviewed and if at any time their meaning is construed as advocating violence we will revisit our decision."

Margene H.
Content Usage Associate
[phone] (O)
[phone] (F)
www.cafepress.com

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Thanks, I saw the hand wringing, but no one had said what the problem was

[Cha]

44. "Fair Political Commentary"...and whose pocketbook do they

think they're fooling?

[DainBramaged]

31. I agree. We should NOT be supporting a company who supports harming the President

no matter what political party they are affiliated with.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[kid a]

34. k&r

[sjdnb]

39. I donated to DU thinking they had pulled from CafePress because

the CafeShops link (DU Store) was coming up not found, for hours now. But, alas, the DU store is still http://www.cafepress.com/sk/du_store">there Guess I'll have to cancel my donation.

[BlooInBloo]

40. Well - there you go. Thanks for confirming.

[sjdnb]

41. I'm now confident, DU is leaving CafePress

It just took a while to get things in place. My donation will stand.

[Cha]

43. I just donated bc EarlG said they were taking cafe press down

from DU(within the hour)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7051831#7052028

[EarlG]

46. The store has been taken down

Some items may still be showing up in a search of the marketplace, hopefully that will take care of itself in a few hours. I've posted an announcement on the front page of the store.

[Stephanie]

47. Awesome!

Please put out a press release.

[Cha]

50. Thank you, EarlG!

DU~Activists Against Assassination Advocacy..puts their money where their mouth is.

[otohara]

51. Excellent

You guys rock.

[sjdnb]

53. Thank you ...

This has been something extremely disturbing to me since I first came upon it.

There was so much wrong with this whole thing -- from the religiosity to the implied violent result that, although it came from RWers, I still was shocked and dismayed.

[democracy1st]

55. +1

[slay]

58. I think that's the right thing to do

Glad yall did too. They know some of the stuff on there is pure hate like that Psalms thing but oh well. Thanks for lettin us know EarlG.

[onestepforward]

59. Thank you so much!

[avaistheone1]

63. Thank you too.

[Bluerthanblue]

75. this is just one of many reasons-

that I love this place, and continue to come back here year after year.

Thanks DU Mods- for being true~
And for everything everyone does to make it such a great site.

:grouphug:
blu

[wicket]

78. WOO HOO!

:yourock:

[Irishonly]

82. Thank you

It's great to be part of a group that does the right thing.

[texanshatingbush]

84. Thank you, EarlG. Thank you with all my heart! n/t

[SoxFan]

89. You're a good man, EarlG!

:patriot:

[dgibby]

96. Kudos!

Thanks so much!

[Paladin]

98. Many Thanks. (n/t)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

100. Thanks EarlG

:yourock:



I like the press release idea mentioned above.

[wicket]

103. They pulled the design!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x9032

:woohoo:

[Orsino]

126. For that, I've just donated. Thank you! n/t

[avaistheone1]

62. Strongly agree.

[Christa]

71. Skinner, ytou have my vote. nt

[TomClash]

80. Good catch

I am especially worried about these people. This is a much bigger threat than people think.

I also want Felix Hernandez, Matt Holliday and Adrian Gonzalez for Xmas. :)

[Chan790]

90. For which team? (Off-topic)

I assumed you're a Red Sox fan or a Mets fan or some team other than the Yankees (I checked your profile to see where you're from, as a hint), as Yankees would not make a lot of sense...they have insufficient-value prospects in their minor league system to trade for the first and last ones meaning they'd have to deal from their major league roster (which does not make a lot of sense as either deal would make the Yankees significantly worse (like not competitive in the AL East worse) in the short term to trade large numbers of young talented MLB-level players or what very-few MLB-ready star prospects they have.) and AdGon is redundant for a team with Teixiera.

[SoxFan]

93. Look at my screen name

I think that has something to do with Theo's Hannukkah shopping list!

[Chan790]

95. Well...I know you're a Sox fan.

and so am I.

Tom Clash from Brooklyn? I had to guess...I was under the impression having lived and worked in Brooklyn this past year that I was the only Red Sox fan around.

[SoxFan]

130. Historically, there have been quite a few Sox fans in Brooklyn

The hate for the pinstripes runs deep, and the Mets are really the reincarnated Giants. What else was a Dodger fan to do?

[NJmaverick]

83. Zazzle sells the same offensive stuff

[ipaint]

102. From Nov. 18th on Zazzle

"With that in mind, it is only after great thought that we have determined that these products, in the context of the full text of Psalm 109, may be interpreted in such a way as to suggest physical harm to the President of the United States. In deference to the Office of the President of the United States, and in accordance with federal law prohibiting the making of threats against the physical wellbeing of the President of the United States, Zazzle has therefore determined that these products are in violation of the Zazzle User Agreement and not appropriate for inclusion in the Zazzle Marketplace. We have begun efforts to remove them from our website, and we will be vigilant to the publication of similar products moving forward."

http://blog.zazzle.com/2009/11/18/statement-on-psalm-109-products/

[jonnyblitz]

117. people are finding other stuff besides psalm 109. nt

[NoSheep]

85. Thanks DU!

[slackmaster]

86. MR. SKINNER - TEAR DOWN THAT CafePress STORE!!!

[Divine Discontent]

123. 40 posts back it was announced it was down. and thanks for not putting reagan zombie as the pic! ha

[66 dmhlt]

88. Voice Your Opinion at the CafePress Poll:

http://blog.cafepress.com/2009/11/19/psalm-1098/

Currently scoring

Fair Political Commentary - 6%

Overly Inflammatory and Inappropriate - 92%

Not Sure - 2%

[Ms. Toad]

107. And this:

http://blog.cafepress.com/

>>Nov 20th, 2009
Psalm 109:8 update

This morning we made the decision to remove all Psalms 109:8 designs from CafePress.<<

[JimRob_is_a_douche]

91. Just, wow...

I have worked on presidential campaigns since I was 18 (two Clintons, a Gore, a Kerry, a Janet Reno for Gov (here in Florida), and finally on Hillary Clinton's) before I became burned out and quit the business. I'm 35 now and I've NEVER before seen anything like the hatred for this man! It's absolutely epic!

I have to assume that it's because of his race. I'm not a baiter, but I can't see how it could be anything else! Especially when it's mostly older Americans at these rallies purchasing items such as this rather-offensive shirt!

It's absolutely sickening, how low conservatives have gone!

[glinda]

94. yes

[Pryderi]

97. Zazzle is selling it too

http://www.zazzle.com/psalm_109_8_tshirt-235705825982761529

[BlancheSplanchnik]

99. nothing there; no matches for Psalm 109:8! Click on your link :)

look farther up the thread, you'll see Zazzle's notice, links, etc.

[Ms. Toad]

106. There have been Psalm 109:8 products for sale there off and on all day

Two bumper stickers and three T-shirts during the times I've checked.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

108. Ew!

I hope that's just items they overlooked. Hope you sent a note.

[Ms. Toad]

109. Yep.

I'm sure their system relies on customer reports, rather than advance review of products offered. They are, at least momentarily, all down.

[CAcyclist]

104. I concur

Even without this issue, it's been getting too hard to find decent stuff on Cafepress, unless you already had the link o the store you wanted. I will check out Zazzle.

[Divine Discontent]

119. I removed thousands of items from cafemess marketplace due to their screwing me out of my

fair royalties for my designs. 40 cents for a sticker design of mine is laughable, $2 for a $20 shirt is even worse. now you have to go directly to what few remaining shops I have to find items. I use zazzle but my sales there are very low.

cafemess was taken over by a company that simply shat on the designers, which I'm sure you probably know this... I'm just griping about how horrible they are now. ha

[Cybergata]

105. Zazzle has much better shirts! n/t

[itsrobert]

116. SoxFan is Owner/Operator of Zazzle

Look it up.

[jonnyblitz]

124. very interesting. nt

[SoxFan]

131. Where's my dividend check, damn it?

:rofl: