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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 02:19 AM
Original message
A shared experience with racism: I wanted to share my experiences.
Since racism is definitely a topic some of us are addressing more and more, which I am enjoying. I decided to share more on my experience on the matter. This is not a sob story, but I wanted some people on here to see the different ways we as Black people identify racism---or different people take it. In a lot of the cases I will mention here there is some Black/Hispanic tension that is normally ignored. I don't know many people who even know about it. Barely ever discussed, or when it is---turns into a straight out hate fest that anything productive. Or in the case of DU, these sort of discussions are left in the AA section and never really brought to the forefront.

I am from a multicultural background (as is the case with like the MAJORITY of Blacks from the Western Hemisphere--we all know why)---it's a bit weird to be racist against White people when your granddad is White and eating from your icey. But this is of course in Haiti. So race relations is UTTERLY different and completely opposite to America. Our issues is entirely economic, versus racial. However, there is no denying that colourism IS an issue. For those who do not know...colourism is a byproduct of racism. You have it in America and it's the whole House slave versus Field slave concept. It's alive and well in the Caribbean---and I'm sure all Caribbean people are aware. Shit, I believe in America it's also known as Jack and Jill politics (I believe, if I'm not mistaken--Jack and Jill was a group of light skinned Blacks who liked to remain light skinned so they married others of "their kind") I think it was popular in the south. I'm not 100% on top of that. But colourism is strong is the Black community---Light skin versus Dark skin. (Byproducts of racism---colourism---based on the coloring of the skin (light skin versus dark skin), hair typing--at times good hair versus bad hair, language--blacccent versus acting or speaking White. These are all caused by initial racism of Black versus White--which is not only perpetuated by Whites against Blacks but also within the race itself--then outwards ie many Whites are accused of having a Blaccent).

That's a just a bit of my background to give you a bit of my historical outlook on what I was seeing. I will start off with the race talk in my family. The first race talk my family had was when my sister was around 8 or 9. Keep in mind for some here it might be seriously shocking. For others, nothing new. My mother was running after my sister to take a bath...and my sister said---"Why? It won't wash the Black off." <---I never forgot that statement. At the time, I was shocked---I was 14, but it didn't strike me as much as it did later in life. Apparently my sister was getting a lot of derogatory statements from her classmates because of her dark skin. I happen to be far lighter than her and I, I never saw any distinction made between our colourings in the family, but it was clearly expressed to her outside of the family unit. She had this from both White and Hispanic students, mainly Hispanic though. Like when a White student would tan---and I had friends say this---"I'm almost as Black as..." You get the picture. To them it was no big deal, they laughed it off---not realizing how much it hurt us. After my sister's statement my parent's had the "race" talk with us and to be proud of who we are. This was hard for me, because I didn't know why I was hated.

My first aspect of racism was when I worked a St. Patrick's day event that I had done the previous year without a problem. We were servers. The original organizer did tell us not to go since he wouldn't be there. But we went anyway---it was a group of us. Three of us were Black, but the darker skinned males were sent home. I didn't realize the connection. It wasn't until 3 hours into the event that I was told to go home as well. I was the only one taken aside and asked to leave. I didn't notice anything racist---but my fellow coworkers didn't like the vibe and they also worked out. It wasn't until later my friend stated---that the organizer had said..."The Black girl probably stole some money and we wanted to prosecute." I told my dad and my dad was going to take him to court for defamation of character. He was held back by a mutual friend of both parties. That's when I was like...Holy Shit...That was racist.

That was when I went through my phase. I don't know if all Black people go through this, all Black adolescents, but I think we do have it at one point or another. I'm sure my fellow AA posters can let me know their thoughts on it. I hated being Black. I really hated myself and the color of my skin. I didn't hate being a woman as much as I hated being the race that I was part of. This is why on some level I feel White women can never relate to me. How many White people hated being White? You sit there and you're like...what did I do to be watched like a criminal. What did I do to be mocked, to be so overtly sexualized---because Black and Hispanic women are more often HYPERsexualized. I managed it for sure. I was never one of those people who denied my coloring or did something destructive, but I had issues with my race. I had to work through it. I managed it alone. It's not like many Black kids get help dealing with racism in school. Most of us internalize it or rail against it. Most of the people I knew internalized---ie ignored it and went about their day. However I still prep myself every morning when I leave the house because I do expect something stupid to be said. Because someone always says or does something stupid. This is not therapy for me---I've gotten over my issues and I am thoroughly proud of who I am and who my ancestors are. I represent their fight to survive and I won't let them down. But for those who believe racism is gone, and for those who think that AA cures all. Realize that when you're a Black person in America, it's not so easy. There is no cure because no matter how many ways we try to protect our children---something happens to trigger everything that existed in the past. It is not as terrible, but the pain is still there and it's shared for every generation---into this day and age.

Keep in mind I'm from New York---the "melting pot" ---racism is alive and well. I remember having discussion with a group of people---we were talking about interracial dating. To some this may not be racist, but a guy who's also a Liberal, he was White, stated how he would date a Black woman but never date them. He went on to say, they didn't eat the same food, didn't listen to the same music...yada, yada, yada. He was a mature adult. I asked him, so are you suggesting that because I'm Black I would have more in common with someone from let's say Nigeria, because they are Black? He said yes. I then went on to say---while I was the one who sat next to you when our kindergarten teacher read us Charlotte's Web. But I'm datable, but not marriageable. So in his eyes---we're so inherently different because of our coloring, that even a similar culture couldn't mend that divide. There was more than just racism here---there is sexism and it also plays into the stereotype of the HYPERsexualized Black woman. bell hooks wrote about this regularly. Fuckable but not marriageable. It also plays into a lot of Early Feminist beliefs too.

Another instance was with a former employer. I will mention her background ...because there is a reason for it. She happens to be Jewish and her employer is self-identified Black (although of bi-racial lineage). One day we were in an office---doing a late night game plan for the following day. Air conditioner was turned off and no windows. I stated it was hot. Her response to me..."But your Black?" She realized she said something off but kept digging.."I mean Caribbean, you're from a hot country." I mention her background because maybe I was under this delusional idea that we were of a shared struggle, both our groups were persecuted so she would have been a bit more sensitive. It didn't seem to be the case. I have had many people tell me that this is not racist. I identified her statement as a racist statement which feeds off of very archaic stereotypes.

This is to lightly touch on the seeming divide when it comes to race. I have a friend who's biracial. Her mother is African-English and her father is English. She came out dark---caramel for instance with more so European features. Her father talked about what a great time they had in the some English country side. He said there was no racism, everyone was super friendly. Until his wife looked at him like he lost his mind. Apparently for her and her two children who came out dark and are Black people, they were hit with a lot of racism, from looks, to snide comments to straight racist attacks. The people were extremely hostile to them. He was oblivious to it all. He was in such shock he actually sat there silent when he heard. Then he got angry because they didn't tell him. They spent about a month there. It's not his fault---I don't think they saw him as part of the group--but independent. So he was treated differently. However he was there and didn't read the signs, unfortunately.

Another instance was just recently. My mother was watching her stupid religious channel. That Swaggert guy? My mum listens to the music---we have a thing for Christian music, although we're far from religious people. Anyway he was recounting a story of helping your fellow man. And in the story he did this....He began by saying he went by a KFC to get some food, and as he was there he met a woman. Then he made a point to emphasize she was a Black woman. Who was crying because she didn't have any money. So she apparently recognized him and then he gave her a $50 to pay her light bill. She was crying because she didn't have money for her light. Now, I'm sure to some they didn't pick up on the slight dig into Black women. I did, my mother did, and my sister did. My friend who's White, saw nothing wrong with the statement. It just went over his head. I said, if you're recounting a story of someone who is poor---there is no need to specify the race. Her race brought really nothing of significance to the story--except for what I picked up as a veiled dig at Black people. Kind of like..."Oh she was Black, typical." His point could have been clearly stated without an emphasis on her race. And the way he said it, made it seem as though the Black woman was crying because she recognized him and figured she could weasel some money out of him. This was the impression I was given from his story. Needless to say my mother decided to focus on her crossword and tivo her christian singing and my sister and I left the room in disgust.

I then remember asking my White friend about this. Because I tend to notice that---there seems to always be an emphasis to define many of us by our race. I'll explain this. This is where the issue of Blackness in our society comes in and racism in the media. This is continuous and has yet to change. I was watching the news. And there were two reports of violence. They said...the policing are looking for 3 Black males height were 5'8-6'2, 2 were overweight from the ages of 15-24. Another report, and this is a true report...4 teens were said to have bought a turkey and went to a highway bridge and threw the turkey into the highway. They were 2 boys and two girls. Notice what was missing in the two reports--or the key element. Mainly race. That was when I knew, oh..when there is no race mentioned then they are White. But when there is race they identify. Another report a following day---Two, what appears to be, White Hispanics were seen blah blah blah. When they say White Hispanic in New York---it's a clue into most likely Puerto Rican. Or that's what I've seen.

And he media continuously propagates this. We saw pundits on both side of the aisle saying Obama is either too Black or he's too White. Even in my Ethnic Politics class my teacher stated---that many biracial men tend to marry African American women to solidify their place in the community. I remember hearing this stated as well in the media. As though Michelle Obama was a prop to get Obama ahead. Women on the left---made a lot of veiled commentary about President Obama.

They made Obama an example of what went on during the early Feminist movement. Where the Black man was given an advantage over White women. This is both a play on sexism and racism. This is actually something that is rarely if ever really talked about. This double interplay that went on. Some feminist felt that it's Obama's role as a man in a patriarchal society that allowed him the President. So he didn't really earn it, it was his birth right through his gender. But the second part of that--is when they compare it to early history---many early Feminist were not only upset about the 3/5ths rule because they were men---but because they were Black. When this comparison is used...there is absolutely no way to deny White Liberal racism. Don't get me wrong---I think many White women would decry this is not about race. But the comparison was made and the race is a factor. Early Feminist didn't think slaves deserved any rights what so ever---we have to remember these people were of the elite. You can't just ignore it, or erase it as though it did not exist. I'm always shocked when there are people shocked by being called out when they made that relation. I'm not even trying to rehash any primary war. This is to explain a fact that was going on during the primaries.

This also brings into play the Black woman vote. This doesn't even really exist in the political world---or the political pundit world. At one point it was mentioned but then ignored for the White woman vote. While it was so easy to lump all of us Black people as one vote for Obama. They ignored how gender played a part. I strongly believe that Black women were on the fence between two candidates. Let's be honest here---the two candidates were very similar. Some people just feel more in line with Obama's position--which wasn't very different. I do think race, gender, (religion) and ideology all played a part in this election. I don't really think it's possible to divorce these three things during the 2008 election. I think many Black women were probably in the Clinton camp, she was familiar, she wasn't that different from Obama, and she was a woman. She's one of our own. She's a strong woman with a law degree; she accomplished a great deal for herself. Obama was a man, but then he was Black and he was not that different from HRC. I think the real push for Obama came from many extremely racialized comments that were scandalized from the HRC camp. I don't want to make this a primary war---I'm speaking frankly about this. I personally didn't care between HRC and Obama. But Obama is our President and I support him so I do defend him from time to time. And I can say---I was sort of pushed to his side because of some comments from people who supported HRC. I felt HRC was not involved but I didn't want anything to do with that environment---the racism was enough to repel me. The factor of religion was also tied to racism in the 2008 primaries and still in full affect to this day. The hatred of Islam and muslims in this country is profound. And is actually very racist in origins. They played Obama out to be a villain.

I've said this in the past and I'll say it again. I felt that when Obama decided to run for President he basically was giving me a crash course in the Civil Rights movement. It was then that I was really seeing racism, blatant racism from the Republican camp---but also some coming out of the Democrat camp. I think most of the racism in the Democrat camp doesn't have the same root. I had a teacher who stated---"Don't you notice the more PC someone tries to be...the more the veiled racism comes out." <---Because they're working on presumptions. I have no name for it---but it's sort of lack of communication, misunderstandings, or no understandings.


I just wanted to share a bit of my past. Kind of show different forms of racism or what I defined to be as racism. I don't know how many people share their stories...or how many people have really openly discussed it to outsiders. This is not something I find particularly special or unique. Just a perspective from a Black person. Thoughts and views are welcome---good or bad.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. Very nice vaberella
I haven't gone through the whole thing yet but this part stuck out to me:

I don't know if all Black people go through this, all Black adolescents, but I think we do have it at one point or another. I'm sure my fellow AA posters can let me know their thoughts on it. I hated being Black.

I am so sorry that you went through that. I have never for one second EVER hated being black. I think it's because I grew up in an all black environment and was taught every day that being black was a gift.

My doctors were black. My teachers were black. My principals were black. Hell, even my mayors were black. :) I have always grown up with an incredibly strong "Black and Proud" and "I can be anything I want to be" vibe. This song was one of my theme songs growing up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgaTcpn1hbE

Maybe it's because my mother was a Black Panther back in the day. Maybe it's because my family made damn sure that I knew of the personal trials and tribulations our family had endured, including lynchings and countless how many indignities suffered as a result of the color of their skin. Maybe it's a Southern thing, I don't know.

Whatever it was, I thank God for it every single day of my life because my unshakable belief in my culture, in the unappreciated but undying strength, brilliance and beauty of black people as a whole, very much shaped me into the person that I am. This belief has stayed with me and will for the rest of my life and it will be a blessing to pass this onto my children.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Wow. That could be the defining point.
I have NEVER lived in an all Black community. I was always 1 of 3 or 4 Black students. Or self-identified Black. Majority of the students were either Hispanic or White---my communities were never Black dominated. Sadly no role models but my parents. I never even had a Black teacher until I was 25 and was going for my second degree. During my whole early school years not one teacher was Black or even Hispanic for that matter.

I'm glad you had that. I never saw how probably important it was that I had that background. I do regret each and every day that I did not decide to go to a historically Black university. Thanks for sharing...I think you nailed a possible reason I such problems with my identity growing up and I never really associated to the lack of representation.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Thank you for this, vab
As the mother of two little girls (currently) in a predominately non-black environment, you've definitely given me something to think about. :)

Luckily, where we are (right now) is very multi-cultural. But as we all know, even the most multi-cultural environments can be bombarded with a very narrow definition of what is beautiful, desirable, ideal etc. And right now, my babies are definitely not getting the message that tawny skin (unless gotten unnaturally, of course), big brown eyes and heads full of curly, dark hair are the ideal.

I was bombarded with all of that growing up too but I was fortunate to live in an environment where even though "the outside world" celebrated everything but black beauty, we more than made up for it within our community. I worry about this for my daughters, so your perspective is really important to me. Thank you, vab.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
35. going off topic
but following your post do you think AA children are better served by an all AA school experience?do you think the current system,with a mixed race faculty provides enough positive to counterweigh the day to day negatives?
these are serious questions i am looking for a little insight and discussion.i am also in no way advocating segregation.
i know for instance when classes are seperated by gender (after pubescence)both genders will relate higher scores.
i have always been apart from both sides of my own racial makeup so i find the subject interesting.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. That's really an interesting question
I can't speak for all black children, but I know that having an all black environment certainly shaped me and made me incredibly proud of my racial heritage. I never once had to worry about a teacher not liking me/disciplining me more strictly etc. because I was black as I've heard countless times from other black people.

I grew up in an all black environment until I went to college where I went to the biggest, whitest school around. I was interested in the rest of the world and to be honest, I kept hearing that black people were a minority but I honestly had no idea what that meant until the second I arrived at my university campus. :) And there, I learned first hand what it was like to be treated differently and to have lesser/greater expectations solely because of my skin color. It was an eye-opening experience to say the least.

I had many friends from back home who did go to HBCU's (historically black colleges and universities) and every single one had at least ten stories of black kids they knew that got to the college campus and openly wept. It was the first time in their lives that they hadn't been the first or only or one of 5 black kids in their class and they were literally overwhelmed with joy.

So I guess what I'm saying is that segregation is harmful, but that SELF-segregation can have some benefits, if that makes any sense.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-11 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. yes it does make sense
and thanks for the response
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styersc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. One comment in your post is the secret that we must face.
Racism in this country was developed and encouraged to supplant economic division. We have been encouraged to identify with people of our own race so we don't focus on the real division of haves and have nots. Poor whites, for some reason identify with rich whites rather then their African-American neighbors in the same economic boat. This way a poor white man can rail against the minority woman he watched buy twinkies with an EBT card while he defends the white billionaire banker who is screwing him everyday.

We cannot fall into the trap. Our humanity unites us. Our station binds us and our recognition of this strengthens us. We have to be there for each other.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thank you. n/t
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Very true.
Edited on Thu Sep-29-11 06:23 AM by vaberella
Sadly here thought I think race and economics are intimately connected. In Haiti for instance that is not the case. There is are clear lines. If you are lucky enough to be a rich Black man, you are same as a White man for instance. It's the rich that rule and the have nots...have not. But in the US---sadly I don't think we can separate the two when we are trying to change things.

They will always be tied together. This is where institutionalized racism because so starkly apparent and when the economic collapse happened it affected the Black minority so negatively or worse than any other racial group in America. Their disproportion is always very apparent.

But you are right. I think it's also another reason why so many Blacks have a instinctive distrust towards the government, regardless of party.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Yes, and the point about identifying poverty with African-Americans is a good one
I'm old enough to remember when the War on Poverty started. The images used to impress upon people the need for a War on Poverty were multiracial: not just inner city blacks but also Native Americans in South Dakota or whites in Appalachia.

Fast forward to the Reagan administration, and all of a sudden, all media portrayals of poor people showed African-Americans, and usually not WORKING poor African-Americans, but the stereotyped "drug dealer's baby mamas" types.

What a diabolical ploy: use racism to justify not providing a social safety net.

The identification of African-Americans with crime began even earlier. I'll never forget a horrific case that occurred while I was living on the East Coast between 1973 and 1981. Some teenage thugs who were angry at a subway ticket seller for calling the cops on them burned her to death. When the thugs were tried as adults and their pictures were published in the New York Times, I recall some of my fellow Ivy League graduate and professional students saying in astonishment, "But they're white!"

And they were surprised because...?

Thanks for an insider's view.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you. K&R n/t
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. Brown paper bag test
The "brown paper bag test" was a ritual once practiced by certain African-American and Creole fraternities and sororities who discriminated against people who were "too dark." That is, these groups would not let anyone into the sorority or fraternity whose skin tone was darker than that of a paper lunch bag, in order to maintain a perception of standards. Spike Lee's film School Daze satirized this practice at historically black colleges and universities.

Along with the "paper bag test," guidelines for acceptance among the lighter ranks included the "comb test," which tested the coarseness of one's hair, and the "flashlight test," which tested a person's profile to make sure their features measured up or were close enough to those of the Caucasian race.<5>

Colorism is prevalent in the job application process as well; research shows that a light-skinned African-American male with a bachelor's degree and mediocre experience is more likely to be hired for a typical job than a dark-skinned man with a Masters in Business Administration and past experience in the field.<6>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_based_on_skin_color

I remember first hearing about this while watching a sitcom (Sanford and Son?, Barney Miller?).

Thanks for writing about your experiences and insights.

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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I get the feeling this was done to me.
I don't remember in what situation this happened or who did it. But I do remember being tested with the paper bag (I was lighter than one). I don't know if it was a cousin who did this---probably something she was studying. Or if it was somewhere else. Thanks for information on it. I have to try to remember when this happened.

I am aware of the colorism factor--this influences institutionalized racism.

Sanford and Son I think did address it. I know The Jeffersons definitely addressed it, as well as, "passing".
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. I failed one once. It was real fun.
Boys my hue from families similar to mine had access and indeed my surname had resonance. However, entry was restricted to those girls whose light skin or eyes and good hair proved their pedigree.

The Caucasians got the same stupid going with the "blonde" and redhead bias thing. Ever wonder how many bottles of that poisonous "good hair" stuff are sold each day? :rofl: Or how that number compares to "whitening creams?" :crazy:

The Japanese are into white paint and natural curliness on your head is erraaa... Perhaps both best avoid the rain. :evilgrin:

I've listened to Moroccans and Brazilians discuss this topic in two languages, neither native to either. My ears still ring.

The one I would counsel you to make a mad dash for the Powder Room is the one in which a Westerner (of ANY stripe) challenges an Indian believer about a possible skin colour component to the caste system. Seen it more than several times; never ended well. You think AMIS are defensive! :scared::hide::scared:

Vabbiekins, this shit is EVERYWHERE! Easily a decade ago, I saw an interview with a woman who must have been in her 70's talking about being a brown-haired, brown-eyed girl in class during the Third Reich. The teacher summoned the blond to the front of the class; the symbol of all virtue. She broke down crying retelling the tale. A=440. If the string is properly tuned, it will vibrate in the presence of the tuning fork. ;-)

I salute you for putting SO MUCH out here. :patriot:

:hug:

Tante K.











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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. Your contribution to this discussion is invaluable
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. It is moving, and enlightening and educational. And I think looking at the world through a different perspective helps us understand and hopefully bridge divides.

You said "something happens to trigger everything that existed in the past." That really struck me, because I think when something happens, not only does it trigger everything that existed in the past, that "everything bundle" is used as a tool (or a sword). For example, we cannot deny that racism and sexism were used against Obama and Clinton during the primaries. And, we cannot deny that racism is used as a tool against Obama in an attempt to keep him a "one term president."

Your contribution, along with MHP article is eye-opening--and hopefully mind-opening!
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I hope so.
It's something I enjoy talking about. I took an Ethnic policy class once and I was hoping we'd have an open and honest exchange. Instead there was definite racism coming from some people and my teacher ended being a referee---so the civil discussion turned into a match of wills and several people left the room and others just stopped talking.

I always get the feeling like a group of people should randomly be forced to sit in a room to hash out some issues.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. defense
I think is a very personal topic and people get defensive. The accusation of racism is stinging. (I got it during the primaries, right here on DU when I supported Clinton)--and that accusation ended any chance at communication. I was offended, and defensive and was closed off from any discussion or any willingness to understand why someone would call me that.

Even now, I am staving off the urge to defend myself against that long ago accusation--rather than have a discussion.


So, learning about other people's experiences is a start.
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Empowerer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I understand your frustration with being characterized as something you're not, but it is important
to also consider the context from which such accusations come. Often, for example (I'm not saying this is what happened in your case), even the mere suggestion that someone might be insensitive or prejudiced triggers a hyper-defensive pushback based upon a false assumption that one has been called a racist. Included in that are often demands that the other person show empathy for where this person is coming from, what their experiences are and why whatever they said or did that provoked the questions should be seen in light of those experiences so that they'll know that they really aren't racist, prejudiced, biased.

But, by the same token, little effort is made to understand the experiences and perspectives that would lead someone to be suspicious or sensitive to perceived discrimination. THOSE folks are dismissed as hysterical, overreacting, etc.

No one wants to be accused of being something they're not. But, on the other hand, no one wants to have their reality dismissed, demeaned and belittled.

I hope threads like these help us to better understand other perspectives on this issue, and as a result, reach some common ground.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That is it in a nutshell, imho...
"But, by the same token, little effort is made to understand the experiences and perspectives that would lead someone to be suspicious or sensitive to perceived discrimination. THOSE folks are dismissed as hysterical, overreacting, etc.

No one wants to be accused of being something they're not. But, on the other hand, no one wants to have their reality dismissed, demeaned and belittled."


That is the crux of the discord I'm witnessing with regard to the MHP blowup.

I'm also witnessing something else fairly common at DU: Either the reluctance or inability to multitask.

I believe we can discuss the realities of institutional racism and bigotry, while we simultaneously discuss policy. The discussion of the former shouldn't negate discussion of the latter as so many feel is the case.

Racism and bigotry do, in fact, affect economic policy. Everything is connected. We can approach our problems and solutions from a multitude of levels and directions, imho.

That's how I see it, at least.

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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. The problem was.
No one was accusing anyone. But when one person states..."I have N's in my blood line." One gets a bit defensive.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
12. k&r
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Empowerer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. Vabarella - this is a beautiful, heartfelt and insightful post - so much for people to learn from it
I think many African Americans - especially black women - can identify with your experiences and perceptions because we share many, if not most or all of them.

Thank you so much for this. I hope people take the time to read, learn and consider everything you've written so beautifully.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you for your story.
People need to listen more, and assume nothing, no matter how much they *think* they know of the experiences of all POC.

And assuming that there is no racism coming from the left side of the aisle is ludicrous, it absolutely exists.
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Moosepoop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
Vaberella, I have one question (well, many -- but one to start with) ...

I'm White, and I've lived my entire life in a small town that is mainly White, with few Black families. There is straight-up racism, and also a fair amount of just plain ignorance. I was fortunate enough to be raised with the concept that all races are equal, period, but many around me were not.

When something racist/ignorant is said outside the presence of a Black person, I make my opinion known. I'm somewhat legendary for my "lectures" to other people when it comes to race and some other matters, as was my mother.

So far, I haven't witnessed anything overtly racist said in the presence of a Black person, but if I did, how should I handle it? Should I follow my instinct and jump in and verbally pummel the person, or let the Black person handle it and follow his/her lead?

On occasion someone will say something ignorant in the presence of a Black person, not meaning to be hurtful but just being ignorant. For instance, what you said about friends who tan saying "I'm almost as Black as..." -- I've heard that very thing being said, and TO the Black friend himself, as in "I'm almost as Black as you are!!". The Black friend laughed it off.

In such a circumstance, what is the right thing for a White person to do? Should I have said something, or should I have followed the Black person's lead and let it go? I didn't want to create "waves" for the Black friend when he didn't seem to want to make an issue of it. I did ream the other guy a new one privately later, but he never quite understood what he had said wrong. Sigh.

I guess what I'm asking is what is the right thing for me to do when racism/ignorance happens to a Black person in front of me? Do I lead, follow, or get out of the way? I don't want to imply by reacting that any Black person cannot defend himself/herself, or choose when or how to handle it. Nor do I want to stir up controversy that the Black person (having to live in this very White town) may be trying to avoid. But at the same time, I just don't feel right saying nothing, as that feels as though I'm conveying that I approve of and condone the behavior. I don't.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, and thank you for the OP. :)


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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thank you for sharing your poignant story. Your perspective is invaluable.
:pals:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. K&R
:kick:
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. This is an excellent post
K&R
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. This is a very good thread
I'm delighted to see people actually communicating in thoughtful and mature ways. It doesn't happen often enough, but it's why I like DU and why I signed up after many years of lurking.

Thanks to everyone for their contribution.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. K&R. Great post.
Not sure why it needs to be hidden away in GDP, though. :shrug: This is far bigger than the Presidency.
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CoffinEd Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
27. Extremely heartfelt and sincere post
Thanks for sharing. As a black man who grew up in the south and northeast (live in Boston now...Red Sox...big ouch!), I learned a long time ago about some of the things Obama's election taught you about race in the US. But at no point have I ever felt ashamed of being African American, and I think that has a lot to do with my family and circle of friends. However, I do know some black folks who have tried, by their own admission, to "whiten" their surroundings and environments, which basically means they made an extra effort to avoid all things black.

As for this observation:

"Even in my Ethnic Politics class my teacher stated---that many biracial men tend to marry African American women to solidify their place in the community. I remember hearing this stated as well in the media. As though Michelle Obama was a prop to get Obama ahead. Women on the left---made a lot of veiled commentary about President Obama."

This is true to a certain degree. However, all the biracial (black/white) men I know tend to marry black women mainly because the men self-identify as "black" and not because they are trying to "solidify their place in the community." Many biracial (black/white) women tend to do the same thing, for example Melissa Harris-Perry who was formerly Melissa Harris-Lacewell. She's been married to two black men.

And, yes, most black people are mixed with something or another. You should see some of my relatives in Louisiana, where I was born. But they would be highly offended if you label them as anything other than African American/black.

Anyway, I hope a lot of people can understand and learn from your words and experiences.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Fantastic post, CoffinEd
You should see some of my relatives in Louisiana, where I was born. But they would be highly offended if you label them as anything other than African American/black.

You raise a really interesting point.

This week in Australia, there was a huge story about a (conservative) white journalist who was sued by several Aboriginal Aussies. A few years ago, this "journalist" wrote a series of articles criticizing these people because they are all very light-skinned Aboriginals. According to this person, because of their light skin they weren't really Aboriginal and they were only "pretending" to be Aboriginal to get opportunities they didn't deserve.

They sued his ass. And I am happy to say that they won!! http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/breaking-news-blog/andrew-bolt-found-guilty/20110928-1kw78.html And as more than one of them commented, "I don't have to prove who I am to anyone."

This story reminds me so much of the "discussion" amongst some whites about whether Obama is truly black or not. The continued need to remind everyone that he is bi-racial or comments that he "is as white as he is black." Obama identifies HIMSELF as a black man. His white mother also identified him as a black man and I'm willing to bet that his wife, children, friends etc. all identify him as a white man.

Just as these Aboriginals, some of whom have blonde hair and blue eyes, have earned the right to identify themselves, I think so has this president. And those who insist on pretending that he is anything but what he says he is, which is to say A BLACK MAN, need to ask themselves exactly why this is something they have such a problem with.
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CoffinEd Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. You're much to kind
But thanks anyway. And good for the Aboriginals!

Can't speak for other folks, but I take my cue from the president himself. If he self-identifies as a black man, then who am I to say he isn't. And in no way does Obama calling himself a blackman diminish the impact his mother and grandparents had on his life. I would hope most people know that.



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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
28. Your other OP this week was excellent but you've really outdone yourself here
Very nice. I've read through it all now. So happy to rec.

I think it's really important that you touched on the all too real SUBTLE type of racism that exists on both sides. People can scream all day and night that racism is solely a conservative/Republican by-product but very few who have ever been impacted by racism will agree with that.

Your thoughts on how black women are marginalized and ignored are excellent and I agree with them. And I share your opinion that this probably has something to do with why MHP's piece caused such an uproar.

It's really very generous of you to do this. Many of us don't even bother trying to explain anything anymore. Too worn out and beaten down by being told we don't know what we're talking about or are "too sensitive." This is a very good thing that you've done here.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
30. Wow. Thank you.
What a wonderful post. Thank you.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. Thanks for starting this conversation
Very interesting for this middle aged white foreign born woman.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-11 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. K & R
Antisemitism is also alive and well.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
34. i love this
i am from east tennessee and am biracial native/white and i have very european features
when i was young we moved to florida but when we go back to the homeplace i always get treated to something stupid
which island are your family from?i try to get to the islands when i can and spice hunt
virgin island oregano.....sigh or bay leaf from st thomas frsh cinammon bark allspice wood
customs always gets a laugh out of my luggage
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
36. The other party in a fender bender once confused the heck out of me.

I was 99% at fault for the accident. My car went into a spin. As was a bit irritated that the other car continued driving in the lane beside me instead of braking or accelerating away from me. So their one precent contribution was their failure to avoid being hit by my car!

Back to my point, with nobody injured and only slight damage we waited around for the cops for a half hour or so. When the cops showed, after a half hour of waiting, everybody in the other car took off running. Cops asked if they had attacked or threatened me which they had not. Cops were as confused as I was (though they shouldn't have been). A minute later they came sheepishly back to the scene.

Flash-forward a few years. My (now ex-)wife and I came home to find a dog we were dog-sitting had escaped the upstairs and killed a cat she had lived with for most of her life. She runs screaming out the door, "he killed my baby!". Unsurprisingly, somebody hearing that called the cops. By the time they get there, we have a crowd standing around the backyard. The cops walk into the midst of the crowd, grab the sole Black man in the group who was still dressed in his bus-driver's uniform, and throw him into the back of the squad car. We started to argue, but he told us to let it go as this is just how Black men are treated. They, of course, let him go. But it was a mind-opening shock to the rest of us.

That is when I finally understood what happened in the earlier incident. The other party in that automobile were Black. Apparently, incidents like the second one I describe had instilled a flight reflex when they saw the cops even though they had no reason to run away.

And, of course, most White people to whom I tell this believe that I am leaving out something. They figure he must have had a few run-ins with the law (he hadn't), or said something stupid (he never said a word until they started leading him away. But I lived only a block away from a police station. So I see a lot of cops in the local bars. When I tell them this story, they just shrug and say they would have done the same thing. "Most Black men are dangerous criminals," they will say. Not the sort of statement you are going to hear them (knowingly) make in front of a camera. But I'm a White guy. They assume I don't care (or that I agree).

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. I've seen the same thing. Thanks for posting that.
As somebody important once said, all it takes for evil to prevail is for decent people to do nothing. It's our obligation to speak up when we see any kind of discrimination.

Discrimination inflicted by the cops is particularly scary as they have a lot of power. There are lots of groups who have very reasonable fears of authorities. Immigrants, people of color, gay people in bars, transgender people, women peacefully protesting on Wall Street...
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Unfortunately, you have to see it to believe it.
Edited on Fri Sep-30-11 01:15 PM by ieoeja
I've seen way too many people sincerely shocked when someone assaulted them (so to speak) when they were "asking for it". So if I hadn't seen it so absolutely blatantly, I would have continued thinking, "yeah, sure, you only *think* you didn't do anything".

I still tend to *believe* that way on a case by case basis. But I no longer make any *judgements* based on that belief. At least where this is concerned.

For that matter, I can't tell you the number of times I have gotten into arguments with the old guys at the local pub over a bunch of "gangbangers". To a lot of these guys any teenager with baggy pants is a gangbanger. Nevermind that straight-A, never been in trouble a day of their lives, teens were wearing the baggy pants for awhile there.

Sometimes I think it would be great to be a bigot. No thinking required. Must be relaxing as heck.


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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Sort of like being a Republican. Wait.
:)
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
39. thanks for this great post -- k/r
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-11 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thank you for this post vaberella
It is very insightful and much appreciated. I am a white woman that lives in and grew up in a very rural-white area. I read your entire post and all the comments. I want to thank you for being one of the few black students in a predominately white school... That takes courage - even if you didn't know it at the time. It also helps shape the lives of your fellow classmates... even if you didn't know it at the time.

Most of my older family members, and friends of my parents who had influence over my younger years are honestly quite ignorant when it comes to race. Ethnic and racial jokes were rampant, warnings to lock car doors and hide my purse as a teen when I would go to the mall with friends had very racial undertones... This is how I grew up... Being kind to others without regard to their skin color was instilled but so were jokes and fear. If it weren't for the few black people or hispanic or asian or gay people that I came to know, it might have been easy for me to dehumanize and fall into the same racist.. (but not really racist in the minds of some of my fellow rural white people b/c we say to be kind) mind set. I still live in my little rural world.. so I am not exposed to much multiculturalism. I think the internet and DU do help to open minds and increase understanding... but the people that I did meet and get to know that came from different backgrounds has by far been the biggest gift to my understanding and hopefully evolution.
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