In regards to the race issue...

[vaberella]

I had written a great deal, but then I realized there was no real clarity of views that I wanted to target. So I'm going to try to sharpen my statements right now.

Let me begin by stating that I think DU needs to really get a clue and create a thread for a thoughtful discussion on race. And please no modding---at this point, we need to air out the closet. I have found this tiptoed on DU quite a bit and I'm sorry to say that DU has had a history at times of making those of us who are non-white particularly unwelcome. For instance, when shit went down in California and prop8. I definitely left DU. I was gone for a while. I was in awe, shock, and was extremely disheartened when I saw post after post describing Black people as generally anti-LGBT community. As though there are no Blacks who are part of the LGBT---shit--as though ALL Blacks voted for prop8. Actually as though none of us on DU who are Black would either be part of the LGBT or have family who are dear to us who are part of the community. Yeah, it was definitely unwelcoming. Am I putting DU on blast, in a way.

I think I have a right to vent and share when I felt unwelcome here and I found it hostile to Black peoples. There were actually a number of other instances ---one recently is when there are people who support posts in which people describe Black people as racial voters. As though we ONLY voted for Obama based on the color of his skin and no other. I would have hoped this sort of argument would have been dispelled. I think these things need to be talked about, aired out so to speak---and many of these things I've kept to myself or can be found in the African-American section of DU. I don't know how many on DU who are White go there to see or hear what we are talking about. We were marginalized on television as more of a zombie vote, and we are further marginalized on a liberal site in the same way.

Am I suggesting that DU fits Melissa Harris-Perry's statement? No. I found her use of racism to be a misnomer. I don't have a word for it, but I found the word racism a bit unfitting. I do agree with her that I have found they do tend to hold Obama to a higher standard than Clinton. However, I think this is not taking into consideration the history of Clinton and we're looking at post his presidency. I'm sure there were millions of people who turned on Clinton when he made so many mistakes in his presidency. I think even DU, if it was around would have been calling for Clinton's impeachment in some cases because they were so angry. So on that regard, I think she was being a loose with her statement. However, if we do look at the Democratic party as a whole---I think it's safe to say we do have a few racists in the bunch.

For example, when Obama finally got DADT cleared during the lame-duck season---many people on huffpost were happy but when there was a picture of a gay couple kissing---there were just as many people saying---"I'm not ready to see that." "Huffpost--please take down the picture." <----When these people were called homophobic---they also took up the liberal hat and suggested..."I have gay friends." I was definitely offended by that.

Another example was when I saw people on different sites supporting the shit coming out of the mouth of Tavis Smiley or particularly Cornell West. Cornell West pushed a completely racist, and I mean seriously racialized comment that was so volatile and polemic I thought it would get no support. However people supported it----mainly White liberals supported it. Which boggled the hell out of me. Especially when Cornell West stated that Obama couldn't understand poverty because he was raised by a White mother and family. So basically his whiteness caused him to be disconnected. And yet...there were White Liberals in complete support.


^^ I think this is really where Melissa Harris-Perry is coming from. There was a good backlash from Black liberals across the board against the statements Cornell West made. Melissa Harris-Perry was one of them. Actually she was the one who struck first and was attacked by some liberals and other Blacks for not supporting Cornell West's statements. I sadly have to say---Cornell Wests' statements were racially charged against Obama, actually against his White side, but was supported by many White Liberals---for what reason I'm not sure--Actually I don't even remember one White Liberal speaking out against Wests' statements---only Black Liberals. Maybe because it was a critique of Obama's disconnect, or maybe they wanted a critique. And went with Wests' vitriolic nonsense.

I actually believe majority of the Black members of DU have condemned Wests' comments as well as Tavis Smiley. While on another side he's hailed. And it's when I look at this particular incident and a few others I can sort of marry what Harris-Perry is talking about. I have to say... I don't think Clinton was called out for being White so he hence his disconnect with the poor. I think, and this is my own interpretation--that situation rubbed her the wrong way and this was manifested in other articles she might have read. ie Shaped her way of thinking. I think her statement was definitely broad---but there is some relevance when looking at some situations.

Another point that needs to be mentioned is that unfortunately, for many Blacks---me included, we find America to be a White America. Black President is irrelevant. Even when looking at the 2008 election what do we see. Blacks are seen as mindless zombies. An idea which has been propagated here and other boards and sites. As though Blacks only voted for Obama on race, when Obama wasn't even having a chance with the Black community early on---were automatically deemed HRC's automatic votes. When Obama started gaining the Black vote---our vote was then marginalized to a racial status. We weren't relevant. And I am sorry to say this has been stated in many places and has left me fuckin' offended. I don't think many of us here can deny we not have run across this sort of meme on other liberal boards or even subtlety put in articles.

The media didn't even give us the vote--our vote counted as one for Obama. While Obama was always either losing the White male vote or the White female vote. So minorities were shit in the scheme of things. This shows how marginalized we are. Shit...when we have people describing us as a race---you can see how far we have NOT come. In America we are still Whites, Blacks, and so on and so forth. But rarely are we part of the human race.

Another point that needs to mentioned. I don't think any group can fully understand the struggle of another group. White Women will never understand what Black women suffered in America. Maybe Black, Hispanic, and Native American women actually have a stronger relationship as far as struggles go. However, admittedly a great book called Latino's Inc. Shows the difference between Blacks and Hispanics clearly. In any event, our existence in America is heavily charged. Don't get me wrong. The life I've lived and the things I've accomplished I thank America for. I always state I was created in Haiti but made in America. And I am an American through and though. However, I also have to state I feel like I'm pulled into two worlds.

I have the world I have to fit in---ie White America and what those things denote. And I have the world I'm familiar with which is the Black community. They are not unified. They're very separate to me. I'm sure fellow Black posters can attest that there's a different way of living, vernacular and style of speech tends to change ---code switching, style of dress and interaction is very different. I had many White friends who didn't want to be out after dark with me in Harlem. Harlem of all places. I'm like no one is going to hurt you. I had a White person actually insult me by saying---she was entering my friends building and I was going in. She was like yeah..."I moved here a year ago. You know paying my due's." <----HELL YES I was offended. I wasn't living in Harlem to pay my dues. That place is home. I love Uptown New York. Kiss my ass paying your due's--because to me, it came across as though she's passing through and finds Harlem below her. When people talk like that---we get offended.

I think also...White people just don't know anything about Black people. I think Black people are raised in a way to conform or try to marry two identities, their own and the society they live in. I remember my friend (Black male) who told me could NEVER date a White Woman, he doesn't even find them attractive. I'm the opposite---as long as your male, have a decent fico score, and not married---it's fair game. ^_^ He was raised by Black women, his grandmothers, mother, older sisters and aunts. Dad wasn't in the picture. And they drilled into him no White woman. He came to develop a complex about interracial dating and he can't do it. I remember when my cousin came to America, from Haiti, my mother sat him down and said---have fun, but stay away from the cops and White women----it's as though Black men are Samson and White women are their Delilah's. The warnings is not a racial---in the sense of a racist warning. It's a warning to be careful...because you could lose your life, or at least your free will. While on the other end, it's more of a "Black men are dangerous." Or some association with a negative stereotype towards Black men. I mean it's ditto for Black women too---ours is more of being a novelty ornament than a significant person.

And I think this is where it is. Currently there is a response about Melissa Harris-Perry's retort to Joan Walsh's comment. Harris-Perry is considered too harsh for stating "you're not my friend"---I'm like in my world she's on point. There is nothing wrong with her statement. While it seems to be taken as inflammatory by others. I've been known to say the same thing and I don't see anything harsh in it.

I realize this is a little long. It's not supposed to come across as too broad based, and there is a slight defense of Harris-Perry---but the main point is that we do need healthy dialogue and I think many of us who are in the AA camp have been marginalized or ignored...especially what we might have felt offended by on DU and by other liberals. Sadly, I was extremely hurt when the prop8 situation was made to be the fault of Blacks in California---it just painted some White Liberals in a negative light so I actually saw some of Harris-Perry's argument, even if I do find the "racism" tag might slightly too harsh---I'd find some other way to define, but no words have come to mind.

[frazzled]

1. I agree with almost all of what you have said

That Black people can be often lumped together and stereotyped here, and for that reason made to be felt unwelcome. (I see it also with other groups, such as Jews who feel unwelcome when the AIPAC rants about influencing American policy seem to include everyone from the vastly varied Jewish community, many of whom do not support Israeli policies but who are sensitive to the history of suggesting "Jewish influence" over government actions).

That Melissa Harris-Perry may have used the wrong word, but that she was on to something that is deep and real, and unlikely to be acknowledged.

That the West-Smiley proclamations that are sometimes heralded here were racially charged. I got that from early on in the primaries in 2007, when I heard the two of them discussing on NPR how Obama was "not really a brother." I was pretty amazed.

That we can't really understand the struggles of another group. And that stands for all of us, whether we're white, black, gay, women, or any combination or subset of these.

What I don't know is what we do about it. Except to say: when someone tells you they have been offended or that they feel something displays bias, you need to take them at their word and try to understand. And that to dismiss the charges is to dismiss their very humanity.

Thank you for taking the time to lay out your perspective so eloquently.

[vaberella]

5. Thanks for reading. You definitely put down all I said in a shorter format.

Thanks for that. I really don't know where we got from there. Maybe we just have to make a conscious effort to be a bit more sensitive to everyone's plight I guess. And work through that. I mean at first I used to dismiss reverse racism, although I still don't call it reverse racism----I do see where these people are coming from.

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Thank you, frazzled, and vaberella...

I, too, feel this conversation is long overdue.

No accusations, no defensive posturing, just listening to the other person.

Vaberella, you already enlightened me about something I never knew or considered.

I remember when my cousin came to America, from Haiti, my mother sat him down and said---have fun, but stay away from the cops and White women----it's as though Black men are Samson and White women are their Delilah's. The warnings is not a racial---in the sense of a racist warning. It's a warning to be careful...because you could lose your life, or at least your free will. While on the other end, it's more of a "Black men are dangerous." Or some association with a negative stereotype towards Black men. I mean it's ditto for Black women too---ours is more of being a novelty ornament than a significant person.

I never, ever saw it that way before. That this warning isn't coming so much from a racial perspective (as though white women aren't good enough), but is based on the mortal danger this put black men in when dating white women in times past and, I suppose, fear of the same happening again.

Thank you for this OP.

HUGE K&R!

[Number23]

21. Your posts are excellent

That we can't really understand the struggles of another group.

I disagree, but only slightly. Our understanding may not come from personal experience, but I think that we can understand the struggles of different groups.

IE The work I've done with Aboriginals here in Australia, as a black chick born and raised in the States, I have not PERSONALLY experienced that pain and their struggle, but I can certainly understand what they are going through.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. I have some disagreements with what you said in some areas

However, I fully agree that the material rates additional free and open discussion. However, it also means that the cries of homophobia, racism etc will have to be ignored to if the discussion is to flourish. That alone would cause massive dissension here on DU. The West/Smiley comments are a good example of things that many cannot even accept discussion of yet.

[Enrique]

2. I read this whole post

it's about a good a start as I can imagine to the kind of discussion you are calling for.

The only thing I'd add is that like you, I thought Cornel West's statement was terrible. I actually thought he would apologize for it, which I don't think he has done. I'm not sure, but I don't think I've posted anything by West since then. Maybe I'm holding him to too high a standard. What do you think?

[vaberella]

3. I don't know. He lost any respect I had for him, after that post. n/t

[eridani]

13. Cornel West got WAY too personal, IMO

Seemed to me that he was far more concerned with perceived personal slights from Obama than with actual issues.

[Whisp]

4. K&R, very well said. and to frazzled:

'''when someone tells you they have been offended or that they feel something displays bias, you need to take them at their word and try to understand. And that to dismiss the charges is to dismiss their very humanity.'''

exactly. If someone suggests something you said is offensive to them why is it so difficult for some people to just simply accept this and work on doing better in the future.

why go into the bullying phase and yell about how offended the Bully is! It is very hurtful to tell someone their feelings are 'wrong' and you have more acceptable ones for them!

I am having issues similar to this with my sister, and just lately discovered she acts just like a bully with me. She is the one to decide how I should 'feel' about things. It just makes me crazy, and like frazzled said, it takes away my person a bit, my individuality doesn't feel respected or even recognized. It's one of the most awful feelings.

[vaberella]

7. Agreed, and thanks. n/t

[yardwork]

46. If a person says that this OP is hurtful to them because it singles out LGBTQ DUers as racists

do you take us at our word and try to understand? The evidence in this thread says no.

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. k&r

I think this is a good start to a conversation about this.

In general, I've found that telling people what I heard, and how that made me feel, is a better approach than telling someone else what they really think (even when they don't know it) and the reasons they think that way.

[Schema Thing]

8. Seven hundred :-D

[Bluenorthwest]

9. A link that shows a discussion by a gay white liberal and

Ms Perry, 5 days after the passage of Prop 8. Perry is pretty dead on it. As is Rachel. Interesting perspective and actual record of the conversation at the time, with actual Melissa to boot.
Just something to add to the mix. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcZVAlSqNbA

[These Eyes]

11. K&R

I haven't finished reading it and I want to respond, but I have to cook dinner.:-) What I have read is great! I'll finish reading and respond a little later.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

12. I wish that I could Kick and Recommend this thread a million times! Thank you so much!

:kick::kick::kick::kick:

[Solomon]

14. Thanks for saying what i'm too worn out to say.

It's easy to point to the bigotry of the right. I'm tired of holding my tongue about the kind on the left. Just like fish don't see the water they swim in, whites can't see that we are drenched in white supremacy.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

16. Your attack on GLBTQ DUers in this thread wipes out the credibility of your post.

Any sympathy that any GLBTQ poster might feel is completely negated by your attack on us in your OP. It is ironic that you would complain about being misunderstood and disrespected as a minority while beginning your OP with an attack on another minority group.

[These Eyes]

18. Please read it again. She is not attacking the GLBTQ DUers.

[Pab Sungenis]

22. The language she used in the opening of the thread

is almost the exact same language some of us have been using for months trying to actually solve the rifts between LGBT*.* users and certain people on here.

[vaberella]

28. What language...? Give me quotes that was so offensive? n/t

[Pab Sungenis]

92. This

Let me begin by stating that I think DU needs to really get a clue and create a thread for a thoughtful discussion on race. And please no modding---at this point, we need to air out the closet.

Is nearly word for word what Prism said months ago in ATA, which led to the late, lamentable "Mending Fences" thread. And considering your prior record with LGBT*.* posters, strikes at least some of us as a little offensive.

[vaberella]

27. What are you talking about? I have NEVER attacked GLBT posters on DU.

Give me the line and the statement that suggests an attack.

[yardwork]

35. You lead off an OP on oppression of one minority group by attacking another.

How would you feel if I posted an OP saying that I was tired of homophobia on DU and immediately accused African American DUers of being racist?

[vaberella]

74. I NEVER stated people in the LGBT community were racist. I actually said we suffered the same.

And one of the issues where many Liberals---many of whom were White--since those of us in the Black community spoke about it on the AA board, actually started making veiled racist comments was during the time of the prop8 decision. I never stated people in the LGBT community. I have no way of knowing who's part of the LGBT community on DU, unless they specifically say they are and during that time---I only knew 1 person. I never stated they did anything. I said DUers were accusing us of being at wrong.

You didn't read my post---you just went up in arms without reading it clearly.

[These Eyes]

36. I'm convinced that there are some people you just can't reason with.

Now you have folks turning this into an attack against the GLBTQ community. Other threads have been started insinuating black DUers are hypocrites for pointing out fascism when they are homophobic. Your post was clear and well written. I don't see how anyone can get the message of you OP twisted.

[yardwork]

38. Why are GLBTQ DUers mentioned at all in this OP? What was the purpose of this attack on us?

[These Eyes]

42. It is not an attack. She's simply stating how ugly things got around here after Prop 8.

And it was extremely ugly. Clearly, you and a few others want to take us back to that time because nothing - NOTHING - in Vabarella's op attacked anyone. Since no one who has claimed she has attacked GLBTQ DUers has yet to pinpoint the exact language that is offensive, I am left to believe that you are willfully twisting her message.

[yardwork]

43. Ok, I'll rewrite her OP but exchange LGBTQ people for another minority group.

Now imagine that I posted an OP that said this. These are exact quotes from the OP up above, with only the targeted group changed. I've put the ONLY changes in caps:

Let me begin by stating that I think DU needs to really get a clue and create a thread for a thoughtful discussion on HOMOPHOBIA. And please no modding---at this point, we need to air out the closet. I have found this tiptoed on DU quite a bit and I'm sorry to say that DU has had a history at times of making those of us who are GLBTQ particularly unwelcome. For instance, when shit went down in California and prop8. I definitely left DU. I was gone for a while. I was in awe, shock, and was extremely disheartened when I saw post after post describing GLBTQ people as generally RACIST. As though there are no GLBTQ who are part of the BLACK COMMUNITY---shit--as though ALL GLBTQ voted FOR RACISM. Actually as though none of us on DU who are GLBTQ would either be part of the BLACK COMMUNITY or have family who are dear to us who are part of the community. Yeah, it was definitely unwelcoming. Am I putting DU on blast, in a way.

I think I have a right to vent and share when I felt unwelcome here and I found it hostile to GLBTQ peoples. There were actually a number of other instances ---one recently is when there are people who support posts in which people describe GLBTQ people as racial voters. As though we ONLY voted for Obama based on HIS PROMISES TO THE GLBTQ COMMUNITY. I would have hoped this sort of argument would have been dispelled. I think these things need to be talked about, aired out so to speak---and many of these things I've kept to myself or can be found in the GLBTQ section of DU. I don't know how many on DU who are STRAIGHT go there to see or hear what we are talking about. We were marginalized on television as more of a zombie vote, and we are further marginalized on a liberal site in the same way.

.... and so forth. See how it sounds? Does anybody have any doubt that the OP would have been instantly locked if it said this? Yet, for some reason it is perfectly ok for the OP to single out LGBTQ people.

Again, I ask: what was the purpose of singling out the GLBTQ community on DU in this thread?

[These Eyes]

44. Okay, where's the problem?

It's not an attack. Since you took the time to rewrite the OP, take the time to actually read it for comprehension.

[yardwork]

45. The problem is that an OP about racism specifically targets LGBTQ DUers as the racists.

Why were LGBTQ people mentioned in this OP at all?

If I posted an OP about homophobia and specifically called out African American DUers as the homophobes, then you would certainly see a problem.

[These Eyes]

47. No one was targeted in the OP as racists. That much is clear.

You're determined to continue with your meme rather than actually reading the OP.

I'm done with this discussion.

[yardwork]

51. So my feelings and opinions don't matter.

[QC]

53. Something is only homophobic if the straight people think that it is homophobic.

Remember? That has long been the rule around here.

It's also an excellent example of privilege. It's funny, isn't it, how some people who are so attuned to the privilege of others cannot see their own. Reminds me of what someone once said about people who call out the mote in someone else's eye while ignoring the beam in their own.

[yardwork]

57. It is indeed a question of privilege. Good points.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

49. Again, you assume that the LGBT community is made up of only white LGBT.

You would be wrong.

[yardwork]

50. That assumption is inherent in the OP, which I did not write.

[SpartanDem]

55. I don't see her calling all LGBT racist

but OP clearly fear that that were SOME racism displayed a few LGBT DU'ers in regards to aftermath of prop 8.. That certainly is not an attack, it's an opinion.

[yardwork]

56. Why was it necessary to bring that up now?

It's just the latest in a long, uninterrupted line of accusations of racism against GLBTQ folks on DU. We've been called "stone cold racists." A "den of vipers." "LGBTQ made DU into a Klan rally after Prop 8." Many, many posts of that nature from the OP herself or "thumbs up!" by the OP. Many of those posts have never been deleted so they're searchable. Eventually the worst get deleted - after many, many alerts.

Meanwhile, I posted a thread a few months ago in which I noted that LGBTQ vote Democratic more often than straight people. That thread was instantly locked as hate speech. I was calling out straight people, you see.

It's fine to call out LGBTQ people on DU and call them racists over and over again. Straight DUers have that privilege.

[SpartanDem]

58. Why not now?

LGBT members have certainly started threads on past incidents on the board that they felt were homophobic. So why is this so out of bounds? It really wasn't the even focus of the OP, it was cited as an past example. If this was an blanket accusation against LGBT posters then would absolutely be wrong.

[yardwork]

59. Whenever LGBTQ DUers start threads about homophobia they are instantly locked

with the exception of the single thread that Skinner started called Mending Fences in the LGBTQ Forum. Every other OP and post that appears to "call out" any DUers or any group of DUers for homophobia is instantly locked. That's why we're angry about this. It's a clear double standard.

edit typo

[vaberella]

77. Because I was around during the time of Prop8---that was when I was around.

I came in May/June of 2008. So I was around when that happened and I felt unwelcome on DU at that time---around November/December. I don't see why this is hard to understand. I never stated it was people in the community who made Blacks feel uncomfortable---but DU generally speaking.

[Ignis]

99. +1

[vaberella]

76. I'm sorry, I didn't read anything wrong with the rewrite.

That is quite possible that happened. I believe I mentioned some thing of this nature happened in huffpost after DADT, where people in the GLBT community were basically still black listed because some Liberals weren't ready.

[yardwork]

83. Oh honey. Please.

[vaberella]

86. Thanks for the sardonic/condescending dismissal. n/t

[vaberella]

75. I mentioned them because it was during the time of the prop8 scandal.

That DUers were really taking out the blame on African Americans--as though there are no AA's who are in the LGBT community. That's all I said.

[jenmito]

17. WOW! I read this whole post and agree with everything you said...

to the best of my ability to relate. I empathize and would recommend your OP a thousand times if I could. :hug:

[Pirate Smile]

19. K & R. Thanks for spending the time to put down your thoughts.

The big take away for me is - when a lot of a certain group of people - black, gay or lesbian, etc. - is offended by something, just shut up and listen. Don't get defensive and don't dismiss their feelings. Their life experiences lead them to these views. My life experience has been different (and relatively easy - white, middle-class woman) so just shut up and listen. I very likely may learn something. :)

I think I'm generally that way on racial issues. I think I should try to be more like that on GLBQ issues. I'm supportive on all the issues (DADT, Gay marriage, etc) but I think I get too defensive of POTUS and that ends up being/sounding dismissive of the feelings of people who have been hurt and offended by various things that have happened.

Good post. Nice discussion. If we all try to be honest with ourselves and understanding of others instead of defensive, I think that would go a long way.

[Prism]

20. That opening is unhelpful in the extreme.

Prop 8 was definitely a two-way clusterfuck, with many of the bodies on the field being LGBTers of color who were used as fodder. (What's sort of interesting there is Harris-Perry herself referred to Prop 8 as "a bigoted vote by communities of color." Take that as you will.) I think some LGBTers expressed racism there, and some African-Americans expressed homophobia there. It was tragic all around. It's also tragic that for three years, some people have answered LGBT pressure on this President by characterizing the LGBT community as primarily consisting of moneyed, frivolous, racist white males. It's still happening to this day. That somehow the fight for simple civil equality can be slapped at with a simple dismissive "You're all racists."

It's very difficult to have productive discussion with that poison permeating dialogue.

That said, I respect MHP a great deal, and I think she could have made a much more constructive point if she had approached her topic through a lens of privilege. By dropping the racist bomb from the get-go, people are put not only on the defensive, but in a comfortable position of being able to say "I'm not racist!" Because most of the liberals reading her article are not. But many liberals, in my experience, are privileged - and blind to that privilege. Racism is more easily monitored by internal processes. Privilege is a trickier beast. And since reading Perry's article, I've been exploring my own enmity towards the President, running my fingers over the thoughts and impressions I have of him and trying to understand if I, as a white male, have laid something on the man I should not. Did I lay certain expectations on him based on his blackness that I otherwise would not a white politician? I don't know. I'm too young to have thought much about Clinton. Obama is the first Democratic President my adult mind and understanding has engaged. But I am thinking about it.

Do I think I'm a racist and judging Obama with its distorting effects? No. Do I think my white male privilege is causing a kind of unfairness in how I think of him? I don't know. And if MHP had attempted that conversation instead of the one she opened with and worsened with the attacks on Walsh, I think all of this would have gone in a better direction.

All that said, good luck with that conversation you're seeking. LGBTers tried it. In the end, nothing changed. I see the same things now on DU that I have always seen when it comes to LGBT issues. They say you can't legislate morality. Similarly, you can't moderate assholery.

[ruggerson]

30. +1

n/t

[xchrom]

31. +2

[vaberella]

33. I was speaking about the environment on DU. And how many AA's felt at the time. n/t

[yardwork]

37. You randomly accused LGBTQ DUers of racism. Why?

Why was it necessary to lead off your OP by attacking another minority group on DU/

[vaberella]

78. I NEVER accused those in the LGBT community of racism.

Read what you will. As I stated countless times. I was around in May/June of 2008. It was around November/December of 2008 that things got ugly here. I do not know who is specifically part of the LGBT community on DU---I only know one person, or maybe two. None of those people participated in blanket remarks. I'm talking about the general environment on DU, and stated it was on DU I felt shunned as an AA.

[Prism]

40. Imagine having those feelings last on DU for 3 years

Prop 8 was an ugly little incident all around.

Now imagine how you felt there lasting for the past three years, unrelentingly, without any reflection on the part of the people making you feel that way.

As I read these racial threads - and listen intently to what is being said - I see a lot of names complaining about privilege and race who have spent three years doing their absolute damndest to make sure LGBTers are subjected to the rhetoric, behavior, and condemnation that you say you felt after Prop 8.

Hang together, hang separately, etc.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to invoke that incident, I want to make sure you realize that that vengeful spirit of rancor and hatred wasn't limited to "at the time," but has gone on and on and on without reprieve.

[vaberella]

79. What? I don't know what you're talking about.

I think you're being ridiculously overdramatic. I'm mentioning one incident that I was around for, in order to express what I found to be racist on DU by other so called "liberals". I talked about my experience of racism as well---was my talk about the racism I experienced, vengeful as well? I don't see it that way, just as a part of my personal history.

You're turning my post into something that it is is not. And unfortunately completely choosing to misunderstand the thread. There is nothing in my post that is homophobic or even attacking the LGBT community. They are not even the real issue at hand...but the way people were generally---across the board---since DUers are not really tattooed LGBT or not.

[yardwork]

84. It's too late to defend this now. You own this.

[vaberella]

94. I own all my words---and I am not defending anything. My statement was clear.

There was nothing of my statement offensive. And I'm in no way apologizing for my statements. Most on the board who know my posts, no where I stand and so I have no explaining to do. I did elaborate on my point---although it was more regurgitate my point because you seem to have been lost. However, you and others have chosen to read what you wanted or interpreted what you wanted.

[unapatriciated]

60. +3 This is the conversation we should be having.

[OneGrassRoot]

70. I have to admit...

that I largely missed this tragic part of DU history of which you speak here. I'm sorry I didn't engage at that time.

I just want to say, for what it's worth, that even though I'm engaged in this racism discussion, I specifically try to include racism and bigotry (which, obviously, includes homophobia) in all of my comments. To me, it's all equally dehumanizing and I'm fully aware it all exists -- often in the most surprising places -- and any perceptions of racism and bigotry of any form deserve to be heard and discussed. Perception really is the key word to start with, imho, as all we each have is our own perception, based on our personal experiences.

[Blasphemer]

89. Your posts on the Prop 8 issues have been most insightful

I missed most of that debate (I wasn't on DU often for a good deal of that year and when I jumped back into the DU fray, I felt I had missed too much to get involved without making things worse) and it's an important issue to discuss and continue to discuss. I was in both New York City and San Francisco for periods that year and I heard and read things that were, quite frankly, extremely depressing. There were people behind the Pro 8 machine that were actively promoting divisions. I was disgusted by the manner in which they did so. I can understand why hard feelings emerged and it's not something that will be easily overcome. I have struggled for years with handling my family's homophobia and views on Gay rights issues. Ten years ago, conversations would often end in anger and disgust. Now, I feel there has been real growth and change and it heartens me. There is still a long way to go but the past ten years have taught me that it is possible for people to grow and change in a way that brings them together. Ten years ago, I would have never advised a gay family member to come out to the family. Today, I hope that he does.

[EffieBlack]

23. This is such an excellent, thoughtful and heartfelt post

Thank you for taking the time to share it. You are expressing the views of many of us here.

[These Eyes]

24. Thank you so much for writing this...

I can so relate to everything you've said. Like you said, blacks know more about whites than whites know about blacks because we have had to learn how two move between the two worlds. White people don't really understand black people because they don't have to live in our world. I remember when I was around five or six, there was a white girl that would call our house looking for my brother (he was a teenager). My parents grew up in the deep South and knew about lynchings. Needless to say, our mother would not let her talk to my brother. Our father had a talk with him about the dangers of being involved with a white girl. Well, the girl got bold and came to our house. Our mother ran out of the house and put her hand up signaling the girl to stop before she even reached the first step on our walkway. My parents never said anything negative about the girl. Their reaction was out of a desire to protect my brother. It was about survival. The girl had no problem coming into our neighborhood, but be clear, my brother could not have dared to go into her neighborhood looking for her.

I grew up in Pennsylvania and couldn't begin to tell you about the racism I've experienced, starting in kindergarten. I know racism when I see it. I can discern between someone who is a jackass from someone who is a racist jackass. There have been numerous posts today trying to prove that racism couldn't possibly be a factor in some of the criticism of the president. There have been assertions that by calling out racism that all white liberals are being labeled racists. That is the farthest thing from the truth. Neither is it true that no racism exists among some white liberals. We all have things about ourselves we don't want to admit to. It's a part of being human. But we have to deal with our issues, rather than denying they exist. We can start by having an honest discussion about race, without being defensive or dismissive. It's disheartening to see so many posts that are either defensive or dismissive and realize that either they don't get it, or they don't want to get it. The conversation has to start.

[wndycty]

25. Thanks Vabby. . .

:kick:

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vaberella]

29. Aye?

How are my views on racism in America logical fallacies?

[JustAnotherGen]

32. Very well said

And this is what caused me to turn away from West and Smiley:

Another example was when I saw people on different sites supporting the shit coming out of the mouth of Tavis Smiley or particularly Cornell West. Cornell West pushed a completely racist, and I mean seriously racialized comment that was so volatile and polemic I thought it would get no support. However people supported it----mainly White liberals supported it. Which boggled the hell out of me. Especially when Cornell West stated that Obama couldn't understand poverty because he was raised by a White mother and family. So basically his whiteness caused him to be disconnected. And yet...there were White Liberals in complete support.

Put a different prism on this. Imagine you are a bi or multi racial American - I am. Imagine having been called an Oreo, a Zebra, etc. etc. - because I have. I've received it not only from whites (though the kid in the third grade was more inclined to call my mother a N8gger Lover) - But faaaaaaar more from black Americans. Now put that imaginary hat on, and read West's statement again. He basically said a white woman could never be poor, could never struggle to support her kids financially, could never understand discrimination at all. Clue for Professor West - My mother, my friend Julie's mother, my friend Heather's mother - ALL women who married, had children with black men, and stayed married to them until their death have all been very clear: The minute I gave birth to a black child I became a black American. My loyalties shifted to my child/children who are going to have a harder row to hoe than I did because this country has a sick and rotten illness running through it.

President Obama's mother - a contemporary of MY mother - was a black woman the moment she gave birth to Obama.
She worried about her son's life.
She worried about the slurs and the dangers that a racist white person can inflict on black men.
She pushed her son to be a 'geek' - because he had a higher likelihood of living a long life if he was an 'egg head'.
She - I'm sure, pushed her son behind her when she confronted bigotry in public with her child - as my mother did.

I also took offense and continue to take offense to the media lumping all black voters together. I've been called out in my personal life by Conservatives for 'voting against my own interests'. Truthfully - I see their point. But those same Conservatives get twitchy when I point out how the 1994 election went down and why the Republican party could never be anything more than as the adolescents say: A Frenemy to me. Everytime John Boehner opens his mouth I KNOW he got into that office on a wave of 'blame the black women - THEY are the ones who ruined America." Go back to 1994 if you don't believe me. They took Congress based on a dog whistle - the 'welfare queen' was brought back to life.

So - I have a Speaker of the House who is of the same exact ilk as Newt Gingrinch - or a President - who looks a lot like me, and had the same experience as me . . . Though my parents were married until my dad passed away this August. And because his father was not around - he had a MUCH harder row to hoe. He gets 'the others' though we sometimes here at DU don't want to believe that he gets what it is to be one of the 'others'. He is. He always will be.

See, just because there is a black President - doesn't mean anything has changed in America. No different than the Civil Rights Act/Voting Rights Act etc. etc. Just because there is a law - doesn't mean we changed the hearts of people or that we could undo centuries of programming and bias towards white priviledge.

What I consistently see from the media is a pushing aside of this issue. They never ever want to say: Hey - at the end of the day the IndieTeaPublicans are bigots who had their whole world turned upside down when a black man was elected President. Signs held up of him as a witch doctor and calling him the 'Halfrican' are dismissed as onesie twosies. But they aren't. They are signs that rip off the band aid in America and say, "Look. This is who we ARE!".

And we see this dismissal here - right at DU - by people who have nothing but the BEST of intentions.

That's the only thing missing from the OP . . . when folks at DU get upset because we aren't talking about them - it's because for the most part, they have the best of intentions. They just don't realize that their best is not good enough.

[These Eyes]

54. Excellent post!

Thanks for sharing.

[Number23]

67. You have blown my mind, knocked my socks off and every other expression that means

WOW!!!! Phenomenal post! Would you PLEASE post this in the AA forum?? I am BEGGING YOU!! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=258

President Obama's mother - a contemporary of MY mother - was a black woman the moment she gave birth to Obama.

Oh my Lord! I've never thought about it that way but I honestly believe that you are completely right!

And we see this dismissal here - right at DU - by people who have nothing but the BEST of intentions.

That's the only thing missing from the OP . . . when folks at DU get upset because we aren't talking about them - it's because for the most part, they have the best of intentions. They just don't realize that their best is not good enough.

Good grief. As great as this OP is, and vaberella has done an amazing job, this post is the standout here. Absolutely spectacular.

[vaberella]

85. I was called all of the above.

However all my parents were bi-racial---mum, bio-dad, and daddy. So I know the feeling. It's hard, I didn't get it from the White community since I lived and was raised in a mainly Latino community, but I did get it from the Latino community---all the names and this was one of my faves---"Stop talking that way. Black people aren't supposed to sound like that." <---Sadly I can't really change the way I sound.

I agree with your last point 100%.

[lunatica]

34. Dear Vaberella

I shut up and read all the way through. Your effort to open a dialogue is worthy of respect and you get it from me.

As a 63 year old white woman I've felt much of what you are describing, back in the bad old days when kitchens, barefoot and pregnant were actually uttered and considered just. We can start this dialogue by acknowledging that we all have much more in common than we think. No matter what color, sex or language we speak we are all fundamentally human in exactly the same way as our fellow humans. No one wants to feel or deserves to be marginalized for stereotypical reasons. Your perspective also makes me want to listen because your experiences also differ from mine in important ways. And the only way I can absorb your perspective is to shut up and listen, just like Melissa says.

Thank you. You have a writing talent and I hope you use it often. I will always click on your threads from now on because you have important things to say that touch all of us.

[vaberella]

82. I appreciate your post Lunatica.

I'm not a Womanist for no reason. I do have my issues with feminism, but mainly because of it's early history but it also was the movement that I felt gave birth to Womanism which I cherish. We do have some similarities and major differences, but I think it's worthy to listen to both sides as well. Thanks for the response.

[Cigar11]

39. Excellently Articulated …

If you posted this Truth on any of the Forums (I formally frequented) you would be immediately Bashed, Labeled and eventually Banned!

Explanation: I’m a Corvette Enthusiast and thus I belonged to several Corvette related forums (Corvette Forum, Vette Barn and Digital Corvettes); in addition all these forums have PR&Cs (Political, Religion and Controversy) sections. All of them have been taken over by Right Wing Waco’s and Bann any and all Liberals and Progressives. This is exactly what the GOP is doing to Voting Rights.


Thanks again and keep up the pressure to spread the knowledge.

[Mimosa]

52. Cigar11, I've observed the same on multi-interest boards.

Welcome to D.U. :)

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

48. this is such a kick ass post. it is things i have recognized that we dont acknowledge and say out

loud, though right on. truly, listen listen listen, when those outside your experience talk, and all there is to learn, appreciate and value. i dont know what Melissa Harris-Perry said, though i get the gest of it from your post. i do know i really respect that woman and i have never heard her out of sinc, even when she is angry or on a rant.

i asked a black friend years ago, why isnt she angry. (something had happened and we were discussing it). i told her i would be angry ALL the time if i were her, living in this area, lol. she is a bigger woman than i.

i dont have a lot to add, cause i think you are so honest in your post, and for me, it doesnt get better than that. and for me, honesty is always a "heal" never a pain. i dont care how hard it may be to say or hear.

thank you

[Number23]

61. Hey! Nice to see you in GD-P!

:hi:

[seabeyond]

62. lol 23

:hi:

was purely by accident and imagine my suprise when i later couldnt find this op only to learn it was in GDP. totally foriegn world for me. lol

:hug:

[Number23]

64. Glad to see you here, even if it was by mistake! And glad to see your post to vaberella

It is really encouraging to see the number of people in this thread who read her post and took it for what it was without the need to get offended, defensive, or offensive in response.

Props to the folks who heard what she said without trying to twist it into something that it wasn't was or to trying to change the subject. There are always a few that can be counted on to let no subject of racism be discussed without trying to change it to another topic. Glad that they are getting the appropriate response, which is to say, very little.

Glad to see there are a few such folks left in GD-P. And you should hang out here more.

[seabeyond]

65. sigh... from the heart, lol. the thing, i truly understand and respect both positions

i hadnt recognized the issue in reading vaberella's OP and making my post. i have since read some concerns from other posters. i can agree with their position, too. i can respect and honor what they have to say, too. prop 8 time was a hard time for many on this board, creating a lot of pain and hurt for many. that always has me on their side. i didnt participate in the threads during that time. gays had a right to be angry. and blacks felt called out (i didnt know, but hear it in vaberella's post). and who am i?

i am not black and don't know the experience and know only, listening i understand more. i see how much i dont "get". i find the same experience when i listen to what gays have to say. i would hope others would feel the same when i talk about women issues, from my heart. and it seems to me, that i find many unwilling or incapable of just listening, to maybe, possibly, understand a bet... not even total comprehension... but just a little bet. please, lol.

cause that is the only way we can come together.

i dont believe in battling. i dont see the need or the worth in battling. nothing to gain, but pain.

so my wish.... is we can hear vaberella because she is on point in so much of her post. the post is from her heart. and to me, that is always valuable.

but being a white and kinda christian, i know when gays say the angriest things about christianity, it is my time to keep my mouth shut. cause though i dont agree with the christians that use religion as hate, and many many christians are not that way, i so empathize with the literal pain, and hate, and ugliness that my ... not religion cause i am not religious... kinda belief has caused so many, and it should not be. it should be the opposite. so, like with black issues, with gay issues i listen. and learn. and even say, i am so sorry. sometimes.

[Number23]

66. Very nice, seabeyond

is we can hear vaberella because she is on point in so much of her post. the post is from her heart. and to me, that is always valuable.

:thumbsup:
Listening and learning are more important than apologies any day. Apologies are nice, but not always needed imho. And sometimes, people think that an apology absolves them of any further responsibility. Yeah, I'd take listening and learning any day so I appreciate you saying that. :)

[LatteLibertine]

63. What concerns me is

the way things are going that some thoughtful white folks with good intentions who actually aren't racist may start withdrawing from any discussion that could possibly be racially related. They may become paranoid and/or not wish to get caught up in petty drama that may stem mostly from misunderstanding. They may see the possible frustration as not worth it. This could have a segregating effect too.

So the bulk of what we will be left with in many racial discussions are whites who want to foster division. See Limbaugh fans. They're not going to go anywhere.

[vaberella]

87. I think this is a serious problem as well.

I think many Whites---who do have good intentions and have no shred of racist thoughts. Unfortunately seem to be labeled. However, our posts aren't targeting these people. We understand that these people exist, sadly they're not vocal enough. And I think they need to be.

See when Cornel West spoke, I'm sure many many White Liberals disliked it. But shyed away from giving a retort because they didn't want to stir the waters. I mean where was Joan Walsh when Cornel West made his comments, no where to be heard. No comment about "being friends." It was mum...it was, as I stated the Black community that spoke out.

I don't think these topics should be refrained from if you are White. I don't think any topic should be shyed away from if you have something to say. As you stated the Whites who want division speak out, we need the ones who want unity to speak out. They were many vocal during the Civil Rights movement, we need them to rise up again. It never ended after that period, it continued. Even if you do get some minority Backlash---if you are certain the labels don't apply to you, don't pay attention because you know who they do apply too. You know there are people that do hold the title.

I think this is where a lot of White Liberals need to take up the mantle. I mean I have a French friend, he's White--who is very Liberal with a very racist grandmother. And he has no problems speaking out against it. And I've managed to pull him to a lot of those protests and he actively participates. And he knows when I speak on it, and may seem I'm corralling him in with the other racists---that I'm not because I'm still sitting next to him and hanging with him. Obviously I don't see him in that light. But he knows there are people out there.

They shouldn't be scared, paranoid or worried. We'd like them having our back. They just need to be clear, plus a little understanding on where we're coming from would be helpful.

[LatteLibertine]

98. I get your point

I also recognize racism is very real and still with us. The white supremacist mindset has infected our culture in one way or the other for a very long time. Ending slavery and passing the CRA in 1964 didn't make it magically melt away, nor did electing our first Black President. Heck, I've seen black folks hate on other black people for being "too dark". No one has really escaped it.

It's true that we need to do honest hard work on racial issues and race relations in this nation.

My concern is that GOP are going to be pushing a new and improved Southern strategy to remarkable levels we've never seen before this election cycle. So race relations in general may suffer because of it. We are going to have the GOP about us doing everything they can, both fair and foul, to cause division.

They know they don't stand a chance in 2012 unless they amass a huge amount of the white vote.

BTW I adore Dr. West :)

[dsc]

68. Frankly it is quite hard not to see this as, in part, an attack on gay posters

It is bad enough that you brought up the Prop 8 period for no reason I can discern, but you lay the blame entirely at gay posters' feet. That seems exceptionally unfair and mean spirited in what otherwise would have been a great thread about priviledge. I think gay posters deserve better.

[yardwork]

72. The question was asked. We were told to pound sand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=437x4620

[dsc]

73. sadly I know that

I feel badly for you on this as I think you were jerked around.

[yardwork]

81. Oh, don't worry about me! I was not personally singled out.

I don't let things on an anonymous bulletin board get to me. I am worried that bullying and insults appear to be characterizing Obama's reelection strategy, and that won't work.

[vaberella]

80. How can you not understand it?

I felt it was during that time on DU that AA's were made to feel unwelcome on the board. Those of us in the AA community talked about it in the AA section and personally to each other. Amongst our circle this board made us feel truly unwelcome.

I don't see how it's an attack on those in the LGBT community. I never stated those in the LGBT community made us feel this way. This was generally by liberals, I found it, we as Blacks were made to be the scape goat as though we can have no real understanding of the LGBT community as though some of us don't have family, friends, and are part of the community itself. It was made to be a referendum on Black people here and I found that to be veiled racism.

But fine...you take it as an attack. There's no way I can change your mind. Nor do I have anything else to say. I figure I clearly expressed my point because it hasn't been the first time I felt slighted on this board as an AA, but it was a time I remember well because I was too afraid to even post.

[Vanje]

71. Well then. We're all definitely agreed!

except for the gays.

[Blasphemer]

88. Good post....

I think it is good idea to discuss racism and other -isms that exist in the lefty community. I avoided engaging in the recent debate on that particular point because it originated with Harris-Perry's "unfitting" application of racism. It's tricky to navigate discussions on these issues when either real or imagined defensiveness and patronization take hold. There can be no doubt that there is racism, homophobia, classism (this one is often ignored and has a huge impact on discussions of economic policy) and sexism within our ranks. They are part of our cultural framework. I often avoid getting involved in threads on DU when there is sexism in the tone of many of the responses. It's not because I have an issue with debate but because the discussion often quickly devolves and, therefore, is not constructive. In communication, there can be parts of ourselves that are hidden to us and viewable by others so another person may see things in ourselves that we don't see. By the same token, we can see others in a reflective lens so we are so not seeing what is there but what our own experiences tell us is there. So, it's not surprising that these kinds of debates are often not constructive. It's not easy to tell which party is doing insufficient self-examination.

I am also an immigrant and I feel that I have to straddle multiple worlds at all times. Sometimes, it's hard to be considered "African-American" when part of my cultural identity has particular distinctions (despite similarities) based on different cultural traditions and expectations. Sometimes, I have more in common with people of diverse cultural backgrounds that are all the children of immigrants than I have with those who share my skin color. Sometimes the opposite is true. In addition to subcultures based on race, immigration, gender and sexual orientation, there can be those based on mental or physical challenges, shared traumatic experiences, addiction, etc. The list goes on and on. When you get right down to it, it's almost impossible to find two people who belong to the exact same subsets of potential societal groupings. It's definitely true that you cannot fully understand what the struggles of a particular group of people (or hell, a particular person) because of the inability to truly walk in their shoes. Of course, that does not negate having opinions on issues related to that group's struggles. There are experiences that while not the same, color opinions and perspectives in a way that makes a person's opinions just as relevant or perhaps even more relevant. Going back to this country's beginnings, indentured servitude and the importation of slaves, seeds of division were sowed amongst those who were bonded by their economic condition. White indentured servants, black indentured servants and black slaves had power when united against economic tyranny. Racism and slavery as a tool of racism was used to keep them apart. We are still dealing with similar themes. We are being kept apart. The truly economically privileged are the real minority and I think collective understanding and acceptance of THAT reality would go a long way towards healing other divisions.

[Hippo_Tron]

90. Can I ask you a very sincere question that may or may not further this discussion

Why do you think it is that black people vote 9-1 Democratic in national elections, more than any other demographic in the country?

As an aspiring social scientist this question really confounds me. Most of the time when I ask any black person this question, the answer is not the same as the conventional theories (most of which come from research done by white people). All I've gathered (albeit anecdotal) points to the contrary to this "unthinking horde" mentality of the black community that Fox News would have you believe.

[Pab Sungenis]

91. Thee issues: the New Deal, the War on Poverty, and Civil Rights.

An inordinate percentage of the black population was (and still is, although it's improving gradually) poor. The New Deal improved living conditions in poor areas, and the War on Poverty had an impact, too.

For Civil Rights, Hubert Humphrey started the ball rolling in 1948 when he gave his speech to the Convention and the South walked out. JFK and LBJ built on that with civil rights legislation. Then Nixon's "Southern Strategy" and the loss of Southern Democrats to Wallace and thence to the Republicans cemented it.

For the first 75 years of being able to vote (not discounting Jim Crow efforts to keep voting down) Blacks were pretty solidly Republican. The Republicans were the party that set them free, got them the vote, and were the only ones speaking up at all for blacks. That started slipping in the 1930's and was turned on its head by 1964.

But if we keep taking blacks for granted, and Republicans get their shit together, those numbers could turn on their head again.

[Hippo_Tron]

93. Yea, those are the conventional theories I was talking about

[vaberella]

96. To be honest from what I can see...it's what Black people see as rejection from the Republican party

If the Republican party was not so overtly racist then it wouldn't be a problem. For instance, you see how many of us identify with Ms. Melissa Harris-Perry's perspective of the veiled racism (a slight misnomer I find)within Liberal groups---I think most Blacks do notice the racism. Many of us internalize and don't talk about the racism we feel from fellow Liberals or the support we do feel lacking from the Democratic party. However, we also recognize that we get far more support from Democrats than from Republicans---overtly anyway. They seem to choose the lesser of the two evils. I think for many Blacks generally speaking---they don't trust the government. They don't trust either party---in essence they find them both to be lying. But they choose the one that share the some similar key issues--we're looking at Black American (first generation Afro-Caribbean's too--generally).

I'll give you an example. My mother is Haitian. You will find that the majority of Afro-Caribbean people will vote Republican. My mother has said in the past that they're both the same, she sees at times no difference between the two parties but she prefers the government not getting involved. Many Afro-Caribbeans and African peoples come from nations where to trust the government is impossible--this is with reason. Another thing is, they are strong believers in picking yourself by your bootstraps. They strongly condemn welfare or medicaid. They always push hard work and endurance will get you everywhere. So they appreciate the Republican views. The problem however, or as my mother said---only after Katrina (this is when she started supporting Democrats) was Republicans hate Black people. She said, "Bush wants us dead." <----At which point she flipped her switch.

She felt rejected. She's a Reagan devotee, she utterly supported the first Bush, she liked Clinton ---but he was no Reagan for my mother. So for over 20 years she supported Republicans. I remember speaking to a woman in Harlem who was knocking at my door getting signatures for her run as a Republican candidate. She was actually interesting to speak too. She said, she doesn't necessarily support anything of the Republican party, but there is such a "good ol'boy" mentality in the Democratic bid for election that it's almost impossible to be a woman representing Harlem. She ended up having to join the Republican base, because they would give her the funding she needed. This just points to the level of sexism. But it also shows that Black people do have varying degrees and reasons for supporting different party's.

By in large, some of the folks I've listened don't like Dems or Repubs. They just choose Dem by default. Many weren't even rooting for Obama around my way too much. It was hard getting Obama to be recognized, he was seen as a pimp---like a super slick talker like any other politician. Not a real candidate---until late in the primaries---Clinton was getting all the support.

There's massive disenchantment and dislike of the government (overall). But Blacks also realize that if they let their vote go to waste it is bad for several reasons. Many remember how hard it was to get the vote. They remember how they're ancestors fought and died for the vote. This is why it pisses me off when I hear many Liberals---I'll assume in many cases White--say they won't vote. I waited 7 years to get my citizenship, 7 years, $900 dollars I went through backlog and I was in the US since I was 18 months old. I fought hard for it, I don't take it for granted. Blacks will vote no matter what, from what I've seen. In Harlem anyway. You'll see lines around the block, people are on a walker or cane and they will walk a 5 miles if they have to to vote. That's the historical aspect. The more social aspect is that they know that their vote does matter in light of things. They realize that they need to vote in order to protect some of their interests.

At times, Democrats are the ones who match that. They believe in social programs, because many have been on or know people who need social programs. Republicans reject that. They half-heartedly believe that maybe a Democrat will do something that benefits them. Similar to the social movements originally pushed for Blacks by Republicans in the our early history. Democrats are pushing these programs that are vital in the community. Not to mention again blatant racism and rejection of Blacks by the Republican---they go to who seems to accept them--at least overtly.

However, if we remove race----and let's pretend America was a wonderful Utopia---most Blacks I think would vote Repub. But race is the underlying factor which is also connected to economics, social status, mobility and the such. Blacks go with the better of two deals they're not happy. This isn't to say there aren't many Blacks who sincerely believe in the Democrat ideology. I just think Blacks generally are wary of government and all things governmental.

They have dealt with voter suppression, rezoning to miscalculate their votes, they were seen as the main cause of the economic recession by Repubs, and so on. If they didn't have to...for various reasons, they probably wouldn't do it and take as a luxury. This is coming from my own personal history and definitely what I saw around my neighborhood.

HTH

[OneGrassRoot]

95. Interesting article pertaining to this subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x629362

[vaberella]

97. Thanks. See post #87 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=782616&mesg_id=784850

[Ignis]

100. "White people just don't know anything about Black people."

Wow. Replace "White" with "straight" and "Black" with "gay," and this post would have been locked in a heartbeat.

It's at least nice to have the DU Rules clarified in practice, if not codified in writing.