Obama passes PROGRESSIVE legislation YAWN, he introduces a jobs bill that will not pass. . .

[wndycty]

. . .and progressives cheer.

This has been bugging the FUCK OUT OF ME since Obama introduced his jobs bill and everyone is celebrating the fact that he is taking the fight to Republicans. Don't get me wrong I will applaud and cheer whenever POTUS takes it to the Republicans, however I have a huge problem that he does not get the credit he deserves from progressives for health care, repeal DADT, saving Detroit, Wall Street reform, etc., real accomplishments no matter how some progressives try to dismiss/diminish them. Why do we celebrate him engaging in a fight that might not result in any legislation, while ignoring or diminishing the progressive legislation he has passed.

Again, I like the fight, but at the end of the day its about the accomplishments and President Obama has accomplished a lot.

[MADem]

1. Some people are only happy when they are AGAINST something or someone.

Some people enjoy the half empty glass.

It's a curious condition, the inability to take joy in the journey or the progress, and the insistence that fault be found in everything undertaken.

People with that kind of worldview are to be pitied. I can't imagine going through life as a Debbie Downer all of the time. It's just tiresome!

[ElboRuum]

6. Some romanticize the fight, the struggle.

In the final analysis, it is the result that matters. Some forget this.

[MADem]

9. That's very true as well. The drama and excitement, it's like a

role in a play!

[ClassWarrior]

14. So you don't think that failing to fight forcefully for Dem values, regardless of the outcome...

...allows Radical RW values to dominate?

NGU.

[ElboRuum]

23. Actually, I didn't say that at all.

If the fight is the only thing that matters, without the ability to muster our collective will behind our incremental successes, this does the Radical RW (TM) more of their work for them that you realize. To romanticize the struggle and not be proud of the incremental results achieved does nothing to gather people to the movement and become productive within it. It merely withers the resolve of those who already weary of the struggle itself. It's like fighting a war where you push the line forward, but fail to defend the ground gained. Eventually the troops desert because they are tired of putting themselves in the line of fire for the people who seem to be fighting the war for its own sake, maybe they find some nobility in the struggle, or maybe they wouldn't know what to do with themselves if the war eventually ended.

The fact is that those who can not or will not accept and praise our gains represent more of a threat to liberalism than any right-wing gambit. Those who will deride any incremental forward progress as not enough for them represent a much greater obstacle. Without a winning attitude, we will not draw anyone to our side. Without using our successes as morale footholds, we can't use them as springboards to others. A movement is just that. MOVEMENT. Whether a crawl or a sprint, we can't wait for messianic deliverance from the right-wing verbal diarrhea and toxic policy that some here think is required. We must simply march. Consider our successes as the sustenance on that march which helps us to keep marching.

This... this constant demoralization and half-empty glass philosophy coming from some helps out the right-wing more than anything they can do themselves. You want to fight forcefully for Dem values? FINE. EXCELLENT. But when you win one, however small or insignificant as it may seem to you, you'd better not waste the opportunity to defend that ground as ground well gained and worth fighting for. If you do not, you cede it back to your enemies who WILL try to paint your victory as a loss, a tactic they've got down to a dismal science.

There is no fearless leader waiting in the wings to shower the U.S. with a liberal "Morning in America". There is no dimensional portal to a liberal paradise. There is, however, a LONG WALK AHEAD. And you suggest we shouldn't partake of rations along the way?

[ClassWarrior]

24. "Those who can not or will not accept and praise our gains represent more of a threat to..."

"...liberalism than any right-wing gambit."

How true. I look forward to you accepting and praising this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777449&mesg_id=777449

:shrug:

I never said, by the way, that "the fight is the only thing that matters." So the next time you write a long, windy response to object to someone mischaracterizing your words, it'd help not to mischaracterize that person's words.

NGU.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

29. You said it better than I ever could, and thanks for that!!!!

Loved this:

The fact is that those who can not or will not accept and praise our gains represent more of a threat to liberalism than any right-wing gambit. Those who will deride any incremental forward progress as not enough for them represent a much greater obstacle. Without a winning attitude, we will not draw anyone to our side. Without using our successes as morale footholds, we can't use them as springboards to others. A movement is just that. MOVEMENT. Whether a crawl or a sprint, we can't wait for messianic deliverance from the right-wing verbal diarrhea and toxic policy that some here think is required. We must simply march. Consider our successes as the sustenance on that march which helps us to keep marching.


I find the constant demoralization incredibly tiresome. I sometimes wonder if that shit isn't coming from the right wing....the spelling is too good, usually, though.


Your essay deserves its own thread, and gets an A+ at my School of Hard Knocks!!!!!

[Beartracks]

59. +1000 -- And make this an OP, n/t

:patriot:

==============================

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

54. How 'bout: Where's the Democratic Party. Notice that we're seeing the same

Blue Dog/Corporatists running scared and not standing by the president.

It then pisses me off when nothing gets done and the blame goes to the president and not the Republicans who obstruct OR the Democrats who aid and abet them...

[vaberella]

11. So true. n/t

[ClassWarrior]

16. "It's a curious condition, the inability to take joy in the journey or the progress."

I agree. Look at all the nasty potshots people have taken at this thread celebrating the joy of the journey and the progress:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=777449&mesg_id=777449

NGU.

[chill_wind]

27. That thread's a trip. And so is this one.

Loyalists positively seething that progressives are encouraged about something and have a vague sense of having been at least heard.

Jobs and the economy. It's only the number one driving issue among Americans for 2012, but "you progressives who Never Really Loved Him are getting all hopeful about the Wrong Damn Thing! You're just Haters!"

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Triple damned now if you do, I guess.

:rofl:

[MADem]

30. I have to concur with your somewhat blunt assessment! nt

[_ed_]

32. Some people support personalities over principle

It's a curious condition, the inability to see that policy is more important than a political personality, and the insistence that those who criticize their political leaders bring fault on everything undertaken.

People with that worldview are to be pitied. I can't imagine going through life changing my core beliefs every time a politician gives a new speech. It's just tiresome!

[MADem]

33. And some people imagine that personalities have Magical Powers.

It's a tough thing, being president--you have to go from being a base-motivating partisan to being a leader of all the people. That's not to say your leadership isn't colored by your POV, but shit doesn't always happen as quick as the activists on your team might like.

So long as the trajectory is trending in the right direction, I can be patient and hopeful. I have lived long enough to see that Rome wasn't built in a day. I also learned as a toddler that "I want it NOW" doesn't bring the desired results, no matter how loudly or often I shouted it.

[_ed_]

34. Straw men

"I want it NOW" and the like. Fallacious arguments are certainly easier than dealing with reality as it is.

[MADem]

35. What's "straw" about it? I think you don't quite get the meaning of the term.

There was nothing "straw" about my telling you about a lesson that I learned early on that has stood me in good stead for well over a half century. I exist, I am not an imagined construct. Go call your own life a straw man if you'd like, but hands off mine!

[_ed_]

36. Are you serious?

You're sitting in front of a machine that has search engines and internet access, but here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I really can't stop laughing at your response.

[MADem]

63. I can't stop laughing at the fact that you can't read the material at the link you provide.

You need to first, understand terms, and while you're at it, grow up.

You've some work to do.

[Union Scribe]

41. Just like the OP, then,

who doesn't like it when we applaud Obama on letting the fuckers have it.

[trueblue2007]

69. The original poster should really get rid of the YAWN. Want a GOP president? Knock off the crap

[nevergiveup]

2. The president has done a good job but

the country was in such dire straights when he took over a "good job" doesn't really cut it in the eyes of the public. Don't get me wrong as I am not sure any one person could have really gotten a grip in this political environment. His accomplishments are substantial especially considering the fact he has from the get-go been dealing with a totally dysfunctional U.S. Senate. To make matters worse he is now also up against a Tea Party House of Representatives. It is time for Obama to go all Harry Truman and I think we are beginning to see just that. His jobs bill laid the groundwork for his re-election. For the sake of the country I hope he succeeds.

[lunatica]

3. Whoever wrote that about the Progressives is full of crap

I'm a Progressive and I don't think I should get credit for the jobs bill. That article is just another attempt to turn us against each other.

We need to be vigilant. There is a political/media/corporate machine out there and it's running full tilt.

[DCBob]

4. Some would rather maintain progressive "integrity" than follow a path of incremental progress.

while noble it results in nothing substantial.

[wndycty]

5. And Obama has made substantial progress

:kick:

[ElboRuum]

7. Curious...

I fail to see how progressive integrity... which I take to mean loyalty to progressive ideals, correct me if I am wrong there... is a concept which must be naturally disdainful of incremental progress. In the end, all progress is incremental, simply a way station on the way to the next thing, so... I'm entirely sure I don't understand the mindset.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

8. i don't think that most mean it to be disdainfull of incremental progress

more that there is a section(here on DU atleast)that thinks if they can't get everything as a whole(at once) then it shouldn't be done, since compromising and getting whats possible at the time is diluting their integrity.

I don't really understand the above mindset since as you said, all progress is incremental.

[ElboRuum]

15. Yes, that's it.

That mindset, the 'all or nothing', 'go all in' mindset. That's the one that I don't get.

[zalinda]

21. It has NEVER been ALL or NOTHING

It's his DIRECTION, oh, and the people he surrounds himself with. When a repub KNOWS that they can walk all over you, and GLOATS about it in the national press, you have a weak President. What he has put through is slightly watered down repub bills.

I am feeling like an abused spouse. I've just been beaten, and now he's bringing around flowers and telling me how good it will be from now on, if I just give him another chance. He's great a campaign promises, not so much on following through.

zalinda

[ElboRuum]

25. A bit overdramatized, don't you think?

He's weak because Republicans these days are by nature bullies? Moreover, you know that this is MSM spin, right? In a hostile environment (status quo Senate and TP House), did you think any real liberal reforms can be made?

You're feeling like an abused spouse? Why, because Obama disappointed you? You must be kidding. Come down off of your hyperbole.

[zalinda]

31. Do you even have a clue?

People's lives are at stake. My son hasn't been able to find a job for over 2 years. We are trying to live on my Disability. Every month we juggle what bills we pay, and what are we going to sell next to meet the next month's bills.

Obama has done nothing that will affect over 50% of the population in this country. He has bargained away any little hope of a step in the correct direction. I'm fucking tired of the Obama supporters claiming that we want "all or nothing". You can't condone what Obama has done, so you attack any one who has a legitimate complaint about Obama.

Have you been paying attention at all? Or are you too, living in the DC bubble?

*Dismantling the last vestiges of the New Deal?

*Transferring MORE wealth to the Top 1%

*Widening the Wealth Disparity

*Cement in (insane) Republican Economic Policies

*Increase Military Spending and Expand the WARS?

*Protect the War Criminals, War Profiteers

*Protect the criminal Wall Street Bankers

*Privatize every-fucking-thing

*Shovel MORE Public Money into Private Pockets

*Imprison MORE Americans

*Criminalize Poverty

*Smash the last few remaining Unions

*Populate the Democratic Party with MORE "Centrists"
(1/2 Republican)

*Bury the faint memories of what a "Democratic Party" used to be

*Mandate every American into the clutches of completely parasitic Health Insurance/Wall Street Corporations
(They manufacture NOTHING, Provide NO service, Create NO value added Wealth)

*Make the Supreme Court more conservative, more Anti-Worker/Anti-Consumer, and more protective of The Unitary Executive

*Extend the WORST Bush policies


I certainly didn't expect him to be superman, but it would have been nice if we could have made even baby steps to left on things that REALLY concern 50% of the population.

And, yeah, I get fucking beat up every day. I never know if I'm going to have a roof over my head or not. I'd go out and try to pick up returnable bottles or cans, but there are 5 people already doing it in my neighborhood. My 12 year old car needs to have the steering repaired, so I drive it as little as possible, or I'd try different areas to collect bottles and cans. But, I expect that those areas are already pretty well covered. I can't collect metal, since I don't have a truck, and my car won't hold much of anything.

So, Mr. ElboRuum, what do you do? How would you feel? When you have worked all your life, and have seen it pissed away by a Democratic President? How would you feel, if your doctor just told you, sorry, can't take Medicaid any more, because the payments are too small? Do you know how it feels to stand in line at a food bank, while your Democratic President gave money to Wall Street? Do you know how it feels to have to give away your pets because you can no longer afford to take care of them? Do you know how it feels to be worried if you will be warm this winter, because your Democratic President has cut HEAP?

I have no problems with people thriving, but I do have a problem with those same people telling me how I should feel lucky that I have a President with a label of Democrat.

zalinda

[MadMaddie]

58. Zalinda I understand your stress and angst

but I have to disagree with you on something and it is basically we have three branches of government.

Due to people sitting out in 2010 (whatever they want to call it) the Democratic party lost the House. As a result the last year in a half we have not seen any jobs bill from the Republicans. President Obama could have produced 20 jobs bills and the Republicans would have stalled the bills.

One other point please looks at the massive profits corporations have made over the last couple of years....they are sitting on piles of cash and yet they are not hiring Americans. They are still outsourcing....


The reality is if McCain/Paline were in office what we are seeing today would be magnified by hundreds. Any regulation would be gutted, the EPA, Dept of Education, FEMA would be gone...as if they never existed. The Supreme Court would be the Corporate Supreme Court of America.....any rights for individuals would be eliminated.....

You say everything was pissed away by a Dem President....did you mean Clinton? Clinton fucked us over more than President Obama ever could....the trade agreements and the gutting of our manufacturing base got us to where we are today.

So hate him if you must but he is the only thing standing in the way of 7 insane possibilities that might be President. We have to hold on to what we have and win in 2012. In 2016 we find that true Progressive and win again......

I wish the best for you and your family.

[zalinda]

64. I hold no love for Clinton

but at least he seemed like he cared. Obama is as cold as ice. I see absolutely no warmth at all from him. He might as well be a robot.

With Clinton we may have been fucked, but at least there was foreplay. With Obama it feels like he just wants to bend you over and get it over with.

I'm tired of being fucked. And, what could have happened with McCain, is immaterial. Rahm made sure there would be no anti-war dems in office when Obama took over, which pretty much means that the Democratic Party that I grew up with and loved is gone. We just haven't given it it's funeral yet.

zalinda

[bornskeptic]

46. So you believed Boner when he said he got 98% of what he wanted?

It may come as a shock to you, but Republicans lie. Boner was only trying to avoid being lynched by the tea party. He didn't get shit. All the cuts were in discretionary programs,for which funds have to be appropriated every year, so the Republicans had the power to block that funding anyway. They got no cuts to mandatory programs, which would ave to go through the Senate and the President.Most of the cuts would only occur in future years, and there is no guarantee that future Congresses would vote to implement them. President Obama got what was important, extending the debt ceiling through the election, so now he is free to take the demand for his jobs program directly to the public without worrying about further Republican blackmail.

[ClassWarrior]

22. "It results in nothing substantial??" So the President's uptick since the jobs speech is nothing?

Oh Chairman...



NGU.

[MadMaddie]

56. I think you have nailed it in one sentence.

It's all or nothing! DADT is a perfect example. If it had not been repealed properly by the swish of a pen it could have been implemented again....I remember the nastiness when that point was brought up.....

[wndycty]

57. DADT is a perfect example of the point I was trying to make

Obama does not get the credit for the repeal, which is significant, however he is getting praise for picking a fight with Republicans through the jobs bill. Let me state I praise him for the fight with Republicans, but I am more concerned about what he accomplishes and what him to get credit for that.

[ClassWarrior]

10. Yeah, Dems!! Be grateful he passes the occasional good bill, while the Radical RW...

...continues to push the underlying discourse further and further to the right.

:eyes:

NGU.

[vaberella]

12. "Occasional"...By saying that...you obviously have no clue. Your post is a FAIL.

There are hundreds of bills and executive orders Obama has passed and no one has heard of, ditto for his appointees.

[ClassWarrior]

17. I'm sure the President would be proud of you for responding with nothing but a personal attack.

NGU.

[vaberella]

37. Oh, I didn't realize I spoke for the President....for the President to be proud of shit.

Pathetic...I speak for no man nor President, I speak for myself. But it would seem to you that I must speak for someone.

[woo me with science]

13. It's the Chamber of Commerce plan anyway.

How this is being spun as a win for progressives is frankly bizarre.

[Dragonfli]

18. They never even respond to that, it's almost like if they don't look it wont be true

http://www.uschamber.com/sites/default/files/110905_jobs_letter.pdf

[Fearless]

19. Some people think the president should fight for what's right even if its not easy.

The fact is he could if he wanted pocket veto every bill that came to his desk until he got the bill he wanted. He could. Every bill would fail. There will be no 2/3 agreement in Congress to override a veto. He could stop the Republican agenda cold right now. He could. He won't.

[CakeGrrl]

20. K/R

[kentuck]

28. Good question.

However, I think it is a fallacy to say or think that anything passed is better than nothing passed. Sometimes nothing passed may be better than something passed. Simply passing something that the Republicans will agree to is not necessarily commendable.

For example, the President might sign or extend taxcuts all day long, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are good for the Party or the country. Sometimes nothing can be better than something.

Also, how much credit should the President get? The unemployment rate is still 9.1% officially. Should he be criticized at all for cutting FICA taxes or for wanting to pass more trade agreements? Perhaps he deserves more credit than many progressives are willing to give him? Does the good outweigh the bad?

Should he have spent 3 years trying to work with people that he knew had no intention of working with him? Did that have any impact on the last election at all?

Regardless, we are where we are and the President has taken a different strategy in the last couple of weeks, for whatever reasons, and most progressives agree with him, even though they know there is slight chance of any jobs bill being passed. But it doesn't matter what his strategy might be, the Republicans have no plans on working with the President on anything. So why not go on the offensive and tell the voters exactly what the Repubs are doing? Why lose the political advantage as well as the issue?

Personally, I think the progressives want to support this President but they simply cannot accept what they perceive to be passivity. The President's supporters call it patience. The times call for giant steps, not baby steps. A little progress here and there is not acceptable to save us from the demons at work. The status quo cannot win the President re-election. Progressives want to win the next election. They will not march over the cliff holding hands with the conservatives.

However, progressives will support this President and they will give credit where credit is due. Also, they know there are no do-overs. We can only go forward from where we are today. This radical bunch of tea-bagging Republicans cannot be worked with, they must be challenged and defeated. If we get nothing done until the next election is over with, then so be it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

38. I'm starting to think that ...

democrats/progressives/liberals are becoming infected with "conservatis" ... that affliction that values the appearance of toughness over actually getting something (though maybe imperfect, but a damned sight better than where we were) done.

[ClassWarrior]

39. Toughness gets plenty done. Apparently you've never dealt with bullies.

When you stand up to them, they back down, and lots of others step up to get your back.

NGU.

[1StrongBlackMan]

70. I guess ...

If you consider polarizing one's political opponent, i.e., getting nothing done, counts as getting something done.

We are talking about politics, not backing down the school-yard/office bully, where it is a victory if you never have to deal with the bully again.

[zipplewrath]

40. It has been explained for 2 years here.

If you don't understand by now, I'm not sure you ever will.

Start with the implicit assumptions/assertions in your statement and move on from there.

[Union Scribe]

42. And what do you sound like with your "bill that will not pass" shit?

You may "have a huge problem," but it isn't progressives. It sounds like you've staked some emotional claim on Obama and don't like him doing something that is popular with those you've spent so much time opposing.

[wndycty]

43. Read the OP again, then breath they try to post an educated response

You say "It sounds like you've staked some emotional claim on Obama and don't like him doing something that is popular with those you've spent so much time opposing."

Now read the OP which I have cut & pasted below and added bold to show you that you wrong saying that I "don't like him doing something that is popular with. . ."

This has been bugging the FUCK OUT OF ME since Obama introduced his jobs bill and everyone is celebrating the fact that he is taking the fight to Republicans. Don't get me wrong I will applaud and cheer whenever POTUS takes it to the Republicans, however I have a huge problem that he does not get the credit he deserves from progressives for health care, repeal DADT, saving Detroit, Wall Street reform, etc., real accomplishments no matter how some progressives try to dismiss/diminish them. Why do we celebrate him engaging in a fight that might not result in any legislation, while ignoring or diminishing the progressive legislation he has passed.

Again, I like the fight, but at the end of the day its about the accomplishments and President Obama has accomplished a lot.

I am happy he is fighting but I am happier with what he has accomplished.

[Union Scribe]

45. And? I'm not talking about you cheering Obama on.

We know you do that. I'm talking about your hostility towards progressives who don't like some things he does and now like some other things. The problem with a lot of you is that you make it sound so personal, like if you didn't support everything Obama's done you're barred from the clubhouse and go away. That's the attitude coming from your OP.

[wndycty]

47. Well what am doing is pointing out folks who NEVER give him credit for actual accomplishments. . .

...but cheer him picking a fight that will not lead to legislation are full of shit. I definitely will own up to that. LOL

[Union Scribe]

48. Let's see how the bill goes before writing it off.

This fight is right. I don't know why you begrudge people support for it and insist it won't work before we even try. Isn't that what the "haters" supposedly do?

[wndycty]

49. Get it right I support the fucking bill and the fight myself, I BEGRUDGE the POMPOUS so called. .

progressives who have never given POTUS credit for his accomplishments and act like he has not done anything.

[Union Scribe]

52. If your idea of support is insisting it won't pass and moaning about other supporters

then I don't know what else to tell you.

[ClassWarrior]

61. No, what you're trying to do is claim that no progressives ever give him credit.

As your posts above clearly show. And that's patently ludicrous.

NGU.

[polichick]

44. Of course, what upsets progressives is that he compromises BEFORE he fights...

...dragging every legislative "victory" to the right before the game begins.

Now he's fighting BEFORE compromising - much smarter.

[vaberella]

50. Really? Then you were't around for the Public Option fight.

Because he fought for it, but when it wouldn't pass he compromised. However, liberals still call him a caver, weak and what not.

[polichick]

51. Stop repeating this lie - he traded away the public option in closed door dealing...

...very early on in the game.

[vaberella]

55. No, it's so not a lie.

Landrieu, Lincoln, Lieberman, not counting Snowe and Collins publicly said they would not vote for HCR if the PO is in the list. So I don't know what bullshit you claim he traded. Because that is the lie. He never traded, it had no chance to pass. EVERYONE knows this. What you're spreading is the lie. HCR passed with the 60 vote mark...but if these 5 people didn't vote for it, it had no chance. And those 5 people said they would not vote for it with the Public Option. This is extremely well documented. Please do the math, mathematically it would be impossible to pass without at least Snowe and Collins (and they're Repubs)----even if the other voted for it. And those other three were adamant against it---particularly Lieberman.

[jaysunb]

62. Why bother w/ facts ?

They're sooo unwelcome in certain places. :evilfrown:

[polichick]

65. Yes, facts are completely irrelevant to apologists.

[vaberella]

66. What apologist? Can you prove what I'm saying is false?

While I can prove what you're saying is false and I can provide statements from each of the people I mentioned where they clearly stated if the PO is on the table, they're not near that table. You have no supporting evidence but conspiracy theory nonsense. I have factual statements from the clowns listed---which would suggest the PO had no votes. It had votes in the House and passed the House. The Senate was the problem, why is that so hard to admit---but you call me an apologist. If you had stated there was a pharmaceutical deal, I would say yes there was. However a PO deal, not a chance---since the PO was not an option for important Dem votes in the Senate. Believe in your lies, because that's obviously what you want to do.

[polichick]

68. Posting proof has never stopped apologists...

It's been posted here many times: Tom Daschle let the cat out of the bag and then tried to walk it back after the WH heard he leaked about what happened to the public option.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2010/10/05/171689/daschle-interview/

[Dawgs]

67. Wrong. Starting with the current bill and including the PO was starting in the middle.

If the Democrats would have started much farther to the left, then the compromise would have been the public option. Instead, they started with a Republican plan with the Public Option added, and we ended up with just the Republican plan.

Starting out much farther to the left, with something closer to single payer, we would have ended up with AT LEAST the public option with the current bill.

Your argument actually makes the original point that polichick was making.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

53. SAY IT!!!!!! Kick and Recommended!!

:kick::kick:

[Mr Deltoid]

60. A lot of disconnect as to the nature of Obama's dllemma

Damned if you do, damned if ya dont.