Krugman: Pass the Bill

[johan helge]

Krugman (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=1):

A message to progressives: By all means, hang Senator Joe Lieberman in effigy. Declare that you’re disappointed in and/or disgusted with President Obama. Demand a change in Senate rules that, combined with the Republican strategy of total obstructionism, are in the process of making America ungovernable.

But meanwhile, pass the health care bill.

(..)

The result would be a huge increase in the availability and affordability of health insurance, with more than 30 million Americans gaining coverage, and premiums for lower-income and lower-middle-income Americans falling dramatically.

(..)

Bear in mind also the lessons of history: social insurance programs tend to start out highly imperfect and incomplete, but get better and more comprehensive as the years go by. Thus Social Security originally had huge gaps in coverage — and a majority of African-Americans, in particular, fell through those gaps. But it was improved over time, and it’s now the bedrock of retirement stability for the vast majority of Americans.

(..)

Whereas flawed social insurance programs have tended to get better over time, the story of health reform suggests that rejecting an imperfect deal in the hope of eventually getting something better is a recipe for getting nothing at all. Not to put too fine a point on it, America would be in much better shape today if Democrats had cut a deal on health care with Richard Nixon, or if Bill Clinton had cut a deal with moderate Republicans back when they still existed.

[babylonsister]

1. Yes. Warts and all, do it. nt

[Clio the Leo]

2. Krugman has Bill Will....

... (I'm stealin' it from you Writer! Deal with it! lol)

[Hello_Kitty]

3. Ben Nelson is trying to strip the Medicaid expansion out.

If he succeeds, will Krugman and others still support it?

[Pirate Smile]

4. Did you read the column?

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Yes I did.

Krugman doesn't mention the Medicaid expansion at all, so I don't see what your point is.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

7. DAMN THESE PEOPLE.

DINOS ALL

[cry baby]

5. knr

[still_one]

6. This is not just imperfect this is a disaster. It won't take affect until 2014. It has no cap on

rates insurance companies can charge. This bill has so many holes in it that it is a disgrace

"flawed social insurance programs get better over time?" not with this piece of legislation

[girl gone mad]

8. I respectfully disagree with Krugman..

as I disagreed with him about the need to rush TARP through, and I disagreed with him when he said the sudden rise in oil prices was not being caused by rampant speculation, and as I disagreed with him when he supported Hillary and said Obama was a bad choice.

No one's perfect.

[Gregorian]

9. I have bill fatigue. I want more of the House in this thing. There is hope.

And elks on roller skates. Good night I now retire to the land of sleep.

[gateley]

11. "Fatigue" -- sums it up perfectly. nt

[Pirate Smile]

13. The White House also wants more of the House in this thing.

'DeParle says there are things that need to be improved and moved toward the House bill, particularly affordability, and she indicated that they were not pressing for a ping-pong of the Senate bill and expected a conference, but "not a year-long conference."'

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/17/816032/-Axelrod:-Everybodys-Edgy

[Gregorian]

49. Thanks. I was hoping to get more info on this part of the process.

[progressoid]

12. Sad to say that Nixon's healthcare plan was probably better than that turd they are trying to pass

Christ, what has happened to our country?

[Pirate Smile]

15. When people try to pass HCR and fail, the next time is less ambitious.

So killing this isn't going to lead to a better bill. It will lead to an even less ambitious try the next time.

The political cost of failure

Failure does not bring with it a better chance for future success. It brings a trimming of future ambitions.

Truman sought single payer. His failure led to Kennedy and Johnson, who confined their ambitions to poor families and the elderly. Then came Nixon, whose reform plan was entirely based around private insurers and government regulation. He was followed by Carter, who favored an incremental, and private, approach, and Clinton, who again sought to reform the system by putting private insurers into a market that would be structured and regulated by the government. His failure birthed Obama's much less ambitious proposal, which attempts to reform not the health-care system, but the small group and nongroup portions of the health-care system by putting a small minority of private insurance plans into a market that's structured and regulated by the government, and closed off to most Americans.

Failure does not breed success. Obama's defeat will not mean that more ambitious reforms have "a better chance of trying again." It will mean that less ambitious reformers have a better chance of trying next time.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/the_political_cost_of_failure.html

Progressives cheering "Kill the Bill" is a bitter sound.

[eridani]

22. But what it it isn't actually reform?

Anyone who thinks that forcing older people to pay three times as much for absolute GARBAGE can kiss my wrinkled old ass.

[Fruittree]

27. Question?

Where does it say that older people are going to pay three times as much? And three times as much as what or who? I honestly have read as much as I can about the bill and it's not perfect but it seems to be heading in the right direction. Would I love to see Lieberman out of the senate today? Yes! But the reality is that you're never going to get 100% consensus in a democracy therefore everything that happens is going to be slow and incremental. I say pass the bill and work to make it better over time. It's not just about us but about future generations.

[eridani]

28. Google is your friend

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-health-age9-2009nov09,0,2196213.story
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/the-unholy-trilogy-for-insurance-profits-individual-mandate-broad-age-rating-and-hardship-exemption/

I find it telling that you didn't give a shit about the issue to begin with, and never bothered to actually find out what it would do.

The bill is too shitty to improve. Its foundational assumption is that we will be FORCED to buy shitty UNDERINSURANCE. You know--the kind that is killing and bankrupting people right now.

[Fruittree]

36. Problem?

Were you responding to me? In which case, I find it telling that you would feel the need to be so rude and angry over a difference of opinion.

[eridani]

37. I'm not angry at you.; I'm angry at the people who are dictating that I have to be

--a second class citizen who pays 3 times as much because of my age. Why in goddam hell should I have to be calm about that?

[wackywaggin]

39. Agreed.

Some Democrats began there own demise, into corporate shills, while Jimmy Carter was President.
Uriah Heep and other Blue dogs saw that he failed in trying to help the People.

[Vinnie From Indy]

14. While I like Krugman

His entire argument rests on the ASSUMPTION that the health insurance industry will act in good faith. They won't and nothing in the bill proposals I have read so far compels them to do so. He is just dead wrong if he thinks that insurance companies will abide by the legislation as it stands now. They will simply implement any number of strategies to get around actually delivering treatement.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. I've written an online comment disputing Krugman this time

It will be interesting to see how many and what kind of comments there are tomorrow morning when they start displaying them.

[Goldstein1984]

17. I've been writing "kill the bill" all day, but I don't know anymore.

I'm no economist, but I've read Friedman and Keynes, and I've enjoyed Krugman's articles and talking-head interviews. He usually makes sense to me.

Maybe the problem is that this whole HCR process has been so sloppy, partisan and embarrassing that I don't trust it any longer. We have the House version, we have a Senate version (I think), and if passed by the Senate there will still be more crafting in committee until a final bill is completed, then maybe passed (It appears that President Obama is ready to sign almost anything with "Health Care Reform" on the cover page, so I'm assuming this is all in the hands of Congress.)

And there is a fundamental problem that runs like a current through all of this: I do not believe that our government, which is supposed to be us but seems to be them, represents the people. With some exceptions, they are all working for Corporate America.

So, it's not only near the end of a very long day, it's near the end of a very long process of trying to come up with health care reform that serves the interests of the people. For both reasons, I just going to wait and see what tomorrow brings.

My expectations are very low.

[uponit7771]

38. "...that I don't trust it any longer..." You're not alone...

[wackywaggin]

40. Obama is Desperate to sign a Health Bill!

That alone should make one want to slow down and take a good ,long look at what this bill contains. This debate shouldn't be about Obama "looking good", it should be about helping the people.If corporate America likes it, you know it's bad for us... Kill The Bill!!

[Goldstein1984]

48. Absolutely

I don't care how Obama looks. That's up to Obama.

This is ONLY about the people.

The SOLE value of government is how it serves the people.

AXIOM: In a democratic republic, "leaders" do what the people tell them to do.

[Hekate]

18. Thanks for the input from Dr. Krugman, Nobel Laureate Economist and Liberal...

Okay, there's still hope.

Hekate

[ShortnFiery]

42. Krugman is NOT a Liberal ... maybe a neo-liberal but not a democratic liberal. eom

[CreekDog]

19. Pass the bill and make those who messed it up pay for their actions

you and me can make sure that not even the dog catcher van is named after them. i might accede to naming the area where the dogs poop at the dog park after one or any number of them, but that's about it.

some of them would love an airport or park in their state named after them. if we raise enough of a stink, we can make the idea radioactive.

i will not take out my anger in a way that harms the poor and middle class health care reform is designed to help, even in this bill's weakened state.

but those that weakened it, you can make Lieberman and/or Nelson hate us as much as Lieberman hated being followed by the kissing dolls. since that's why he's doing this to us, i feel no guilt that his opposition to a good healthcare bill is in any way based on principle. if Nelson would like to play the same game with us, we can put his big head on a truck with Blue Cross and/or Nebraskans' most hated HMO.

we must not be screwed with for sport anymore, too much is at stake.

[eridani]

20. Who gives a flying fuck about affordable GARBAGE? n/t

[eridani]

21. Thanks Paul. Now all us 50-65 year olds are officially

--second class citizens and disposable human garbage.

[soapystern]

23. what!

did k-man oppose obama healthcare

[eridani]

24. No, he's in favor of it.

He apparently thinks it's just peachy keen for force older people to pay three times as much for shitty coverage.

[BzaDem]

25. I think he is OK with 3 because right now it is 5-10

and 3 would be a huge improvement.

[eridani]

31. But I'm not forced to buy utter shit like that. n/t

[Bodhi BloodWave]

26. compared to what, 5 times now?, it cuts it down a bit, future improvements on the bill can lower it

even more

[eridani]

30. I can't believe that ANYONE could believe such horseshit

The gutless Senate strips EVERYTHING that would have made the bill acceptable in order to FORECE us to buy GARBAGE, and is giving utterly useless sociopathic shitstains a trillion dollars of our money. After the blackmailer collects his money, surely you can get a better deal from him mext time. On what planet? Do the unicorns bite?

[BeyondGeography]

43. He's asking you to bear in mind the lessons of history

He's kind of implying he understands them better than you do. I think he's right.

[wackywaggin]

44. Why should he care?

He all ready has great health insurance coverage,I'm Sure.

[GeorgeGist]

29. Capitalist deceit

[DCBob]

32. I wish they could but seems Ben "anti-abortion" Nelson is now standing the way..

Why is that guy even call himself a Democrat?? Such as charade.

[CTLawGuy]

33. under the bus

Paul Krugman!

[jefferson_dem]

34. KnR.

n/t

[flpoljunkie]

35. There's work to do in conference, particularly the 3:1 'age' ratio in the Senate bill.

The House age ratio is 2:1. The Netherands has true community rating. Everyone pays the same. Of course, the premium is only 100 euros per month per person ($144 in today's dollars.)

Firedoglake has a great chart comparing the Netherlands private insurance with the proposed Senate bill.

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/this-is-nothing-like-the-netherlands-that-is-why-individual-mandate-is-unacceptable/

[ShortnFiery]

41. What? It Krugman now "our God?"

SnF to Krugman: STFU. :grr:

[Fire1]

46. He was when everybody was yelling about the economy. n/t

[Fire1]

45. Agree. n/t

[freddie mertz]

47. I tend to support the non-passage argument.

And I especially think that without cost controls, PO or Medicare buy-in, the mandates really DO have to go, and would have to go before I could vote for the rest of it, which includes some good things.

In the end, what seems indisputable is that this is very very bad, no matter what ends up happening.

I think we could have don e better with stronger WH leadership, I really do.

I put about 90 % of the blame on the WH strategy of leaving it all up to the House and Senate, and the other 1o % on the ghouls who rushed to fill the vaccum: Lieberman, Stupak, Nelson, Landrieu, and the rest of the undead crew..

The White House could have done a much better job of setting the bars here.