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It's About Affordability And The Mandates, Stupid

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:14 AM
Original message
It's About Affordability And The Mandates, Stupid
The issue of mandates is very problematic because it's wrong to force American families to subsidize private insurance with taxpayer money, and it further entrenches the special interests such as private insurance in our system. Right now, Americans are finding it hard to make ends meet, and Darcy Burner makes it very clear that a family of four making $54,000 cannot afford a policy of $9,000:

The latest CBO estimates for the Senate bill say that a family of four with a household income of $54,000/year should expect to pay 17% of their gross income on healthcare - about $9,000/year. (And that was when there was a public option to hold down costs!) That's more than they'll spend on federal taxes. That's more than they'll spend on food. I'm guessing if you took a poll, very few Americans would consider that affordable. And because of the way they've approached this, there's no effective cost cap on premiums and nothing providing downward pressure, so this is a problem that would get worse rather than better over time.


I know that Nate Silver feels very passionately that this is affordable for Americans in having their money go towards private insurance in the form of premiums AND in subsidies as well with no price controls on private insurance. He's wrong on this issue, and about the bill making insurance coverage better for Americans when the excise tax that he discusses will do the opposite of that. Here's why below:

Help is being defined as giving insufficient subsides to Americans now forced by the government to buy extremely expensive, poorly regulated, junk insurance. Without banning annual limits and an extremely high out-of-pocket cap (which thanks to a massive loophole is not really capped at all), the insurance regulations are basically meaningless. Having this new, mandated “coverage” will not stop you from being bankrupted by accumulated medical debt should you get seriously ill. Insurance that does not protect you from financial ruin if you get sick makes a mockery of the entire concept health insurance.

The harm this bill will do thanks to the excise tax on employer-provided insurance benefits is enormous. The health care bill is designed with the goal of making millions of middle class Americans’ health insurance coverage much worse. That is not a bug, it is a feature.

The excise tax is meant to force your employer to cut back your insurance benefits, reduce your coverage, and increase your co-pays and deductibles. This is not the conclusion of partisan think tanks, bloggers, or activists, this is the conclusion of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS). The CBO concluded:



The CMS also concluded:

In reaction to the tax, many employers would reduce the scope of their health benefits. The resulting reductions in covered services and/or increases in employee cost-sharing requirements would induce workers to use fewer services. Because plan benefit values would generally increase faster than the threshold amounts for defining high-cost plans (which are indexed by the CPI plus 1 percent), over time additional plans would become subject to the excise tax, prompting those employers to scale back coverage.


To translate, they both conclude the tax will effectively force employers to scale back the health insurance benefits they offer in order to avoid the excise tax. This can be done by reducing what benefits the plan covers and/or increasing cost sharing (i.e. higher co-pays, higher deductibles, higher out-of-pocket limits, and possibly lower annual limits). If you have a good employer provided health insurance plan, it will be dramatically scaled back. Contrary to Obama’s direct promise, you will not be able to keep the coverage you currently have, and that is by design.

The real problem with this excise tax on what are dubbed “Cadillac” plans is that it is not indexed to health care inflation. In the first few years, it will only affect high-end plans, but, after a decade, it would force employers to make the vast majority of employer-provided health insurance plans much worse. A decade after reform starts most Americans will have much worse health insurance coverage as a result.


And what kind of health reform is that? Especially with the annual limit loophole and
the loophole on out-of-pocket costs?

nother problem with the Senate bill is that it doesn’t plug a loophole that a lot of junk insurance plans use: not counting deductibles or co-payments for doctor’s visits or prescription drug payments toward a plan’s annual out-of-pocket maximum. That can be a catastrophe for people who are seriously ill. And it’s one of the things we recommended legislators fix.

The Senate bill does say that the stingiest plans must cap consumer’s out-of-pocket payments at around $6,000 (at least in the first year after reform goes into effect; the cap could go up in succeeding years based on inflation). But it fails to specify that ALL out-of-pocket expenses-- deductibles, coinsurance, co-payments, and similar charges--would count against that out-of-pocket-maximum. The House bill does. It’s not too late for the Senate to follow suit.


We were told that we wouldn't go into medical bankruptcy under this bill, but that has been shown to be false under this Senate bill. The annual limit loophole would very quickly put a family into medical bankruptcy especially if one of their children has cancer or if one of the spouses has a life-threatening illness. The annual limit becomes a lifetime cap for them. And the loophole on out-of-pocket costs exacerbates the problem for seriously ill people who think that deductibles, co-payments, and prescription drug payments are covered under the out-of-pocket cap when they're actually not covered at all thanks to this loophole inserted by private insurers.

We were told that private insurers wouldn't cherry pick, but the weak regulation in the Senate bill has lead to the continuing problem of adverse selection, and has been covered in detail by the Washington Post. We were told that private insurers wouldn't rescind your policies under the Senate bill, except we find that they have the same statutory excuse to rescind your coverage based on "fraud" that they already use. We were told that people with pre-existing conditions would be able to get into the stopgap high-risk pool in the Senate bill http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/13/813717/-$5-Billion-Isnt-Enough-For-Sick-And-Dying-Americans">except we found out that the high-risk pool would run out of money by 2011 due to being underfunded in the Senate bill, and that premiums in the high-risk pool would be expensive for these people.

Called a "high-risk pool," it would be a special health plan just for people with preexisting conditions, who are costlier to insure. A plan just for sick people could require extraordinarily high premiums. However, to make it more affordable, the bill would set aside $5 billion for federal subsidies. According to Foster, that's not enough.nd

"By 2011 and 2012 the initial $5 billion in Federal funding for this program would be exhausted, resulting in substantial premium increases to sustain the program; we anticipate such increases would limit further participation," he wrote.


That means that people with pre-existing conditions would find it very hard to afford insurance in the high-risk pool and would have to wait until 2014 to actually get into one of the 50 state exchanges under the Senate bill to find coverage from private insurers.







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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. I knew I wasn't the only one who couldn't afford the mandates...
And I knew I wasn't the only one that resented the Feds trying to force me to buy a product that I decided, 10 years ago, wasn't worth the money...

Thanks for a pile of information to prove my point to me, and others...

:+
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. thanks, LooseWilly
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thank you... I'm not looking forward to having this shite foisted upon me by well wishing, clueless,
insured wonks who think that we are all paid so well that the prices aren't the problems to access to health insurance... so it must be merely a matter of pre-existing conditions for all of us.

It would be really nice if social work (broadly speaking) academics were all forced to spend several years working actual blue collar jobs before they were considered for any grant money for research projects...

Wash dishes in an industrial setting for a few months... Walk dogs and deliver dry cleaning... deliver mail... drive a taxi... work as a waiter/waitress... day-laborer... non-union construction worker... maid...

Then let's see what the academics think.

Or maybe I should just go get a public policy degree (except, having worked all those blue collar jobs, I'm no longer eligible for any grant money... as I'm too old, and too much of a communist... :+ )

Just saying... keep up the good work brother (sister?)...
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm a sistah :-)
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Cheers
:toast:
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. +1 (one of millions) n/t
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. You know 2 years ago, that was Senator Obama's talking points
:rofl:

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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Sad
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. We've been seeing the "Change"
Since November 5th. The campaign rhetoric didn't make it 24 hours past his speech in Grant Park.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. He pilloried Hillary over mandates. And I agreed with him.
joke's on me.

ha. ha.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. Yep - it really po'd me that Hillary wanted those mandates.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. I guess Afghanistan was the major promise he kept
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. The POD people either do not get how much this will harm us, or they don't care.
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 10:06 AM by Dragonfli
They think it is worth our collective pain to keep their favorite politicians happy wealthy and unhindered by criticism.

This is going to be the worst piece of Republican reverse "Robin Hood" legislation that has ever been promoted by a so called Democratic congress, moreover it is being sold to us as help when we need it most by our Democratic president when it is little more than a poverty tax designed to enrich and further entrench the leaders of an industry that has already made obscene profits off of misery and even death.

Why are so few elected Democrats trying to help us in this fight? If they don't care about me or my "class" (obvious at this point) you would think they would care about the votes of a class that makes up the largest group of Americans.

Why also are the faithful HERE trying to ram this down my throat when it will destroy me financially?
Helping them sell me snake oil that may kill me is not very friendly or helpful. Have any of you faithful ever even read the party platform? Have any of you even bothered to learn what the party stood for before it was taken over by the NEW Democrats that you carry water for?

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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. 17 % of gross income is too much. Insurance is not a house, it's not a car, it's
not a tangible good or service, it holds no value, it's just money down the shitter on a gamble that someone is going to get seriously ill. Too much income claimed by healthcare will eventually grind down our standard of living, even if we can manage the monthly payments--but the insurance co's now want us to believe that 17% is what we SHOULD get accustomed to paying. 5 years from now it will be 20%, then 25%...
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. 17% of gross income
This is not progressive. Mandates without any public support are a pure giveaway and should be illegal.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. And we need to keep reminding ourselves that this isn't even about health CARE....

it's about health INSURANCE.

Even with mandated insurance -- which millions cannot afford -- most still won't be able to afford access to HEALTH CARE.

Pathetic.

Well, this meme seems to be gaining a lot of traction today, so hopefully some miraculous improvements can be implemented, someway, somehow. Can DC really be THIS tone deaf?

I suppose we'll see.



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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. How sad is that?
We all started by talking about reforming Health Care - it has devolved down to a discussion about how to hand 30 million of America's poorest over to the for profit health INSURANCE industry. What happens when the poorest and sickest can't afford the crapsurance they will be forced to take? Fines? What well happen when they can't afford to pay the fines they have to pay because they can't afford the crapsurance they are forced to take? Debtors prison?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
13. Kick....Thanks!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. you're welcome!
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. A timely reminder of yet another betrayal.
It is such a shame.
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girl_interrupted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. K&R
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
21. I gotta rec this
because this is where we pretty much are.

Not addressing affordability, enforcement of regulations, and individual recourse for insurance scams ans shenanigans is a recipe for no one to get care but the wealthy and maybe the rich in the not so distant future in exchange for covering people that can't afford their personal contribution and still don't get treatment for a few years until the whole economy crashes over it should we have one functioning at that given time.

This could end up really stinking. People might have to pony up 17% of gross before big insurance pays a nickle. Where do folks dig that out of their ass after taxes, housing, food, utilities, transportation, education expenses, etc? You might only be taking home 60ish percent of your your gross as is.
In most cases you're going to be a serf with no way out and no reprieve. Remember that poverty is set at crazy unrealistic levels, a single person they think is getting by passably if they make over $10,830 and they figure it shouldn't be too tough to support a family of four on anything over $22,050. Heck, they'd argue you could reprise Eight is enough as long as you pull down a cool $37,010.

Even with the subsidies, if you get sick you'll still be pretty well screwed. Plus, we're at 17% and are even allowing for the possibility of increases which pretty much has to be off the table.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. The $9,000 is only the premium for the policy.
There will still be deductibles, co-pays and all the bills they can figure out a way to weasel out of.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. you're right on that
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. Most western nations are at about 8-10% of income for healthcare
So, remind me how this reduces costs?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. This Senate bill really doesn't reduce costs.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
27. knr nt
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Garam_Masala Donating Member (711 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. Please explain the $9000 and 17%
"The latest CBO estimates for the Senate bill say that a family of four with a household income of $54,000/year should expect to pay 17% of their gross income on healthcare - about $9,000/year."

The health insurance is just the beginning of out of pocket expense.
Then you have deductibles to be met and then insurance will pay 80% in most cases.

So a $50,000 hospital bill will mean you have $10,000 liability, capped by whatever
the out of pocket expense limit is. So in my family of four, in a bad year we would have
bills of $6600 for hospitalization for minor reasons for 2 people. Then you add doctor's
office visits, medications, incidentals and you are easily approaching $10k. That is on TOP
of your health insurance premiums.
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