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Exactly who is President Obama being compared to?

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 10:54 PM
Original message
Exactly who is President Obama being compared to?
Who is this President whose standard President Obama isn't living up to?

LBJ, pissed a lot of people off with Vietnam, but he's considered among the best.

President Obama not only saved the country from a depression, he changed it by enacting landmark health care reform after 100 years of attempts, histortic student loan reform, the strongest financial reforms since FDR, including a first-ever Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, all in his first 18 months.

He keeps going despite the noise:

I realize that after Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, some people aren't impressed by a President Obama, but he can't please everyone.

Frankly: On a scale of 1 to 10, he's a ten.

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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Right on! K&R
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think he's being compared to the guy he presented to us
before the election.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hitler, on most days /nt
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. I generally compare him to himself and to a generic Democrat in his place.
My normal questions are "Did he do something that any other Democrat in the White House wouldn't or couldn't have done?" and "Has he fought for what he said he would?"

So far I give him a six or seven, depending on the news that day. He's better than a Republican would have been. On the other hand, any of the other candidates would have signed at least the same legislation that he has, so I don't see him as better average. I don't see him working on any issues that are uniquely his accomplishments. Mostly he just signs legislation that other people have created with minimal input from him, and minimal Congressional work to sell something better.

I guess the bottom line so far is that I see his successes as Democratic Party successes, and I see his failures as a lack of personal effort or ability on his part. In every case where he has signed something with an impressive name that looks good in blue hyperscript, I feel like he could have gotten more, but didn't know how to.

So he's alright. Things are getting better. He's not Clinton, but he's not Bush, either. He could get better. I see no indication that he'll get worse. So he's about what I expected when I voted for him.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but I tend to actually analyze questions, even if they are meant as rhetorical.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I love this response
Edited on Tue Nov-16-10 11:19 PM by ProSense
"Mostly he just signs legislation that other people have created with minimal input from him, and minimal Congressional work to sell something better."

Is that true for all Presidents?

There are a lot of things uniquely this President's: for example, new policy steps towards Cuba, Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty with Russia, and entire transparency agenda

"He's not Clinton"

You're right, he passed health care reform and reversed Clinton-era deregulations.



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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. No, that's not true for most other presidents.
Other presidents take the lead in influencing legislation. Clinton was a master at that, with a real stimulus/works plan to head off the last Republican collapse--it was so successful that we barely noticed it, despite the same level of gloom and doom preceding it. Clinton rammed through tax increases on the wealthy, so that his stimulus bill wasn't watered down by Reaganomics, unlike Obama's. Not just Clinton. LBJ got Civil Rights passed by working Congress, not by softening up what he signed until it was a bare nod at what he was trying to accomplish. Same with JFK and Truman.

I don't see that with Obama. The items you name are exactly the kinds of things I was talking about, even Obama's regulation legislation. Given a Democratic Congress, he should have done a lot more, but he lacked the experience to know how, and he lacks the expertise to really affect the legislation he suggests. Look at his stimulus bill--he cut out too much of the stimulus, threw in the same types of tax cuts that had undermined the economy already just to make conservatives happy, and came up with a bill that undermined itself. Sure, it helped, but considering every Democrat and even some Republicans were behind a real stimulus, he could have gotten more and given up less.

He's just alright, so far. He's a bill signer. If you haven't watched politics for more than the last decade, he probably looks like a genius, compared to Bush. But in the scheme of presidents, he's just okay.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Here's is what you said
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 12:04 AM by ProSense
My normal questions are "Did he do something that any other Democrat in the White House wouldn't or couldn't have done?" and "Has he fought for what he said he would?"

So far I give him a six or seven, depending on the news that day. He's better than a Republican would have been. On the other hand, any of the other candidates would have signed at least the same legislation that he has, so I don't see him as better average. I don't see him working on any issues that are uniquely his accomplishments. Mostly he just signs legislation that other people have created with minimal input from him, and minimal Congressional work to sell something better.


The title of the OP is: Exactly who is President Obama being compared to?

You are now claiming that he's being compared to Democratic placeholder. There is no guarantee that anyone would have the same track record as this President. You are also deminishing his role in achieving his agenda. This has been the norm with this President. Even when Elizabeth Warren applauded the President for his role in seeing that the consumer bureau became a reality, he was portrayed as an obstacle.

"Other presidents take the lead in influencing legislation. Clinton was a master at that..."

Yet he failed at health care reform.

Along with Wall Street reform, these are among this President's signature achievements.




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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
57. So, since everyone is saying it, it must be wrong?
Ever stop to hear what all these people you are frustrated with are saying? You are citing other people saying something similar to me and implying I must be wrong because others see the same thing I do.

And the title of my thread was that I usually compared him to himself or to a generic Democrat. How does that sound different than "placeholder?" Whatever name you attach, I think I was clear what I meant.

You seem to like the health care bill, but it proves my point. Every candidate in 2010 had a health care bill similar to it. What Obama signed was closer to a watered-down version of Clinton's proposal, and carried details Obama swore he wouldn't include, like mandated coverage. Any of the other candidates would have gotten at least what Obama did passed and signed. A president who took the lead earlier in the process would have gotten more.

He's a decent president. He's not that great. Clinton did much more with less. Carter probably accomplished less, but had a more focused vision that is still paying dividends. LBJ worked miracles with Civil Rights, did great with The Great Society, and ruined his legacy with Vietnam. JFK started the lunar program and the Peace Corp and stared the Soviet Union into a stalemate. Obama hasn't done anything yet at their levels. And his handling of DADT, Iraq, and Afghanistan have been bad.

I'm glad he's there, instead of McCain. I'm glad it was him instead of Edwards or Biden, too, even if he did put Biden one lone nutcase away from the office. I voted for him in the general, and I'll vote for him in the general in 2012. But Christ, he's done nothing to get this excited over. Yet, anyway. I haven't written him off, but I'm still waiting to be impressed.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. " But Christ, he's done nothing to get this excited over. "
No one is saying that everyone has to be excited, but there is nothing wrong with celebrating significant progress.

Some are going to continue to dump on this President's achievements, they should expect others to counter them.



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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Just a "bill signer"?
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 05:48 AM by Axrendale
With all due respect, I think that you are failing to give Obama credit for the role that he did play in the legislative accomplishments to his name thus far. Sure, it was by no means a perfect performance, but to declare unequivocally that "any" Democrat elected in his place could have produced an equal or better record, is, I would say, more than a little bit unfair.

Let's first take a look at some of the historical precedents that you hold up as being superior Presidential Legislators to our current POTUS. I find it interesting that you use Harry S. Truman as an example. "Give 'em Hell Harry" certainly did know how to roar from the Bully Pulpit with the best of them, and any liberal Democrat worth his/her salt can only experience a distinct feeling of pride that our party was once led by a such a man. The trouble with holding him up as a parable of how a President should get a legislative agenda passed through Congress when their party holds the majority however, is that Truman was, quite frankly, terrible at doing this. His approach to dealing with Congress had all the subtlety of a sledgehammer, and the (rather predictable) result was that in almost eight years of promoting his Fair Deal legislation, HST managed to get Congress to pass one - that's right, count 'em, one - of his initiatives in a form that he was prepared to sign - a housing bill that had been so watered down by the time it landed on his desk that it seems patently ludicrous to hold it up as any sort of example of "getting more and giving up less".

John F. Kennedy had something of a better time working with the Democrats in his two (or rather one and a half) Congresses, but not so much so that the last truly great President (every President since has been either of flawed greatness or a relative nonentity) can be trumpeted as having had enjoyed anything even close to the same level of success as that enjoyed by truly successful PLs. By 1963 the New Frontier initiatives that had managed to be signed into law were uniformly of a fairly minor note - and this was quite deliberate. JFK was more than canny a politician enough to understand that any political capital he sought to expend fighting to break the thoroughly conservative Congress of the time to his will would only be wasted - he would have to work with, not against, the legislators of his day. He did so in a manner highly reminiscent of that employed by Obama, incidently - and the result was that although Kennedy did not managed to achieve any overly flashy results in the short-term, he was able to get a good number of watered down measures enacted, and build up the foundations for much greater action in the future. Some might find this a little disappointing, but others would argue that it was better than the failure to get anything done at all. JFK always defined himself as a "pragmatic idealist" - he understood what he wanted and why, but he also understood the limitations of the political resources at his disposal, and sought to work within those boundaries.

The fact is that in the entire course of American political history, there have only ever been five Presidents who have succeeded in forming a contextually historic progressive legislative agenda and been able to compel/coerce Congress into enacting at least part of it into law - one Republican and four Democrats. They are: Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson, and... Barack Obama (John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon might have made the list, but were respectively assassinated and disgraced before they could do so). Of these five, it is fairly safe to say that three of them can be singled out as possessing legislative accomplishments that stand out in scope above those of the other two: and those are Roosevelt, Johnson, and Obama, in that order (Obama's present legislative accomplishments probably hover in relative terms somewhere between those of Johnson and Wilson). The inclusion of our current President in that list for the results of his first two years (if some people think it unfair to rate Obama solely on the outcome of half his first term, it should be remembered that it is usual for Presidents to cram the bulk of their achievements into short periods of time. Most of Theodore Roosevelt's Square Deal was enacted from 1905 - 1906, Woodrow Wilson's New Freedom was largely confined to the period from 1913 - 1914, FDR's New Deal was at its height from 1933 - 1936, and LBJ's Great Society was brought about in bulk during the years prior to 1966) is all the more remarkable, one might note, as all of the four (with the exception of Wilson, in terms of numbers at least) 20th Century ones had at the time of their greatest legislative accomplishments significantly more in the way of political resources to draw upon than Obama ever dreamed of. Don't believe me? Let's take a look at the numbers:

- From 1905 5o 1906, when Theodore Roosevelt sought to ram as much of his Square Deal legislation through Congress as possible he was able to do so more than anything else by virtue of commanding a twenty-eight seat majority in the Senate (59 Republicans to just 31 Democrats) and a one hundred and sixteen seat majority in the House (251 Republicans to 135 Democrats), over both of which he was widely thought to hold even greater influence than Kaisar Wilhelm held over the Reichstag.

- From 1913 to 1914, Woodrow Wilson's Democratic coalition that he used to pass the New Freedom held an overwhelming majority in the House of one hundred and forty-seven seats (291 Democrats, 9 Progressives, and an Independent to 134 Republicans). Their majority in the Senate seemed less convincing on paper (51 Democrats and 1 Progressive to 44 Republicans), but this belied the reality that the entire progressive wing of the Republican party remained furious at the rejection of Theodore Roosevelt by the Party powerbrokers in 1912, and in revenge for this were more than willing to join with the Democrats in a coalition to enact that legislation they had been agitating for for years.

- The 74th United States Congress, which met from 1935 to 1936 and which was compelled by Franklin D. Roosevelt to pass a series of historic economic and social statutes that formed the keystone of the New Deal, did so partially thanks to FDR's matchless politicking, but partially also by virtue of being dominated by the most powerful legislative coalition ever to be assembled in American history. FDR enjoyed the loyalty of 69 Democrats, 1 Farmer-Laborer, and 1 Progressive against just 25 Republicans in the Senate, and 322 Democrats, 3 Farmer-Laborers, and 7 Progressives against just 103 Republicans in the House.

- When Lyndon B. Johnson rammed measure after legislative measure that collectively made up the bulk of the Great Society through the 89th US Congress from 1965 to 1966, he was in command of a legislative coalition that was almost as impressive as that presided over by FDR. 68 Democrats in the Senate (to 32 Republicans) and 295 Democrats in the House (against 140 Republicans) swore fealty to LBJ at the height of his power.

It is worth noting that despite holding these seemingly invincible majorities in both houses of Congress, TR, Wilson, FDR, and LBJ all had to wheel, deal, compromise, and negotiate like mad to get anything from the Legislative branch. Those who felt (and continue to feel) that the results each of these men achieved were somehow "half-measures" that could have been far better than they were (a famous story tells how Eugene Debbs, the leader of the American Socialist Party, was in the aftermath of the Social Security Act of 1935's enactment asked whether FDR had not carried out the Socialist agenda. "He certainly has carried it out", Debbs replied. "He has carried it out on a sretcher!") fail to appreciate just how much effort it really took to achieve even these "limited" results.

- We know come to Barack Obama and the 111th Congress. Over the past (almost) two years, Obama in seeking to enact his own legislative agenda (dubbed the "New Foundation") has been confronted with the realities of managing a legislative coalition that at its absolute height consisted of 58 Democrats and 2 Independents opposed by 40 Republicans, while in the House the Democratic coalition never achieved a greater strength than 258 Democrats to 177 Republicans - the smallest effective majorities on this list.

When one then factors in the die-hard opposition that the Democrats have faced from the Republicans, a phenomenon that almost resembles the fervor with which Southern politicians opposed Civil Rights legislation, applied universally to the agenda of the President, as well as the difficulty involved in simply maintaining cohesion within the ranks of his own party (a problem that has not been so pronounced in the House, but which has proved lethal to numerous pieces of legislation in the Senate), and a case can actually made that Obama was lucky to get as much out of the past eighteen months as he has.

Certainly one can argue (probably rightly) that he could have improved considerably on certain areas of his performance. But that is to neglect that there is much to the legislative record of the 111th Congress that is genuinely historic, and to dismiss the President as merely a bit-player in the process, crippled by a "lack of experience and expertise", is forgive me, to betray having paid little attention to exactly what role he did play. It was Obama's iniatives that resulted in a great part of the legislation that he has managed to sign into law, and a number of items that failed to be enacted. His initiatives and his negotiations, his attempts to fulfill on his promises, and his input into the contents of the legislation that will be his legacy, formed an influence on the legislative process since the beginning of his presidency, that for better or worse must be reckoned with as having been highly influential on the "contents of the sausages", so to speak. Like it or loathe it, the legislation that has become law, from the ARRA through to the Healthcare Bill, through to the Financial Regulation package, and beyond, bears Obama's signature in more ways than one. If Hillary Clinton or John Edwards had been the Democratic nominee in 2008, or if Bill Clinton had managed to evade the 22nd Ammendment and return for a third term, then their final tally of legislative accomplishments by this point would certainly have been very different from Obama's - but I for one am not at all sure that the differences would have been for the better. Those who complain of the Healthcare Bill's flaws have a number of very important points to make, but it is important to remember that we could just as easily have had no bill at all. The Financial Regulatory package could have been a lot stronger... but it could also potentially have been signiciantly weaker.

As a final note on the Stimulus bill, I agree with those who contend that it was/is not nearly large enough, but also tend to sympathize with those who contend that it was just about as a big as was reasonable to hope for from a strictly political standpoint. Perhaps it could have been made bigger, but not by enough to make a reasonable difference.

A note on the tax cuts however - it is certainly true that the ARRA contained within it one of the largest tax cutting programs in history. That does not however make them in any way, shape, or form in any way similar to Reaganomics, nor do they at all resemble the supply-side tax cuts that have done such harm over the past decade. The tax cuts that Obama pushed for were demand-side Keynesian tax cuts of the same kind as those which were pursued by John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. Certainly from an economic perspective government spending is far more effective at stimulating the economy than tax cuts (although these are very capable of providing some stimulus if they are properly aimed at the middle class), but the entire rationale behind "Reactionary Keynesianiam" has always been that it is more politically acceptable, even if it is less economically efficient, than Progressive Keynesianism (one thinks of FDR using military spending as a substitute for deficit spending in order to banish the last vestiges of the Great Depression).
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Excellent post.
Welcome to DU.

:hi:

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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. To JTFrog -
- Thank you :)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Wonderful read.
Welcome to DU, and thanks.

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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. You are most welcome -
- and thank you :)
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Good post.
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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. -
Thanks :)
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. Well done.
Too bad there's too many words for the haterz to read. Excellent post.

Julie
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. I doubt any swing voters or moderates will ever read anything like it either.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:42 AM by Dr Fate
And I'm not quite sure if they need too.

Even after this LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG list of the wonderful things Obama did, we still lost the midterms.

Swing voters should not have to read LOOOOOOOOOONG political tomes to find out whether their leaders are doing a good job- they should simply be able to look for the increase in their bank accounts and paychecks.

It's not just "Haterz" at DU who are not getting the message about how effective Obama must be.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. Valid point, many pay no attention to politics
Sadly, when they do take a glance on occasion that get what the corporate media tells them.

On the other hand, a forum full of political junkies who live and die by the pols, well it's a damn shame they seem to know as little about the current President's accomplishments as those barely glancing at politics. That is beyond sad.

Julie
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. Great post!
Thanks, and welcome to DU!

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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
50. ***THIS WOULD MAKE A GREAT TOP POST***
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 01:42 PM by uponit7771
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Agree. n/t
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
59. To avoid a twenty page rebutal, I'll just summarize.
To judge the job a president is doing or does, you don't compare him to past presidents and their achievements. You compare them to what he has to work with and the time he serves in. If you want to compare Obama to others, compare how much he achieved in relation to what he could be expected to achieve against the same criteria for other presidents. LBJ, for instance, had a Democratic Congress, but many of them were conservative Southern Democrats he had to fight, especially on Civil Rights. Obama's Congress was more favorable to him than LBJ's, and yet LBJ passed the Civil Rights Bill, which, even as he signed it, he admitted would cost his party the South for a generation. What has Obama done like that? On the other hand, coming in to his administration, the whole nation realized that deregulation had led to the financial market collapse, and the whole nation wanted that fixed. The whole nation expected health care reform of some form, and were just waiting to see what would be passed. The whole nation expected and demanded a stimulus package. Much of the re-regulation and "bailout" legislation Obama passed was already being worked into legislation before he took office, by Republicans and Democrats alike, though of course the Democrats put a heavier stamp on it when they won Congress.

If I tell you that a sports team scored 28 points the other night, you have no idea whether that was a great or poor performance without knowing what the other team scored, or for that matter even knowing what the scoring system for that sport was. 28 points would be a horrible basketball score, a good football score, an amazing baseball score, and an impossible soccer score. Even knowing it's a football score doesn't tell you that the other team scored 59, so the 28 wasn't impressive. Same with politics. You can't just list a whole bunch of bills a president signed and say "See? Success!" Context, rules, environment, are all more important than the raw numbers.

Any of the candidates running in 2010 would have gotten at least what Obama did, and likely more. LBJ had a majority of Democrats, as you say, but also as you say a great number of them were conservative southern Democrats who worked against him. FDR had a stronger Congress on his side, but the nature and scope of what he passed in context so far exceeds anything Obama did that the comparison isn't even in the same ballpark. On down the line.

He hasn't been bad, but these attempts to claim that he is one of "five Presidents who have succeeded in forming a contextually historic progressive legislative agenda and been able to compel/coerce Congress into enacting at least part of it into law" is hagiography more than history.

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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #59
79. The trouble with what your rebuttal is that -
Edited on Thu Nov-18-10 02:26 AM by Axrendale
- you are failing to apply the same standards to Obama that you apply to FDR, LBJ, etc.

It is indeed true that Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson (and for that matter Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman and Jack Kennedy) had an immense amount of trouble with the Southern Conservative wing of the Democratic party, to say nothing of numerous other factions amongst the party, from the Populists to the Silverites, all of whom had wildly different agendas. The Democratic party has always been a far more diverse and chaotic political organization than the Republican party, and it has historically been extremely rare for any party leader to get some measure of control over it as a whole (really the only ones who ever managed were Roosevelt and Johnson, and to an extent Clinton - but only after 1994).

The problem is that you are refusing to recognize that Obama has had to deal with the exact same problems of party factional management. You are kidding yourself if you think that he hasn't had to deal with a positive nightmare trying to get the Blue Dogs to stand in line long enough to get something done. And unlike Wilson (or Reagan, to use an example from the opposite side of the political spectrum) the opposition party has allowed him no opportunities to form an effective majority to overcome the conservatives within his own party. When Woodrow Wilson was passing the New Freedom legislation through the Senate, he was able to bypass a number of the more conservative Democratic Senators who were opposing his agenda because an entire wing of the Republican party (the Bull Moosers and progressives) were willing to vote with him - forming a coalition that had enough votes that the conservative wing of the Democratic was rendered irrelevant. In the times of FDR and LBJ, they had such large majorities that the conservative wing of the party was balanced out by enough moderates and liberals to largely squash the more unpleasant aspects of the Southern agenda (it ought to be remembered that many of the conservative Democrats were invaluable allies for FDR in overcoming the isolationists), and in addition to this there was a progressive/liberal wing of the Republican party that they could reach out to for the extra votes that they needed to again render the Southern Caucus irrelevant.

Obama has had none of these advantages of the past two years. There is no longer anything even resembling a liberal wing of the Republican party - the GOP has been virtually unanimous in its opposition to just about every single part of the President's agenda, from the Stimulus Bill to the Healthcare Bill to the Financial Regulation Bill, and so because of this he has been forced to look for almost all of his votes within his own party. Because the size of its majorities have not been anything even approaching the effective majorities that were commanded by Wilson, FDR, and LBJ (or even the paper majorities held by Truman and JFK), he has had to cope with his agenda effectively being held hostage by the Blue Dogs, and yet in spite of that he has managed to force initiatives through the Legislative branch that in relative terms surpass those of any other President save Roosevelt and Johnson. That is a significant achievement, like it or not.

When President Obama came into office, there was indeed a general expectation of great activity from him, and Congress was already churning over a number of ideas. But it was the President's initiatives, thrown into the mix, and the active role that he played in the development of the legislation that was ultimately passed and signed into law, that played the truly decisive role in the shaping of the substance of that legislation. For all that legislative sausage-making is a process that requires many hands working the machinery and feeding in the meat, it is Barack Obama who at the end of the day an honest assessment finds to be deserving of the lions share of the credit for the form and contents of the bulk of his "New Foundation" thus far. It is indeed the substance of any legislation that must be judged to determine its historic importance, and I would contend that the substance of the initiatives that Obama has been responsible for passing through Congress - yes, playing an active role in the forming and passing of the legislation by "working" the legislative branch, not merely just signing the end result - are more than enough for an evaluation of him as a Presidential legislator to find him to have surpassed the relative achievements of Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, and to be somewhere below Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson (this is not surprising, as these two had respectively twelve and five years to work on their legislative legacies, whereas we are only evaluating Obama's first two years).

You continue to insist that "any" of the candidates running in 2008 could have gotten "just as much as Obama did". I continue to think that this is a positively ridiculous assertion. In 1993, when Bill Clinton - who you hold up as a "master" of "working Congress" - came into the Presidency with a legislative agenda of his own, he had Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress to work with that were on paper only the tinest fraction smaller than those which Obama had to work with: 57 Democrats in the Senate (to Obama's 58) and 258 Democrats in the House (to Obama's 258). Clinton had a Republican party to deal with that opposed his agenda, but not nearly to the same rabid extent to which they have opposed that of Obama, and the Blue Dogs were far less of an influential presence in the Democratic party in the 1990s. And yet Clinton utterly fluffed his chances of achieving an historic legislative agenda. His political management and party leadership during the first two years of his presidency were appalling by just about any standard, and the result was that while a few pieces of important progressive legislation were enacted (such as the Family Medical and Leave Act) and some controversial pieces (such as NAFTA), on the whole Clinton managed to get nothing done in his first two years (or for that matter his later six years) that would establish him in the eyes of history as a truly effective progressive Presidential legislator. John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon (!) were more effective at "working" Congress to pass liberal legislation, and they all fall well below the four true greats of the 20th Century: Roosevelt, Wilson, Roosevelt, and Johnson.

When Barack Obama came into office by contrast, with legislative majorities just a shade larger than those Clinton had had, confronted with the Blue Dogs having significantly consolidated their influence and the Republicans more unified in their determination to stonewall everything and anything that the Democrats might try to do than they ever had been in history, he still managed to forge a legislative legacy that will likely be judged by history to have been significant indeed. His political style of working with Congress may have been inelegant, at times almost painful to watch (it put a very heavy emphasis on trying to avoid the mistakes that Clinton had made, especially his heavy-handedness), but it produced some powerful results. The iniatives that it was successful in enacting resulted in a Stimulus Package that contained at least five seperate pieces of legislation that count as truly historic (the largest tax cuts for the middle class in history, and the largest investments in infrastructure, education, medical research, and clean energy in history), a Healthcare Bill that might have been painfully watered down but which will still move America closer to universal coverage than we have ever been before (as well as containing such useful things as the Patients Bill of Rights), a Financial Regulatory package that might be far less than we might have hoped for, but which still represents the most powerful steps toward economic regulation since the New Deal, as well as an assortment of lesser accomplishments including hate-crimes legislation, regulation of the tobacco companies, a "Credit Card Bill of Rights", further initiatives concerning education and the environment, and an assortment of other accomplishments that easily rival the historic significance of anything that was ever accomplished by Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter. A note might also be made on the subject of taxes. Not only did Obama's initiatives bring about sweeping tax cuts in the ARRA, but he then went on to introduce numerous tax cuts over the ensuing eighteen months, arguably establishing himself as a contender for the title of "most effective tax-cutting President". Is this a good thing? Yes it is. Because as much as we would all like to see a return of the progressive marginal income tax rates of the 1950s and '60s, and some more support for the heavily progressive estate tax that Theodore Roosevelt originally called for at the beginning of the 20th Century, it is at the same time highly refreshing to see a return of basic Keynesian economics to the Executive branch - understanding that tax cuts can provide a certain level of economic stimulus as long as they are aimed at the middle class - which is precisely where President Obama, following in the footsteps of JFK and LBJ (whose collective achievement of the Revenue Act of 1964, which was proposed by Kennedy and enacted by Johnson, is the greatest example in history of a tax cut boosting economic performance) has been aiming his tax cuts. Ever since the 1980s, conservatives have been working to shift the tax burden away from the wealthy and onto the middle class. By reducing the tax burden of the latter, Obama's tax policies might thus far be addressing only half of the problem - but that is certainly far more of the problem than might have been addressed otherwise.

You pose the question of what in Obama's legislative record thus far can be held up as an equivalent of Lyndon Johnson forcing the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1965 through Congress even though he suspected that they would ensure the losing of the South. Contrary to what you may have expected when you posed that question, I have an answer for you. When Obama made the decision that the centerpiece of his legislative efforts in the first half of his first term would consist of a push for a Healthcare reform bill, he predicted (accurately, and giving the lie to those who insist that the President lacks a political intellect) that the fight to get such a bill enacted would cost him fifteen points in the polls, and possibly compromise his chances of reelection. He predicted this, and then he went on to engage in that struggle anyway, because he believed (and at this point it is looking like he was correct about this too) that if he didn't pass a major Healthcare bill at the begining of his presidency, then he never would.

Some people might disagree, but the fact that the President made such a call continues to give me some hope and admiration for him.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. This used to be what DU was about.....
now it's been reduced to one sentence sloganeering, most folks acting like they've forgotten how politics work, and many ignoring that the fucked up media gets to tell the story, and not enough Dems are willing to go against the red hot craze of Obama bashing 24/7.

Thank you for the info.

and welcome to DU!
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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. To Frenchiecat -
- Thank you in turn, and you are very welcome. :)
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #79
84. Exactly. Except Mr. Obama did it the hard way.
Edited on Thu Nov-18-10 03:57 AM by political_Dem
Just think he had to do this with death threats, a "revolt" inside his own party, Republicans wanting to impeach him and continuous investigations of his birth certificate.

Btw, thank you for your posts in this thread. They are fantastic and intelligently put. People need to read them to get a detailed explaination of the President's role in pushing policy historically and in the present day.

Welcome to DU. Please do continue posting quality information. We need it. :hi:
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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. Thanks,
and you too are very welcome. :)
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
61. Welcome to DU!
Lots of good history in there.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
80. EXCELLENT post. Welcome to DU. n/t
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
37. Informative- thanks. n/t
n/t
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Japanbest Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
35. True. Our Health care Reform bill was basically the same thing Hillary propose
Nearly identical.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #35
89. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
88. That health care bill Clinton signed was great.
Oh... wait...

The fact of the matter is he took a different approach and got a better result. If I were to use your "analytical" process, I'd say he should score a lot higher.
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. He's already one of the greatest presidents ever. One must be a real
history ignorant or a simple hater to dispute that - let alone to call him the names he's being called by people who are suppose to be educated and enlightened.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. It's the economy
With unemployment what it is and not getting better, and with millions losing their homes, you can't expect people to be cheering.
Unless this stuff starts improving Obama's not going to be popular. Right now he's not really even seeming to care about it.
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. For everything, spin... spin... spin.
Bob Dole's health care plan.

A shoddy financial reform bill that doesn't address the actual problems.

I am glad that the corporations are doing so well and the stock market agrees. Surely these are things to be proud of.

Sad what counts as progress these days.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. "Bob Dole's health care plan."
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 01:05 AM by ProSense
Thought it was RomneyCare?

Call it whatever you want to, it passed.

"A shoddy financial reform bill that doesn't address the actual problems"

Not everyone agrees with you

At some point this isn't really a good response: "For everything, spin... spin... spin."


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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. Same thing.
Romney adopted Bob Dole's plan.

And yes, a shoddy financial reform bill.. (from the link you provided an obviously didn't read "Though Dodd-Frank gives government new powers to protect against flagrant abuses, the core business model that crashed the system is still basically intact. As economists Jane D'Arista and Gerald Epstein observe in a recent paper for the Roosevelt Institute, the biggest banks are still dangerously dependent on short-term borrowing and high leverage to finance the trading activities that account for nearly all of their net profits")


You probably should read the links you provide that destroy the argument you are trying to make.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. "Romney adopted Bob Dole's plan." Really?
Every health care bill since Nixon's has included many of the same elements. The President's plan does include elements similar to the MA plan, which was in large part written by a Democratic legislature:

In fall 2005 the House and Senate each passed health care insurance reform bills.

The legislature made a number of changes to Governor Romney's original proposal, including expanding MassHealth (Medicaid and SCHIP) coverage to low-income children and restoring funding for public health programs. The most controversial change was the addition of a provision which requires firms with 11 or more workers that do not provide "fair and reasonable" health coverage to their workers to pay an annual penalty. This contribution, initially $295 annually per worker, is intended to equalize the free care pool charges imposed on employers who do and do not cover their workers.

On April 12, 2006 Governor Mitt Romney signed the health legislation.<14> He vetoed 8 sections of the health care legislation, including the controversial employer assessment.<15> Romney also vetoed provisions providing dental benefits to poor residents on the Medicaid program, and providing health coverage to senior and disabled legal immigrants not eligible for federal Medicaid.<16><17> The legislature promptly overrode six of the eight gubernatorial section vetoes, on May 4, 2006, and by mid-June 2006 had overridden the remaining two.<18>


So, if as you say Romney adopted Dole's plan, the MA Democratic legislature improved upon it, leading to Romney veto and the subsequent override of that veto.

Which is it: Is Obama's health care law the same as Dole's plan or the one Romney vetoed?



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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. It can be all of the above.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
12. Bookmarked!
n/t
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
14. K&R!
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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
16. In response to the OP
Obama suffers from the same phenomenon of historical comparisons that afflicted Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush: being compared to Franklin Roosevelt. Some of them might loathe it, others might revel in it, but William Leuchtenburg hit the nail on the head when he wrote that the modern Presidency lives in the shadow of FDR, and the modern President, no matter what his venture might be, undertakes it treading in the tiretracks of the Rooseveltian wheelchair. It doesn't matter if it is inspiring leadership, economic management, legislation and general domestic agenda, foreign policy, etc - because the 32nd POTUS made such an enormous impact on just about every facet of the Executive branch of government, there is little way for subsequent Presidents to avoid comparison with him, and they are frequently found to be wanting.

For liberals, whenever we feel dissatisfied with our current government, FDR more than any other man tends to be the leader that we wish would come back - if only because he was arguably the most effective leader in American history, and the man who entrenched liberalism as the dominant feature of the American political landscape for four decades.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
34. I'm waiting for someone to tell us that tale about how FDR was really centrist.
I'm not kidding- there is this talking point around DU where people compare the socialist party of the 30's to the modern DEM base.

The claim is that the "far left" hated FDR fpr not going far enough "just like the lefties in the base now." I'm sure it is true that the fringe left wanted FDR to be as far to the left as possible, but that is NOT comparable to what Obama's Democratic base is asking for today.

They seem to leave out the part where FDR was successful, popular with a majority of voters AND most of his base, powerful, etc. His party rode his coatails to victory after victory too...

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
62. Is rounding up citizens and placing them into camps liberal?
How about putting together a program to create the deadliest weapon known to man?
Getting us into a global war, in spite of laws forbidding it?
Price-fixing and elimination of anti-trust law?
Turning the US into a global arms dealer?

FDR has some rough spots that seem to get forgotten.
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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #62
81. Not forgotten at all
- on the contrary very well remembered, and with the sole exception of one of your points, considered to be praise-worthy.

Although FDR's aquiescence in the decision to intern hundreds of thousands of Japanese-American citizens was one of the few truly regretable decisions that he made over the course of his presidency (he made the decisions out of highly cold-blooded political considerations) and a blot on his legacy, the other "rough spots" that you seem to imply ought to be used to criticize the 32nd President can on the contrary be pointed to as points on which he certainly made the right decision.

What you describe as "turning the US into a global arms dealer" and "getting us into an illegal war", can alternatively be described as a courageous course action that saved the world as a whole just as surely as Lincoln saved the Union in the 19th Century. I don't think that anybody today could seriously argue otherwise than that Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime were a mad dog that had to be put down, the Empire of Japan was really not much better, and if FDR had not acted to keep Great Britain, Soviet Russia, and Nationalist China alive and fighting by means of Leand-Lease and other programs through which he made America into the "Great Arsenal of Democracy", then there is a real and frightening possibility that both of these despicable regimes could have been the victors of the Second World War. As it was, FDR's actions in supplying the UK and USSR and helping them to build their wartime economies prevented Hitler from achieving his goals, and his machinations aimed at bringing the US into the conflict, illegal or no, enabled these regimes to be destroyed, and something far more positive to be installed in their place.

A side-benefit of bringing America into WWII was that it enabled FDR to completely bring American out of the Great Depression through the levels of deficit spending and economic regulatory powers that positively dwarfed the resources he had been able to draw on throughout the 1930s. Easing some of the anti-Trust tendancies of the First, Second, and Third New Deals, and the introduction of such controversial measures as Wage and Price Controls, might have been a bitter pill for some to swallow, but they were vital parts of the economic policies, dubbed the "Fourth New Deal" by some historians that enabled to president to oversee the transformation of the American economy from a state in which it continued to struggle to throw of the remnants of the Great Depression, into a thrumming economic powerhouse the likes of which the world had never seen before, whose industrial output was one of the key factors in the outcome of WWII.

As for the role that FDR played in giving the go-ahead for the Manhattan Project, although it is very hard to see the development of the Atomic Bomb as a positive development in human history, considering the context it is very hard to see what other decisions he should have made. The President fully understood what the scientific and strategic implications of this new technology would be, and he was also very aware of what the consequences might have been if the Nazis or the Japanese had developed the technology first.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
21. Obviously he is compared to that which he ran as.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 08:34 AM by Bluenorthwest
The level of language he indulged in on the trail must have felt great, but I personally expect people to be what they claim to be, for months on end, loud and long. A Fierce Advoctate! We are going to change the world! Then he won, and turned into yet another politident of the US. The language he used, with apparently no intention of living it, was a hugely cynical thing to foist on the voters, and it is only logical that there would be high expectations, for he worked those expectations, built them, created them and used them. Cynical as anything.
You do have a point about comparing Presidents to Presidents, in a way. There have not been many, and several have been really awful, few have been much to write home about. Comparing Presidents to Presidents, all of the mediocrity does look better than if you compare Presidents to others in any other job in the world. Next to your average store manager, all Presidents seem immoral and stuck on stupid.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Most Presidents fail to live up to their campaign rhetoric. Still
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 09:08 AM by ProSense
if you're going to compare the President to his campaign persona, then he's doing quite well by comparison.

CQ: Obama's Winning Streak On Hill Unprecedented

In his first year in office, President Obama did better even than legendary arm-twister Lyndon Johnson in winning congressional votes on issues where he took a position, a Congressional Quarterly study finds.

<...>


The Obameter: Tracking Obama's Campaign Promises

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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Too bad even the "promises kept" are mostly compromises.
For example, #55 ""Large employers that do not offer meaningful coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement."

They MAY have to pay a "fine", but there is no NATIONAL PLAN and no guarantee that their money goes towards HEALTH CARE.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Here's why that opinion really doesn't change anything:
They are still his promises and his achievements.




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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Is an achievement not worth doing still worth crowing about?
Obviously, you think so.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. That is what I dont get- I could have sworn that we just LOST the House.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:38 AM by Dr Fate
Great that we have time to strut around and toot our own horns about how wonderful we must be- but swing voters & moderates did not seem to think so.

Our "far-center" Joe Lieberman/Max Baccus bullshit version of HCR in particular was extremely unpopular with both the DEM base and the electorate- but many DUers are still acting like it is our magic bullet or something.

I think voters are going to see if Obama can fix the current economic situation in a way that they SEE IT and FEEL IT.

This will be the measure, as opposed to some intellectual exercise where swing-voters would consider historical context and compare him to past presidents....
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Any messaging guru would know
that it makes no sense to sell negativity. Losing the House is not the greatest tragedy of our time, and mischaracterizing the health care bill isn't going to win it back.

"Our "far-center" Joe Lieberman/Max Baccus bullshit version of HCR in particular was extremely unpopular with both the DEM base and the electorate- but many DUers are still acting like it is our magic bullet or something.

Actually, no.

Now, if only the facts could rise about the noise.




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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. The attempt at "messaging" is the noise.
It would be nice if you ever dealt in real facts and not spin.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. "It would be nice if you ever dealt in real facts and not spin."
I get it: the "real facts" are your opinions, the "spin" is any evidence that runs counter to your opinions.

So be it.

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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Real facts are real facts.
Twisting those facts to fit what you WANT it to be, instead of what it IS... that be spin.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Can you present some?
All you're offering are your opinions.

Most consumer advocacy groups see Wall Street reform, which you claim wasn't worth it, as progress.

Consumers Union

Not every reform that everyone wanted got in the final bill, but analysts are saying if these reforms were in place two years ago, our economy would not have suffered as it did. Here are just some of the major provisions in the financial reform bill:

New Consumer Financial Protection Bureau: This watchdog would oversee the financial products we all deal with – mortgages, credit cards, checking accounts, payday loans and more. It’s the first time consumers will have a single advocate on our side, with the power to make and enforce rules to prevent scams and rip-offs. States can go even farther in protecting residents if they desire.

<...>


Public Citizen

The U.S. House of Representatives took a welcome step late Wednesday when it passed the conference report on the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. The Senate is expected to take up the conference report soon, likely sending the legislation to President Barack Obama the week of July 12.

Enactment of this bill would be a significant, initial victory for Main Street over Wall Street - and one that Congress should expand on soon. It contains several important elements. The two most notable are substantially stronger consumer financial protections and curbs on some of the worst practices in the derivatives markets.

<...>


Public Interest Research Groups

On June 30, the House of Representatives approved the conference report on the Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, HR 4173.

The bill reins in Wall Street and protects consumers, investors, and taxpayers from further financial meltdowns. The legislation is expected to be considered in the Senate immediately following the July Fourth recess, due to memorial services this week for the late Senator Robert C. Byrd.

The PIRG-backed bill reins in the casino economy created by the Wall Street banks, protects consumers and small investors from unfair and predatory practices, enhances regulatory authority over shadow markets, eliminates conflicts of interest and imposes capital, leverage and other requirements on the financial marketplace that will help guarantee that taxpayers will never again be asked to bail out the big banks and other financial firms.

<...>


Center for Media and Democracy

Everyone in America remembers the summer of 2008 when gas prices rose to over $4.00 a gallon. The puzzling price spike caused hardship for many Americans, but it had a disproportionate impact on farmers given that energy costs are one of farmers' biggest costs of doing business. A repeat of this scenario not only threatens consumer pocketbooks and farm livelihoods, but could be a serious setback to an already slow economic recovery.

That possibility just became much more remote due to some last-minute maneuvers involving the Wall Street reform bill slated to be voted on in Congress this week. The derivatives chapter of the bill specifically cracks down on the energy and food commodity speculation that elevates the cost of farming and socks it to consumers.

<...>


Consumer Federation of America

Washington, DC – Today, the Consumer Federation of America applauded the passage by the U.S. House of Representatives of landmark pro-consumer and pro-investor provisions in the Dodd-Frank financial regulatory reform bill.

“The American people won big today, despite the throng of Wall Street and bank industry lobbyists who descended on Capitol Hill to block financial reform,” said Travis Plunkett, CFA’s Legislative Director. “This historic legislation provides a sweeping overhaul of federal financial regulations that should help protect consumers and the economy for decades to come.”

The bill creates the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to provide transparency and fairness for consumers when they take out a loan, use a credit card, or get a mortgage. “Consumers finally will have an independent watchdog to monitor the market and write and enforce the rules,” said Susan Weinstock, CFA’s Financial Reform Campaign Director. “The Bureau will focus on protecting consumers by ridding the market of the tricks and traps that have ensnared so many Americans.”

<...>




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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. *SIGH*
Again, the few good things in the bill didn't address THE PROBLEM.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/188551

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Hmmm? Who to believe
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Taibbi - No question.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. So
then you agree:

It's not that there's nothing good in the bill. In fact, there are many good things in it, even some historic things. Sen. Bernie Sanders and others won a fight to allow Congress to audit the Fed's books for the first time ever. A new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was created to protect against predatory lending and other abuses. New lending standards will be employed in the mortgage industry; no more meth addicts buying mansions with credit cards. And in perhaps the biggest win of all, there will be new rules forcing some varieties of derivatives – the arcane instruments that Warren Buffett called "financial weapons of mass destruction" – to be traded and cleared on open exchanges, pushing what had been a completely opaque market into the light of day for the first time.


I'd say those were worth it. You?

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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. No.
Ignoring the actual problem, negates the good things in it, because it won't matter when the economy collapses.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. What's the actual problem?
This was an actual problem, solved:

And in perhaps the biggest win of all, there will be new rules forcing some varieties of derivatives – the arcane instruments that Warren Buffett called "financial weapons of mass destruction" – to be traded and cleared on open exchanges, pushing what had been a completely opaque market into the light of day for the first time.


The financial world is huge, the actual problems are varied. The bill didn't solve every problem, but it solved many.

The problem with the argument that the bill represents "ignoring the actual problem" is how does this represent a failure on the part of this President as he moved to address the problems, making significant strides in the right direction.

That is the point of this OP. The argument that something didn't go far enough, when nothing was the alternative and no one else even attempted to address the problems, doesn't negate that point.



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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. The actual problem is that the problems have been ignored.
"And in perhaps the biggest win of all, there will be new rules forcing SOME varieties of derivatives " SOME. THAT is the problem. Companies that have a death grip on our economy are still able to trade trillions in risky ventures with no oversight and no fear of actual consequences.

Worse, every time someone declares that this is a HUGE victory... we really see the actual problem. People who have no interest in actually SOLVING problems, but instead cheering for a particular side as if who wins is more important than real solutions being found. I would happily vote for someone with an (R) (I) (MARTIAN) next to their name if they actually addressed the problems.

Financial reform was, at best, the tiniest of steps in the right direction, but when it is constantly touted as a great victory, it becomes a huge failure, because it set the end point of the argument for too many years to come.

We have made the same mistake now 3-4 times, each time with more severe consequences and we have yet to actually address the underlying problem.

Democrats' dallying on this issue only serves to make the next crash worse than the previous.





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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. You told us how wonderful and popular far-center HCR was before the midterms too.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 01:08 PM by Dr Fate
Keep on telling it.

I think voters are going to see if Obama can fix the current economic situation in a way that they SEE IT and FEEL IT.

This will be the measure, as opposed to some intellectual exercise where swing-voters would consider historical context and compare him to past presidents....
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. Was the consumer bureau worth doing?
Was this and this?

How about this and this, worth doing?

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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Not really.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 12:02 PM by Milo_Bloom
Kinda like a band-aid on a cancerous melanoma. Covers up the sores, while the actual problem fester below.

Due to the needless compromising and ignoring of the REAL problems, the country will be worse off in the long run.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
24. Well said...nt
Sid
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. Print this out and show it to swing voters, moderates & independents.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:16 AM by Dr Fate
Then say to them- "Silly you- now do you understand why you should vote Democratic?"

Seriously- I think most Democrats know that Obama is the best we are going to get for now. Your post seems to be aimed at DEMS who are disenchanted with Obama.

Well, for the most part, DUers & DEM activists went out and voted DEM in 2010. It was the independents, moderates & swing voters who voted against DEMS- and I dont see how comparing Obama to past presidents is going to get them back.

"Vote Obama: Taken in historical context, he is as good or almost as good as several presidents from the past!"

I dunno, not much of a ring to it.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
64. Harper's Magazine compared him to
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:35 PM by ProudDad
Hoover...

Barack Hoover Obama
By Ken Silverstein

"The comparison is not meant to be flippant. It has nothing to do with the received image of Hoover, the dour, round-collared, gerbil-cheeked technocrat who looked on with indifference while the country went to pieces. To understand how dire our situation is now it is necessary to remember that when he was elected president in 1928, Herbert Hoover was widely considered the most capable public figure in the country. Hoover—like Obama—was almost certainly someone gifted with more intelligence, a better education, and a greater range of life experience than FDR. And Hoover, through the first three years of the Depression, was also the man who comprehended better than anyone else what was happening and what needed to be done. And yet he failed."

It is impossible not to wish desperately for his success as he tries to grapple with all that confronts him: a worldwide depression, catastrophic climate change, an unjust and inadequate health-care system, wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the ongoing disgrace of Guant·namo, a floundering education system. Obama’s failure would be unthinkable. And yet the best indications now are that he will fail, because he will be unable—indeed he will refuse—to seize the radical moment at hand.

Every instinct the president has honed, every voice he hears in Washington, every inclination of our political culture urges incrementalism, urges deliberation, if any significant change is to be brought about. The trouble is that we are at one of those rare moments in history when the radical becomes pragmatic, when deliberation and compromise foster disaster. The question is not what can be done but what must be done.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/06/hbc-90005235

...

Rather, the Obama plan is little more than an attempt to stick some new regulatory fingers into a very leaky financial dike, and not rebuild the entire system. Without question, the latter would be more difficult, more contentious and probably more expensive. But it would also have more lasting value.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/business/18nocera.html?_r=2&hp
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Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #64
85. A Roosevelt Obama most certain is not yet. But a Hoover he equally certainly is not
Edited on Thu Nov-18-10 04:06 AM by Axrendale
It is accurate to state that at the time of his election, Herbert Hoover was indeed considered by many to be a highly capable man. This impression however was shown up over the subsequent four years to have been wildly innaccurate - as it became apparent that the man was utterly unsuited temperamentally for the Presidency, and was completly lacking in any sort of positive vision for policy that might have been of extreme help during the onset of the Depression.

My immediate gripe with Ken Silverstein's article is his truly bizarre assertion that Hoover was in any way at all anything even resembling the "man who comprehended better than anyone else what was happening and what needed to be done". To assert that Hoover understood the affliction of the American economy, let alone did so to a greater extent than anyone else, is by itself stretching the bounds of credibility in terms of historical accuracy. But to maintain that he understood in any way at all "what needed to be done" is something that strays beyond the bounds of "far-fetched" and into, forgive me, the realm of ludicrousy.

The sheer inadequacy of President Hoover's response to the onset of the Great Depression lay not only in the lack of any sort of positive response - although that would have been bad enough. The true source of the 31st POTUS's consistent ranking as one of the worst Chief Executives in American history can be found however, in the roundly negative responses that he came up with. Just like James Buchanan in the lead-up to the Civil War, Hoover adopted a series of policies to counter the brewing crisis that not only failed to do anything at all to make things better, but actually made things even worse than they would have been if he had simply refused to do anything meaningful at all.

The high tariffs that Hoover supported can only be viewed as a seriously negative development, and what little money he allowed to be released to try and "prime the pump" of the economy either went directly to large financial interests where it had no helpful effect at all, or was promptly swallowed up by the new taxes that he pushed for as part of the fiscal austerity that he sought to adhere to - which had the effect of taking back whatever limited help his administration had been willing to provide for struggling sections of the markets, and then taking some more into the bargin.

One could write an entire book about the negative nature of Herbert Hoover's economic policies from 1929 - 1932 (and such books are certainly around), but that is to bely the point, which is that the policies of Hoover and his response to the Great Depression bear no resemblance at all to the policies of Obama, who unlike Hoover (but like FDR) clearly possesses a definite understanding of the problems that beset us today, and has worked hard to develop positive policies in response to them that although underrated in many quarters have clearly done a tremendous deal of good (see certain other posts in this thread).

To compare Obama to Hoover implies either the former being grossly underestimated, or the latter being hideously overestimated, probably both.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. Obama bailed out the banksters NOT the People
hardly FDR...
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Safetykitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
33. I agree. His economic policies have kept us from a collapse of the world econonomy.
I think he is a 10 also.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
63. Oh, groan...
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:25 PM by ProudDad
I've never hidden a thread before but I must be careful about my blood sugar level...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Go ahead
hide it.

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Naw. I take it back...
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:37 PM by ProudDad
I just wish you could do a little more analysis and a little less blind cheer-leading...

I think you're really concerned that he do the right thing ... but believing that he already has when he has done so little compared to what he implied/promised he would, will just hurt you...

Alas, he's been a terribly disappointing under-achiever...

I hope he can grow a spine and do better over the next two years... He had such promise...

On edit:

GAK!!! Case in point!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4619381

GOD DAMN, OBAMA! :puke:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. "I just wish you could do a little more analysis and a little less blind cheer-leading..."
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:38 PM by ProSense
You wish there was nothing but anti-Obama posts?

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Nope. If you find something he's done that good for regular working folks
we'd like to hear about it...

(I'll start -- I'm glad they extended unemployment coverage -- Nixon didn't do that for me back in the early 70s depression)

But blind cheer-leading with little or no substance isn't real helpful...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. "we'd"?
Pot?

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
65. Harper's Magazine compared him to
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:35 PM by ProudDad
Hoover...

Barack Hoover Obama
By Ken Silverstein

"The comparison is not meant to be flippant. It has nothing to do with the received image of Hoover, the dour, round-collared, gerbil-cheeked technocrat who looked on with indifference while the country went to pieces. To understand how dire our situation is now it is necessary to remember that when he was elected president in 1928, Herbert Hoover was widely considered the most capable public figure in the country. Hoover—like Obama—was almost certainly someone gifted with more intelligence, a better education, and a greater range of life experience than FDR. And Hoover, through the first three years of the Depression, was also the man who comprehended better than anyone else what was happening and what needed to be done. And yet he failed."

It is impossible not to wish desperately for his success as he tries to grapple with all that confronts him: a worldwide depression, catastrophic climate change, an unjust and inadequate health-care system, wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the ongoing disgrace of Guant·namo, a floundering education system. Obama’s failure would be unthinkable. And yet the best indications now are that he will fail, because he will be unable—indeed he will refuse—to seize the radical moment at hand.

Every instinct the president has honed, every voice he hears in Washington, every inclination of our political culture urges incrementalism, urges deliberation, if any significant change is to be brought about. The trouble is that we are at one of those rare moments in history when the radical becomes pragmatic, when deliberation and compromise foster disaster. The question is not what can be done but what must be done.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/06/hbc-90005235

...

Rather, the Obama plan is little more than an attempt to stick some new regulatory fingers into a very leaky financial dike, and not rebuild the entire system. Without question, the latter would be more difficult, more contentious and probably more expensive. But it would also have more lasting value.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/18/business/18nocera.html?_r=2&hp
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. June 2009?
:rofl:

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Yep, in 2009 the world knew what he should do
and he didn't do it...

:mad:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Yes, his Presidency was a failure four months in.
:rofl:

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Read the article...
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:50 PM by ProudDad
It detailed how quickly he went down the wrong (Hoover-like) path by continuing bush policies and policy makers to save the big banks while leaving regular folks to get fucked...

When he could have followed the lead of FDR instead but didn't have the cajones...or the character...or maybe, he just never thought of it...didn't have the imagination...

And picked the wrong (Goldman Sachs/bush II) people to "advise" him...

And by June of 2009 that was pretty apparent too...

But, hell, he's still got 2 years -- maybe he'll get wise...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. No thanks.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 11:51 PM by ProSense
Year-and-a-half-old fantasies give me gas.

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Computer Glitch self delete...
Edited on Thu Nov-18-10 12:11 AM by ProudDad
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Axrendale Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #65
86. As was said to this post previously:
Edited on Thu Nov-18-10 04:11 AM by Axrendale
It is accurate to state that at the time of his election, Herbert Hoover was indeed considered by many to be a highly capable man. This impression however was shown up over the subsequent four years to have been wildly innaccurate - as it became apparent that the man was utterly unsuited temperamentally for the Presidency, and was completly lacking in any sort of positive vision for policy that might have been of extreme help during the onset of the Depression.

My immediate gripe with Ken Silverstein's article is his truly bizarre assertion that Hoover was in any way at all anything even resembling the "man who comprehended better than anyone else what was happening and what needed to be done". To assert that Hoover understood the affliction of the American economy, let alone did so to a greater extent than anyone else, is by itself stretching the bounds of credibility in terms of historical accuracy. But to maintain that he understood in any way at all "what needed to be done" is something that strays beyond the bounds of "far-fetched" and into, forgive me, the realm of ludicrousy.

The sheer inadequacy of President Hoover's response to the onset of the Great Depression lay not only in the lack of any sort of positive response - although that would have been bad enough. The true source of the 31st POTUS's consistent ranking as one of the worst Chief Executives in American history can be found however, in the roundly negative responses that he came up with. Just like James Buchanan in the lead-up to the Civil War, Hoover adopted a series of policies to counter the brewing crisis that not only failed to do anything at all to make things better, but actually made things even worse than they would have been if he had simply refused to do anything meaningful at all.

The high tariffs that Hoover supported can only be viewed as a seriously negative development, and what little money he allowed to be released to try and "prime the pump" of the economy either went directly to large financial interests where it had no helpful effect at all, or was promptly swallowed up by the new taxes that he pushed for as part of the fiscal austerity that he sought to adhere to - which had the effect of taking back whatever limited help his administration had been willing to provide for struggling sections of the markets, and then taking some more into the bargin.

One could write an entire book about the negative nature of Herbert Hoover's economic policies from 1929 - 1932 (and such books are certainly around), but that is to bely the point, which is that the policies of Hoover and his response to the Great Depression bear no resemblance at all to the policies of Obama, who unlike Hoover (but like FDR) clearly possesses a definite understanding of the problems that beset us today, and has worked hard to develop positive policies in response to them that although underrated in many quarters have clearly done a tremendous deal of good (see certain other posts in this thread).

To compare Obama to Hoover implies either the former being grossly underestimated, or the latter being hideously overestimated, probably both.
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LittleBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
68. He failed his own standard.
Hope? Nope.
Change? Compared to Bush? Sure. Compared to Washington? Hahaha!
A healthcare plan without Hillary's mandates? His plan is a mandate.
Wall Street reform? Don't make me laugh.


The standard that he failed was set by none other than Obama himself.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
91. Below is a link to hundreds of President Obama's Accomplishments
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 02:12 AM by Tx4obama
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Tippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
92. K&R.....
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