Vabby and the Frenchman....hmmm it should be a film.

[vaberella]

Well this is a part two of my experience as an American, talking to a Frenchman who likes America, loves Obama and seems to know more about our politics, the drama the President deals with on a regular basis, and our own domestic an international moves than even American's themselves.


Sad, really.

I'm posting this for two reasons. 1) because someone on the first thread, rug, on this topic had a question for me to ask him. (by the way I seem to take requests---so if interested let me know) :D 2) because I think this guy has some insight and I wanted to share.

First post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8737896

Okay. Now let me give a bit of background on this guy. By the way he says, "Hi." to DU, when I told him I posted on our conversation. His name is Mohammed, he was born in Algeria (most definitely French descent---we talked about Camus and the war since that was his era as a child). He left around the age of 16 or 18, he says he traveled (because he loves traveling and meeting new people) most of the world----he lived and worked in Canada (Ontario, Toronto and London) for 3-5 years. This is why I wondered why his English was so good. He has friends in New York and he's trekked across the US from San Francisco, to Washington, to Alaska, and the Rockies. He seems to take a vacation to the States maybe once every 2 or so years. We got to talking because he works at the community center where my kid (I'm an au pair) takes Karate. I have no idea how he figured I was American, but whatever. He's lived in France now for about 18 or so years he says. I believe he's in his 50s or 60s or so.

Anyway rug wanted to know his views on Afghanistan (check post # 9). It's a good thing I have a great memory and I sat here mulling over the conversation for a few days. Anyway I did ask his thoughts on Afghanistan. Should Obama send in more troops? What numbers? What does he think about it politically? His simplest answer?! I'm sure some of you could guess. He said, "If Obama can, he needs to get rid of Karzai and the corrupt government." If he can't, he needs to work beyond him. Interesting perspective there. He said he would support a troop increase into Afghanistan if only to try to bring stability, but he also said, "You need to pay the people not the government. Stop funding the government because they don't give it to the people. They split it amongst themselves leaving the people to do one of two things, join a mafia or join the drug cartel that gives them money." This idea is nothing new...if I remember correctly, we were giving money to the insurgents in Iraq, which in some cases, worked in our favor. Link and excerpt below:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2008-06-22-ieds_N.htm

Among the new U.S. tactics, paying the Sons of Iraq is a particularly good investment, said Dakota Wood, a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. Whether the money is viewed as "buying off" insurgents is less important than the lull in violence it creates, Wood said. It's almost impossible to rebuild infrastructure, foster commerce and set up elections when streets are unsafe, he said. "Any effort that creates a window of opportunity in which other stabilization actions can take root is a good thing."

To get back to the idea of a mafia. I was a bit confused on this and didn't bother going down this road or some reason. I'm not sure if there is an Afghanistan mafia, or if he's referring to Al-Qaueda or Taliban, or it's directly in relation to drugs. But it's no matter because he says, "By paying the money directly to the people you can gain their trust and loyalty (or try too)and it would help with stabilization." I know a few people will disagree and that's cool. It's up for debate because the question is ultimately what do we want to achieve there? I personally don't want another Grenada and Pakistan of the 80s post Reagan, it's not cool since we really instigated the mess into the crap it is now. Nor do I want our troops there now or indefinitely. I really don't think ANYONE has the right idea on how to approach this problem Bush gave us. Anyway he did say increase troops by a few thousand but not 40,000. No where near there---he said around 1000-3000. He says, "The people want economic development because they have a government sucking them dry and they need social development like jobs, schools, hospitals." I did mention insurgents and he said the paying off and gaining the trust of the people with funds. But again he said, the real problem is the corrupt government.


That's about it on Afghanistan. Now this second part does two things. It calls out a post from another thread and one important part of our conversation. It relates to this thread "A prophet is not without honor save in his own country." (China town-hall photos) linked here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x3785

This is not calling out in a bad way...but I wanted to make something clear based on a perspective of a foreigner---non-American by using the exact words of this man I spoke too which, if we see the popularity of Obama all over the world, may have more meaning than we realize. More meaning than we comprehend in our little part of the world in the States versus his significance to the world.

I'm sure other posters said other things, but I'm just looking at two posts...1) I did not elect a prophet, I elected a president (post #1), 2) Nor did I. Don't like the fawning, rock-star worship either. nt (post.#21).

Now this is not in anyway to lambast the posters or argue their perspective. Everyone has a right to their opinion. However, the tone of the posts struck me. It was a sort of "I, I, I or me, me, me..." Sort of language. This has nothing to do with Obama's historical importance, ie by the amount he won, the fact he is biracial, considers himself Black, lived in Indonesia and has Asian family members----those are besides the point. It's he idea that our vote is for ourselves.

Yes, those of us who voted for Obama and believe in him and support him. Believe he's made change and promised changed and is trying to undo the man who aided in making this nation unsafe nationally, economically, internationally, and so forth. But additionally he's even going to try to undo damage that goes as far as 30 years in the making. So yes we chose a President not a Prophet. I also, have to agree that something about the "prophet", "messiah" thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure if it has to do with the way the Right-Wing used it to try to destroy him, the highly religious overtones used for a pubic official, or this idea that Obama is omniscient or invincible----maybe it's a little of them all. However I see the view point and respect it.


However, the world doesn't see it that way. In the words of the man I was speaking with...word for word, ""The world voted for Obama more than Americans." <----that statement struck me. He even said, "For us he's the messiah." <---That struck me. He was saying that Bush to them was a madman and pulled not only Americans but also the world into a needless war. Obama is the one they hope would take them out. Further more he said, everyone in Europe wants their leaders to follow in his footsteps. He is the model because they find their own lacking. He said Obama's inspirational speeches spoke to the core of Europe and the worst of the world more than Americans can ever imagine. They believed that he respected both Muslims and Jews while being a Christian. They believe that he would end wars, and due to the economic collapse help others, they believe that he wants peace and he's providing leadership. He said to them, he's a WORLD LEADER. He's not just the President of the United States, even though we (American Citizens) voted for him as President. But around the world he is their President as well.


This puts a new twist to how some of us may look at Obama and what the rest of the world may think post Bush. I know, and I've said this in the past, when Bush was President the rest of the world hated us. I was living in England at the time and it was not a nice place for an American. We were seen, ALL OF US (no matter how liberal you think yourself), as stupid, warmongers, an asinine. Bush represented us as a WHOLE. When they saw him, they saw the American people. I was fine mind you, but there were times I was more so Haitian before American. With Obama's Presidency---he's our representation and because he marks a new era, someone who is respectful of others and other cultures (and doesn't have this your with us and if you're not--then you're against us mentality). As though the world is based on some sense of equality that was lost for the last 30 years, post Carter where America rammed it's way through things.


We saw Obama's campaign promises as things he would do for us. However, the world saw it as promises he would keep for them as well. I think some of us may get that, even the posters above. However, I don't know how far it's sunk in and how important this is idea is. For example, every single speech and word Obama as uttered is in paperback in countries all over Europe. And these books are being remade over and over again in different languages and updated when he makes another one.

http://www.amazon.com/Barack-Maureen-Harrison-Gilbert-Editors/dp/1880780291

In what time in history has ANY living President in the US ever had their speeches published and new editions come out regularly in various languages around the world?! This is something to take note and seriously look at. (In Japan he's paticularly famous. From toys (and I know a few posters bought those), to his speeches, to his last name which is a town in Japan, and his East Asian family members).

While some of us may be tired of the "hero-worship" or "rock-star" reception or even the "messiah" one, which I find particularly disturbing. There is no way we can deny the fact that as many of us liberals have vested interests in Obama, the rest of the world does also. They relate to him, connect with him, than anyone else. His multiculturalism alone is something so awe inspiring it's blinding. He connects Europe to Africa to Asia (just by his family line) alone and depicts the multiculturalism of what makes America, America and makes us so great. Sure we have loony tunes that hate the idea, but seriously we're a nation of immigrants under one title. Obama exemplifies this. Obama is a "when in Rome, do as the Romans," While Bush and most of our other Presidents and people are like "When in Rome, keep it 100% Americana." That's not working WITH people, that's denying these people by denying certain aspects of their culture.


So while for some the world is full of Obama fangirls and boys (which I'm a proud member of--so is my Frenchman) there is a valid reason. They appreciate him, even though it looks like hero worship, even more than we do. I think we can't lose sight of this. This Presidency in the end wasn't just about me, you, us, and the US...but ultimately the world. They love him, while some of us are like---"weird"----I don't know if I can blame them. He's setting the pace and it seems the rest of the world leaders have to follow suit. And the world wants it. Our president nor us can be unilateral. We can't declare ourselves Big Brother----like during the Clinton era (of course this could have been during the Reagan era or before---but I remember it during Clinton). When we declared ourselves that---is a thing in the past. The world has now declared who they want to lead----and it's Obama.


Edited: for spelling errors

[Clio the Leo]

1. As he visits each foreign country......

.... and I see the reactions there, I jokingly think to myself, "well, he'll carry Singapore in 2012," or "he's got Japan locked up. No need for the GOP to open an office in Tokyo."

Nice post btw. ;)

[dalaigh lllama]

2. I've heard that quote about the prophet receiving no honor in his own country

used metaphorically before in reference to famous folks -- not just in a religious sense. I think sometimes ours nerves have been rubbed so raw by all the "messiah" silliness during the primaries and the RW fundies in general that we just feel a need to avoid using literary allusions with any religious connotation whatsoever.

Really enjoy reading the view from across the pond. Thanks.

[vaberella]

4. No problem. I figured some people might be interested.

He's an interesting guy.

[Cha]

3. I just

feel so fortunate that we have President Obama and everything that it entails and that includes your Frenchman knowing all there is to know about the American President.

Now, if we could only have a "media" that we could be proud of.

Thanks for the update on your French connection, vaberella~

[vaberella]

5. No problem.

This guy seems to be aware of our mainstream media and what it's doing to the President. When he told me two weeks ago that people need to lay off Obama and give him the years he needs to get things done----I got the feeling that this issue is a major topic in French politics. Actually the close Sarkozy seems to Obama the more Obama is ingrained in the politics. I was watching a meeting between the President of Brazil and Sarkozy this Saturday and they made it a point of saying that we look to Obama and the US to help us achieve some specific goal. I came towards the end. I was a bit surprised by this. Normally when nation leaders meet they speak of what they will do for each other---However in this case Sarkozy injected Obama's name and the US. This is why I'm seeing more and more something specifically different in this President than others---he's basically running the show or setting the path for other world leaders.

[Cha]

6. And, a further

thanks! I find all this international inside knowledge fascinating.

It is different but not too surprising..after bushcheney the whole world was in trouble and our rw media is whining that PO keeps mentioning what a mess he's cleaning up while they're busy promoting the likes of a deadender, palin.

If Obama didn't talk about it..it would go down the memory hole.

He's world organizer now, baby!