FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

[Barrymores Ghost]

On edit: to remove each previously affixed asterix.

If this Democratic majority Congress and this Democratic President attempt to post up some watered-down, non-public-option health care "reform plan" and call it a "victory," I will make it my personal life's mission - aside from my family and my job - to defeat every single one of them at the mid-term and general election. And I couldn't care less if a house cat or a houseplant is their opponent.

I coughed up more money than my family could afford in support of Barack Obama's presidential campaign and caucused for him. I supported countless out-of-state senatorial and congressional top-running candidates. That fucking ends now.

If these clowns fuck this up, I'm going Green down the fucking line.

FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

[MadBadger]

1. It will just come back to hurt you in a few years.

[EFerrari]

5. Right. Like no one is hurting now.

[MadBadger]

8. Hurt a lot more come 2011

[EFerrari]

12. I'd say 2010 at this rate.

Sorry, MadBadger. I don't know if it's just me or what but grumpy, you bet.

[MadBadger]

15. Democrats are by no means perfect

But if we all did like the OP Wants in working our hardest for their defeat if they put up a watered down health care bill, than we'd be hurting even more in years to come.

I understand and sympathize with the anger, but working to defeat the dems will just hurt more in the end.

And you dont seem too grumpy to me.

[TheBigotBasher]

83. So the solution to ConservaDems

is more Republicans?

Weird.

[backscatter712]

2. In other words, you'll give Congress & the Presidency to the teabaggers.

BRILLIANT!!!

[Clio the Leo]

4. No, it will mean he'll BECOME a teabagger...

.... which is worse. lol

[jefferson_dem]

17. Greens and Teabaggers Unite.

What an ugly sordid bunch that will be. :puke:

[Barrymores Ghost]

23. I'll infiltrate Tea-Bagging events in a way that makes sense...

...per Thom Hartmann, if you happened to be listening.

But the DNC gets not one goddamned more dime or vote from me until the Dems prove that they can behave like the majority party with an agenda built upon something other than sucking up to the insurance lobby.

My vote won't mean shit to anyone but me. At least I'll be able to sleep at night.

[Clio the Leo]

33. Yeah that's what all of the Nader voters thought in 2000. NT

[Barrymores Ghost]

40. You're obviously not a listener of Thom Hartman's.

But thanks for tossing in that meaningless Nader crack for laughs, just the same.

I found myself despising Ralph Nader for the same reasons. Eight years ago. Then I grew up, woke up, and smelled the coffee.

You should give it a shot.

[salguine]

63. They seem to be running the show now anyway, Einstein.

[Barrymores Ghost]

70. SNAP. n/t

[Dinger]

3. Righteous Rant My Friend

Same here by the way, and K & R:patriot:

[Barrymores Ghost]

67. Cheers. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

6. Instant Reactionary Brigade

is rushing over here...


Heads exploding without any real tangible information
beyond rumblings. Now see, that's what is scary! :scared:

[DeadEyeDyck]

18. that link is so apropo...

thanks

[PurityOfEssence]

27. Um...reactionaries are conservatives; this is a lefty

Try to keep your slurs straight.

[Barrymores Ghost]

28. Thanks. (n/t)

[Barrymores Ghost]

71. Wow. Just wow.

Instant Reactionary Brigade Cautionary Squad Seen Reacting Instantly Without Absorbing OP.

Thanks, FC. From someone's who gotten your back more than a time or two, I expected less knee-jerkism. Have a nice night.

[gateley]

7. Let's wait and see -- Even Bernie Sanders doesn't know what's really happening

at this moment...

[FrenchieCat]

11. He knows more than us.

He wasn't acting like he was totally clueless.

He was quite encouraged actually.

Not saying that means anything,
but you are making seem like Sanders had no clue when he was on rachel,
and I wouldn't quite go that far. :shrug:

[gateley]

54. Oh - that wasn't my intent at all. Rather since nothing is certain yet there's no

reason for people to become pissed or disappointed. That's what I was trying to imply, but obviously fell way short.

[NightWatcher]

9. I'm not going to vote against them. I'm not going to do anything

Last year I, too, donated more than I could afford. I also canvassed for Dems, called for Dems (in other freakin states, and worked for them.

So, in 2010 and 12, I may vote or not, but I wont be working for them.

There will be no movement in 2010 or 12 like the one that got Obama and the others in office. 60 Senate Dems? Ha, they'll be lucky to keep a majority.

[FormerDittoHead]

78. +1. Why give them money anymore? Seems the corps are happy to finance them too... n/t

[jefferson_dem]

10. Buh bye.

:hi:

[DeadEyeDyck]

21. wha duz that mean?

[Barrymores Ghost]

26. Right.

So, I'm a troll now?

I've been here for years, given bucks to support DU, and have backed you up in a conversation or two, and now I'm a troll?

Wow.

[jefferson_dem]

35. With all due respect, I never suggested you were a troll.

Seems you outed yourself.

If you carry out your threat - and not only leave the party but actively work against it - if you're not happy with this particular policy outcome.

...just go.

I've got no time for that shit.

[Barrymores Ghost]

36. You apparently have the time to banter about what you have or have not time for.

And "Buh-bye" generally means someone's hoping for a pizza delivery.

This is the defining issue of this presidency to date. If you can't recognize the folly in not adopting an LBJ-style deal-making posture at this juncture and getting this shit the fuck done, then I question YOUR reasons for being a Democrat.

Catch my drift, Slappy?

[jefferson_dem]

42. You declared (with great drama) that you were leaving. I provided a nice salutation on your way out.

Now you doth protest too much about pizza. That's curious.

Oh take your simple-minded purity test with you when you do go.

Again... "buh bye". :hi:

[Barrymores Ghost]

44. Seriously?

Are you for real?

You may want to re-check my back-posts.

Then, you may want to have another drink.

[jefferson_dem]

50. Seriously.

I'm sure you have stellar credentials as a loyal Democrat. If all that ends because you don't get your public option, so be it. But don't get all flabbergasted when a fellow DUer calls you out for comments like this below.

If this Democratic majority Congress and this Democratic President attempt to post up some watered-down, non-public-option health care "reform plan" and call it a "victory," I will make it my personal life's mission - aside from my family and my job - to defeat every single one of them at the mid-term and general election. And I couldn't care less if a house cat or a houseplant is their opponent.

Tell me how that is not against DU rules, let alone violative of sheer political sensibility.

[Barrymores Ghost]

65. Hmmm...

You seemed to be projecting, here. I'm not threatening to leave DU. Nor am I advocating the overthrow of Democrats by Republicans or even Libertarians. I am, however, calling upon Democrat incumbents to man the fuck up or lose my vote and wallet. That, to me, means putting real progressives into office, or die trying.

So, pardon my naïveté, but please enlighten me as to how this violates DU forum policy. As for "political sensibility," if I'm being ignored or totally hosed by people in the majority to whom I've sent my money and/or vote, and if I elect to give someone else a shot who shares my "political sensibilities" beyond, apparently, what it takes to get them dialed into the corporate financing machine, please tell me where I'm being violative.

Again, thanks for shining a light on my misplaced disappointment.

Cheers.

[jefferson_dem]

72. Now you're dialing your outrage back a bit.

In the OP, you say "I will make it my personal life's mission - aside from my family and my job - to defeat every single one of them at the mid-term and general election." That's what I was responding to.

Yes, it's against the DU rules to openly lobby for defeat of Democratic candidates. To quote: "Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office." http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

The sensibility issue is my opinion. Fact is, we have a two-party system. Pick a side, the lesser of evils if need be. To abstain or vote third party because neither party measures up to your standards is to throw your vote away at the very least or enable the worst of the worst. But i'm sure you don't agree with that sentiment...as you defend Nader in the post above.

[HillGal]

13. Breaking: Democratic senators announce tentative deal to drop government-run insurance option in hea

Breaking: Democratic senators announce tentative deal to drop government-run insurance option in health bill

http://www.rgj.com/article/20091208/NEWS12/91208062&OAS_sitepage=news.rgj.com%2Fbreakingnews

WASHINGTON (AP) — Democratic senators say they have a tentative deal to drop a government-run insurance option from health care legislation.

No further details were immediately available.

But liberals and moderates have been discussing an alternative, including a private insurance arrangement to be supervised by the federal agency that oversees the system through which lawmakers purchase coverage.

Additionally, talks centered on opening up Medicare to uninsured Americans beginning at age 55, a significant expansion of the large government health care program that currently serves the over-65 population.

Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa told reporters he didn't like the agreement but would support it to the hilt in an attempt to pass health care legislation.

Details to follow on RGJ.com.

[jefferson_dem]

19. Yeah, we know.

Does this concern you?

[HillGal]

24. To say I'm shocked would be an understatement. NT

[rateyes]

14. I'll be in front of you on my way out, too.

Democrats have taken progressive votes for granted for years. The country is fucked. It might as well get fucked by real Republicans than Republican-lites.

[ZombieHorde]

16. Why are you putting "*" in your words?

[Barrymores Ghost]

25. In case kids might be watching?

I dunno. Just thought I'd try to be a gent for the ladies in the room.

[ZombieHorde]

30. Hiding the words' private parts?

I am being silly with you, I have seen other people do similar things with swear words.

I just don't understand why the "*" makes them more acceptable.

[Barrymores Ghost]

32. Good point.

Fuck it.

[ZombieHorde]

49. Now your post is a little too obscene for me. (just kidding) nt

[eleny]

20. I sincerely hope that something good comes out of this for your family

When I hear the possibility of a lowered age for Medicare, I feel good for myself and husband. But the vast middle who are working and with families - it's disheartening. You want the best for your kids and need the funds to stay above the water line. And what about college for the kids?

Right now, we don't know what will come out of the room where conservative Dems wield way too much power. I'm hoping the best for you because what's good for the vast middle is absolutely good for the country.

[Barrymores Ghost]

31. I have a great job in public higher ed.

I can afford my insurance, for my entire family, without a problem. My concern is for others who don't have that luxury.

But, I guess from some comments that this makes me an anti-Obama Freep troll.

[eleny]

37. Oh, just ignore them

Your not a freep troll. Given Karzai's "15 year" bombshell statement, today is not a good day for the faithful. Well, just about every day brings new nightmare material.

...Well, I guess the meeting is over and only uninsured people over age 55 might be able to buy-in to Medicare. That leaves me and hubs out of the picture. We had good jobs working for the state and have decent health insurance. But it's pricey. In fact, premiums went up 30% this month. so I was hoping it would be an option for everyone over 55. One step forward five steps back. The only ones taking giant scissor steps forward are the insurance companies.

[kelly1mm]

41. Can you and your husband afford the $100, $400, $800, $xxxx "buy-in"

premium for medicare per month, each? We need MANY more details before we offer our support for this or else it will be just like the "no denial of coverage for pre-existing coverage" Yeah, right? Well not if the monthly premiums have no cap.

[eleny]

51. Mute point for me right now...

Looks like eligibility will be for people over 55 and without health insurance. We have coverage from our retirement association.

The thing is I'll have to afford several hundred dollars to receive Medicare in two years when I turn 65. I only have 20 quarters of employment within the system. When I worked for the state we were exempt from paying into Social Security.

If I were 65 right now I'd have to pay somewhere around $300 a month for coverage. And I'd have no choice if I wanted both Part A & Part B Medicare plus a supplemental coverage. But the deductibles are so reasonable that over the year it's a better deal than what I pay out now. If I could switch right now it would be a very good deal.

You're right about needing more info about the deal that was reached tonight. It doesn't look good to me so far - and not just because I don't qualify. I'm entirely skeptical.

[kelly1mm]

55. More details will allow us to determine if this is good for the

country and not just each of us individually.

BTW it is "Moot" not Mute.
:)

[eleny]

58. LOL - thanks for the spelling lesson!

And I agree with you about a plan that will be good for everyone. I'm a proponent of Medicare for all. But as information gets out to us and seems to fit our individual situation, you can't ignore it. Frankly, I waited in anticipation but also wondered what detail would leave us out. So I'm not surprised. Each day brings another load of crap.

[ClarkUSA]

22. Has the Democratic Party always had a Whiny Ass Diva Wing or is it just since Obama took office?

:shrug:

[amandabeech]

39. Democrats have never been a unified, lock step party like the Pugs.

Never.

I've nearly walked out on my party, or claimed that it walked out on me, more times than I can count in my 54 years.

However, since Clinton's victory in '92, the party seems to have dumped the working person and the poor person to a shocking extent. These are the people who used to be a major force in the Democratic coalition.

Now, they've been kicked under the bus for the folks with money on the coasts, and that includes the North Coast from which Obama hails.

I considered myself retired in '92 after Tom Harkin's inability to win primaries with an economic appeal directly to folks who were hurting during that recession, but I came back for Obama.

What happens then? Obama and the Dem Congress give the banksters everything that they want and get nothing in return. Oh, yeah, our return is a crappy, and I mean crappy, insurance bill that takes all the attention away from the even crappier financial reform bill.

I used to think that the Dems were always better than letting the Pugs totally screw things up.

Now I'm wondering if it really matters.

Recession, war, big money. It's all beginning to look the same.

Oh, I know I'll be back, but I'm not complaining about people getting ready to throw in the towel these days.

There's a lot to be angry and disappointed about with what's going on in the party now.

[dflprincess]

75. "..give the banksters everything that they want and get nothing in return"

We're the ones who get nothing. I'm sure "our" elected officials will get their rewards when they leave "public service".

[eleny]

46. Yes - And that wing brought us Social Security and Medicare

Lucky to have such a forward looking, socially conscious bunch of divas. But if poor houses for the elderly are your style, we'll just have to tolerate your kind. Evolution is a long, slow slog. We understand.

[tblue]

56. Damn, I sure hope so.

[Barrymores Ghost]

66. Yeah, and in FDR's day, it was the wing that brought the New Deal.

Your fucking point is...what?

[neshanic still]

29. I am sorry that you are dissapointed. But really the writing was on the wall.

We will have insurance. Mandatory, complex, insane, mindfucking, expensive, Orwellian, but we will get it.

[Jenny_92808]

34. It has been a long tough battle, but

we cannot let the teabaggers win. We need to keep fighting for what is right.

[Dragonfli]

38. So many people I know feel the same way. There is nothing left of the party to fight for

It would be like giving money, votes and time directly to corporations.

I will probably need my donation money to pay the health penalty the party has decided I should pay the IC's because I dare not have the money to pay for a plan with deductibles too high to even use the shitty product.

I have maybe 50 bucks after my bills are paid and groceries are bought each month.
How the hell can I afford a defective product that is guaranteed to raise in price as the profit demands?

So maybe the Government will look me up on a poverty chart based on wages a mouse couldn't live on and decide to pick up all but 500 bucks a month of a high deductable plan. Yippee! $450 less food that month is not an option folks so yeah, don't kid yourselves, many many people like me will be fined by the Democratic party for the crime of being working poor and we will not forget it.

I hate war as well, it should only be used in self defense - so what the fuck do THEY still have to offer ME for my vote, time and contributions?

[Mojambo]

43. They can get my "contribution" directly from the insurance companies

Who they are fucking FORCING me to pay protection money too.

[Barrymores Ghost]

45. BINGO. n/t

[Dinger]

47. Double Bingo!

[WyldRogue]

61. I had made a similar response...

... in one of my replies earlier. If the current elected Dems need campaign/election funds, let them get it from who they truly represent and work for.

Spent waaaaay too much and put in waaaay too much effort to elect Democratic candidate and am getting essentially nothing for my hard earned dime and countless hours of volunteering all for what? Some form of mandated health insurance that will be continuously watered down (dropped meds, procedures) over time like the ICs do already?? AETNA is famous for dropping meds left and right (including those meds that some of their customers desperately need).

Thank you Democratic Majority for fighting sooo hard for me, my family and my friends.

[salguine]

84. You know what I want to know? I'd like to see the feasibility tested of a

class-action lawsuit against the mandatory insurance, on the grounds that it's ridiculous to force people to buy a defective product.

[Honeycombe8]

48. Are you in the under-55 age group? Those 55 and older will be able to sign on to Medicare...

is what I heard reported. That's a type of public option for that group (the group with the biggest health care problem...that is, the group having the most trouble with health problems coupled with inability to get insurance or employment with benefits).

Poor children are already covered under SCHIP.

This leaves younger working families who don't have health care out in the cold.

I am mulling this over. I was originally VERY ticked off, until I heard the Medicare for over-55 part. This might mean the door is open to Medicare for all in the future. This might be better, even, than a so-called weak public option that is not Medicare.

[IndianaGreen]

52. They will have to pay a premium to join Medicare

[Rosa Luxemburg]

59. yes

[kelly1mm]

53. Did you miss the "buy-in" part? How about $800 each per month

for medicare for those 55-64. Still OK with you? It is all in the details which we do not have yet. I'll wait but am seriously skeptical.

[neshanic still]

57. Hello, I'm a UnitedHealthcare exec. Did someone say buy in?

I am SURE the government will make some of you available to us in this plan...uh, I mean as valued health partners of course.

[polichick]

60. imo all real Dems should get this fed up - then the country would have a fighting chance. nt

[neshanic still]

62. It is perversely hysterical. Somehow, the insurance companies...

not only have the mandatory gang, but now will have the pre-Medicare crowd. Which of course they will offer their services to. You will buy into Medicare, but there will be options like Medicare super duper advantage.

So they got everything they wanted and more.

[Zavulon]

64. I wouldn't work to defeat them, but

if we get a bill that forces us under threat of jail time to buy government-approved insurance, I will simply stay home on election days and never again vote for anyone who sided with the bill.

[Barrymores Ghost]

68. Better to send the message by supporting a primary opponent...IMHO. n/t

[Zavulon]

69. Only if I know for sure that the primary opponent opposed that bill.

If not, I'm just voting for more of the same.

[Jakes Progress]

73. Hard not to feel the way you do.

What the any-bill-is-a-good-thing group doesn't get is that in their rush to genuflect to anything that seems to be Obama's idea they are supporting a health care bill that will assure a one term for our guy. The nasty warts of this toad of a bill will just be coming to fruition as the campaign ramps up. How much profit the insurance companies make, how many people are being fined for not being able to buy insurance, how many are out of work because employers use the bill as an excuse to cut staff. All that will be front page stuff. For every little goodie that squeaks in the bill, there are giant errors that will kill us in the election. The very things that the republicans demanded will be used by them to damn the bill. In the naive rush to court their approval, our guy let himself be set up. He could have demanded better. He could have pushed. He could have used better advisors. This corporate wet dream that will be known as Obama's Health Program will come to haunt him just as it will come to ruin us.

[LittleBlue]

74. I'm with you. I'm done with Democrats if they sell us out.

They can find some other dupe who buys their BS, but it won't be me.

[bertman]

76. I send the Democrats my money and give them my time and effort in hopes that they

will represent me--a loyal member of the liberal wing of the party--and my views of what I think our nation should represent.

The Insurance Companies and Pharmaceutical Companies give the Democrats money in hopes that the Democrats will represent THEM and their views of what our nation should represent.

WHO got represented this time? WHO got represented when Hillary Clinton was attempting to get healthcare reform passed?

Most of the time I am finding that the Democratic party BARELY represents me or tries to legislate the way I think they should.

This issue of healthcare reform tells me that the Democrats are more interested in the welfare of the Insurance Companies than they are in the welfare of all Americans.

I hear all of these naysayers warning that we will be worse off if the liberal/progressive wing of the party sits out the next election or two. I think that's bullshit. If we sit out those elections the Democratic party will get the worst ass-whipping it's ever had. Maybe then they will understand that we are not expendable pawns in their game. If they don't grasp that, then a third party might be the option.

I feel your pain, Barrymores Ghost. I'm tired of my vote being taken for granted. The third party option is starting to look better every day.

Rec.

[NYC Liberal]

77. Oh goodie, a threat to "go Green"

Yeah ok. If you're vowing to "defeat every single one of them at the mid-term and general election" - aka Dems - then why in the hell are you wasting your time on a website that not only is dedicated to electing Democrats into office, but has the party's name in it's title! Sheesh.

You don't see me wasting my time going to Freeperland and posting "I'M NEVER VOTING FOR A REPUBLICAN AND I WILL WORK TO DEFEAT EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!!1 " Why? Because I'm not a Republican, I don't like Republicans, so I don't go there!

Similarly, if you want to defeat Democrats and if you want to join another party, then just GO. Sheesh. Nobody is making you (well, until you start breaking the rules and IMHO this post is borderline), but why bother staying?

Quote

If these clowns fuck this up, I'm going Green down the fucking line.

FUCK. THIS. SHIT.

[Barrymores Ghost]

80. I'm talking about supporting progressive challengers in primaries.

I'm not advocating the overthrow of Democrats by Republicans or even Libertarians. I am, however, calling upon Democrat incumbents to man the fuck up or lose my vote and wallet. That, to me, means putting real progressives into office, or die trying. If that means they didn't stand for progressive ideals, to include a strong public option, and if their only primary challenger is a Greenie, then that challenger gets my advocacy.

So, pardon my naïveté, but as I've asked before, please enlighten me as to how this comes close to breaking DU rules. If I'm being ignored or hosed by incumbents who make up a decisive Dem majority (and to whom I've sent my money and/or my vote), and if I elect to give someone else a shot who shares my progressive sensibilities beyond, apparently, what it takes to get them dialed into the corporate financing machine, please tell me where I'm being violative.

Again, thanks for shining a light on my misplaced disappointment.

Cheers.

[NYC Liberal]

81. The Green Party is an entirely separate party.

So, there will be no "primary challengers" to Democrats who are members of the Green Party. Thus if you say you will work to "defeat every single one of them at the mid-term and general election" and you are willing to vote for a Green candidate, that means that you will be voting against the Democrat.

Supporting "progressive challengers" in a primary is one thing, but you said you will work to defeat the Democrat in the general election. And you said you would go "Green down the fucking line." That is the same as saying "I'm going Republican down the fucking line." Not in terms of ideology of the parties or the candidates, but in terms of simple voting. If you're supporting the Green candidate, you are not supporting the Democratic candidate, period. Which is your prerogative.

There's no rule about who you vote for on DU (nobody would know unless you post it), but here's the rule that is relevant to YOUR post:

Quote

Democratic Underground may not be used for political, partisan, or advocacy activity by supporters of any political party or candidate other than the Democratic Party or Democratic candidates.

And in addition, you've now said in the post I'm replying to that a Green Party challenger would get your "advocacy." Well go for it but I doubt it's going to be well-received on DU. It's not my job to enforce rules around here and I wouldn't particularly want to. I'm simply saying that I think you're pushing it with the Green advocacy.

As I said - primary challengers are fine, great even where we need them. But if you want to support Green candidates, all I'm saying is why bother staying at a website that exists to support Democratic candidates?

[treestar]

79. So you expect the Green candidate to defeat the Democratic candidate?

That's ambitious.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

82. Expanding medicare is way better than the public option because once more get a bite everyone will..

want it. This is a massive victory. This takes us to single payer way quicker than the public option would of done, but even that is probably still on the table. I'm actually beginning to love the GOP for dragging out this debate could we in our wildest dreams imagine an expansion of medicare to 55 when this started and Dean behind the scenes is working to increase that over time to all ages. The great thing about this is it passes reconciliation by only being budgetary and reduces the deficit. Politically it's also amazing as the one group most cynical about Pres. Obama is seniors it tells them he's strengthening medicare and adding more funds to it with the buy in.

All this tells us, is change can arrive and we should only take set backs to make us push harder. We definitely are the ones we've been waiting for.