"You know, I believe that marriage is between a man and woman" - candidate Obama

[VMI Dem]

I hope we don't get thoughtful and decisive action on this campaign statement anytime soon.

Then again, I guess it explains the lack of positive action as well.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

1. I am sure many on DU will defend the statement

by saying "This is what he said during the campaign, so why are you surprised now?"

edited for typo

[VMI Dem]

3. Actually, I think lots of people would say "he said that just to get elected"

unlike the warmonger stuff, which he was serious about.

[BR_Parkway]

18. Actually, we (the GLBT) were the original ones refered to as "haters"

now - back when we didn't like McCurkin, or Warren - we got pretty roundly told to sit down, shut up and not spoil it for everyone.

As a group, we were the first to feel the backlash of campaign promises tossed aside for politics - I guess you could say we were the canary in the coalmine.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

20. Yes I remember you were totally right back then n/t

[QC]

44. Yes, I remember when we stood accused of poutrage and ponilessness.

Now just about every other Democrat constituency has gotten the same treatment.

We were pioneers, I guess.

[NJmaverick]

2. Facts matter- Status of Obama's GBLT promises

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/subjects/gays-and-lesbians/

[Hekate]

10. Here's what it says at the link: Matthew Shepard Act done,Employment Non-Discrimination in the works

...Urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality - not yet rated, Call for repeal of DADT - stalled, Support repeal of DOMA - stalled.

The ones rated "stalled" have half a green line and half a red line, meaning there is or was something going on.

Glass half empty?

Hekate

[treestar]

45. That shows the legal part of him

For doing all of that even though he considers marriage to apply only to straight couples.

IOW, doing what is right in spite of what he thinks.

[Oregone]

4. He also promised to renegotiate NAFTA, which he wont...

And the rabid campaign promise crew wont so much as mention that one, much less hold him to it. The whole campaign promise argument grows tired.

[stray cat]

5. And yet people voted for him

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. And I'll vote for him again...

...rather than sit idle for the anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-environment, pro-war Palin types to be elected.

I'll plead guilty as a repeat offender.

[BklnDem75]

6. Nice red meat thread you have here.

Couldn't find enough crap to get enraged about, so you go all the way back to June 2008. Nice flame-bait.

[BeyondGeography]

7. Whatsa matter, has the Afghan trail gone cold?

[treestar]

8. That needs to come from states, though

Or Congress. Why not bug congressman to enact anti-discrimination laws and take other cases to the SCOTUS to argue for a suspect classification? Focusing on the POTUS is least effective.

[Cha]

9. Self delete.

[freddie mertz]

23. He could change the game tomorrow if he wanted to. LBJ did it back in 1964

When he pushed FEDERAL Civil Rights laws and proclaimed, "we shall overcome."

When Gibbs/Obama say this should be "left to the states", they are taking the George Wallace/Strom Thurmond position.

Which is a disgrace.

[treestar]

32. So get it added into the federal civil rights laws as a category

Since those laws are now already there. This takes an Act of Congress.

[msallied]

33. But...but... he's our MESSIAH! He could do ANYTHING if he really wanted to!

*poutrage*

;)

[Starry Messenger]

51. Yes, those whiny minorities are so bothersome aren't they?

Shabby things, puling like urchins. They're probably just addicted to outrage. :sarcasm:

[QC]

54. Just look at them, sitting there in the comfy seat of "perpetual victim." n/t

[Starry Messenger]

56. Meanwhile...

their struggle to gain a few rungs on the ladder of significance has become nothing short of ridiculous.


Don't you hate that?

[QC]

57. But the worst thing is when people have a horrendously bloated sense of entitlement,

and a ginormous chip resting on their shoulder.

I don't know about you, but that's a major turnoff for me.

[Starry Messenger]

58. They're probably just bored and have an axe to grind.

I wish they'd take initiative and responsibility for their own lives.

I know you agree since you're not like one of those people...

[QC]

59. Oh, I'm definitely not like those people.

I would never promote the modern civil rights movement as nothing more a than a playground fight between two petulant schoolgirls.

[Starry Messenger]

60. You know, I'm suddenly wondering...

what kind of a person would do that? Do you think that's the kind of "critical thinking" we need more of around here?

[QC]

61. I think we already have more of that kind of critical thinking than we need.

Apropos of nothing, I just read that people in some places eat dogs and have too many children. Isn't that hilarious!

[Starry Messenger]

62. That's a riot!

I think I read that too! It was about China! When in China, go vegetarian! Har har!

http://inner-cheese.blogspot.com/2006/12/chinas-new-one-dog-policy-there-goes.html

[QC]

64. Those wacky foreigners!

Is there anything they won't do? (Or eat.)

[ruggerson]

55. You just tipped your hand

n/t

[freddie mertz]

77. He could introduce legislation. He could speak out in clear terms.

He chooses not to.

I assume you agree with his position?

[donco6]

67. Yeah, heaven forbid we'd look for some LEADERSHIP.

Oh, and you forgot "Stop picking on OBAMAney!"

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. You can forgive GLBT DUers for having this as a higher priority.

However, for straight Americans opposing gay marriage, I agree - this is not what they should be spending their time, money, and efforts on. As a society, we have too many other important things going on. Just legalize it and move on.

[LastNaturalist]

16. You said it better. I have a tendency to complain.

: )

[freddie mertz]

12. This statement sucks of course.

I voted for him in spite of it, not because of it.

Which is allowed, I believe.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Yeah, his carrying on against the passage of marriage equality laws really pisses me off.

Oh. Wait....

[ruggerson]

48. No, he just makes jokes about them and doesn't comment further

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benld74]

19. Personal beliefs SHOULD NOT become PUBLIC LAW

[freddie mertz]

24. RIGHT! This is a CIVIL RIGHTS issue. And it is a NATIONAL one.

Not a a matter for the "states."

They tried that same sleazy line with Segregation and Slavery.

It was a disgrace then, and it is still a disgrace now.

[mkultra]

29. which was actually Obama's point in the above quote.

[superduperfarleft]

37. So? It still means he's a bigot.

If I say, "I fucking hate n*****s, but I believe that they should be treated equally under the law," does that somehow absolve me of the label of bigot?

[Number23]

49. This country was FOUNDED by people who held those very beliefs and still do to this day

Black people are not naive. We don't give a crap if you like us, and could give less than a damn if you have our backs. But we'll fight tooth and nail if you try to discriminate against us. One of the reasons that black American culture and the black civil rights movement is held up as a standard for the entire world to see.

[superduperfarleft]

50. I'm not arguing the practical implications of his belief, or anyone else's.

I'm simply arguing what the definition of a "bigot" is.

[mkultra]

72. and you are correct. He posesses bigotry as we all do

i think your greater point fails quickly. The problem is that the standard definition of bigotry is seperate from the colloquial meaning that many of us use today. While bigotry really means any strong or unreasonable opinion, what most of us mean when we say bigotry is hatred based on these opinions.


The same dynamic exists for the word sexism. While sexism is just defined as something that forwards existing derogatory stereotypes regarding sex, it has really come to mean anything that creates an environment of hostility toward women or a woman.

[mkultra]

70. well according to the strict definition

Bigotry is the possession or expression of strong, unreasonable prejudices or opinions.

Under this definition, the answer is yes.

[dsc]

86. no it wasn't that is a total fabrication

he said it in the context of why he favored domestic partners legislation and didn't favor legalizing marriage equality.

[impik]

21. So.... That's what he believes. You knew it before voting for him

[LiberalFighter]

22. Easy solution... one of them has to declare themselves of the opposite sex

or whoever considers themselves the more dominant in the relationship whether in the home or at work would be male, etc.

[Orsino]

25. K&R

I'm not sure how much good repeating this repugnant stance can do, but I really wish our president could see his way toward a flip-flop.

[IndianaGreen]

26. It explains Rick Warren, a man that supports the death penalty for LGBTs

[WonderGrunion]

27. I'm a very partisan Obama supporter.

And he's flat out wrong on this. He's wrong on corn ethanol too, but that's not relevant to this thread.

[mkultra]

30. whats his stance on ethanol?

[WonderGrunion]

31. He's pro corn ethanol

despite the inefficiencies and the effect it has on food markets. There is ample evidence that cellulose ethanol (which is 7x more efficient than corn ethanol) can be made into a flex-fuel alternative for the American consumer without adverse effects on food markets, especially if we eliminate tariffs on Mexican sugar cane.

[mkultra]

65. I support corn ethanol

Ive looked into it deeply and i know from research that the effect on world corn prices would not effect 3rd world food supply as most don't use corn as a staple food source. It would, however, give third world countries a cash crop that could be used as an export, thus shifting our fuel purchases from middle eastern oil countries to third world agro countries.

The in efficiency arguments are not based in science but rather in ignorance. If your reaching for the "less energy contained" argument i would simply inform you that ethanol has a lower burning temperature than gasoline. If you have done research into what benefits that creates, you wold quickly see that ethanol as a fuel source is net more efficient than petroleum products.

forgive me if my tone seems trite as its not my intent. I'm more than willing to discuss this topic in depth.

[WonderGrunion]

68. I'm pro-ethanol, just not corn ethanol

I hat hijacking this thread like this. Ethanol produced from sugar cane, switch grass and sugar beets is far more efficient which is why it is the model used to obtain energy independence for Brazil. I think ethanol is one of the major players to weaning America from its' oil addiction, I just want us to be smarter about it rather than fund agri-business with ethanol research.

[mkultra]

76. well, these are all good points

Unfortunately, switchgrass yield is lower than many expected and sugar cane/beats have trouble growing in all regions. Despite the fact that the corn industry pushes corn ethanol for its own ends, corn ethanol still remains not only viable but the best option.

Consider this: according to my research, fueling our vehicles strictly off ethanol would require that we use one quarter of our current farm land for fuel. Much of our current fallow farm land could be put to use. This of course is not the big benefit though. The biggest benefit is a more fair global trade environment. We would essentially need to continue buying our "fuel" from other countries but now we could buy it from 3rd worlds which would give them a chance to move up in the world economy.

Anyway, start a thread and we can chop through it.

[mkultra]

28. Obama quote on proposition 8

From the transcript:
Obama: I have stated my opposition to that. I think it is unnecessary. I believe that marriage is between a man and woman and I am not in favor of gay marriage, but when you're playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that that is not what America is about. Usually constitutions expand liberties, they don't contract them. What I believe is that if we have strong civil unions out there that provide legal rights to same-sex couples that they can visit each other in the hospital if they get sick, that they can transfer property to each other. If they've got benefits, they can make sure those benefits apply to their partners. I think that is the direction we need to go. I think young people are ahead of the curve on this, for the most part. I think their attitude generally is, "We should be respectful of all people," and that is the kind of politics I want to practice.

Sway: So you would vote ...

Obama: I would vote no on the proposition.

[superduperfarleft]

40. Gotcha. So he's a bigot. n/t

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tabbycat31]

63. and he should look to NJ to learn civil unions don't work

[msallied]

34. Wow. Way to take a comment out of context.

At which point did Barack Obama then go on to say that he supported bans against affording gays the same rights as married heterosexuals?

I'll make sure not to hold my breath.

[superduperfarleft]

39. Like I said above...

if I say "I fucking hate n*****s, but I believe they should be treated equally under the law," does that not make me a bigot?

[msallied]

41. You think Obama's statement was equivalent to that?

Seriously?

Obama's statement may not be a statement I agree with (namely because I am an atheist who sees marriage as more of a legal and civil issue than a spiritual one), but it's not hate speech. It is a view shared by a LOT of Christians. In fact, I'd be willing to say most of them, namely because of the book of Leviticus. I feel those people are wrong and/or misguided. However, I don't think they are bigots. Bigotry is rooted in intolerance. Intolerance is what you see behind people who are actively creating legislation to block the rights of gays. Obama didn't say "I fucking hate fags," which is the equivalent of your provided statement.

I think you're missing the difference between acceptance and tolerance. No one should be expected to LIKE gays (or anyone for that matter, no matter their color, creed, gender, or sexual preference). But they damn well should be expected to tolerate those who are different from them. So no, I see nothing inherently bigoted about even your own statement. It's something an asshole would say, but if that asshole thinks those people should be treated equally under the law, then I can't really deny him or her the right to feel the way they do.

[Starry Messenger]

43. They can feel any damn way they want to but they would still be bigots.

There's not a lot of grey area there. Bigots are generally assholes.

[superduperfarleft]

52. Of course he has the right to feel the way he does.

I never argued differently. What I was arguing was that even if one has no desire to impose their bigoted beliefs on others, they can still be a bigot.

And by the way, by Skinner's own admission, Obama would not be allowed to post at Democratic Underground. I think that speaks volumes.

[BklnDem75]

71. Perhaps you should look the word up...

before you start applying it to others.


A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own.

Bigot is often used as pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to their prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged, often engaging these prejudices in a rude and intolerant manner. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology, like racism, religion, and nationalism.

Bigotry is not "intolerance," but "unreasonable intolerance". Jews are understandably intolerant of Nazi Anti-Semitism; that doesn't necessarily make them anti-Nazi bigots.

A bigot will continue to hold these opinions even when confronted with evidence that challenges such stereotypes. To protect his views, he may either dismiss the challenges he encounters as an aberration to the norm and ignore the fact that they threaten to undercut his prejudices. On a more extreme level, he may deny the evidence altogether. Both reactions can be classified as forms of cognitive dissonance.


Know what other word is associated with the word Bigot? Purist

[superduperfarleft]

74. All that to defend Obama's anti-gay bigotry. Wow... n/t

[BklnDem75]

75. All what? A copy and paste job?

Sorry I led you to believe you were important. Forgive me?

[msallied]

35. You do know that the government can't really legislate what a church decides to do, right?

[ruggerson]

46. Obama was asked about civil marriage

but he has continuously conflated the issue with his supposed religious beliefs, which, intentionally or not, has only served to confuse the debate and lend succor and comfort to those who oppose marriage equality.

Apparently you are doing the same thing, because this debate is not about churches, but about the piece of paper a couple gets from city hall.

[msallied]

83. The problem is the word "marriage," I think.

I'd love to do away with it entirely. Particularly when politicians start talking about it.

[Lyric]

87. It's ironic that the word "marriage" only became the problem

when gay people wanted to share it.

I'd have no problem getting rid of "marriage" as a legal institution--eventually. But not yet. If we do it before the nation gains marriage equality, then it sends the message that gay people are SO AWFUL that we'd rather get rid of marriage entirely than share it with them, that they don't deserve "marriage" as much as anyone else.

Give us equality FIRST, so that we win more than just the rights--we also win the battle of principles, the principles that say we are ALL equal and deserving, the ones that help create a secure social foundation for all couples in our society. Then in a decade or two, we can start fighting about getting rid of marriage as a legal institution.

[QC]

90. Some states in the South proposed to shut down their public schools rather than integrate them.

It was better, as they saw it, to have no schools at all than to share them with those they hated.

Same deal.

[Canuckistanian]

36. There should have been a "but......." at the end of that statement

However, there wasn't.

[superduperfarleft]

38. DU's defense of Obama's admitted homophobia

is both amusing and sad on pretty much a daily basis.

[msallied]

42. I think it's your simplistic thinking that is sad.

DU loses points on critical thinking daily.

[treestar]

47. At the risk of being called a pom-pommer that's not quite fair on Obama

He is still working on laws that are favorable and there is the Matthew Shepherd Act
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/subjects/gays-and-lesbians/

[superduperfarleft]

53. And yet he still personally believes that marriage rights should be denied to GLBT people.

At the risk of losing my status as an Obama-hater, I absolutely applaud his advocacy on the hate crimes issue. And if he continues to champion the repeal of DOMA, I'll applaud him as well.

But stating that "marriage is between a man and a woman" is ignorant and bigoted. I don't care if he legislates from that perspective, I can still call his personal beliefs on the issue bigoted.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

66. while its his belief, i disagree that he is bigoted

I am fairly sure he has stated that if a bill appears on his desk that would grant all such rights he would sign it since his personal views should not decide if a bill is accepted or not

And i still feel its wrong of others to call him and many christians(not all since there *is* way to many bigots around)for bigots, I'll agree their views are misguided and ignorant tho

[Cleobulus]

85. A bigot is a bigot, regardless as to where they claim their beliefs come from...

Why the fuck do people make exceptions for religiously motivated bigots?

[nomorenomore08]

91. A misguided interpretation of "freedom of religion," perhaps?

And yeah, of course people have the right to their own religious beliefs. But they don't have an inalienable right to demonstrate ignorance or malice and not be called on it.

[dionysus]

69. recycling outrage i see....

[ruggerson]

78. last I looked most of us still aren't married

so the anger isn't recycled. It never went away. And, on this progressive website it's disheartening to see how many continually try to diminish and malign it.

[dionysus]

84. with all due respect sometimes it feels, with all else going on, it's a pile on.

i apologize if i offended you

[PBS Poll-435]

79. For fuck's sake. I can't wait for a GBCW post from you

[Honeycombe8]

80. A personal belief is different from political action. Many Dems oppose abortion personally, but

support a woman's right to choose. (Mainly the Catholic Dems, I think.)

A personal belief has little to do with one's support for the Constitution and support of others' right to believe what THEY choose.

Obama said he would veto any attempt to amend the Constitution to deny gays the right to marry.

[ruggerson]

81. No he didn't

He said nothing of the sort. Presidents cannot veto constitutional amendments. They are passed by Congress and then go to the states for ratification.

[Honeycombe8]

88. Maybe he said "oppose," not veto. Yes, he said that. It's very scary...

that some Dems are becoming like thought police. It's not actions that matter, but thoughts.

[Honeycombe8]

89. Links to Obama's actions re gay rights

Here ya go:

Opposes same-sex marriage, but also opposes a constitutional ban. Says he would repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment. As stated on the Obama campaign Web site, he supports full civil unions that "give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights."

Says the Employment Non-Discrimination Act should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. Advocated legislation that sought to expand federal hate crimes law to include sexual orientation and gender identity.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.samesexmarriage.html

In a letter to the Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club, Sen. Barack Obama stated his opposition to the California (anti-gay marriage) constitutional amendment.
http://www.calitics.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6307

Nov 3, 2008 ... Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate, ... voted against a federal constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman.
www.telgraph.co.uk

Obama Opposes Discriminatory Constitutional
Amendments. Obama “opposes all divisive
and discriminatory Constitutional
amendments, state or federal.” This includes
the proposed amendments In California,
Arizona and Florida.

Obama Supports Full Adoption Rights for
Same Sex Couples. Obama believes that LGBT
people should have the same adoption rights
as heterosexuals.

Obama Sponsored Fully Inclusive Non‐
Discrimination Bill In Illinois. He was a
champion of the bill for seven years, which
later passed after Obama had been elected to
the US Senate.

Obama Supports Legislation to Outlaw
Employment Discrimination on the Basis of
Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity.

Obama Supports Complete Repeal of DOMA.

http://obama.3cdn.net/9bbadf2e4222f1de03_5humvyu4s.pdf

Bush supported constitutional amendments banning gay marriage. This is one area where there has been change from the prior administration. Obama hasn't done much in this area so far (he's been kinda busy, what with the economy crashing and all). But I'm giving him at least a year before I start crucifying him for not "acting." His personal beliefs? I don't care. Plus, we are all entitled to our personal beliefs. We are all the product of our life experiences, instilled belief systems, and so forth. What matters is action.

[and-justice-for-all]

82. Where is the quote in its entirety please? nt