Van Jones tells netroots to knock off the bullshit

[SoxFan]

Former White House green jobs "czar" Van Jones told progressive activists and bloggers today that, rather than bash President Obama for not changing the country as fast as they'd thought, they should maintain hope and help him with his agenda.

"I can't stand it. President Obama volunteered to be the captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg," Jones said at Netroots Nation while being interviewed by journalist Ari Melber of The Nation.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/van-jones-to-netroots-quit-beating-up-on-obama.php

[NJmaverick]

1. Van Jones nails it! Hopefully the clarity of vision he shared will

not fall on deaf ears.

[Cant trust em]

2. Depth ears? nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. Sensible dude

[Jackpine Radical]

203. Ouch.

[alcibiades_mystery]

218. Huh?

[Jackpine Radical]

220. I was channeling a woodchuck.

[alcibiades_mystery]

221. Hmmm

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I think you must be mistaking me for someone else.

[Jackpine Radical]

223. Chuckles the Sensible Woodchuck

has become a mascot to a number of people on DU.

[alcibiades_mystery]

226. Oh

Sorry. Must have missed that whole thing. I can see how "Sensible Dude" would be ouchworthy in that context. Sorry for being such a lame-o to make you explain your joke, though. Feeling a little out of the loop over here.

:-)

[Jackpine Radical]

237. Out of the loop? I can't count the number of times

I've felt that way on DU. Especially, in my case, when everyone is excited about something on the boob tube, which I hardly ever watch.

[ecstatic]

4. k&r... I doubt they'll listen. nt

[CakeGrrl]

5. Good for Mr. Jones

Seems pretty obvious. What will now be said about him for appealing to reason?

[Spazito]

6. Well said, Mr. Jones...

I also appreciate him saying this:

"Jones, who resigned last year after conservatives targeted him as an extreme leftist, refrained from any Obama-slamming of his own. Speaking to a large second-day crowd, Jones reminded the group that he quit and wasn't pushed out. "I resigned. I did not want to be the banana peel that the president of the United States slipped on trying to win on health care," Jones said."

Given his name has recently been used, inaccurately imo, over the past few days to paint President Obama in way that is misleading, I applaud him addressing his resignation in a forthright manner.

[meowomon]

7. Well, gosh since you put it that way, I'll just shut up and quit trying to hope for more change!

I still support our President, but I will still criticize him and his administration in hopes of improving things for all of us. Maybe if Bush had more criticism from the progressives in his party, we would be a whole hell of a lot better off now!

We're Democrats. We don't walk in lock step like the republicans.

[WI_DEM]

9. are there any progressives in the GOP?

[meowomon]

11. OK, so moderates?

But I am most decidedly not moderate.

[frazzled]

12. Try reading it again.

Maintain the hope for change and "help him with his agenda."

Criticism alone is not what moves anyone. It's an armchair agenda that might make you feel better, but its unlikely to create the change. Remember, there are as many, if not far more, people criticizing the administration from the opposite direction. The criticism from all sides creates logjams. Helping move one of the sides can push things forward.

[meowomon]

15. That's ridiculous

You think the collective voices aren't heard? You think I'm alone in this?

[Hydra]

24. "Helpful hints"

Are not being heard.

When we all get upset, as we did in the Shirley Sherrod issue, the right thing is done.

F A I L

[frazzled]

51. Fail

Van Jones is talking about action, not talk--either helpful hints (which I never implied) or shouting. But you know what? I've kind of given up talking to people here. No one is going to convince anyone else of anything they don't already think. That's how it is, all helpful hints or yelling aside.

It'll be interesting to see if Van Jones, one of the Netroots most respected heroes, gets any traction on this. I doubt it.

[Hydra]

80. We are talking about action

And about how previous support, protests were ignored, and even disdained by the WH. The Gulf disaster for one.

You may be right that minds won't change. After all, we seem to somehow have gone from being the fact based community when Bush was in office, to being just as righteously blind as the bush supporters during his illegal reign of terror.

"If you keep the hope alive, change is still possible,"

Today Biden said their job was over until after the Nov. elections. How's that for keeping Hope alive?

[KakistocracyHater]

87. so you're saying my intensive endless repetition of Food Medicine Candy Bomb

Afghanistan was not heard?

My linking to the Rand corp. study of what actually ENDED terrorism, with 'the military option' succeeding only about 7% of the time, against good old fashioned police/detective work succeeding some 40%, & adding Representation to the angry masses besieged by the powerful having another 40-something% success rate
ALL WERE FOR NAUGHT?


figures. I feel dead here anyway.

[Hydra]

88. You and me both

But perhaps I was being a tad overgenerous. Most of the time they don't listen to us anyway...but our only victories so far have been when the WH knew we were beyond upset.

In my book, use what works.

What DOESN'T seem to be working is being polite and showing support, for whatever reason. May have something to do with Rahm Emanuel's stated aim to disengage from the left and not need their votes.

[KakistocracyHater]

89. ah I call him Wrong Emanuel.........but you are correct about that ratsack

so let see how little they need our votes, eh? They are not representing me but BP instead.

[Hydra]

92. Only one question in my mind

Now that campaign contributions are unlimited, what's the board going to look like when at of the candidates are truly bought and paid for, and don't actually have to promise anything to us little people?

[KakistocracyHater]

251. well the nation may look like a 70s sci-fi novel, with Corporations owning

nearly everyone & everything.......with some toxic Buck Rogers areas thrown in for variety.

[fascisthunter]

179. exactly....

[NJmaverick]

13. There are no progressives left in the Republican party

plus you were not told to shut up, but rather you were challenged as to your point of view. The "shut up" comment makes me think you were not willing to listen to what he had to say.

[JuniperLea]

18. Isn't that an oxymoron... or oxymoran as it were?

GOP progressives? I am pretty sure they all went the way of the dinosaur.

[impik]

39. What's being done to this president by the left is not "criticizing"

It's a hit job even more effective than the what's the right is doing. Don't pretend that you don't know what its all about.

[Demeter]

168. In Self-Defense

for democracy and the American people

[suzie]

214. Nixon is to the left of Obama.

Yeah, "hit job" seems the correct terminology.

[bobburgster]

116. Nothing wrong with that attitude..

The problem I have is with those who, only criticize him and his administration, because he is not doing exactly what they want fast enough.

[HughMoran]

134. What a bizzarre reaction

:eyes:

[treestar]

156. Only criticizing improves things?

I'd hate to have to deal with you every day. That just drags everyone down. Do something positive.

[Tempest]

8. I'll stop bashing Obama when I start seeing the change we were promised

And by change, I don't mean cowering in fear every time Faux News and the right wing bloggers come up with manufactured outrage.


And why was Jones even invited to speak at Netroots Nation in the first place?

[frazzled]

17. Maybe because he is the preeminent clean energy and human rights advocate ...

in the nation? And the darling of the Netroots? And someone who was felt to have been abandoned because of Congressional opposition to his nomination by the president?

Turns out, he's more on the president's side than anyone ever thought.

[impik]

41. Naa, he's a sell-out too...

[avaistheone1]

113. We have a new King of Pop.

When was the coronation?

[impik]

40. You should go check your eyesight if you don't see the change

And if the change you want to see is Obama spending his time fighting against Fox - then you're into some very long years ahead.

Yep, continue bash him, that will do you a lot of good. Especially in 2012. I can't wait to see you getting the "change" from Palin. That will be fun.

[derby378]

52. Here's the change I see...

My health insurance premiums are going up again, I can't even choose another policy (since I work for the State), it's going to be harder for me to buy a house even if I get enough money to do so, and we're still in Iraq and will continue to be there for the next 10 years. And where are the green jobs that we've been promised? We're still fighting high unemployment rates.

You could call it anger, fear, or frustration, but that's as close as you could get. We got Obama elected, and we want results instead of hot air.

[Tempest]

70. That's the same change I see

He's looking through rose colored glasses.

[truedelphi]

111. You apparently are forgetting about all the great things that the war in Iraq

Has done for our nation.

Like once we started bringing home huge tankers of oil from Iraq, it made it possible to suspend drilling for deep water oil, so we could keep our coastline environments safe.

Uh, oh, yeah -- that didn't quite turn out that way.

[Cherchez la Femme]

129. Or that

Obama speechified: 'with the technology we have today, deep ocean drilling was perfectly safe'

Yet all the things BP tried to correct their "high tech well" were all done at least 20 years ago or more.


Y'know, it sure would be nice if someone in the administration did their homework before opening their mouths and inserted their feet.

...it'd be nice.

[truedelphi]

213. If the Obama Admin. did its homework, it would see

That their support of the Corporate establishment in the USA is going to devastate our food supply, on account of Monsanto's mold-contaminating GM package of deadly de-nourishing agent glyphosate (Found in Round Up)

That their FDA attempts at food safety are mysteriously targeting only the small farmers, so again, no organic food will be had.

That the nation has no true response to oil "spill" disasters (And this is coming at a time when the "permanently" frozen tundra of the Alaskan Artic is about to thaw away, forcing hundreds of miles of pipe to sink, and split apart.

That all of Obama's touted "solutions" are like dust in the wind. The Twenty billion dollars he supposedly got from BP is going to be only 3 billion this year (when needed most) and should BP go into bankruptcy all debts will be forgiven, including this twenty billion dollar debt. (Not to worry - Hayward will still get a mighty tasty "golden parachute")

Matt Simmons is saying that BP is already talking to Bankruptcy Attorneys, so those in the Gulf should press early and often to get what they deserve.

[Tempest]

71. Obama promised to stand up to Republicans

Haven't seen any sign of that yet.

[Chef Eric]

130. So, we should shut up about the wars?

And we should shut up about the 10% unemployment? Because if we don't shut up, then Sarah Palin will become President, and it will be all our fault?

[Skittles]

174. there is nothing wrong with our eyesight

and your President Palin bullshit 15 minutes is over

[cottonseed]

64. Van Jones isn't up to your standards?

I don't get it. A guy like that shouldn't be speaking at Netroots?

[treestar]

157. Man you don't give anyone any credit for anything as long as there

is one little thing "wrong." Impossible to please, I'd say.

Why shouldn't anyone be interviewed anywhere by anyone? :wtf:

[SidDithers]

240. Well, at least you're honest that it's "bashing"...

you're not trying to disguise it as criticism.

Sid

[HughMoran]

242. You bash Obama?

Your candor is appreciated.

[BootinUp]

10. Maybe he should have a woodchuck puppet

on his hand while he says it. Might help.

[Tarheel_Dem]

33. +10

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Spazito]

48. LOL and +2! n/t

[EFerrari]

14. Van Jones isn't my daddy.

lol

[meowomon]

16. Even my daddy don't tell me how to behave.

[JuniperLea]

20. Too bad... eom

[slay]

21. Meow

[Cherchez la Femme]

117. That's REAL respectful

:eyes:

[Raineyb]

149. Looks like yours didn't either.

That was uncalled for.

[EFerrari]

25. Too funny because I was just defending Van Jones in another thread.

But, you're still not my daddy, Van.

:rofl:

[slay]

19. Ok, let's say he's right. Well captain, the ship is still sinking and bailing with these thimbles

is maybe not what we need. We need(ed) REAL health care reform. We need to get out of Afghanistan and stop the blood for war profiteering. We need to protect people from corporations who ship our jobs overseas as they BUY their very own pro-business Republican congressmen who pass the laws to let them do it. We need to make the Democratic Party better Mr. Jones. We need it to be a party of the people. The corporations have their own party already in the Republicans and us citizens desperately need one too. Where is it? These days, I don't know. :(

*on edit: woops, left out the word "it".

[grahamhgreen]

23. Exactly - we are ready and willing to help him, but he needs to start lowering the lifeboats!

[impik]

42. You are so busy pulling your hair, you don't even see the lifeboats.

And no, you will not help Obama no matter what he'll do.

[grahamhgreen]

63. How is forcing someone to buy insurance from criminals a lifeboat?

[treestar]

158. What an admirable sentence

In a mere eleven words you've crowded every DU left exaggerated cliche into one sentence! Wringing out the most ridiculous negative interpretation out of everything to distill it into one personal reality with no basis in actual reality.

[Cherchez la Femme]

197. What's untrue about it?

Pray educate us.

[treestar]

253. Most Americans do no accept the premise, assumed in that sentence

That insurance companies constitute "criminals." If they did, they'd seek indictments for the "crimes." Even if there is some crime or fraud, it is the exception like with every other endeavor. That the Health Care Plan is nothing but "forcing people to buy insurance" is a distillation of every silly argument about the Health Care Plan. It may not be single payer, but it attempts to make sure everyone is covered. That's not nothing and not beneficial only to the insurance company.

[grahamhgreen]

250. The truth is simple. Obfuscation takes a thousand pages.

[JoePhilly]

27. Very silly ....

I usually don't like sports analogies but I will use two now.

1) In baseball, everyone loves the home run. But there is a reason that they count on-base percentage and RBIs. Its because to SCORE, you need to ADVANCE the runner. Sadly, at times, you leave runners on base. But the goal is to put runners on base and advance them to second base ... which is considered SCORING POSITION. From there, the offense and defense fight.

2) In football, everyone loves the long bomb for a touchdown. It is exciting. But that is not how most points are scored in football. You have to get first downs. You have to have a running game. You kick field goals. Do you abandon your team if they kick a field goal versus going for it on 4th and 20??

For some reason, members from our side are booing singles and doubles and demanding home runs. They are booing first downs, and field goals.

fyi ... the GOP gets this ... abortion is a HUGE right wing issue ... and you won't see right to life folks bitching that the GOP has done too little to overturn Roe v Wade ... they recognize that any progress they get ... any at all ... move them in the direction they want to go.

As far as I can tell, some who see themselves as "progressive" don't cheer PROGRESS against a goal ... but only ARRIVAL at the end point.

Are we there yet ... are we there yet ... are we there yet ....

[slay]

29. Are we even getting close - hell no

it's 2010 we have cell phones and satellites and yet i see very little in the way towards progressive goals. sorry you think that's "silly". obama strikes out alot - i have not seen one single home run from him JoePhilly. :P

*oh yeah, on edit - don't call my posts silly - you can disagree with me on content but don't try and belittle me or my thoughts on things JoePhilly, you should be above petty crap like that.

[JoePhilly]

36. Let me start with the "silly" aspect ...

1) Your post demands "real" HCR ... but does not (a) acknowledge the progress made or (b) define "real progress" in any way. Note one thing.

2) Obama as a candidate said he would increase troops levels in Afganistan ... he has. It was not a secret. He also set a target of ending all combat operations in Iraq within 16 months. He is on track to do so. You scream about the one (which we all knew he would do) and then ignore the other.

3) From this point in your post ... you demand more controls on business, corporations are bad, and Obama isn't doing enough to stop them. Again ... you suggest NOTHING. HOW should he do it? The financial reform just passed is not sufficient for you apparently. How so?

And last, Obama did not run as a "progressive". The members of DU can't agree on what that term means, or who amoung us is "pure enough" to be able to claim being a member.

In reality, Obama ran on moving past partisan politics and towards a more pragmatic model. Make progress. Move forward, often slowly. Change course if needed.

As for whether Obama has hit home runs ... HCR is clearly a home run, not a grand slam, but a home run. Clinton FAILED if you recall did not even get on base.

[slay]

37. 1. It was NOT real healthcare reform. 2. The war is WRONG regardless of your excuses. 3. It's not

my job to fix the country, that's why I voted for Obama. The facts are Obama is not a great president. He's not. Not even close. He's just better than a republican. He should have spoken out for a public option, he should NOT be supporting a war in Afghanistan, and gee, I guess I'd repeal NAFA and make laws so it so it's not profitable for corporations to ship our jobs overseas. Wow, that sure is tough to actually speak up for what I believe in - I can see why he's having such problems. :crazy:

*on edit - censored myself so the mods don't trash my post.. sigh..

[JNelson6563]

107. Getting increasingly shrill there "Slay"

And sounding a bit less lucid. I gotta give this one to JoePhilly.

Julie

[Cherchez la Femme]

118. 'scuse me, but

who made you referee? Are we all to obey to your preferred tone? We don't have the right to be as upset as our own conscience dictates?


Jebus

[Bodhi BloodWave]

140. Whereas I will have to

side with JNelson6563's view on the two.

JNelson only gave her opinion on what the two were talking about and found JoePhilly to make the better case and saying so, nothing wrong with that as far as I can see. Or isn't JNelson permitted to post her own view on it. :hide:

(Edited to correct gender)

[Cherchez la Femme]

146. Oh hey, np

you are surely allowed your opinion just as I hope anyone else would be.


I went back & reread it,
after all I DO want to be fair

and, believe it or not, in my life I HAVE been wrong before!
I know, incredible, eh? :D


It is my take that the Subject and the first sentence in the body of the message are uncalled for, to wit: "increasingly shrill"* and "a bit less lucid" where to me "a bit" is a throwaway and "less lucid" is the operative term, what sticks in the mind.

The last sentence reinforces my take of 'referee', but IMHO taken alone it is benign enough to mitigate it to a legitimate, not-especially-rude criticism.


So I guess we'd have to agree to disagree, in the main.


*This is one of my pet peeves: People who dare say to a virtual stranger that they are "shrill" or "hysterical" or worse of all "thou dost protest too much" implying they are acting or lying or both
-- who are they to decide how concerned/upset another person can be on any given subject? It is a put down, but it is an illogical humiliation and it can't be done in any other way than to denigrate the poster. Such people have no right to do that, I'm sure they have their own hot-button issues and would be personally outraged if the same were said unto them.


edit : clarification

[Raineyb]

147. I'm inclined to agree with Cherchez la Femme

JNelson6563's post didn't add anything to the actual conversation other than to pile on top of a poster she clearly didn't agree with.

And to make sure THIS post doesn't follow the same line, I'll actually add something to the conversation.

It would appear to me that there are quite a few people who are inclined to just agree with anything that comes out of the White House because the person in office has a D after his name and in order to insure a "win" they don't want anyone on the left pointing out some rather obvious flaws in what is going on in the White House out of fear that the Right Wing will have a field day. In case you didn't notice the Right Wing is having a bloody field day anyway so you might as well try to get as much as you can. If that means whipping some nominal Democrats into line so be it. There is absolutely NO reason we should be putting up with any bullshit from the likes of Blanche Lincoln, Ben Nelson, and Joe fucking LIEberman. But Obama kow tows to these assholes and even went so far as to back Lincoln in her primary AFTER she fucking obstructed on the public option. Which means that she'll continue to obstruct just like the Republican she is. So what's the lesson to be learned? If you try to get things passed you'll get screwed but if you try to obstruct you'll get every fucking thing you want unless of course you're left of center then and only then does the President bother to threaten to withhold support. So please spare me the nonsense about he has to work with the Senate he has. He's made it perfectly clear which side of the spectrum he's interested in by his actions and the left of center netroots has EVERY right to kick up a fuss. They were looking for PROGRESSIVE change, slightly less right winged but still right winged changes were NOT what people voted for.

[JNelson6563]

151. Be upset all you like

Bring a weak ass argument to the table on a discussion board and yes, someone may dare comment.

Get over it Bunky.

Julie

[Cherchez la Femme]

190. Who's upset?

*puzzled*
I asked, you answered.
Who's being snarky? Seems to me that's the person more emotionally involved. :shrug:

And who the hell is "Bunky", anyhow??


Curiouser & curiouser



edit:spelling

2nd edit: The response I gave to Bodhi B was not meant to knock you at all, and if I gave that impression I'm very sorry. In fact, the order I gave the examples "Shrill, Hysterical, Thou Dost Protest Too Much" is exactly the order, from lesser to most egregious, I hold comments of that type. "Shrill" I obviously don't like, but I hold it minor; certainly far from the ire I feel when I read the "Thou Dost..." comment (as for "Hysterical", it usually is used as a misogynist put-down, but I've seen an exception or two; "Shrill" *may* fall in that category, & as I said to a lesser degree but the context has to be looked at -- simply my personal lexicon, certainly not hard & fast grammatical rules).
I didn't spell all that information out because, as you may have seen, I tend to type a LOT to try to explain all the nooks & crannies, as it were, of my thought. But ofttimes it just covers minutiae that nobody really cares about. Of course in this instance when I neglected to cover it, it may have played a part in a misunderstanding. If so, please accept my heartfelt apology. My post to BB was not, except in the very beginning, directed at your comment.
Also, in the initial post, the "Jebus" was not meant on my part as exasperation but as puzzlement. In hindsight I shouldn't have included it in the post, not without an explanation at least.
Addi tonally, I realize that "who made you..." can sound very confrontational, which is why I put 's'cuse me but' instead of that in the Subject line -- I hoped it would sound more polite and not as accusational. I tend to talk, even IRL, in strong words which aren't meant in the vein as people take them. It wasn't meant as being that nasty as it is usually used (at least on TV) but I couldn't think of any other way to put it without writing a tome.
And now THIS tome! :D
I hope that covers it :)

I'm being over backwards and probably writing too much anyhow. f you don't care, that's cool too -- I just wanted to be absolutely clear. :)

[JNelson6563]

233. It's all good.

Peace. :toast:

[inna]

136. actually, that's a pure projection on your part, Julie.

WRT being shrill and less than lucid.

:hi:


I gotta give this one to Slay. :rollseyes:

lol

[JNelson6563]

150. Yeah, I gotta watch that.

I tend to get out of hand when confronted with well reasoned posts. It's a weakness. :-)

Julie

[slay]

210. I see you're using the typical Republican tactic - attack the person while ignoring his arguments

that's fine. means there is no need to debate anything with you. you've already lost. ha ha! :P

[JNelson6563]

234. I wasn't in the argument, I was commenting on it.

And my view is you did just what you accuse me of. I made no argument on either side of the topic.

Julie

[SoxFan]

165. Whoa there, big fella

In 2008, Democrats had a chance to nominate a candidate, Dennis Kucinich, who supported single-payer, an immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan, repealing NAFTA, etc.

He received one percent of the Democratic vote.

Even the base of the Democratic Party isn't buying what you folks are selling.

You lost. Deal with it.

[Cherchez la Femme]

202. *sigh*

Don't you understand that was "dealt with" LONG ago. There is nothing to get over.

I don't think I know one single Kucinich backer who even thought he would actually get anywhere.
He's short, he's 'older', he's not very good-looking (and godnose we need a handsome President! Now that's important!, and he's way too liberal for the rightward-shifting Democrats, much less the mainstream U.S. to have elected (although he would have done the best job, still MHO);
even though he's got a gorgeous hot wife.

I, and most other Kucinich backers I know, waited for the primary then went to work for the Democratic candidate. (I predicted that Obama would win out over Hillary for the simple fact that black males got the vote 50+ years before women. I did not expect any great change in the years, and I was right). Personally I thought Obama gave good speechifyin' but the proof was in his actions and that was just a test of time.

As a lesbian, I closely watched Obama's dealings with the LGBTQ community. He avoided us for months, wouldn't even be interviewed by any 'gay' publication. Pre-primary I remember very well an article printed to which Obama would not respond; as they listed columns of candidates answers the column for Obama was left blank: white space.
I had a feeling then, but no proof, so I still volunteered many many hours and gave all the money I could (no, not all gay people are rich, even well-off).
And I, as the signage said, Hoped.

I've seen little Change which has fostered a lack of Hope. In fact I've seen what could politely be called 'politics' and more correctly (but less politically correct) called Propaganda ("Fierce Advocate", "Bully Pulpit" "Public Option a must" "No lobbyists", etc.)
THAT is something not gotten over well, I'll admit. It still could be reversed, but judging by what comes out of the White House, there's still very little Hope.

--Is that our fault? Can you honestly say that??

Complain all you want, but these opinions and feelings weren't born of mere conjecture, lack of evidence or out of 'poutrage' because Kucinich or anyone else didn't win the primary;
you must understand, at least for many LGBTQ's (I dare not speak for all) these feelings weren't born in a vacuum.

And perhaps you can deal with that while disabusing yourself of the fallacy that the push-back against DLC Obama are due to sour grapes.
(And I don't say that in a confrontational way, just in a sad one.)


edit: What else? Grammar :/

[suzie]

217. You left out hateful, immature, usually votes with Republicans, and would prefer a KKKer

as his running mate.

[slay]

211. Ah I'm beginning to see which names always are in blind support

of Obama now. I get it.

[dembat]

54. JoePhilly

Wow, you are right on the money, thank you, thank you, thank you. I have been telling people the same thing, they do not know how to govern and just whine, & whine. The 60 votes that were in the senate was on paper, there are conservative dems in the senate who votes with the repubs, example Bill Nelson, so Obama is getting his victories, but he will come back in 2012 after he wins re election and enhance his reforms. Give the man a break I hate to see how the left is treating him. You are right he was never a liberal left but a liberal center.

[slay]

57. You get the country you deserve

if you are unwilling to embrace true change, you'll get shit instead, and you'll deserve it. Obama would be an excellent president.. for a Republican.

[BootinUp]

58. I love these kind of arguments

because they so completely ignore the reality of politics which is based on strength in numbers.

[slay]

59. What kind of numbers do you think the Dems will get when liberals tire of their bullshit

and vote their conscience and not just against Republicans? That day is fast approaching.

[BootinUp]

60. My guess is there is no reasoning

with you. Which means there is no party you would ever be satisfied with.

[slay]

61. I feel the same about you

except that anything that is not republican will satisfy you. excuse ME for wanting something that is actually good, and not just republican-lite, which is what the Dems of today are. go ahead, ask your masters for more like Obama. i'm sure they will give you as many pro-corporate leaders as suckers are willing to vote for.

[BootinUp]

65. Who was your choice for 2008 dem candidate for president? nt

[Cherchez la Femme]

119. Yeah!

Slay's so unreasonable!

Why hell, we should just all march in lock-step and only say "Please, sir,
may I have another?"

:eyes:

[JoePhilly]

78. No it isn't.

Who are you going to vote for??

Nader??

Let's consider him for a second. Some on the left voted for Nader because he was "greener" than Al Gore ... remember that????

Now ... of the two, which has spent more time out on front on green issues in the last decade. Hint ... it ain't Nader. Nader lives in a hole in the ground 3 years out of 4, then pops up.

You sound like a left wing version of the Tea Party ... focused more on ideology than on pragmatic progress in the direction we on the left want to move.

OH ... and when you decide to STAY HOME ... many in the country will discount you in total. You will no longer exist. And the political narrative will move further to the right. And I guess you will say that it is not your fault.

[Cherchez la Femme]

120. Now

you accuse Slay of being a(n equivalent) left-wing Tea Partier?

Seriously, is anyone moderating these top threads??

If I were smart I'd GTFO of this thread before my blood pressure gets any higher...


And BTW, Al Gore's best Green days were still way in the future. IIRC, he was also playing it very safe;
oh and again BTW: Gore actually won!

[JoePhilly]

77. Thanks for recognizing the difference between reality and idealism.

Some don't seem to get it.

One way I describe it is the difference between a STRATEGY and TACTICS. A Strategy is a longer term goal, a tactic is more immediate.

Tactical steps move you towards a strategic goal.

Some thing they are the same thing. And expect strategic goals to be reached as if they were tactical goals.

I know that the Chess analogy is over done ... but a real chess player knows that the 4 move check mate, which is possible, never beats a real opponent (you can actually win in 2 moves). Most chess games are won not by big bold moves, but ultimately by quiet moves ... like the advance of a single pawn. The position of pieces on the board after that quiet move becomes obvious, the game is over, except for the mechanical moves that follow.

Now I know some will scream because the chess analogy is often used in reference to Obama ... I am not suggesting that he is playing some advanced version of high level chess.

What I am suggesting is that some who scream about his efforts not only suck at chess, but that they would struggle at checkers. Even in checkers, you have to make progress across the board to make a king.

[Cherchez la Femme]

121. Aw, just say it

'Tactical steps move you towards a strategic goal"


you know you want to:

Chess!

3-dimensional chess!

[meowomon]

105. The problem is that they expect us to behave

yet continue to bow down to those with the money to get them reelected. The right has Obama by his nads.

[tbyg52]

173. Yep. And it's only gonna get worse. nt

[inna]

133. home run for insurance/pharma corps. it's a minus, not a plus. he gets an F on that one.

[JNelson6563]

90. Well said.

:toast:

[HughMoran]

138. Excellent analogy

Are we there yet ... are we there yet ... are we there yet ....

[liquid diamond]

222. Thank you! For weeks I've been wondering where that photo

comes from. Now that you've provided a larger version it has all come back and perfectly illustrates the whiners here.

[HughMoran]

241. Does it ever

Glad I could help put it in context for you.

[treestar]

160. +10000

Veruca Salt personified is in these posts.

[T Wolf]

198. Here's the sports analogy describing the Obama administration and their cohorts in Congress in

Obama is down by five with 5 seconds remaining.

He has the ball on the opponents' 20 yard line.

He brings on the placekicker?

The kick is good.

The gun goes off.

And he has lost by two points.

He announces victory because he covered the point spread (three points).

[Orsino]

56. Yes. I want no more talk of what was promised.

There's no time for that. However fine a job our president does in fighting systemic inertia, failure will still be catastrophic. We need what we need.

This isn't a monarchy, though. Real change is going to have to pass Congress, which has stymied the prez at every turn.

[spoony]

22. You heard the man, shut up plebes!

Know your fucking place! Anyway you're just online, you're not even real people, blah blah blah, blah.

[Bullet1987]

26. I call bullshit on Van Jones

Yes, Obama has inherited a major catastrophe...but I'm frankly tired of being told to get in line like a damn slave. Obama should be exposing the people who made this problem. Whether they be Republicans or Democrats. This nation is in the middle of several crisis' and Washington seems to still think it's business as usual. There is tons more Obama can be doing that he's not because he doesn't want to disrupt corporate interests. The more I look at this country and the growing number of poor, the more I see that we're quickly descending into a 2nd World nation. Cutting down on the Pentagon's enormous war budget which is the 800-pound elephant in the room isn't even on the table. Why? I'm sorry, I don't buy the bullshit Van Jones is trying to sell.

[BootinUp]

28. Its funny you mention the Pentagon budget.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/us/politics/23budget.html?_r=1&hpw

This article was front page today.

As for your other bitching, I am tired of arguing with bullheaded people around here so I just throw out snark mostly. lol.

[Bullet1987]

31. Look...when will you guys figure out that not everyone who supports

politicians supports them because of partisanship? Not everyone is a damn partisan!! It's not "bitching" to call bullshit on weakness. I didn't vote for Obama in 2008 because there was a D next to his name. I voted for him because I expected him to get shit done and hold people accountable. Not pass weak ass bills and pull a Bush "Mission Accomplished." And assign conservatives and corporatists to positions of power. Boy was I wrong...he really IS a politician first...leader second. I thought it was the other way around. Sorry if you can't understand that.

[dembat]

55. Obama is not weak

Since you say he is weak, why did'nt you get out there the tea party started their crap, & the repubs, get your progressive base and march to show solidarity to the President. That would have gotten a lot of media attention, but that is how we dems roll, we whine but don't bleed for our cause.

[Bullet1987]

66. The truth hurts

And I would if I had the bully pulpit.

[Amonester]

86. From the article, Gates doesn't want to cut the bloated Pentagon budget

What part of "Mr. Gates is arguing that if the Pentagon budget is allowed to keep growing by 1 percent a year, he can find 2 percent or 3 percent in savings in the department’s bureaucracy to reinvest in the military — and that will be sufficient money to meet national security needs." means cutting the Pentagon budget?

Rethugs like gates and his crony contractors always invoke "national security needs" when they want to rob future taxpayers more and more just to enrich themselves even more than they do, fy in fy out.

They want empire at the expense of MEDICARE, UI and SS, a slow but unavoidable impoverishment of the people, which will ultimately destroy the country (all empire fall). The question is, to who's benefits??

[Cherchez la Femme]

122. Who the F*** is president?!

Does Obama work for Gates?

Unbelievable, these excuses...

[NJmaverick]

53. I see Van Jones comments fell on depth ears

:eyes:

[Tarheel_Dem]

30. I hate using this term, but here goes....Van Jones "under the progressive bus" in 3...2...1..?

Van will soon find out that when the netroots go into mob mode, they can be just as vicious as the Breitbart's of the world. Sorry Van. :hug:

[CakeGrrl]

32. Exactly.

Some of those who cast him as yet another sacrificial victim under Obama's bus wheels < /tired cliche > now throw him under their own. Funny, isn't it?

[Tarheel_Dem]

34. I'm with Bootinup...Perhaps if Van had said it while wearing a "woodchuck" sock on his hand...

his request might have been received much better. :rofl:

[Spazito]

81. LOL, so very true...

I have been reading the thread and laughing at how quickly Mr. Jones landed under the bus after he had been so recently put on a pedestal because he was 'another victim' of the Obama Administration.

[impik]

43. He's already there. Go check FDLbaggers

[Tarheel_Dem]

44. Well, I knew HamPSTer, and her followers, would want to be among the first.

It's funny, this "bus" they're always talking about. Who knew that all this time, they had their very own? And, FWIW, I wouldn't enter that cesspool for all the money in the world. Does that make me "unstrong"? :shrug:

[BootinUp]

45. It makes you a stand for nothing worthless idot

like me. lol.

[Tarheel_Dem]

50. "Worthless" & "anti-strong". We're a miserable lot, aren't we?

:toast:

[spoony]

73. Impik posting strategy...just add "bagger," omit "nt" at all costs.

[Kahuna]

35. Play along Van Jones. You've lost the plot. Obama threw you under the bus..

REMEMBER?

:sarcasm:

[impik]

38. There goes Van Jones under the purity bus! Next!!

[Hissyspit]

62. I haven't thrown Van Jones under any bus, but let's ask Shirley Sherrod what she thinks about this

administration and throwing people under the bus.

[Kahuna]

154. She already said. She SUPPORTS the president...

Nice try though. :rofl:

[Hissyspit]

212. That's beside the point.

Haw, haw. :(

[Cha]

69. Too bad for them.. People like Van Jones and Shirley Sherrod

know who the enemy is and whose work for change they admire.

[Common Sense Party]

46. The captain of the Titanic didn't keep circling back for another swipe of the 'berg.

"The first hit didn't do enough damage! Let's keep doing the same thing and see what happens!"

[Political Tiger]

47. K & R!

n/t

[flamingdem]

49. Well put nt

[ProgressOnTheMove]

67. Well done Van Jones, this is a fight that is so bigger than our smaller differences if corporations

win we lose forever. The critique would be valid if we had a great alternative party to go to, we haven't this is the best shot they are doing their best, despite what's said to the contrary Pres. Obama is giving his best shot up against a lot of established power. LBJ would in today's political landscape even with his no nonsense style, Pres. Obama is the right person to handle this in his own imitable style.

[Cha]

68. Van Jones is a man of honor and integrity..

and an inspiration to those who aspire to focus on the big picture with lazer like intensity.

[MikeW]

74. he's a 9/11 truther ... says it all

[Common Sense Party]

76. What, exactly, does it say?

[defendandprotect]

95. Maybe it says, he only right 50% of the time?

[Cherchez la Femme]

123. Hiya def!

:hi:

Great to see you! :D

[rug]

72. Not as long as his agenda includes Afghanistan.

[zulchzulu]

75. I stood in the streets doing grassroots support for Obama so that netroots can bitch

It's sometimes disheartening to see how some will put Obama under the bus for the absolute sheer almost infinitely complex issues at hand, but we all need to be vigilant at all costs.

Think of it as the last surf wave to ride while you bodyboard. You want to get the full thrust of the wave and go as absolutely as far and crazily as you can. If you hold back or play it safe, that chance is lost.

I'm sure most of the "netroots" understand where we are and what can be done in the amount of time we've had a chance to turn things around. It's good for all the voices to make themselves heard and to educate each other on how to get realistic accomplishments done before it all gets ripped away.

[erodriguez]

98. This whole throw obama under the bus makes no sense

After all hes driving the bus and is the one who is running over the teachers that helped elect him.

[Cherchez la Femme]

124. Y'know what? So did I

And if it goes against my conscience or I feel it's a cop-out

I'll bitch all I want, TYVM

[Cherchez la Femme]

126. Additonally

"what can be done in the amount of time we've had "

Are you serious? Going on two years now?

Seriously? You're not being facetious?


--Squandering majorities in both the House and Senate sure to be lost come November?!
Against the same party who pushed through EVERY piece of their legislation when they had the same majority all the while treating the minority --us-- as nonentities?!
While the Democratic response was to just ineffectually whine?!
Oh, and not DO anything even while the Supreme Court was stacked with YOUNG, ACTIVIST WINGNUTS?!
While saying, Droopy-Dawg style, that they were keeping their "powder dry"?! :puke:
The same Democrats who also complained while having the majority that they COULDN'T get their legislation passed?!

--With deliberately giving The Party of NO more than their share of seats at the table (when we really didn't have to give them any seats in the first place, much less pay any attention to them whatsoever! (Which actually would still be treating them kinder than they did us, given that we didn't shut the fucking lights out on them inside the very seat of government, no less?))
With the result of guaranteeing our legislation would be incredibly watered down or outright killed? And we KNEW that would happen?!

--Telling the U.S. citizens that "Republicans keep US HONEST"?! *clutching heart*
Implying that we, Democrats, wouldn't be "honest" without Republican intercession or intervention?!


*Please insert loong string of cuss words here*


F* Chess. F* Pragmatism. F* Corporatism.
And FUCK this Cult of Personality!

Fukitall.

You wanna adore like a Bushbot? No criticism past your lips, it's all good? Fine. Have at it, your prerogative to do whatever you want to do.
But DON'T you DARE imply or worse, tell me straight out that I have to do what you and they do!

I WILL speak out against what I feel is WRONG no matter what fucking letter follows after ANY politicians name. End of story.


See? Now you got me capitalizing. Dammit. :P

[DRoseDARs]

79. Sorry, Van. Couldn't hear you over the engine noise from the bus you got thrown under.

:shrug:

[JoeyT]

82. He's not under my bus.

Though I don't have a bus, but he wouldn't be under it if I did.
I think he's wrong, and that criticism serves a useful purpose.
Or have we all forgotten NAFTA, which lefties of all stripes were told to be quiet about because it would be fixed later. Then when asked why his policies were so right-wing Clinton said something to the effect of "Because the left wasn't fighting them.".

It also allows people to blow off steam. Rather than reducing the chance of Dems being elected, I'd argue that it increases it. Being able to talk with like-minded people about problems tends to make people less pissed off about them rather than more.

If I wanted a perpetual echo-chamber, I'd be a conservative Republican and watch Fox. Democrats and the left should be above that.

[FrenchieCat]

83. Van Jones is from my part of the hood.....

and when I look at those who think they know more than him....
and Obama for that matter, both had done more for poor people,
and the disadvantaged by the time that they were 25, than most
here typing on the Internet will ever do.

Judging is easy, but making a real difference
in the lives of millions; well, that's priceless,
and that's what those two have done.

[Vattel]

85. van jones's big idea was dumb

fight poverty with green jobs. hysterical.

[Kahuna]

155. Aye! Can you cut that statement down to a signature line? Because

It would be just perfect. :wow:

[Vattel]

84. van who?

[Spitzbub]

91. Exactly!

I like the president. I very much admire him. I worked for the man. But I'm ON THE SIDE of the working man.

When the president moves in a way that is against the interests of the working man, I will push him in the right direction, or I will oppose him.

Jones probably said many things and this statement is the one led with by the reporter. But no sir, I will not lie down. I will not march in blind lockstep like the Bush cult I so despised.

[BigBearJohn]

93. Just eat your slop and be happy about it. It's better than elephant crap.

[defendandprotect]

94. The ship has to get turned around . . . it's moving in the wrong direction .. .

and will continue to move in the wrong direction until the DLC/right wingers are

removed from the administration -- Geithner, Bernanke, Summers, etal -- Emmanuel --

We all know the Blue Dogs have to go, as well --

[defendandprotect]

96. If the President wants help with things...why not call out Democrats to demonstrate??

Where were the rallies for single payer -- 76%+ of the country wanted a government

run program?

Who was ignoring the Democrats then?

What about Emmanuel and his nasty tongue? Has Van Jones failed to notice all of that?

If they want support for Obama . . . what is it for -- do they expect us to support the

"Cat Food Commission"??????????????????/

When are they going to call us out to support ending DADT, or MEDICARE FOR ALL, SOCIAL SECURITY

and MEDICARE????

Wouldn't that be something to see?

Maybe President Obama would like us to come out to support the wars the Democrats have been

financing for more than 3 years now?

How about an anti-WAR rally -- would Van Jones and the administration like that?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. Yes, Obama had the most enthusiastic campaign volunteers I've seen since the days of Robert Kennedy

If he had WANTED single-payer health care or a robust public option, he could have rallied the election volunteers to campaign for it in their communities, and they would have done it.

[defendandprotect]

248. Absolutely agree with you . . . .

and silence is also a response -- !!

:)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. The problem isn't that Obama isn't doing "enough"

It's that he's actively doing the wrong things.

[erodriguez]

99. agreed

[SILVER__FOX52]

100. He ( and you ) can kiss my ass...............

We're not twits like Conservatives. If he wants me to shutup, then he better start showing me what his game plan is because I'm not seeing it.

[Hekate]

101. KnR for Mr. Jones

[sabrina 1]

102. Now would be a good time for Obama to hire Van Jones

back. Show the scum who slimed him that they no longer have any power.

In case anyone doesn't remember, Glen Beck et al told the country that Van Jones was a felon, that he had spent six months in jail. It was a lie. But Democrats, once again, rushed to appease the right and he was thrown under the bus.

I admire Van Jones, and for his own future, he's doing the right thing. But for the benefit of THIS country someone is going to have to start standing up to the thugs and liars on the right or there are going to be a lot more Shirley Sherrods.

Every year at Netroot Nation the message has been 'don't rock the boat' and look where we are. Sorry, it's a bad message as we have seen.

[Triana]

103. I love this guy. n/t

[deadinsider]

106. Ride the iceberg folks

2008 was all the help he, and the Dem's, needed; and Obama was the one who promised 'hope' and 'change.' We took him for his word, and when calling him out on on it, are told we are accountable for his agenda not living up to his promises. Lame.

Also: no one aboard the Titanic was saved by pragmatically catching a ride on the very iceberg that did it in...

[FrenchieCat]

108. Can you elaborate?

2008 was all the help he and the Dems needed?

[defendandprotect]

109. They may not actually be listening to liberals/progressives...but we have gotten loud enough

for them to acknowledge they can HEAR us at least!!

This is pitiful . . .

"I can't stand it. President Obama volunteered to be the captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg.

Obama didn't "volunteer" for anything -- he campaigned to be President -- quite willingly and

eager to make it, btw.

This is a bit more melodramatic way of saying to the left once again -- "shut up!" --

[Number23]

110. Go get'em Van! You fine hunk of smart, chocolate man!

I have a bit of a crush... :blush:
And stuff like this is EXACTLY why. He is a smart man who knows good and well enough to be a huge supporter of this President.

Happy to rec

[WCGreen]

112. Love this guy.....

[avaistheone1]

114. There shall be no criticism of the president.

As far as that policy goes Van Jones can stick a van sock in it.


:hi:

[Cherchez la Femme]

115. A lot of Dems wanted the job

it's no reason to give anyone in that position a 4-year duration free pass

Personally I find that "advice" downright insulting.

[mikelgb]

125. he said knock off the bullshit? really? where?

[Imperfect]

215. Nope. It's editorializing by the OP

Jones did not use those words.

[Bluesbreaker]

127. Van Jones parrots the DLC meme on this administration

Van Jones can bugger off. Obama's record of caving to right, stiffing the left and enabling the agenda of the corporatocracy is well established. It can't be expunged by his flunkies telling us not to believe our lying eyes.

[jefferson_dem]

128. What's a DLC? Anyway, welcome back to DU!

:hi:

[Exilednight]

135. It stands for Democratic Leadership Council and is what is responsible for .............

moving the Democratic party further to the right of the political spectrum. You know, because tae-baggers, neocons, neoreaganites, and noncompassionate conservatives need more help. So some not so great minds within the Democratic Party decided to set up the DLC to help them out.

This is what is pissing off many within the base. Obama ran to the left of the DLC - early DLC backing went to Hillary - and now he's moved into the DLC camp.

[HughMoran]

139. Are all your posts going to be constructed around the 'DLC' meme?

Are we there yet ... are we there yet ... are we there yet ....

[joeybee12]

131. I'll give the guy credit for loyalty, but essentially to not challenge Obama's worthless agenda...

is what the bullshit is.

[inna]

132. completely misdirected. what garbage. unrec.

[glowing]

137. He didn't volunteer.. If I remember correctly, he campaigned for 2 yrs.

He raised tons of money. He made the country believe in progress and forward motion. Hope again, at the bleakest times of our lives.. AND now, its change but not the changes we wanted or expected. Health care is the perfect example. Most in this country would love the public option or Medicare for All program.. We got enslaved to the corporate ins. co's who take money and deny claims. Feeling like a pawn; used tool doesn't feel all that good. He had the ground swell.. and refused to really use the bully pulpit to ram thru the agendas that this country needs to survive.

[bread_and_roses]

141. Obama and the Democrats have wasted the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity handed to them

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/opinion/29herbert.html?_r=1&ref=bobherbert

All the crowing in the world about the administration’s legislative accomplishments — last year’s stimulus package, this year’s health care reform, etc. — is not enough to lift the gloom...

... maybe if we were grading papers, there would be a fair number of decent marks to be handed out.

But Americans struggling in a down economy are worried about the survival of their families. Destitution is beckoning...

...There is a widespread feeling that only the rich and well-placed can count on Washington’s help, and that toxic sentiment is spreading like the oil stain in the gulf, with ominous implications for President Obama and his party. It’s in this atmosphere that support for the president and his agenda is sinking...

Maybe if we were grading papers...on a curve. That's how I see the endless recitations of the few bones Obama has thrown to real change and reform.

Obama came into the Presidency with more than a wind at his back - he had a typhoon of real people power. Millions of us ready and willing to hit the streets for him, to fight for him, to support him. That's not "political capital" it's real power - people power, the hardest to harness, most valuable of any resource.

And from the very day of the inauguration on he's not just thrown it away, he's supported people like Rahm who actively despise it.

None of us who follow politics and issues at any depth are or ever have been unaware of the challenges Obama faced in a rotten Congress filled with Blue Dogs and Corporate tools. But we were standing ready to support the agenda we voted for, we were ready to support the candidate we campaigned for. On the most practical of levels, throwing that away was politically stupid, and the calamities we face are likely to go far beyond the rah rah team of politics.

Well, we haven't seen that candidate....oh, since the campaign trail. And all that energy is dissipated, many of those networks dissolved, those of us still active will have to keep fighting the insurance vampires (which many of us have been doing for 20 years or more and had hoped to be done with, to be able to put our energies toward other critical issues) for the rest of our lives now that we have the bastard step-child of health care reform to contend with).

Yes, grading on a curve Obama is "better than Bush." So what? Any of the D primary contenders would have been "better than Bush" ... though in some cases not by much. And that's what we got - better than Bush, but not by much.

The Banksters and Insurance Vampires are still fat and happy, however they squeal at the labyrinthine and loophole laced "reforms" - they knew what could and should have happened.

Well, I'm not grading on a curve. I am grading President Obama against candidate Obama - the candidate I supported. It's no satisfaction to me that the grade is a fail. It is rather a debilitating grief and regret for what could have been.

[HughMoran]

142. Wow, 50 unrecs

I WANT MY SQUIRREL NOW!

[NJmaverick]

162. I bet most of those unrecs came from people who formally sang Van Jone's praise

[HughMoran]

164. no doubt

:eyes:

[leveymg]

143. Here's the beef: under volunteer Titanic Capt. Obama, the rich are still getting all the lifeboats.

and the 3rd Class passengers in steerage, and much of the Middle-Class in 2nd, are just as doomed as they were under White Star Line Capt. Bush.

Take that metaphor and choke on it.

[HughMoran]

159. Hogwash class warfare bullshit

:eyes:

[leveymg]

171. Love your sense of satire.

Class warfare? We haven't even begun to fight!

[Cary]

170. The rich always get lifeboats.

Always have and always will. That's an immutable fact of life. The idea is not to take away their lifeboats but rather to make sure enough of it is spread around as fairly and evenly as possible.

[jimlup]

144. Yeah, Jones is right here

We have to support Obama and the democratic congress as hard as possible right now. It is the only play we have.

In my opinion criticism is warranted but in needs to stay within the family because of the coming midterms and the ferocity of the right wing attack.

[Raineyb]

145. What a surprise another STFU post with a lot of recs.

God forbid we should actually stand up for what we believe and consistently speak up for what we want. What a bunch of bastards who dare think if they make their voices heard, constantly write their congress-critter, or protest for what they want, that maybe something of what they are looking for is included.

Instead we get people who are protesting and trying to stand up for progressive ideas locked out of the hearing rooms, called fucking retarded, arrested when they dare make their voices heard, and we now get Van Jones, who couldn't be bothered to stand up for his damn self against the right wing smear machine, telling people to STFU? Spare me! Who the hell is he to give advice when he's so damn scared of the right wing that he buckled like a god-damned belt. I know someone who ought to STFU and it's NOT the net roots.

[burnsei sensei]

148. When President Obama said "change"

I knew exactly what I wanted.
I still want it.
I'm still waiting for it.
And I don't see it.

Single-payer healthcare
End to both wars
End to gulag
Repeal and re-writing of PATRIOT acts
Strict financial regulations that create safe spaces in the economy-- e.g. Glass-Steagall
Public investment that builds infrastructure
A time for re-vitalizing instead of killing off education
A time for creating a food economy based on local consumption for national security

Yes, I knew exactly what I wanted.
And I still want it.
And President Obama? It's doubtful he wants any of these things.
Are you saying that the president and the corrupt, cross-party international class he represents are to dictate what I want to me?

[HughMoran]

163. Oh, dear god

I WANT IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!one!!

[SoxFan]

166. The Veruca Salt Wing of the Democratic Party

ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME

[Lydia Leftcoast]

178. Oh, that tired DLC meme, again

No, it's not selfishness.

It's desperation. It's having a clear-eyed view of what the country needs to regain its reputation in the world and ensure a continued decent standard of living for the average person and being unbearably frustrated that Obama is doing the opposite of what needs to be done.

If Bush were doing these same things, you'd be indignant. But it's "our" guy, so it's automatically all right, is it?

In other words, politics is not a matter of principle to you guys. It's a team sport.

[BootinUp]

186. Clear eyed perspective is not really something

your post demonstrates.

If Obama's agenda, which is what he was nominated on and moved forward on, is SO WRONG to you, then that indicates to me that you probably favor a third party approach to US National politics. Yes or No?

I will assume yes regardless of your answer. You will never see a third party candidate elected to President, that is my prediction. And efforts to make that happen from the left, will weaken the left and allow the right to take back control. This is not debateable, its fact.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

191. I favor anyone who wants to move in the right direction

And could you please show me where Obama campaigned on keeping extraordinary renditions, letting the Blue Dogs rule the roost while making the Progressives give in to what the Blue Dogs want, letting the financial robber barons keep their bonuses "because contracts are sacred" while forcing the auto workers to make concessions in violation of THEIR contracts, letting the Republicans set the agenda, and all in all, acting as if his main job is to avoid offending the right wing, the corporations, and the military-industrial complex?

I voted for Obama, although I knew he wasn't a real progressive. But he's turned out worse than even a jaded political skeptic like me could imagine.

If you can't see that, then you have a team-based approach to politics, not a principled one.

I have not yet decided what to do for 2012. If Obama discovers his inner FDR in the meantime, I'll vote for him, although now, he happens to be channeling Herbert Hoover and basically continuing Bush's agenda.

For 2010, I will vote for my Congressman Keith Ellison, one of the mostly good guys, and for whichever Dem ends up with the Minnesota gubernatorial nomination against the despicable and stupid Republican Emmer.

[BootinUp]

193. My suggestion would be

to try and understand why he made the choices he did in those cases. And let go of the ridiculous narrative. Not saying you would ever agree with the choices, but each of them is made on an individual basis for different reasons. And I am quite certain he considers various viewpoints before making them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

196. You mean like refusing to even meet with single payer advocates and

having closed-door sessions with health insurance company executives?

What were his reasons for that, pray tell, other than wanting to stay in the good graces of the corporate elites?

If he had started by insisting on single payer, we might have gotten a strong public option or a gradual lowering of the Medicare-eligible age (with the addition of younger, healthier people shoring up that program's finances) as the compromise position.

Nope, he's either weak and overly eager to please the Big Boys, or he's one of them.

[BootinUp]

199. Single payer, fine lets start there

It lost as a viable POLITICAL plan in 2008 in something called an election. No further discussion of this history is really productive. It is productive to seek to support candidates in the future who are for it.

Closed door meetings. The admin saw the challenges of getting reform done and decided that they must take an active roll in the negotiations. Whats so hard to understand about that? We barely got the thing passed as it is. The answer to your question: To get a bill passed.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

205. To get a bill passed, even if it included strong-arming the Progressive Caucus

(and giving away the store to the Blue Dogs in the process), despite some REALLY BAD provisions in the bill?

Yeah, he wanted to pass a bill, any bill, so badly that he lost sight of what the bill was supposed to be about--providing affordable, universal health coverage.

Now some countries, like Germany, do cover everyone through the private sector. But there's a difference. In Germany, the government tells the insurance companies what to do, not the other way around. In Germany, the insurance companies are on a choke chain.

Obama ended up with a bill still leaves out millions of Americans and will be unaffordable to many. (I checked the proposals for the insurance pool. The bronze option would be barely affordable for me, since I'm over fifty, and it would provide LESS coverage than the useless policy I dropped a few months ago because its cost prevented me from paying for actual care.)

"To pass a bill."

To score a goal for the team. Never mind that it was the other team's goal--a beefed-up version of the Massachusetts Plan.

See, that's where politics as team sport gets you.

[BootinUp]

209. The close door negotiation

was not to help the blue dogs get what they want, quite the opposite.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

224. Sounded to me like the Blue Dogs wanted what the insurance companies wanted

They wanted to make sure that we ended up with only pretend health care reform.

[BootinUp]

227. What I read about the negotiations

is that the administration tried to get a deal where the pharma and insurance co wouldn't fight the public option. They got a deal with pharma not with ins companies.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

228. So what if the insurance companies fought the public option?

Who runs the country anyway?

Why do they have to agree to it for it to pass?

What a wimpy approach!

So corporations can prevent the passage of any laws that inconvenience them?

A SAVVY president would have gone to the American people and said, "The insurance companies want to make sure that all health insurance is kept private, that you are forced to buy their overpriced products, and that there is no public option. Well, I don't care what THEY want. We're going to have a strong public option that has no profit motive, lower administrative costs, modest copays, no deductibles, and no exclusions, and it will be open to every American who wants it. I will not sign any bill that does not contain this provision."

That's what a LEADER would have done.

Asking them what they would agree to was a sign of weakness. It was like putting a "Kick Me" sign on his butt.

A position of STRENGTH would have been, "You guys have alienated the American people through your greed and callousness, so we are going to give you some real competition for a change. Adapt or die. If you block this bill, we'll scrap it and start over next year by building up public opinion in favor of a single payer plan."

[BootinUp]

230. Lessons learned from history

argue strongly against your advice.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

235. It worked for Reagan when he wanted tax cuts for the wealthy

Or are you saying that any president who goes up against the corporate interests will get assassinated or brought down by a scandal?

[BootinUp]

236. Think 1993.

The lessons from 93.

1) Allow Congress to work out the details taking from his basic framework so a bill actually comes together.

2) Be prepared for an onslaught of television ads from the health care industry that could turn public opinion against them.

3) Public opinion on government control of healthcare is fairly split without strong advantage on either side.

By negotiating up front with healthcare industry they hoped to avoid the problem with number 2, and did in the case of pharma. But whether they did that or not, it became clear later that a public option wasn't going to happen, wasn't getting through the Senate. And single payer? you must be joking or are simply deluded on that. Maybe you think the President has some kind of powers he never used. He spoke forcefully and persuasively on the issue when he needed to in my opinion.

Are we done with this subject now? I feel like we are done.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

239. How do we know?

Obama did not even try to get single payer.

HE DID NOT EVEN TRY.

Yes, I know that single payer could never have passed the Senate. But with single payer as the STARTING POINT, we could have had the public option as the "compromise position."

He could have done a lot of things. He could have sent back any bill that lacked a public option. He could have sent back any bill that retained deductibles--deductibles being a feature unknown in any other country that I am aware of. He could have reminded the insurance companies PUBLICLY that they obey the law, not the other way around.

He failed to take advantage of the tremendous surge of popular support that he had.

He did not counter Fox News' lies--perhaps because the actual bill he had planned was NOT attractive. Because of the vagueness of the Obama administration's response to the right wing, I talked to lots of liberal but low-information people who THOUGHT that health care reform was going to be single payer. As such, they were enthusiastic, and they were surprised when I told them that the Obama admin. had no intention of single payer.

When I told them the truth about the Obama program, the requirement to buy private insurance from a loosely regulated market, they were disappointed.

[dflprincess]

243. Obama got the deal he wanted with the insurance companies

just a week or so ago his little buddy, Rahmn, was crowing how they passed "reform" that kept the "private delivery system" intact. Though how anyone can claim keeping the private insurers in charge of access to care is "reform" is beyond me.

[BootinUp]

245. I think you confuse 2 separate things

In one instance a bill is trying to be passed that would include the public option.

In another a spin is being put on something that was the best bill they could get for purely political reasons.

[dflprincess]

246. I'm not confusing anything

had Obama wanted a public option there would have been one. Instead, he dropped all pretense of that he considered a public option necessary as well as dropping his opposition to mandates.

The whole point of this scam was to shore up another corrupt industry that would have collapsed on its own if it didn't receive a large transfer of private and public funds into it.

All we got out the this was forced "coverage" with no guarantee of having access to care. In another few years we'll be worse off than we were when the sham healthcare debate started. The number of uninsured will be climbing and those with insurance will find they are paying more and more and getting less.

[BootinUp]

247. just another conspiracy theory nt

[dflprincess]

249. Rahm has has publicly said the administration considers saving the insurance companies

"an accomplishment".

That's hardly a theory.

[BootinUp]

252. like I said

you are taking an interview where Rahm was spinning things to sound good to business CEOs, that was not even a direct question or answer on the subject of negotiations. You are constructing a conspiracy theory.

However there has been factual reporting on the subject,
-----------------------------------
But unlike the drug companies, the insurers have not pledged specific cost cuts. And insurers have also steadfastly vowed to block Mr. Obama’s proposed government-sponsored insurance plan — the biggest sticking point in the Congressional negotiations.

The drug industry trade group, the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, also opposes a public insurance plan. But its lobbyists acknowledge privately that they have no intention of fighting it, in part because their agreement with the White House provides them other safeguards.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/06/health/policy/06insure.html?_r=1
--------------------------------------------
there have been specific policy proposals, and statements from Obama on what he favored. He clearly favored the House Bill which included it.

So just stop. For the love of pete!

[dflprincess]

254. He did not clearly favor the House bill

in fact he back pedaled and pretended that he had never said a public option was necessary to reform. Finally saying he did not really seeing the need for a public option may be the only truthful thing he said during the debate because he sure didn't have any trouble selling us out to the insurance companies.

Earlier in the debate I never did understand why he insisted on keeping them involved in the system when he was the one saying we needed a public option "to keep them honest". There he was, admiting he knew the insurance companies are crooked and can't be trusted but then he dropped the pretense and had no trouble signing a bill that protects the status quo, digs them in deeper and still doesn't guarantee that most of us will have access to care.

[Bobbie Jo]

207. LOL

:rofl:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

152. Mr Jones, I believe this is your bus....

The VERY SAME people who were stout defenders of Van Jones a year ago are now condemning him for telling the obvious truth.

What?! You won't condemn Obama? STFU!!

[NJmaverick]

153. true

[HughMoran]

161. File under "no, I'm not kidding"

:eyes:

[Demeter]

167. Physician, Heal Thyself

[Enrique]

169. I think Obama's agenda includes privatizing Social Security

I can't get behind that, I'm going to need Social Security. Our country needs it. Lose S.S., goodbye America.

[BootinUp]

175. Anyone who believes this bullshit please raise your hand

so I can ridicule you all at once.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[katandmoon]

172. Bullshit. Obama's doing exactly what he wants to do. He has repeatedly signaled his disdain of the

netroots and he has no intention of being influenced by the netroots. The sooner the pretense is dropped that he does, the better. He takes his orders from Fox and Wall Street.

[Steely_Dan]

176. As a candidate...

Obama played to win. As the President, he is playing not to lose.

-P

[ruggerson]

180. Obama is a professional politician

He chose this as a career.

He wasn't a seer sitting in a cave somewhere and the downtrodden masses came along and begged him to save the country.

He's an ambitious, smart, calculating professional politician.

He asked US for this job. He WANTED this job. He is OUR employee.

We have every right to both praise and criticize his performance as we see fit, so as to guide him to do what we wish him to do.

[tomp]

183. thank you. any other perspective is ridiculous. nt

[BootinUp]

184. Sure, but its also important

to not impede him from the agenda we elected him on, that he is working on. I don't see anyone on the left saying don't disagree, don't criticize, its the bald distortions and threatening stances that are not constructive.

[fascisthunter]

181. Sorry, but you were thrown off the ship

we understand giving presidents a pass but he's gotten way too many at this point. Sorry if we piss you off but it's our job to vent frustration to let him and others know where we stand. This isn't a totalitarian dictatorship where people are supposed to fall into line with every excuse used.

[tomp]

182. van jones carries no political cred with me.

got thrown under the bus by obama and comes back to ask for more and then has the
temerity to use the "didn't get their pony" argument against progressives. there are a
several slang expressions for that type of behavior but i'll pass on typing them in the
interest of civility and out of respect for the good work he does otherwise.

[Fire1]

185. He's truly better than I am. I'd still be fuming! n/t

[scentopine]

187. The rich got their lifeboats by drowning the rest of us, he's leading like a drunkin sailor -nt

[scentopine]

188. For seafaring analogies, Obama is more like the Captain of the Deep Hope before it exploded -nt

[radhika]

189. Van, the "Iceberg" we hit was built by ....

human agents - Wall Street, faux government agencies, lobbyists and complicit Congress. Despite the massive loss of jobs and capital, the Iceberg is still floating. Right next to the boat. It appears to be only bigger, richer and more politically powerful. Captain Obama doesn't get it that the Iceberg is NOT our FRIEND! It's gotta go, if WE will want to sail on to safety.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

192. And the iceberg was built with the help of members of the Democratic Party

who were so desperate to appear "business friendly" and keep those juicy corporate contributions coming that they forgot what We the People hired them for--to look out for the best interests of the nation as a whole, including those who don't fund PACs.

[Overseas]

194. You really do Van Jones a disservice by presenting him this way.

He gave a very compassionate, empathetic speech-- understanding people's frustrations but encouraging them to keep working for change.

He didn't say-- cut the bullshit. He said we have been experiencing times of hope and heartache. He didn't slam people for wanting more progressive change. He understood our frustration. He talked seriously about how hard it actually is to effect change in Washington, and to remember the things that had been accomplished so far.

He asked the audience to keep working for change even though he shares their frustrations, knowing the seriousness of climate change and the need for more rapid action.


He didn't say-- "Shut up and stop criticizing Obama already, you jerks!" He asked them not to give up hope in spite of the disappointments but to keep working for change because they understand the urgency of the need for change.

[bvar22]

204. So the OP essentially did a "Breitbart".

Figures.

"By their works you will know them."

[Overseas]

219. Well I wouldn't go that far. But the Right does want us to stay home.

So when Van's saying "Please keep fighting for more significant changes," it hurts the cause to summarize it all by saying he told progressives to "stop the bullshit."

The Right is hoping we'll all be discouraged because that makes the voting margins slimmer and easier to explain away anomalies in our vulnerable voting systems.

[lsewpershad]

195. Thank you

Well said.

[IndianaGreen]

200. How about watching the entire 26 minutes and formulate your own opinion

of Van Jones remarks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rira7HvzWOg&feature=player_embedded

[Roland99]

201. Except instead of radioing for help after hitting the iceberg, Obama continues to keep hitting it.

All of his top economic positions are filled with Bank of America fucks who helped put us in this economic downturn.

He's turned a cold heart to the gay community.

He gave the for-profit insurance industry a huge gift.

He's continued and escalated a fruitless war in Afghanistan.

He's allowed BP to commandeer the Coast Guard and coverup the lack of cleanup efforts.

He's continued the PATRIOT Act abuses.

He hasn't closed Guantanamo Bay yet.


Sorry, not seeing much change other than the letter designating the President's political part after the last name.

[readmoreoften]

206. OH... POOR BABY! Progressives give you boo-boo? The administration needs to grow the fuck up.

[suzie]

216. Perhaps those whose experience of politics is posting on internet forums

would do well to take that advice.

[Cha]

208. Van Jones is a man of integrity who likes and

supports President Obama..my kind of person.

[MzShellG]

225. Absolutely.

I like him. Some people don't appreciate someone speaking common sense.

[Overseas]

229. But on the other hand, "Van Jones tells netroots to keep fighting" works really well

Heartbroken as we may be, that the powers of unbridled commerce have become profoundly powerful, we have definitely made some strides. Major strides that made little news, that we could build upon. Stimulus II. Infrastructure running smoothly saves energy, so it is still very green to conduct regular repairs. We have Republican mismanagement to clean up at every level-- Republican government-haters ran our country for 8 years and let our infrastructure decay. We've got thousands of engineers and workers ready to jump in and make our country safer for small businesses to flourish nationwide.

Let's hang around and push for more green energy projects nationwide too-- solar panels on rooftops in abandoned towns, damn wind generating income for other lonely towns. I just wish there were a way to incorporate more of the greening we're doing, like mass transit, into our national security budget.

So yes, Van Jones is asking me to get real. He is saying-- Ouch! Yes! but let's continue to fight to get more change for the American people. Yes, alas, the Wisdom of the Private Sector is a cruel behemoth it is taking time to subdue, even in the interest of sustaining more of earth's unique ecosystems for our successors. Earth family values have been overcome.

We don't want to rush toward the rapture with the Republicans. I don't want to reee-wind with them-- back to the dark Cheney days.

They have mobilized so I will do so too.

[ibegurpard]

231. I have no intention of helping him with his agenda

that agenda includes privatization of public schools and the institutionalization of pharma and insurance companies into our healthcare system under the guise of "reform."
He can go to his corporate contributors for help.

[dflprincess]

244. Exactly -

I'm done with politicians who work against my interests regardless of what letter they put after their name.

To continue the Titanic analogy = I'm not giving my seat in the lifeboat up to one of my "betters" from First Class.

[Ross K]

232. Van's da Man!

:thumbsup:

[boppers]

238. Hey look, a quote out of context designed to inflame! How unusual!

Actual context:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=387750&mesg_id=387750