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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:10 PM
Original message
Obama: General showed 'poor judgment'
WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama said Tuesday that he wants to hear directly from Gen. Stanley McChrystal before deciding whether to fire the Afghanistan war commander over a disparaging magazine story that has enraged the White House and threatened to undermine the administration.

Obama said McChrystal and his aides showed "poor judgment."

In his first comments on the matter, Obama said that he would meet with McChrystal at the White House on Wednesday and that Defense Secretary Robert Gates will be meeting with the commander as well.

"I think it's clear that the article in which he and his team appeared showed a poor — showed poor judgment," the president said, surrounded by members of his Cabinet at the close of their meeting. "But I also want to make sure that I talk to him directly before I make any final decisions."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37839756/ns/us_news-military/
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. IMHO Obama is saying he's lost trust in McChrystal
How do you keep a military commander after you've lost trust in them? After you've admitted to having lost trust?

IMHO, McChrystal is gone.




Tansy Gold
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Wouldn't you if you were Pres Obama?
McChrystal should have gone to Obama with his concerns.

If Obama ignored him, McChrystal should have resigned and then talked to the press.

The way McChrystal did it was tacky and irresponsible.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Oh, of course I would have. McC stepped on his own gimmick
and deserves to be canned.

My comment referred to Obama saying that he was reserving judgment, so to speak. He can't come out and say McC is fired, not until they've actually had their f2f. McC publicly declared his lack of trust in the CinC in the RS interview. Obama, with this statement, is returning the favor.

After that kind of exchange, I don't see how McC can be kept around. And if Obama either refuses to accept a offer to resign -OR- refuses to fire McC -OR- talks McC out of tendering a resignation, I think that diminishes the authority of the office of the president, which is NOT a good thing.

That said, I would not be surprised, based on past performance, if Obama does exactly that. His track record of putting "bipartisanship" ahead of everything else, even ahead of serious issues like health care, suggests that he might be more interested in mollifying an opponent (for what purpose, I have no idea, since it wouldn't work anyway) than in getting the job done.

But we'll see.



Tansy Gold
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Yep... I totally support President Obama accepting the resignation.
What McChrystal did wasn't "cool" at all.
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besdayz Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. aa
there are 2 issues here that need to be separated

1.personal attacks and demeaning comments should never be tolerated by the prez. so for that alone he should be gone.

2. if the issue is can a general disagree with higher ups, i frankly would encourage the open debate.
i was for it when all those generals resigned in teh bush administration and i'm for it now. it shouldn't matter
if i hated bush more than obama. honestly the whole afghan policy is FUBAR and this catch 22 vietnam talk about "progress" is insanity and
making it harder to distinguish the prevvious war policy from this.....


i haven't read the article but if it didn't amount to personal smears then he shouldn't be fired...


don't mistake this for any sympathy for mcrystal; i think he should be gone long before this for other reasons. he's
the douchebag who lied about the Tillman case.....
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DebbieCDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. So replace him with another general and we'll have the same outcome
a quagmire in Afghanistan going on forever.

It's Obama that's showing poor judgment by keeping up this BS. Pull the troops out now, stop throwing our money down a rathole.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. It just seems like this Administration is imploding
more and more every day. It's getting bad when the top military commander doesn't even show any respect for the President or at least the Office.
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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. WTF? Sorry, but this reflects poorly on McChrystal, not Obama
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I agree with you. I just think many people like pushing it all on Obama though. n/t
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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I guess so. Except for a few Repbulican boneheads...
...everything I've read in the media so far is focusing on how unprofessional McChrystal is. I haven't seen coverage suggesting this reflects poorly on Obama.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. No worries...you miss it in the media, you'll find it on DU. n/t
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. There is definitely something wrong in this Administration
I don't know if is Obama or his staff but one thing for sure there needs to be a shakeup. This Administration is starting to look like the Carter Administration. When people ask how you how you like Obama now it is getting embarrassing and hard to defend anymore.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. There's something wrong with the administration because Gen. M
is an asshole? :wtf:
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. What about the way the Administration screwed up healthcare
and how they have totally mishandled the BP disaster. Who the hell is in charge in the Whitehouse anyway? the BP disaster should have been a godsend for the democrats and Jindal looks like he is in charge.
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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Oh....you're joking. Got it.*
*
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Huh?
what does this have to do with loudmouthed General?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Hahahahahahahahaha!!!
You're funny.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. ...
:rofl:
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Unfortunately,
Pres. Obama selected and appointed McC. Poor choice? Poor judgment? Take your pick, because some of the shit about McC was well known BEFORE Obama picked him.

But of course those who feel the president is never wrong, makes no mistakes, and always uses perfect judgment are free to disagree with me.




TG
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Still the General is responsible for what he said
and for being a tool, geez.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I don't think anyone here believes that Obama is perfect or makes no mistakes....
as being human means that you may appoint someone somewhere who will end up being a fuck up. Is the direct action and/or comments of a 4 star general the instant reflection of the CIC who appointed him, or is the CIC mainly responsible with dealing with the 4 star general who made the irresponsible comments?

Did Barack Obama make this man a General, or was he already one at the time that Obama
was elected President?

In otherwords, not everything everyone else does in government can be directly blamed on Pres. Obama,
even if the buck stops there....as the buck has more than just one place to stop.

I do noticed that there are a few who have decided that everything is Obama's fault, no matter what it is. Are you one of those?
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Am I one of those who thinks everything is Obama's fault? No, I'm not.
Edited on Tue Jun-22-10 06:10 PM by Tansy_Gold
But I do think Obama has to take at least a little tiny bit of responsibility for his own decisions.

The buck always and ultimately stops on the President's desk. It may pause elsewhere on its journey, but it STOPS only once, and that's in the Oval Office. That's a responsibility Obama knowingly accepted when he chose to run for the office. He gets to take credit for his good decisions/appointments, but he also has to take the blame when he makes a bad one or when the appointee screws up if there was a likelihood of that screw-up based on information the President had prior to the appointment.

McChrystal was Obama's appointee as commander in Afghanistan (regardless when McChrystal earned the rank of general, since that's not at issue here), and the surge was Obama's policy.

Obama doesn't have responsibility for what McChrystal said or did, but Obama does have responsibility for appointing him. He chose to appoint someone who had a less than stellar record, and now he has to deal with the fall-out.



Tansy Gold
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. So Obama is responsible for words coming out of McCrystal's mouth
about Obama? That's interesting.

As for the responsibility of appointing McCrystal, yes, Obama did that.
But in the larger scheme of things, he has appointed hundreds of folks.....
and what is more important is what the president will do due to
this general's seemingly insubordination. That's more important than the fact
that the President may have mistaken the true nature of the character of a 4 star general
willingness to adhere to the chain of command.

As for the fall-out.....Obama has had to deal with plenty of fall out,
on some things that he was responsible for and others that he directly wasn't responsible for....
so there's nothing new with your statement.

What gets me are those that appear to believe that the President must be perfect or suffer detrimental fall-outs, and yet same persons believe that it is others who believe this President to be perfect. See, a little fall-out doesn't necessarily hurt a President, if like you said, the buck always stops only in one place, with the President....depending on how the matter is ultimately handled...something we won't know till it is handled.

It is however true that some want and are looking for fall-out instantly as events unfold,
as opposed to waiting to see what actually happens when all is said and done.
Are you one of those?
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. If you will read carefully what I wrote, I specifically wrote
that Obama DID NOT have responsibility for what McChrystal said or did.

Again -- Obama DID NOT have responsiblity for what McChrystal said or did.

Shall I make it clearer?


In the larger scheme of things, yes, Obama appoints many people and some them may screw up and some of them may have already screwed up and resigned, like the woman at the MMS. Okay, fine. The point is, however, that the discussion at hand is about General Stanley McChrystal, whom President Obama appointed to be commander in Afghanistan in charge of implementing the "surge." The discussion is also about whether or not McChrystal will resign, will offer to resign, or do nothing at all until Obama decides to fire him, demand his resignation, accept his resignation, or accept his offer to resign. None of these things have happened yet, and we are discussing the merits/possibilities of each.


As far as I know, no one (certainly not I) has blamed or credited the President for something he has yet to do. We are all "waiting to see what actually happens," and while we're waiting, we're speculating on the possible outcomes. Wanting and/or looking for "fall-out"? No, just discussing.



Tansy Gold
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. "When people ask how you how you like Obama now it is getting embarrassing and hard to defend anymor
Wow. That says more about you than it does about Obama.

Is there no issue that cannot be blamed on this President? How is a grown man with a lifetime career in the military acting like an idiot "making it hard for you to defend Obama?"

If Hillary gets gout, will this be blamed on him too?
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. He may be a loud mouth general but apparently
he is very frustrated with the this Administration for some reason. He said Obama didn't seem interested or engaged in the war in Afghanistan. I am glad I don't have a son or daughter in a war that the President doesn't seem interested in. It goes further than that the Administration made a total debacle of the HCR bill and then there is the BP disaster that has been totally mishandled from the start. there comes a time when you just can't make excuses any longer.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Do you believe that Obama "isn't interested in the war in Afghanistan?"
I swear, I have truly heard it all now. First it was he was a warmonger for escalating a war that many Americans supported and he said a dozen times he considered worth fighting and would continue.

Now, he "isn't interested" in Afghanistan. Good Lord, this running around in circles looking for a way to criticize everything this man does is almost laughable. As for the rest of your points, your assertion that the healthcare bill was a "debacle" as it's hailed by many as a great (if flawed) piece of progressive legislation is interesting. Your point that BP was mishandled would be a good one if you were putting the blame where it belonged - on BP. Since you don't seem to be doing that, I don't know what to tell you but your opinion is not one shared by many who are well read on the matter.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Well, I agree with you but I also disagree
Setting aside HCR, BP, and some of the other stuff (which I agree with you on), I don't think McChrystal likes anyone but McChrystal. He seems to have an ego problem -- He doesn't think he has to answer to anyone but himself. I think -- and I could be wrong -- he liked operating under boooosh/cheeeney because he could basically get away with whatever he wanted to get away with, such as the Pat Tillman thing, torture, etc.

And again, it's my understanding that the whole "surge" thing was pretty much McChrystal's idea, which Obama went along with -- it was, after all, part of his campaign that he would wind down Iraq and focus on Afghanistan -- but it's not going quite the way McChrystal seemed to think it would. So rather than taking the blame for his own shortcomings, McChrystal is blaming Obama for not being engaged or interested. First of all, saying something like that is not good form in general (pun intended). Second, it's contrary to military protocol. Third, it's pretty much just plain not true. Whether or not the President is "interested" or "engaged" has nothing to do with the General's success or failure in prosecuting the war.

Allow me to digress -- McChrystal's failure in Afghanistan is not Obama's fault. Obama didn't draw up the plans, approve the strategy and tactics, etc., etc., etc. But Obama did appoint McChrystal and did approve of the whole "surge" operation, which falls into that legal notion of "you can delegate rights, but you can't delegate responsiblity." Some may not understand the distinction between fault/blame and responsiblity, but it's crucial to understanding how this all plays out.

So McChrystal is failing in Afghanistan and he's blaming Obama in a petty, whiny, and very public way. Regardless how important he thinks he is, he's still subordinate to the President and he still serves at the President's pleasure -- meaning the President can fire his whiny ass. So in a sense, McChrystal has inadvertently given Obama an ultimatum: "Fire me, or give me whatever I want in Afghanistan (and if you do, maybe I'll apologize for all the mean things I said about you, or maybe I won't)."

McChrystal may have done this all on purpose. I don't pretend to know how the man's mind works and I won't speculate on that. But I don't really think he did, because his actions put the ball in Obama's court and Obama, as Commander in Chief, has a lot more options than McChrystal.

Now, if we assume McChrystal DID do it on purpose, what did he expect to gain? Did he really think the President would knuckle under to him? That says more really bad about McChrystal's state of mind than it does about Obama's policies. It suggests McChrystal is edging maybe a little bit toward mentally unstable, in my very humble and thoroughly non-professional opinion.

On the other hand, if McChrystal didn't do it on purpose to goad Obama into some kind of action (whatever that may have been), then it still suggests McChrystal isn't thinking too clearly. Why would he do such a thing? Dissing the CinC in print during wartime? Not good. Not good at all.

At that point, all the options are Obama's. McChrystal shot early, and now by the duelist's code of honor, his opponent has a clear, uncontested shot.

I would personally not be surprised if Obama "reconciled" with McChrystal and kept him on as commander in Afghanistan. That's been a pattern of his throughout the administration. I personally don't think it would be the best decision or even a smart one, but I wouldn't be surprised by it.

Such a decision would also suggest that Obama is reluctant, for whatever reasons, to admit EITHER that he made a mistake in appointing McChrystal in the first place and/or that he made a mistake in going along with the "surge" policy. People who are afraid to admit mistakes will often continue in behavior that they know is wrong because that's easier and less painful than admitting the mistake. They will even continue in that behavior knowing that it is personally harmful to them, because they believe they can bear the harm inflicted by the other better than they can bear the harm of appearing weak or wrong by admitting a mistake. (This is the syndrome of the battered spouse who stays with the batterer and defends the batterer despite risk of physical danger rather than admit the relationship is unhealthy. Been there, done that, seen it too many times to count.)

Personally, I DON'T THINK that's the case with Obama. Again, I'm not a professional; I'm not trying to psychoanalyze him. But I am looking at possible choices and possible motives for those choices.

Obama's choices come down basically to three:

1. Reconcile, maintain McChrystal in his position, and express unconditional support for McChrystal and the current policy in Afghanistan. I think this is unlikely. Possible, but unlikely.

2. Fire McChrystal, level charges of insubordination against him, etc., etc., etc. I think this is also unlikely because it puts too much focus ON McChrystal. As much as some of us might want to see him in a court-martial, I don't think it's going to happen.

3. Demand (privately) and then accept (publicly) McChrystal's resignation. It makes McChrystal a martyr, but less of a one than in #2. I think this is what will happen. It's not a win situation for Obama, but that's because of the nature of the war in Afghanistan, NOT because of McChrystal.

Both #2 and #3 make McChrystal a martyr, and if he has political ambitions (which I'm sure he does), I'm sure he'd rather get fired because that would give him more sympathy in the pro-war base, the bunch that thinks we "lost" in Vietnam because all the hippies kept the army from really going after the g**ks, blah, blah, blah. That faction is going to support McChrystal the same way they support Palin -- it's all emotion, no brain.


Ultimately, Obama's mistake was in thinking he could "win" in Afghanistan by following the same old unsuccessful strategy as his predecessors. Maybe he'll change course as a result of this. Maybe not. We'll have to wait and see.




Tansy Gold
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. There's a remedy for a top military commander in Afghanistan not
showing respect for the Commander in Chief.

I hope this Commander in Chief opts for that remedy.

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FightingIrish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. In the military, poor judgement gets people killed.
I can't believe someone who has risen that high in the Army would do something so stupid. Maybe he's pulling a Corporal Klinger.

President Obama should accept his resignation with no kind words of appreciation.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. Fire his ass
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-22-10 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. Obama can show better judgement by getting us out of Afghanistan n/t
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