What you're not seeing on the news from Az. Pics...and it's going to keep getting larger.

[jillan]

These people are being led away in handcuffs

[villager]

1. Some stealth Arizona teabagger already unrec'd this?

:shrug:

At least I cancelled 'em out...

[elocs]

155. Yes, the thread is so important that you had to use the very first response to point out an UnRec.

Since it now has over 300 Recs and is on the Front page, doesn't that seem a little silly? :shrug:

[Enthusiast]

159. No, it doesn't seem silly.

It illustrates how unreasonable these Arizona citizens and their legislators are. Who could unrec this? A Teabagger asshole that's who. Call'em out!

[Cha]

195. Not at all..these Unrecs need to be called out and I for one..

will continue to do it.

[elocs]

202. Congratulations! The UnRec trolls appreciate the attention.

Nice to see you are so accommodating.

[Cha]

210. That's your skewed point of view..they're sneaky..they

don't want the attention. Just wanna sneak around and Unrec important news like this.

And, thanks for giving it even more attention. Yay.

[elocs]

212. Right, as opposed to your skewed opinion.

You're welcome. Just trying to do my bit. By the bye, who was it who started this off with the very first reply whining about an UnRec? Yes the news was so very important that the very first response needed to be about an inconsequential UnRec. Silly indeed.

[Cha]

215. Good for the person who started this off by mentioning the unrec..

very valuble and thanks again for your continuing the attention to the unrecs.

[villager]

211. Apparently my reply was deemed so important by you, you had to point that out as well.

:shrug:

[elocs]

213. Yes it was. n/t

[villager]

218. Flattered, I'm sure!

;-)

[Enthusiast]

158. Me too.

DUer Teabagger assholes.

[quiet.american]

2. Kicking for visibility. nt

[elocs]

214. Smart move because kicking is more important than a Rec in the long run.

You could Rec this thread without responding, but what would that do to keep it read? Two days from now when nobody can Rec this thread you could still kick it to the top of its forum by responding.

[butterfly77]

3. Kicked&Recommended!!!

:kick:

[SwampG8r]

4. i have nothing but love for legal immigrants

illegals not so much

open borders are a danger
in terms of health and public safety

[jillan]

15. I agree. We need reform, but Az becoming a police state is not the way to do it.

[Cybergata]

31. No, we wouldn't want any of those dangerous, dirty Mexicans!

When I see the faces of the young protesters, I see the faces of my family, my friends and my students. I see the faces of my ancestors who came to New Mexico almost 200 years before there was a United States of America. Generalizations about illegals being unhealthy and dangerous are more lies to make the illegals scapegoats. The whole issue has a lot to do with racism and hate against Hispanics than anyone realizes. I hate it when so called liberals add that "but I'm against illegals" when the whole situation is a lot more complicated and they have not taken the time to learn what is really going on. My Indian ancestors call you an illegal alien.

[SwampG8r]

35. you dont know who i am so

i will forgive your lack of knowledge
i am 64/128 tsalagi indian myself and have papers to prove it from the tribe and government
i am not calling mexicans dirty or dangerous in my post
i am addressing the issue that every nation has
every country on earth expects you to enter and exit their country through proper channels
they do it to protect their citizens from the few tiny numbers intent on doing harm
just like your indian ancestors and mine were robbed by an uncontrollable influx of aliens and objected
i object now to the expectation that the borders of the US are open to all
come in legally as i said and you have my love and support
crawl in without giving me a chance to see if you mean harm or could unintentionally inflict harm through disease
and i have nothing for you

it is not an issue of race
and by the way the only one advancing racist speech here is you with your supposition of my race being offensive to OUR ancestors
it is an issue of safety
ask mexico how it deals with illegal immigration from guatamala and get back to me about that

[Shining Jack]

45. The teabaggers are American citizens...

And I find them far more scary then poor Mexicans risking their life to get awful jobs that nobody would want to do.

[MellowDem]

65. Bullshit...

They are only "jobs nobody would want to do" because the working conditions and pay are shit, because the workers can get exploited, because they are illegal. It's ALL about cheap labor.

[Cybergata]

73. Bingo!

And while you exploit them, denigrate them just to make sure that no one sympathizes with their situation.

[fasttense]

170. We should be seeing all the illegal EMPLOYERS being hauled off in handcuffs.

Corporations lure these poor souls over here with the promise of employment. Then they exploit them, subject them to cruel and unsafe working conditions and pay them practically nothing.

If we rounded up all the businessmen who knowingly employ illegally, we would not have to do much of anything about the illegal immigrant. They would go home, just like migrant workers use to do before Ronnie Raygun gave them amnesty, or never attempt to come here because they would know, no one would give them a job.

Instead we round up, deport and punish the very people we lure here with corporate crap jobs.

[catgirl]

219. Have you seen Food. Inc.?

It's a must see. The way the big food production companies treat their employees (illegals) is
disgusting.

[onpatrol98]

111. and exploitation

+1

[Shining Jack]

128. My point is...

I find the teabaggers far more dangerous to public safety than the Mexicans crossing the border illegally.See post #4.

[Enthusiast]

161. Most of us agree with that part. nt

[WarhammerTwo]

132. Not that cut and dry...

You and I know that these illegal immigrants are being exploited. The immigrants, however, may not see it that way. Remember, these are people who are coming from abject poverty. They come from NOTHING. As such, what may seem like piss poor pay and unsafe conditions to you and me is 100 times better than what these people were used to in Mexico. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying this is why they tolerate it.

As far as why they come here illegally, well, basically, it's because that's the ONLY way they can get here. It is not cheap to legally come into this country and I again must reiterate that these immigrants come from ABJECT POVERTY. If they don't have two pesos to rub together to begin with, how in the world can they possible come here through legal means? And let's not forget to mention the rampant corruption in the Mexican government that makes it cost God-knows-how-much-more to obtain all the proper documentation to begin the immigration process. Gotta pay all them bribes, doncha know. I mean, that's the whole reason they're coming here. Mexico has NOTHING to offer them. No jobs. No security. No future. So they come here to make a pittance for hard labor, a pittance which they view as a king's ransom compared to what they had south of the border.

If ya get the chance, you need to find an episode of Morgan Spurlock's "30 Days" TV series from FX. I forget what season it was, but Morgan had a Minute Man border patrol volunteer live with a group of illegal immigrants for 30 days. It really changed my opinion on the whole illegal immigration issue. It really opened my eyes.

[boppers]

147. 30 days episode here:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/56908/30-days-immigration

[Shining Jack]

174. +1

[MellowDem]

207. I understand that...

but the truth is that illegal immigration just allows Mexico to get a pass on its own problems and inequalites by increasing our inequalities and labor problems. I don't think illegal immigrants view themselves as being exploited, considering they are making more than they would elsewhere, but just because they don't have the perspective or "big picture" of how it is hurting others doesn't mean it's ok.

The solution is not illegal immigration. In fact, it only makes the problems in Mexico and here worse.

[dotymed]

177. Soon

many of the "other 95%" of Americans are going to have to take these jobs. The Lords are not giving the serfs many options.

[quickesst]

180. Horse-shit....

....with a heaping helping of bullshit on top.

"awful jobs that nobody would want to do."

I work construction hanging drywall, and metal stud framing. I'm sitting at home on unemployment because my company, which does not employ illegals at half the wage I have earned for 15 years cannot compete with the lower bids of those that do. I like my job, but I'm goddamn sure as hell not going to do it for half the wages I'm used to earning since my life, my family, my home, and my little slice of the American dream was obtained through hard work at a decent wage, which by the way, I would lose most of if I work at half wages. A lot of you need to get off your fucking high horses, and realize that the "awful jobs" you use for your ignorant arguments are jobs that many legal citizens have done to gain a little security for their family and their family's future for a long goddamn time. The "awful" job I've done for fifteen years has been, until recent years, pretty decent to me and my family, but if you believe that illegal immigrants, who's own country is unwilling, and/or unable to provide a decent economy, and who sneak into this country to do my job at half the wage is more deserving than my family and their future/security, then I can only conclude that your own life has, and won't be affected by this issue. The ivory tower defense for illegal immigration is transparent, and weak. Many are, in effect, lobbying for third world status for the United States of America, as long as those that do the lobbying get theirs. Thanks.
quickesst

[Chulanowa]

48. Wait wait wait...

"I am not calling Mexicans dirty or dangerous in my post"
"crawl in without giving me a chance to see if you mean harm or could unintentionally inflict harm through disease"

Hi there, Mr. Tsalagi. I'm Choctaw myself. And it looks to me like you're trying to cover your ass while still thumping on like Lou Dobbs.

I have no problem with "illegal" immigrants. None whatsoever. I don't blame people for wanting to come to America, do you? And nor do I blame them for skirting legal immigration channels. Know why? Because legal immigration is structured to make sure that these people never come to America. America's immigration system only wants wealthy Europeans, everyone else has to wait in line at a closed window. What the system fails to recognize is that most of these people are in desperate straits, and can't "just wait" and for the most part, they can't afford the massive fees for immigration anyway.

I have no problem with a starving man stealing bread, and I have no problem with desperate migrants not waiting a decade and paying every peso they have, just to be rejected.

Ask Mexico how it deals with Guatemalan immigrants? Are you saying that the United States should model itself after Mexico? Or hat Mexico is justified? Did you know that Guatemala is in the situation it's in right now because of the United States?

You may not be racist (though the presumption that the immigrants probably mean harm and are diseased makes me wonder) but immigration policy is. When you defend a racist policy, then you end up defending racism. Your argument, to my ears, sounds like "Well, I support segregation, because segregation is the law!" or "Well, people should obey the fugitive slave act, because it passed congress!" - tell me, did your own ancestors shrug and go "Oh, well, the Treaty of New Echota was ratified, fair and square, let's go"?

Go ahead, I'll give you time to Wikipedia that.

So if you want to continue this silliness, Mr. Tsalagi, I'll be over expressing my solidarity with Mr. Zapotec and Ms. Huichol. Bring your papers, I'm sure we'll all be impressed.

[MellowDem]

66. More utter bullshit...

You might want to check the legal immigration numbers to find out how many wealthy Europeans get in, and how it makes it a "racist" system.

Acutally, illegal immigration policy right now is the way it is for one reason: cheap labor.

Illegal immigrants are cheap exploitable labor, a Republicans dream.

[Chulanowa]

72. The policy favors wealthy whites

That people who are wealthy generally have less incentive to emigrate doesn't change the standards of the policy. Among those groups that are migrating, special favor is given to the ones who can bring lots of money, who have the most "cultural similarity" (the specific culture being, of course, WASP) and who have the best education (which is usually hand-in-hand with both money and culture)

The end result is that the people who most need what America provides are being specifically prevented from obtaining it, because - obviously - they're in need of it.

And yes, you're right, illegal immigration provides exploitable labor. Which is partly why I support massive immigration reform. I favor open borders. it completely nullifies pretty much every single problem caused by illegal immigration, since much like drug use, it's one of those things that's only illegal because it's illegal.

[MellowDem]

77. It favors the wealthy...

but not the "white". The majority of legal immigrants don't come from Europe, and haven't for a while now. It also favors the well educated, but that goes hand in hand with the wealthy. And all those liberal, progressive European countries require the same, and have much stricter standards for legal immigration.

[a la izquierda]

87. You didn't address anything Chulanowa said.

So get off your high horse, and take him/her to task if you've got issues.

[MellowDem]

89. Uh, yes I did.

He said that our legal immigration policy is a racist system set up for the wealthy white European man to get in only. So I addressed that. He said he had no problem with illegal immigrantion. So I told him why he should. Try to keep up.

[Chulanowa]

139. Actually I said it favored wealthy whites

Not excluded all others.

That is, a rich guy from Denmark is going to get his citizenship quicker and with less issue than a wealthy man from Botswana. A poor Australian with a high school education has better chances than a poor Mexican with a high school education.

You actually didn't address anything about "why I should" have a problem with illegal immigration. I maintain that much like drug use, it's one of those "illegal" because it's illegal" things. Illegal immigrants are criminals because of largely arbitrary rules set to arbitrary standards. Two men in Chiapas want to come to the US. Both have a middling education, both have some business experience, they're both single, hell, let's make them twin brothers, why not. Both want to come to the United States. One files out hte papers and spends the money and waits a few years. The other shells out some cash and gets help hopping the border. To hear you, and others tell it, the first man is a veritable saint, while the other man is scum of the earth. That is totally arbitrary to me. You're essentially declaring people the highest order of villains, disease-bearers, rapists, threats to our nation... because they skirted bureaucracy designed to screw them.

Keep that in mind, next time you decide you want to plant a flowerbed. You might be in violation of a zoning ordinance, after all. You fiend.

[MellowDem]

200. I don't consdier illegal immigrants to be scum...

not at all. I understand why they are doing what they do. But by skirting the legal route, they do allow corporations to exploit them and suppress wages.

[loudsue]

69. That's insane on so many levels.

And racism doesn't have anything to do with it.

If you are so idealistic that you think every country in the world should just throw open its borders to anyone who wants to come and go willy-nilly, then you will have nothing but chaos everywhere. Maybe someday WAY in the future, when the whole world is one culture, and everyone's government is the same as everyone else's government, then we can forget boundaries. But real humans don't change their lives that fast. It may be wrong as hell, but as of today, the human psychology/sociology is made up of several elements that create social and psychological stability....which THIS country, especially, is on the verge of losing altogether, in case it isn't apparent to you.

The reason that immigration happens in stages is so that the immigrants and residents alike have time to merge into the language and customs of "a people". Group identity is part of what creates the order, and allows for the mutual agreement on passing laws that can be used to govern in a peaceful manner.

It is astounding to me how very little most people in this country now understand about what makes societies work and function for the betterment of all of its citizens. When you have too many people (which the entire world already HAS too many people) in a country pulling in too many directions, you won't any longer HAVE a country that anyone wants to immigrate to. All of the good things about it change their character too fast to accommodate the change. France and Germany are dealing with these problems right now.

How much better for people to organize to bring favorable conditions to their own country than to have to go to a foreign country. In a very few years, there's not going to be anyone in their right mind who would WANT to come to the U.S. All these immigrants you want us to throw our doors open to are going to be killed in our own civil (actually, un-civil) war, just like many of us will be who have never known another home. Do you really want these very vulnerable immigrants, from Africa, Haiti, Iraq, Iran, Mexico, Afghanistan, Russia to be subjected to the new and terrifying tazering that many police are so happy with right now? How 'bout the new microwave crowd-fighting stun-gun thingy that has been unveiled that will be aimed at crowds for crowd control that will fry you where you stand, or the noise-maker that will bust your eardrums from the inside out?

The United States has MAJOR internal troubles right now with the military/industrilal/corporate take-over of our government, and the type of distress that is felt in many countries will be felt here in spades, except that there will be a bunch of people here who cannot speak the language and who are the most vulnerable.

In case nobody has noticed, this country is in melt-down, politically, psychologically, morally, educationally, economically. Unregulated opening of our doors to every person on the globe who believes the rumors about how great this country is would not be a pretty site. We would go from a population of roughly 310 million to a couple of billion in a few months. Won't that be fun?

[Chulanowa]

81. Für das Vaterland! Eine Nation, eine Sprache, eine Kultur!

Sorry dude, but I don't like nationalism, no matter how much sugar you sprinkle on it. You've put a lot of stuff into your post, and most of it is empty-headed, wrong, and ignores some basic facts of reality. I have limited time at the moment, so some samples. I may give more later.

But real humans don't change their lives that fast.

Real humans certainly do; this is attested by the frequent and often massive migrations of people, not just between Latin America and the US, but from Central Asia to Russia and China, from Korea to Japan, from Central to Northern Africa, from the Middle East to Europe, from western to Eastern South America, from southern Europe to Northern. People change very quickly, very fluidly. It's the rigid borders on the map, and those people who think arbitrary lines on paper MEAN SOMETHING (really, what's the difference between Waldweisse, France, and Biringen, Germany?) that aren't changing.

France and Germany are dealing with these problems right now.

France and Germany's problem isn't the immigrants, though. Their problem is the people who hate the immigrants. It's not that the immigrants aren't assimilating, it's that both nations (all nations, really) have people and policies that keep these immigrants marginalized, forced into ghettos, and targeted as scapegoats. The actual problem then, isn't the immigrants failing to acculturate themselves to the nation they're in, but rather the members of that nation who are refusing to acculturate to a nation that allows "those people" to move in.

How much better for people to organize to bring favorable conditions to their own country than to have to go to a foreign country.

Gotta love the American conceit you have here. Seriously, did you think as you were typing this? I'm sure the folks in Oaxaca would love to bring favorable conditions to their province; trouble is, they're getting shot when they try. That (usually) doesn't happen in America. So if you're facing odds of trying to organize and getting shot, or saying "Screw it" and moving to a place where you probably won't get shot, what do you do? Seriously, what would YOU do? it's one thing to demand that "those people" fix their own mess while sitting in your comfy chair in your air conditioning and typing away on a computer, but put yourself in their shoes. Make yourself a Palestinian. Make yourself a Hmong, or a Dalit, or an Italian Rom. Imagine that your death is very likely if you try to improve the situation. Also imagine that you have an option B - moving somewhere else where you can get that good stuff without fear of murder.

"Then let them eat cake!"

Do you really want these very vulnerable immigrants, from Africa, Haiti, Iraq, Iran, Mexico, Afghanistan, Russia to be subjected to the new and terrifying tazering that many police are so happy with right now? How 'bout the new microwave crowd-fighting stun-gun thingy that has been unveiled that will be aimed at crowds for crowd control that will fry you where you stand, or the noise-maker that will bust your eardrums from the inside out?

Seems like more a problem with "tough on crime" policies turning our police forces into an internal military, than a problem with immigration. What next, going to ask me if I think these poor immigrants should be subjected to our terrible obesity epidemic? Our inane television programs? No doubt you think they should all keep sitting in their squalor in Afghanistan for their own good, because of how harmful "The Biggest Loser" would be to their psyches. You only have the poor dear's best interests at heart.

You're spinning and spinning, but keep failing to see the actual problems at hand. You instead find it simpler and easier to pin the blame on the immigrants - in other words, by any reasoned outlook, YOU are the problem, sir.

[loudsue]

85. You sling name-calling around so effortlessly.

Since you are so short on time, I'll just leave you with this:

My ancestors are/were Mexican. My grandmother is Mexican born. Calling racism, "American conceit", throwing that German/Nazi nastiness about nationalism that is designed to shame liberals instead of discuss real possible solutions to real problems is inflammatory, unnecessary, and part of the problem that will be dealt with when America once again sees blood spilled within our own borders. It is coming very soon, and what is going on in Arizona is just the tip of the iceberg. Calling names, dehumanizing people for their opinions, painting people with broad brush-strokes is a great deal of what is bringing on the bloodshed that we will be seeing a lot of soon.

I honestly believe that through your bitterness there is some real compassion for people who are less fortunate. That is a good start. Maybe if you stay focused on the GOOD part of what you are trying to accomplish, you will be more effective.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Go2Peace]

116. I don't like nationalism, but neither do I appreciate ideology when it means policy stupidity

I know it is popular to declare anyone who believes that there needs to be groundrules (legality) when people cross the border, a "racist". But you are, of course wrong, on many levels. At some point we may decide to remove the border and become a single nation, which, if it was decided Democratically, I am fine with. But even then you STILL need an orderly immigration and visa policy. The world is not in a "Kumbaya" state and these rules are necessary at this stage.

There are few on this site that are racist. Instead of baiting people here how about recognizing what are valid concerns? I see very little in the way of offering alternative solutions from immigrant groups, and I say that as one who is very involved in an immigrant society. We would all be much better off if they recognized the very appropriate need for a lawful and reasonable process.

[Chulanowa]

144. My problem isn't with a lawful process

When I say "open borders", I mean like what we've got with Canada. You drive up, declare that you're not lugging a bunch of live weasels, and enjoy your stay. When I speak of immigration reform, I mean a system by which an immigrant can become a citizen easily, without the huge labyrinth of elitism, bigotry, double-blind bureaucracy, and arbitrary decision-making that the current system is. My mother's side of the family got here just by signing their names in a book and being told "Welcome to the United States." Today immigrants - even those in the "favored" castes, are treated like criminals who are guilty until proven innocent. It's asinine.

As for few people around here being racist... Maybe on the cooking forum, man. Bigotry is as prevalent on DU as it is on 4chan - it's just not blatant. hell, I'll even allow that most people here don't even KNOW they're saying something bigoted. It's a big blind spot for a lot of liberals, in fact. There's the belief that racism is over, that we "won" and discussing the fact that it still exists, still permeates the culture, and is still expressed in political discourse is considered "distasteful" or "impolite." In fact, I often get the impression that so many liberals are so inured of this conceit that they are actually unable to see even obvious instances of racism.

[Action]

190. Fine and Jail the Employers

I am so sick and tired of hearing about the illegals who come here to work.

Why are the employers not fined and jailed for hiring them?

If this was done, there would be no jobs for them to come here and take.

Americans always seem to be angry at the wrong people.

[Jheezus Chryst]

127. You know your stuff

Keep the faith.  Others are with you.

[Cybergata]

63. Mexico's immigration issues are not what we are talking about.

And I still contend that the illegals are neither a danger or unhealthy. The illegals that I know can pass as a Hispanic New Mexico whose ancestors moved to New Mexico in 1598 or 1693. The illegals that I know are hard working people who love their children and are good neighbors to those who live around them. My experience will illegals has been positive. I still contend that immigration is a non-issue brought up to rile up people and then avoid the real issues. I still contend that racism is behind the issue and that good meaning liberals are sucked into believing the anti-immigrant rhetoric. The Southwestern part of the U.S.A. was part of Spain and then Mexico until 1847. The New Mexican/Mexican border was crossed back and forth by people throughout history. Families have members on both sides going back as far as 1680. The border issue isn't black and white. When farmers want their crops picked, they never asked if you are legal or not. When restaurants want dishes washed, they don't ask if you are legal or not. Also the idea of this huge influx of immigrants flooding into the U.S. is greatly exaggerated.

[MellowDem]

68. They are exploitable, cheap labor...

which is where illegal immigration becomes a problem for labor rights.

[onpatrol98]

115. Plain and Simple

America didn't want to pay Americans for the jobs they did, so she brought in slaves. Now, again, America doesn't want to pay. So, we wink and nod and collude as a new group of people are exploited. The bull about work that Americans didn't want to do was always a crock. Americans will do ANY job for the right price. But, we were convinced that the eventual price would be too high. It's better to keep our goods cheap. We didn't realize that if we insourced and outsourced our job force, and if Americans didn't have jobs it really wouldn't matter how cheap the product would become. We can't afford to buy it.

But that's okay, during the last International business meeting I participated in, we were told America is no longer much of a market of concern. Its the emerging markets of the world that we need to consider. Our population is small and their economies are growing thanks to the wonders of "fair" trade and American industries providing jobs and thereby disposable income overseas.

But, corporations couldn't do this alone. This is where the American corporate beast needed a little help from people needing new victims. New lambs for the slaughter, we'll fight amongst ourselves to bring more of them in for the kill, instead of thinking of ways to help them make their own pasture greener. Where's the fun and feigned nobility in that?

Now, we're outsourcing service level jobs, bringing in teachers, accountants, and IT professionals (apparently more jobs, Americans won't do). Our borders are a joke. Many illegal immigrants are simply people who have overstayed their visas and simply didn't return home. And, our government doesn't have a clue as to where they are. Add to this the fact that the government is paralyzed by a growing constinuency with the potential to vote and the need to please big business and you have a grand recipe for ignoring the needs of the expensive American worker.

And, from unemployment lines across America, we stand...a workforce too expensive to be bothered with by big business. And, as long as union dues are paid, most unions don't care who pays them.

[Enthusiast]

160. Sorry but I must disagree.

For many white Arizona citizens and legislators it is a race issue. They don't respect your heritage and that is a fact. My Aunt lives in Arizona, their attitude toward natives is appalling.

[Enthusiast]

162. Another point.

If these illegals were from Ireland or Australia would we hear a word of complaint? I rest my case. The issue IS race.

[vduhr]

196. I agree. And what ethnicity does everyone think the police will

be stopping and arresting when they have "reasonable" belief that a person is an illegal? It ain't racist? BS!

[1monster]

175. 64/128? Why not just say one half????????? nt

[quickesst]

179. Thank you..

....for introducing actual logic, and common sense into this issue. It absolutely fucking amazes me that supposed informed progressives cannot grasp what you so precisely put forth. It boggles the mind how much influence wayward ideology has over otherwise intelligent people. Thanks again.
quickesst

[DeschutesRiver]

192. I agree with the points you are making

There is a policy re immigration; all countries have one; it is ridiculous to not have such a policy in place.

It is stupid to trespass into another country under cover of night, refuse to apply for citizenship, live & work here, but then throw a damned fit when challenged about your legal right to be here. There is no question about status - either you are a citizen, or are under under one of the legal temporary exceptions or you are a trespasser who needs to be deported back to the country of which you are a citizen.

Someone wants to be a citizen, then follow the procedure we have to do it in an orderly fashion. My mother immigrated from Canada, and she did it as the USA required, and became a citizen. I am tired of listening to people who are nothing more than freaking linejumpers pissing about all these stupid applicaions and rules, while people like my mom just got on with it & followed the rules of the country in which she sought citizenship. It isn't rocket science; it isn't racist; it is just another policy to follow if you want to be a citizen.

If citizens of other countries don't want to be a citizen of the USA, but still come illegally across the border to work, don't expect me to call such a person a fellow citizen simply because they trespassed and showed up here. The act of crossing a border doesn't make someone citizen.

[vduhr]

194. If I were you, I'd stay out of Arizona.....

You might get profiled and arrested because all you have done is look like you might be an illegal alien. In case you haven't figure this out, this is why this law in AZ is wrong.

[lsewpershad]

197. Lest you forget

The illegals from Europe came here and chased you off your land and treat Native Americans like what??????

[liberation]

32. Very good point

Smallpox almost whipped out the Indians after those white illegals sneaked in.

[SwampG8r]

37. thank god someone gets it

[liberation]

40. Which means Indians in this country have a very good case to deport a big chunk of people

back to the old country, no?

[howmad1]

107. Wouldn't it be great..........

....if the Mexican government insisted on checking the status of every single American visiting Mexico for their status as Mexican citizens? If they are not Mexican citizens, they have 24 hours to leave the country. Bet that would piss off a lot of Americans who hate illegals.

[SwampG8r]

131. i agree

i am 64/128ths tsalagi and im all for it

[defendandprotect]

184. Yes . . .!!! Was trying to make that point . . . much less successfully--!!

:)

[Cybergata]

78. I don't think the influx of Europeans and their deadly diseases fits this discussion.

The sad reality is that at least 2/3rds of the Indigenous population of New Spain (Mexico) was wiped out by European diseases. The almost unspeakable reality is that the U.S.A. had a policy of genocide toward the plains Indians. Both these facts have records to prove them true. There are also records that show that the so called "Spanish Flu" began in the U.S.A. and was brought to Europe by U.S.A. soldiers who came to fight in WWI. Far more people were affected by it in Europe than in the U.S.A. Now show me the records that prove that illegals have brought diseases to the U.S.A.

[defendandprotect]

185. Nice post . . .

Now show me the records that prove that illegals have brought diseases to the U.S.A.

They're always working on that one, unfortunately!!



:)

[wolfgangmo]

43. Exactly - infected blankets. Biological warfare.

I love this poster about the department of homeland security.

[Mudoria]

178. And failing badly...

[goclark]

181. My g grandfather was an American Indian

and I am African American.

My ancestors were slaves and I can never forgive slavery or forget it. They worked on their hands and knees for this country without getting paid one dime.

The sweet and highly intelligent lady that helps us clean our house and takes care of my mother is just like family to us and has been for almost 14 years.

We hired her from an agency found through the phone book and I always thought she was a full citizen.

Two years ago she happily told me that she finally got her papers.

I was shocked because I thought she was a citizen.
I took for granted she had to show papers of some kind to work.
She may have had a "temporary" visa of some kind.

I really don't care how she got here, she is here and we adore her entire family ~ they are our extended family.

Everyone in her family has earned the right to be here, IMO.

Her smart daughter is now a Jr. at Marymont College. Straight A's and B's. And, I am thrilled that I helped to send her through school by not only paying her Mom but raising her Mom's pay every year after she stopped working for the agency.

Arizona should be ashamed but they are not.
They are a test case for the rest of the country of Baggers.

I'm so afraid that this situation will be escalating and those hateful people that are acting like this are probably giving their House Keepers and "Maids" $10 a day.

[MellowDem]

70. Wrong analogy...

Europeans were invaders, they were not sneaking into an Indian country (which didn't exist) as illegal immigrants. They had their own nation and rules.

[Chulanowa]

83. Shitty history

But I like how you mix it with racism, without even knowing that you're doing it.

"THEY didn't have nations. WE did, and OUR rules were the ones that counted!"

I don't blame you; I blame shitty school textbooks. I doubt you've studied very deeply into Native American history - or even colonial American history.

[MellowDem]

86. Shitty history AND argument AND race baiting

I do blame you for being so ignorant. You must be purposefully so.

If you don't think Europeans were invaders, I'd love to see your argument for it.

And Native Americans did not live in one country together. That's pretty obvious. Sure, they had their own tribes and nations, I never denied that.

[liberation]

88. Huh? What?

[MellowDem]

90. The analogy of illegal immigrants today coming to the US...

as compared with European colonists (invaders) coming to these shores hundreds of years ago is laughable. It's even offensive to illegal immigrants, if you really think about it. Those colonists were there to take land for their home country and make it an extension of that same country. I don't think illegal immigrants are invading the US and taking land for their home country. Though many on the right view it as an "invasion". That right there should end the analogy.

Indeed, the reason why many people were originally picked to be colonists (or "forced" if you would prefer) was for cheap labor! Prisoners that would "work for freedom" and soon enough slaves from Africa (they tried to make Native Americans slaves as well) were amongst the first to settle as part of the colonies, because to make the colonies exceedingly profitable for the companies that funded them, they needed cheap (or free) labor.

I guess the European colonisation/invasion could be better used as an analogy for a company's want for cheap labor than for illegal immigration.

[Chulanowa]

135. I think you need to understand the meaning of "race baiting" before you use the term

When talking of immigration, and subjects like the interaction between Europeans, Africans, and Native Americans in early America, race is certainly a factor. Pointing out that what you said is racist isn't race baiting. it's a simple statement of fact. Doesn't make you a racist, just means you're repeating something dumb.

You and I do agree that comparing migration from Latin America to colonization from Europe is wrongheaded; for starters, most of those people crossing the border are themselves Indians and mestizos. They are acting as individuals, rather than national representatives. They have no clout or force beyond their own pockets and their own knuckles.

My gripe with you is your apparent claim that there were no Native American nations, (while there was, apparently a singular European nation; maybe you're conflating England and Europe?). You say that you never denied that the natives had their own nations, so maybe you phrased your earlier statement poorly, because that's the message that comes out of it.

As for your main point on this thread, that the illegals are beign exploited, you're absolutely right they are. And it's their status as "illegals" that allows that. Making things harder for them won't stop the problem, it'll actually just make it worse, as these people get more desperate and willing to work for even lower wages. Relaxed immigration regulations - even if not on the level of my own favored position of open doors - are what is needed to reduce the problem you're talking about. The easier it is for immigrants to get the protections of a citizen, the harder it is to exploit them.

[MellowDem]

204. I was pointing out that the analogy didn't make any sense...

because there was no single "Indian" country like the US that the colonists were "immigrating" to. The places the colonists settled were still parts of their home country, essentially. They were still under the authority of the king/government that they came from. They treated other native tribes as neighbors, for good or for bad, not as tribes they were immigrating to and becoming a part of. It wasn't my intention to say that Indians had no nations.

[Angry Dragon]

152. The American Indian did have nations.

Many of them. Perhaps you need to open your mind.

[defendandprotect]

187. They were alleged "discoverers" of a continent with 40 million native Americans ....

with the purpose of enslavement or murder of the natives --

And Papal backing for it --!!

Let's not let labels confuse us!

[jillan]

71. We do really have a problem in this state. We've become the kidnapping capital; crime is up and yes

alot of it is linked to illegal immigrants, but having citizens stopped for any reason at all just to show their papers isn't really an answer. The Sheriff - Sheriff Joe Arpaio - he conducts raids. He will send his police force to a home and knock down the doors to look for illegals. This bill will allow more of that kind of behavior.

I don't have the answer, I used to think that clamping down on employers was the answer, but it's not. All that does is keep the people away that want to work. A fence isn't the answer. If we build a 50 foot fence, how long is it before someone builds a 51 foot ladder, or they sneak in thru tunnels. Beating down doors, pulling you over because you are the wrong color - I just don't think that is the answer either.

Good luck to Congress for taking this up. It's going to be an interesting fight.

[defendandprotect]

189. Turning police enforcement into immigration enforcers is a bad idea as well...

Between the Drug War -- which should also be called off -- and the paranoia of Arizona

we'll be setting ourselves up for more lawlessnes, not less!

And more corruption of police enforcement --

All of this begins with the rise of the right -- that's what we need to put down.

And, we need to ensure that Mexico begins to invest in their own jobs rather than in

our economy!

[SpankMe]

39. Not really.

There's no conclusive data on the adverse effects of illegal immigration on "health and safety". To the extent is does exist, it's buried in the background noise of tried and true American-caused health and safety problems, like obesity, heart disease, gun crime and Tim McVeigh.

Illegal immigration brings its set of problems. But, these are almost invisible in the context of big ticket crises the country is currently facing.

Scapegoating undocumented folks is a non-starter for me.

[SwampG8r]

136. i am not saying that

they bring disease or crime
i am saying the state has a responsibility to know that for a fact
how many people does it take to start an epidemic?
the US has a duty to know who is here just like every other country on earth

i have been painted as everything but a child of god on this thread for stating what is an obvious true fact
the state has a duty to the people

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. There would be a hell of a lot fewer 'illegals' if we had a rational

legal immigration system.

If we had open borders nobody but criminals would be trying to sneak in, and we could know exactly who is in this country. There would be no pool of illegal workers driving down wages because no employer would be able to exploit them by threatening them with deportation.

Truly open borders is the solution, not the problem.

[valerief]

49. Thank goodness the pilgrims were legal immigrants! They didn't bring diseases over here.

Do I really need this?
:sarcasm:

[PavePusher]

53. And we learned nothing from that? n/t

[valerief]

58. Yes. We learned that the great multinationals have no borders in ensuring global poverty. nt

[onpatrol98]

118. +1

[provis99]

133. the pilgrims were legal immigrants. And they didn't spread smallpox, either.

But they were white, so I guess that gives you liberty to slur them with whatever crime you can think of.

[boppers]

148. Who gave the Pilgrims citizenship?

The Nauset sure as hell didn't give their permission.

[Chulanowa]

157. They weren't, actually

"Their" land was actually part of Virginia. I put "their" in quotations because they were actually a minority of people on the Mayflower, and the other folks on board had bought into the Virginia turf as well. The ship was basically hijacked and steered north; the mayflower Compact was basically an agreement that the other settlers on the Mayflower wouldn't hack the puritans to bits for basically kidnapping them and forcing them into the Massachusetts Winter.

They had the good fortune of finding Pautuxet - Tisquantum's home village. They were even more fortunate because the village had already been completely depopulated by smallpox (or influenza, or whatever) by the time the Mayflower arrived. There was good water, cultivated fields, and a good supply of stored food still edible in the village - the settlers also robbed a few graves, but actually did pay back for what they stole.

They were welcomed by the Wampanoag, who saw the Europeans as possible allies against the Narragansett, who had been lesser-affected by the epidemics and were now demanding tribute from the other local tribes. In fact the Plymouth colonists proved a valuable political tool for the local tribes, who exploited the European's numbers, guns, and immunity to disease to put pressure on this or that faction.

it came to a head when the Plymouth colonists were enlisted by the Narragansett in a war against the Pequot. The Europeans' method of warfare was quite a bit different from their Indian allies, and they conducted several massacres; it essentially became an ethnic cleansing against the Pequot. In fact for several years in the Massachusetts colony, it was a felony crime to even say "Pequot." Naturally this sort of thing kinda put the kibosh on Colonist-Native relations in the area and set the state for King Philips' war.

The colonists ("Pilgrims" isn't wholly accurate, after all) did not spread smallpox. In fact an outbreak of it struck both white and native during King Phillips' War. of course, the whites were more than happy o take full advantage of the fact that it hit the Indians harder; Can't blame them for pressing an advantage during a war, I guess.

The smallpox blankets came later, during the French and Indian wars. Lord Jeffrey Amherst came up with the plan, and was ordered to go through with it by his superiors.

Biological warfare was also used during Manifest Destiny; people who died of Cholera or Dysentery were often "buried at sea" in "indian" watering holes. Blankets handed out by the forts were also never in great condition - smallpox may have been spread this way, and typhus definitely was. Whether that was intentional, or just an unfortunate side effect of poor hygiene is up for question.

[LetsgoWings13]

79. right on

[spelldmilk]

106. Betcha moula everybody on this site has at least one illegal in their history.

Considering the vast majority of Americans are either descendants of immigrants or immigrants, I think the level of discourse around immigration reform could be raised to a higher level than legals are ok, illegals aren't. We are all human beings and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. Open borders aren't the problem, stupid drug laws and bad economic and environmental policies are the problems.

[SwampG8r]

137. true enough i bet you are right

are my ancestors illegals?
they were ordered off and stayed
that would make them illegals i think

[dencol]

140. Yea, well "illegals" are humans too.

How easily you forget. Shame.

[emilyg]

150. I'm with you.

[closeupready]

169. And what you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me, too.

n/t

[defendandprotect]

183. Of course they are -- as the native people came to understand when Columbus arrived--!!

These are all people who are native to this area -- we aren't!

[Lars39]

5. K & R

[mstinamotorcity]

6. Alright everybody lets

help get the truth out k&r all day:kick: :kick: :kick:

[MinneapolisMatt]

7. K&R

.

[formercia]

8. K&R

Remember those faces.

[myrna minx]

9. This made me tear up a bit. Thank you for posting. K&R n/t

[ProSense]

10. Cool!

Do they plan to protest John McCain?

[jillan]

13. We've tried that already - but the sad, sad truth is that McCain is

better than JD. We have a Dem running for the Senate, but where the fuck is he??? Randy Glassman. I'm afraid he doesn't have what it takes to win. Just like when we had someone running against Kyl in 2006, his campaign was almost non-existent.

We are trying to turn blue...it's tough in this state.

[catgirl]

25. But JD would be easier to beat in the general

Hopefully these stunts by the repugs will get things rolling for Randy Glassman.

K&R

[jillan]

26. Where is Randy? I signed up with his website, and his facebook page.

I hear nothing - do you???

[saracat]

56. His name is Rodney.

[jillan]

75. See - maybe if he got out there more, I'd get his name right.

;)

[saracat]

95. I find it really odd that you signed up for both his facebook page and

his website and still don't know his name. I agree he needs to get out there more and the AZ State Party needs to get off their duff and support not only Rodney but ALL their candidates but hell has a better chance of freezing over.

[jillan]

96. And if you read below you will find someone else called him Ron

and they are from his district.

Why do I feel like you are on my case? I want Glassman to win, and I will volunteer for his campaign.

[saracat]

101. Good for you. All I said is it was odd.

[saracat]

57. Are you kidding? Jim Pederson's campaign wasn't nonexistent

in 2006. He was everywhere and on TV 24/7 running continuous ads. We do not have the numbers in AZ . They wouldn't vote for a Dema and our Dem voters don't vote. They do not. Jim Pederson spent millions of his own money to run and Bill Clinton came to town several times to support him. I really resent that nonexistent campaign remark.

[jillan]

93. You're entitled to your own opinion - but I thought his campaign sucked.

[saracat]

94. I think the Arizona democratic party sucked. They find it impossible to do any GOTV,

Jim's message wasn't great and the campaign could have been better, I agree but it certainly wasn't invisable. That is just not the truth.

[Enthusiast]

163. "it's tough in this state."

The legacy of Goldwater.

[vduhr]

201. Except that Goldwater is no where near the type of conservative that the

conservative movement has become today.

[Enthusiast]

216. I understand that but

they doubled down on that hate intolerance mentality. Remember Goldwater in a way was pretty bigoted in his own right-there is no Martin Luther King Day in Arizona.

[ProudDad]

206. A soothing thought for a fellow human...

temporarily stuck in the bat-shit crazy republican dream that is Arizona...

They're dying off...those retirees who came here with their love for George Wallace (the 1968 version) ... they're dying off...those close-minded Maricopa County q-tips clogging the highways on their cell phones ... their arteries are closing down and they'll keel over...that's what keeps me going most days...

Now if we can just get the Dems to grow a fucking spine.

I've suggested to a few of them that they hold a press conference AS A CAUCUS IN SOLIDARITY at the Legislature every day that the pukes pass some bat-shit crazy stuff out of a committee or house (and that's nearly every day they're in session) and expose what the crazy crap pukes are doing and suggest reasonable Progressive alternatives...in time for the 6 o'clock news. I get blank stares of non-comprehension and cries of "There's nothing we can do!"...and send us more money for our campaigns...

The problem is that most of the Dems in this state are scared little chickens NOT Progressive lions...I think there's something in the contaminated CAP water...:)

[Kweli4Real]

46. Probably Not ...

His primary challenger, J.D. Hayworth is a thousand times worst. Honestly, I've been toying with the idea of registering republican just for the primaries.

Since the Democrat frontrunner for my district, Ron Glassman, has just about a zero percent chance of winning the general election , I would far rather have McCain than the rightwing extremist, teabagger, unconvicted felon, Hayworth.

[pezDispenser]

50. +1

talk about a rock and a hard place.

[Soylent Brice]

11. K&R

[Oceansaway]

12. K&R...n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

14. I think the AZ legislature may have gotten themselves into something they will regret...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

21. Like when the lawsuits start....

Every American citizen falsely detained because he doesn't have his "papers" should sue the living snot out of the municipality where he/she has been detained. A few million is legal costs and a few billion in punitive damages should bring them to Jesus.

[PSzymeczek]

100. Let's see Glendale not get a Super Bowl

for a few years. Let's see some conventions cancelled and tourism dry up. Let's see the snowbirds stay away in droves.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

171. But here's what I want to know....

The new law says that local police are required to stop and question persons who they suspect to be illegal, and to detain those who don't have their citizenship papers.

So does that mean they're going to be stopping white folks (like me) on the suspicion that I might be a Canadian in the country illegally?

[havocmom]

23. It's the Sheriff Joe Arpaio Enabling and Protecting Act, pure and simple

Since Sheriff Joe sends his henchmen, errr, deputies, out to investigate prominent citizens, businessmen, and pols who dare criticize him or suggest he needs some watching.... Well, one might wonder who all in the state legislature got blackmailed into a bill that looks to give Joe a lot of cover for antics he could be sued or jailed for.

[ljm2002]

16. Good for those demonstrators!

It is heartbreaking to see what is happening to this country, with Arizona leading the way in racist and anti-American BS.

"Your papers please!"

We used to mock the Eastern bloc countries with those very words.

[YOY]

17. Brave souls. Will have Sheriff Joe stories I am sure once they are released.

n.t.

[Oregone]

18. The second picture shows just how much the Teabaggers can't spell

I can't even read that sign.

[Vincardog]

19. I believe the signs were not from tea-baggers, they appear to be from our brown brothers and sisters

[Oregone]

20. Look, Ive seen a teabagger rally or two

Ive got a hunch here Im following. And Im telling you, that sign....something about it

[Vincardog]

22. Which sign? The one written in Spanish?

[Oregone]

24. Tea baggers don't like Spanish

So its probably not that. Just their illiteracy scrawled on a banner

[PSzymeczek]

105. It's in Spanish

from an immigrants' rights group.

[Oregone]

151. Damn. Tough crowd tonight

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

172. You MAY NOT be here all week....

:rofl:

[hwmnbn]

27. K&R

[yellerpup]

28. F all bigots.

Stand up with these people. :kick: & Rec.

[happygoluckytoyou]

29. IF THIS DOES NOT PUMP UP THE HUGE BROWN VOTE IN ARIZONA,then they get what they get, they have power

[Downtown Hound]

30. This could really backfire on the Republicans in Arizona

Latinos comprise a sizable percentage of that state. I'm glad to see they're not taking this lying down.

[riverbendviewgal]

33. I wrote to the Az executive Director of Tourism

here is her address

[e-mail]

Here is what I wrote. I stated that Arizona is no longer on my "to visit" list.
Truthfully it seems to be too scary now to go there.


Sherry Henry,
I see you are the executive director of Arizona Office of tourism.
I am writing this with great sadness. I am notifying you that I will never be able to visit Arizona again.

I did visit and stay in your state a couple years ago. I now find with your new law just being implemented to pull anyone over for no reason to show identification reminds me so much of Germany in the 1930's and also Communist Russia.

A large group of my friends were planning on spending next winter in your state but now we find we could not do this.

There is a real sense of hatred in your state now. Many people I know have felt the effects of Germany in the 1930's and advise me that this is the same atmosphere now.


Your new law will cause many up north here in Canada to choose another state for their winter vacation time.

[jillan]

44. Raul Grijalva, Dem Congressmen from Tucson is actually advocating this.

Such a shame - Arizona is such a beautiful state.

Thank you for writing that letter :hug:

[druidity33]

34. they're being led away in handcuffs

because they chained themselves to a Court Building. I'm sure they expected to get arrested. Your post made it sound like there are riots going on or something. Seems inflammatory to me, but maybe i'm just sensitive this afternoon...

:shrug:

[jillan]

42. You are being sensitive - I just wanted to show the protests that are going on at our capitol.

Riots? No...but if this bill passes, who knows!

[Cybergata]

84. I didn't view that way, but

rather showing non-violent protest. The media in this country doesn't show the dissenters. Thousands of people protested the war in Iraq, but you'd never know it if you just watch the main stream media.

[PSzymeczek]

104. They chained themselves

to the doors of a museum! Read what's on the doors.

[druidity33]

117. Ah, my bad. I saw Arizona Capitol...

and my brain filled in Courthouse. Still though, it is a public place and they are blocking access. I've been to enough protests to know that if you do that, you will get arrested.

Not saying there isn't a damn good reason to get arrested sometimes... i've taken part in a couple of occupations and had friends jailed for chaining themselves at the SOA. Just felt like it needed to be pointed out that they weren't "unjustly incarcerated".

:shrug:

[JDPriestly]

36. What do immigration reform advocates really want?

I personally find the immigration issues to be confusing and hard to understand. And, mind you, I have lived as a resident in four countries in addition to living in the U.S. as a citizen. Each of the countries that I lived in had and enforced immigration laws. So, here are my questions.

So, what do immigration reform advocates really want? Completely open borders? How do we define ourselves as a country if we have no borders? How do we even know who or how many are in our country if we just open our borders?

Amnesty? We have had amnesty before. If we do that again, shouldn't we just save the trouble and let everybody and anybody in from any corner of the world?

From an economic point of view, how realistic is it for the United States to simply let in every person from everywhere in the world and recognize them as residents? How would that work in terms of wages, the cost of welfare services, etc.?

It is one thing to have heart-felt sympathy for the poor and oppressed in the world, but another to simply invite all of the poor and hungry into your home to live with you. Frankly, my house is too small for that.

And, by the way, there are a lot of countries in the world that are more miserable, poor, violent and unlivable than Mexico or the Central American nations. So immigration and amnesty will not just apply to those here now. As we have seen as soon as we declare amnesty for those who entered the country without complying with our immigration laws, more non-compliant immigrants come in. It is not just a matter of Mexicans or Central Americans. We have illegal immigrants from all over the world.

I am sincerely asking these questions? They are loaded, but that is because there appears to be a point of view on this thread and I would like to ask those who hold that point of view how they respond to the problems that acting on that point of view might raise.

I have asked these questions in good faith. I realize this is an emotionally charged issue. I would like to receive answers to my specific questions that are not emotionally charged. The emotional outbursts on both sides are just confusing. What are the answers?

[skepticscott]

91. Well, the really far left immigration protesters

DO advocate open borders, as several just on this thread have said. The more sensible ones know that's crazy, but have trouble setting out a concrete and practical policy that they can live with. Short of totally open borders, there will probably always be more people that want to immigrate to this country than we want to let in, or that can be accommodated, so no matter what other specific policy they advocate, it will always boil down to making choices and distinctions in the law between who will be allowed in legally and who will not, and they can't stomach those types of hard choices.

Bottom line remains, the citizens of this country (and of every sovereign nation) have a right to control their borders, which includes the right to decide how many non-citizens will be allowed to enter, from what countries, for how long and for what reasons, and what requirements may be set for people wishing to become citizens. We also have a right to set those limits in such a way as be in OUR best interest. We are not obliged, either legally or morally, to place the interests of the citizens of other nations ahead of our own in such matters, just as they are not in their own country.

[newspeak]

141. far left, I love it!!!

About twenty years ago, I worked for a subcontractor--at that time the federal government distributed booklets with illustrations of valid green cards and SS. When an immigrant was hired a federal form was to be completed. One time I knew the card was bogus and refused to sign the form-my boss signed it. Some immigrants work various day to day jobs, but others are hired by contractors, construction. If you want to decrease illegal immigration, you go after the employer. You put your money policing hiring practices. But, it won't happen with the "business can do no wrong" crowd.

Immigrants have a rough road in this country as it is. The one I refused to sign the form for went back to get his family and drowned. When I lived up in Northern California our neighbor was in the California immigrant education program. He made sure that children, especially those in rural areas were being educated. He had a guest for some weeks--it seems a young mexican immigrant was hired to tend sheep up in the mountains. He had been up in the mountains for months, and the rancher had not paid him--when he asked about being paid, the rancher changed the subject and asked him what gun he wanted. He thought it was for killing coyotes--the guy shot him with that gun and laughed. He drug himself to the border station. Anyway he stayed with the family next door to us. He told them "if he couldn't pay me, I would have understood, why did he shoot me?" This was a young man, about eighteen years old. Some who hire immigrants treat them like slaves, and stiff them in the end. Just like the contractors rebuilding NO, who hired immigrants and then didn't pay them. Illegals are used and abused--but the sad thing is these same people who hire, would love to use and abuse us if they could get away with it. The rancher got off--I mean, all he did was coldbloodedly shoot a slave-someone who is not all human, right? We've got quite a few mean hearted, greedy sociopaths in this country, and the gullible who unwittingly follow them.

[JDPriestly]

153. Please answer my questions.

If you think that immigration laws should be enforced against employers, then I take it that you think that immigration should be regulated, limited in some way.

Is it abusive to send people back to the country from which they came if they are discovered to be living here without formal documents? Do we as a nation have the right to limit immigration into our country?

You seem to think that we do but to be as confused as I am about it. You seem, as I am, to be torn between having compassion for individuals who are abused, especially individuals who come here to work hard but are abused once they are here.

With regard to enforcing immigration laws against employers, I suspect that the reason we do not have that approach is has to do with the cost of enforcement. It is simply easier and less expensive to pick up the immigrants and deport them than to investigate employers and prosecute them.

Employers usually have the money to pay well qualified lawyers -- teams of them. It is probably impractical for the government to pursue employers.

It's just not as cost-effective as simply deporting the immigrants, yet the result is the same. The immigrants leave. Yes, the immigrants come back again, but it is still cheaper to deport them again.

Am I correct in reading into your statement that your mind supports immigration restrictions, but your heart feels compassion for immigrants and that therefore you are in conflict about the issue? As am I, I must say.

This is a particularly personal issue for me because I live in a neighborhood with a lot of immigrants from around the world. I'm pretty sure that not all of them have documents. But, with a few exceptions, they are good people, good neighbors, and I would miss the color and spirit they bring to the area. Yet I do not think we should just leave our borders open. I remain torn and confused on this issue. Basically I favor enforcing laws and always try to follow them myself. What to do? What to think?

[newspeak]

191. yes, I am torn on the immigration policy

Before NAFTA was passed over five hundred major american corporations were in Mexico. Some of these corporations (knowing better) have abused workers and the environment in that country. After NAFTA, there are thousands of companies doing business in Mexico. The exploitation of workers in Mexico in some of these companies is absolutely obscene. You've probably read some of the stories--like the woman on the assembly line who wasn't allowed off of the line, was bleeding and miscarried. And yet, we still have some crossing the borders for something better-even though those same businesses are putting the screws to us. Not as bad, yet.

Back in the eighties, my environmental science professor announced to the class that he was against immigration. The whole class went silent-birds chirping. Then, he explained why. He told us, "do you think those people wanted to flee their homeland?" Many were forced because of political tyranny or economic needs. He believed that if other countries, like the USA, would not exploit or influence political outcomes, that then people would not have the need to flee. His thoughts were that it is the meddling by certain countries that cause more harm to the people forcing them to abandon their homeland. Now, I can see his point on immigration, and looking at the political and economic atmosphere of some of these countries, we understand why people will face death for a better life for their family.

But, the immigration blame game was played during the great depression. It's easier to play the immigration blame game when the economy is sinking and decent jobs are hard to find. I believe the focus should be on regulating corporations (businesses)--on both sides of the border. That's why NAFTA was a windfall for corporations with little or no worker or environment protections. We have businesses for maids, nannies, handymen and all of those businesses should be responsible and required to make sure their employees are legal. It's easy to pass a law requiring it, but it takes funds to police those who abuse the law. What the RW crazies believe is that it is easier to scapegoat those who are coming here illegally--yes they bare some of the responsibility, but so does those who hire them and in some cases exploit them.

But, this bill allows law enforcement, basically to stop anyone with brown skin. I had many friends in Arizona whose families are of the land in Arizona. Native born-mexican and native american--and this law could infringe on their rights. Their families have been there longer than some of these blathering blowhards. This law is also an insult to them.

[okie]

145. Why is open borders crazy?

You seem to be admitting that the alternative, 'sensible' policy is just to outlaw certain people from crossing over for no good reason at all. It's incredibly easy to just say we have no obligations to Mexicans when our policies profoundly affect the lives of the people who end up crossing the border illegally. We know, for example, our corn subsidies have incredibly damaging effects on Mexican agricultural workers, but addressing that issue requires us to ask uncomfortable questions about the structure of the American economy, and the fairness of our trade agreements and the operations of the international organizations in which we wield tremendous influence (ie. the IMF). I don't see how the 'sensible' ones have much in solutions for these problems.

I'm reminded of that slogan from the social upheavals in 1968 France, 'Be realistic, demand the impossible.' I think, that if the 'realistic' options don't solve anything, maybe that says more about how crazy those options are - how crazy the system in which those options operate really is - than how crazy the radical ideas are.

[JDPriestly]

154. I am not confused about the need to change our trade agreements.

I definitely favor fair trade as opposed to free trade.

Of course, there is an argument to be made: If borders are open for the free exchange of corporate products, shouldn't they be open for the free exchange of work?

The problem is that open borders mean an influx of cheap products and cheap labor. As long as our dollar is highly valued, open borders mean that a declining standard of living for Americans.

It seems to me that as we allow more cheap goods and services and labor into the United States we lower our standard of living.

So, I think maybe your point about trade should be the focus. If we change our trade policy, maybe the enforcement of our immigration laws will be less of a problem.

[skepticscott]

165. You can't have a sovereign nation

if you can't control your borders. It's as simple as that.

[pampango]

199. Of course you can. European nations have made the sovereign decision to open their borders

to immigration and trade from 30 other countries. Doesn't make them any less sovereign. They can always reverse that decision. Indeed, many right wing parties in Europe campaign on withdrawing from the EU with its open borders and free trade on the continent.

[skepticscott]

220. Those are hardly

what the people on this thread and elsewhere are advocating as "open borders" They do not simply let anyone from any nation come and go as they please, and those who can come from nations that have met very strict and elaborate requirements. The fact remains that even EU nations let some people in and exclude others. Their policies differ from ours only in degree.

And in any event, controlling immigration is only one aspect of controlling your borders.

[pampango]

188. Open borders are not "crazy". European countries have them with 30 other countries. We have

them with zero countries. Of course, European governments are much more progressive than ours. Maybe that explains why we fight the idea so hard and they embrace it.

France and Germany have open borders and they fought two wars in the last century. (Our last wars with Canada and Mexico were much farther back in history, yet we can't have open borders with Canada, much less Mexico.) Romania and Bulgaria have open borders with the rest of Europe even though they are poorer (per capita income) than Mexico. Maybe it takes a world war on your territory to learn the lesson that shared prosperity is better in the long run than "beggar thy neighbor" prosperity which requires walling off poor neighbors.

[onestepforward]

38. K&R

[proReality]

41. K&R n/t

[Hamlette]

51. why not arrest and fine employers who hire illegals?

that's the "problem". If there was no work, there would be no "illegals" but no one wants to punish employers (or can't punish them because they are so powerful) so we go after those who can't fight.

In Utah we almost passed a law 2 years ago where the employer would be fined $1000 for an illegal. That was, as I read the law, a one time fine. They could continue to employ the illegal and there would be no further punishment.

The illegal, however, would be fined $50,000 PER DAY. Honestly. It was bizarre and petty and mean. But its the mentality of the legislatures.

Wonder if the gov of AZ will sign this....any one know?

[Go2Peace]

120. I agree, but you also show you are not involved closely with an immigrant community

You could not stop it that way, if that was the policy, because many many LEGAL immigrants work in the underground economy, I would imagine that is much more the case for illegal immigrants. You just see these things because they are easier to spot and crack down on, and it is going on.

I would be all for another round of amnesty, if only it worked, but it doesn't, it just encourages more not to go through the legal process. It simply doesn't work. That is one of the reasons this is ratcheting up, because we have tried these ways before. It is time for everyone to get more reasonable because it only hurts everyone when both sides are not accepting the valid concerns of the other.

[newspeak]

129. well, if you really wanted to stop illegal immigration

you would go after the employers. But, the employers vote and many probably vote repuke. Of course, to pass a law where law enforcement can stop anyone with brown skin is totally despicable. Growing up in Arizona, many of my friends were mexican american-some could claim a longer residency in the state than the euros--also, had friends from different tribes--they will also be impacted by this bill. There are many different native american communities in Arizona-and many have been there longer than the snowbird invasion.

I remember when immigration became a talking point for the repukes under *. It's only grown in stupidity-and it is stupid. It reminds me of the great mexican immigration boogeyman during the great depression. They'll do about anything to create a diversion for the masses and most fall for it every time. Had no trouble with the boogeyman immigration while growing up in Arizona and many worked the fields--but hey, the repukes made it a talking point, with the media "catapulting the propaganda."

And all of you anti-immigration people-you don't want illegals prosecute the employers. Harsh, but it really works. Oh wait, they're getting rich off of that slave labor and they donate to those who have been blathering about illegals--what a game.

[JitterbugPerfume]

52. this will be a very interesting case for SCOTUS

It is a police state , and if it is not stopped it will spread like a plague

[Shining Jack]

54. K&R

That's really sad. :(

[Bluenorthwest]

55. We should be thankful to have these brave people among us

They are my brothers and sisters, hermanos e hermanas. Without the Americans who come from Mexico, El Salvador and other nations to the South, I would not be me, my country would not be my country. To treat them as 'the other' is to deny who and where we ourselves are.

[struggle4progress]

59. I'm flashing peace signs with both hands and shouting "Venceremos!"

from the other side of the country! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[WilliamPitt]

60. What's this about?

I can guess, but don't have the facts. Link?

[jillan]

61. The Arizona bill on immigration - you haven't heard about that?

Here ya go
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/21/20100421arizona-governor-on-immigration-taxes.html

[WilliamPitt]

62. Nope

Financial regulation and a SCOTUS fight, along with two jobs, leaves me with only so much RAM in my head.

Thanks for the link. :)

[jillan]

64. Oh c'mon - I always thought you were superhuman!

:)

[tekisui]

67. KNR! Thank you to all those who are taking a stand against this.

[MellowDem]

74. The recently passed law...

won't stop or solve the problem of poor illegal immigrants being exploited by corporations for cheap labor. They have to crack down on corporations that hire illegal immigrants. If they can't work here, they won't come here.

[Go2Peace]

121. The majority do not work for corporations (directly). Most work in the underground economy

or indirectly through contracts. Most people who are not involved in an immigrant community have no idea how large the immigrant community social structure is. Even many legal recent immigrants work in the underground economy. Most get jobs through friends and many have lived here for 20 years and never had to learn english. Not judging that, just saying that is how it is. I have one foot in and one foot out and very much appreciate the value it is in my life and many of the values they bring. But that does not mean I leave common sense and sustainability at the door.

We all get too caught up in the racial/emotional part of this. We need to be compassionate, but we also have to be wise. Some immigrant forces would like us to accept a society without immigration law. I am convinced some really are more interested in their political power than finding solutions, and they actually have a hand in keeping their own community in this condition. That has also been a big part of how we have gotten where we are today. Not just the corporations and small businesses who encourage it, but the lobbying groups who are empowered by fighting solutions and stringing immigrant societies along with unrealistic promises.

[Blue_Tires]

76. major kick

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

80. K & R + +++

Spawned from 1900 era illegals myself. Polish Stowaways. Settled in Chicago. Went on to be politicians, police, community workers. Entered illegally, gained citizenship.

[Cybergata]

82. Bravo to these young people.

If their parents were immigrants at one time, they sure did a lot of beautifying the nation by bringing DNA that makes for attractive people. BUT what I'm really wondering is, what is going on in this photo:




The woman looks like she is strangling herself. ;-)

[fascisthunter]

92. if only you were white, right wing and carrying guns

then you wouldn't have got arrested.

[JustAnotherGen]

97. Good for them!

As Wanda Sykes said (sort of) - I would love to have a worker break into my home and clean it illegally. Go on ahead and break the law with your surreptitious vacuum cleaning! The reality is they ARE human beings and the reality is that if we don't want people used and abused: We have to go off the people that use and abuse these folks. Paying them slave wages and holding them in their employ with 'fear tactics'.

I do have one branch of my family that came through Ellis Island. He had a horrible cough/chest virus, was kept in the sick quarters for two weeks, and then got sent back home. He waited another six months, healed on the sunny shores of Southern France, plotted, planned, got back on that boat - and came back . . . second time was a charm. He was a Veteran of the Great War that had lost toes from trench rot. He left France because he KNEW it was going to happen again based upon the weak 'peace'. And he was right. He got the hell away from bloodshed, war, the horror of humanity.

My great grandfather eventually settled in Elko Nevada and was the Justice of the Peace for many years. He live to be 99 years old and I was blessed to have him in my life until my early 20's. Always alert, always progressive in his beliefs, a total disbeliever in God, and didn't care what you did as long as you weren't a German (He was just thrilled with his daughter's choice of Pittsburgh German :rofl: as a husband but that's for another post).

Those images? Would have broken that man's heart.

To me? Immigration reform means we go back to the days of Ellis Island. Provide ATTAINABLE goals for those who wish to come here, have them provide a sponsor (great grandfather was met in NYC by a cousin of his) to help them get established, and make it a 'real time' experience. Meaning if you get to the border - there's an 'Ellis Island' to process you through and into our country. This is not meant to 'shut people out' - but to protect them. We need something like the French American society that was helping folks get established, looking out for them, and making sure that no one was being used or abused. That use and abuse of people who bypass the immigration process? That's what chaps my ass more than anything.

No they are not Americans when they show up at the 'door' - but they are still human beings that deserve dignity and respect as human beings. But never mind me . . . I'm just one of those screwy humanist Unitarians! :rofl:

[smoogatz]

98. The Republican party: on the wrong side of history yet again.

Immigration reform is going to happen with them or without them. Preferably without, IMO--it'll be a better bill.

[Steve20]

99. re

The feds have neglected to enforce immigration laws for decades, leaving the states no choice. There should be a few thousand troops on the border. Want to see strict immigration laws? Check out Mexico.

[WheelWalker]

102. That's o.k.,

you can check out.

[WheelWalker]

103. K&R for humanity.

[Number23]

108. Rec'd. Big time

[alp227]

109. Bravo to them for standing up to un-American, Orwellian, implicitly racist law.

Of course, who is most likely to be suspected to be illegal immigrants? Hispanics and anyone else who doesn't look remotely Western European. The racial profiling thing is bad enough. Even worse would be ID checkpoints on highways and other places for everyone to share the pain equally.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

112. This law is illegal and unconstitutional.

The legislature cannot give State or County police authority to investigate immigration status. Immigration status is a Federal jurisdiction. This law is void because the lege was granting a power it does not have.

The usual example of politicians writing a law, and thinking it's a good and enforceable law, just because they CAN write a bad law.

Sort of like the Defense of Marriage Act being superseded by the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the constitution. The Defense of Marriage Act was a political stunt because the Texas Family Code already says that marriage is between two people of opposite gender.

Basically a marriage valid in one state is not voided by the couple moving to another state. This is why Texas judges could grant divorces to gay people validly married in Massachusetts.

Unfortunately, the state AG, Greg Abbott, is unaware of the Full Faith and Credit Clause. Or doesn't want to recognize it.

I made C's in law school, folks, and I could figure this one out.

I'm a lawyer but I do not play one on TV. :D

[jillan]

113. You know what else they are saying - is there is no way to enforce this if it does pass without

raising taxes to pay for more cops and more jails. Haha - what a joke!! The repubs are whining in Az about a proposed 1 cent sales tax.

[Azathoth]

110. As long as illegal immigration remains unchecked, you're going to get stuff like the AZ law

If you don't solve problems like illegal immigration rationally, the right-wing extremists will eventually solve them for you, in the most obnoxious and offensive ways possible.

[Go2Peace]

124. You get it. We need to start finding solutions and stop acting like everything is ok

This is shaping up to a huge confrontation because *both* sides have players who are fighting for political power rather than solutions.

[newspeak]

134. Is it really about the illegals?

Arizona has always had a very significant population of Mexican-americans--working in a government agency in Phoenix, approximately half of my colleagues were mexican american. Is it about illegals or brown people? Because when I lived in Arizona, there wasn't much ado about illegals--I believe it was in the 2004 campaign that the repukes started using illegal immigration as a political point. I mean immigration has come up before-but this focus was a definite talking point, that the repukes started about illegals.

It seems that since the * administration injected fear, fear, fear and paranoia in the hearts of the RW extremists, they'll fear and attack anything. I guess it can be called a "mob" mentality.

[Clio the Leo]

114. "E pluribus unum"

.... the one symbol of American tradition the right wing has managed to forget about.

[Historic NY]

123. they say it all...beyond that were a nation of immigrants .

[Odin2005]

119. K&R!

[NOLALady]

122. You can't be too careful.

The natives of this country welcomed illegals and it didn't turn out too well.

[vaberella]

125. Okay...so it's tough being Black and Hispanic in America. n/t

[political_Dem]

126. K and R. Keep fighting the good fight.

[Walk away]

130. Republicans....say bye bye to the Hispanic vote forever!

You may win a few seats in 2010 but you are losing the war.

[Suji to Seoul]

138. Well, they will still carry the Cuban vote in Florida

Cubans, generally speaking, are Republicans. The Batista-followers that ran to Miami have been Republicans because of their hate for Castro marginalizing their influence. Like Gloria Estefan, who's father was a personal bodyguard to Batista.

The Republicans will keep the Cubans. most all other Latinos who vote will abandon them. They just kissed the largest minority in America goodbye.

[Walk away]

217. Even the Cuban community in Florida is changing politically.

The younger generation is much more liberal and not very attached to Cuba anymore.

[lonestarnot]

143. You would be surprised how many are still unconvinced.

:puke:

[mzteris]

146. ''check the legal status of those they suspect are undocumented.'

based on what? Their LOOKS? Their Accent? Their clothes? Oooh, maybe it's the kind of groceries they buy or the music they listen to?

:banghead:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

203. It makes me feel like popping on a big sombrero and speaking only Spanish while driving around AZ

Just to waste their time.

[PatSeg]

149. Hmmm, I didn't see any of this in the MSM today

It was all Tea-Baggers, all the time. Any other protesters evidently are irrelevant.

[Goldstein1984]

156. I don't even know what to write

"Law abiding citizens" need laws they can abide.

This treatment of human beings makes me ashamed.

Solidarity with the immigrants, "legal" or "illegal." And with citizens who will be targeted and harassed because they fit a profile.

[ejpoeta]

164. reccing this because it's important..... these ARE people and it's too easy when life is tough

and things aren't going so great for you to scapegoat... and it is not the fault of those who may be here without proper papers. I am not going to blame someone for trying to make a better life for themselves and for people from mexico, there doesn't appear to be a way for them to get here any other way. they have an important role to play in our country.... just like my family did when they came here. my grandparents came here from germany!!!

i think people are afraid.... they are being relegated to the minority status and they know how THEY have treated minorities..... but kicking out people who have been here for years isn't going to change the fact that this country is changing. it was fine when our ancestors illegally came here and killed all the indians, but now that our old white mens club is not big man on campus anymore we want to kick everyone out that has dared to come here to make a better life.

why do we have to take out our fears and anger at a group of people who have NOTHING to do with any of what is going on! Why not instead try to bring mexico up in standard of living... pay... so that they don't WANT to come here. so they can have a good life in their own country you don't see canadians hopping the border to come here for a better life en masse do you?? first of all they probably can come here easily. many come here to work and then go home. i had a college teacher who crossed the border from canada every day for work. i guess that's ok because they are more like us??? because they aren't the riff raff??? we are a nation of immigrants. our past is not pristine.... we are not without our own skeletons. who are we to treat others in this manner?!!

[kywildcat]

166. illegal immigrant wins 100k settlement against warren co. sheriff

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/ohio-news/ohio-county-settles-with-immigrant-for-100k-665523.html

This may make AZ think twice their decision to turn into a police state.

[Kitty Herder]

167. K&R

[adamuu]

168. One source link

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2010/04/activists_chain_themselves_to.php

This is apartheid and a disgrace to this supposedly free nation.

[abluelady]

173. Where Have the Hearts of Americans Gone? eom

[Deep13]

176. Apart from the obvious racism and police-state nature of this...

...what really bugs me is that this is state incursion into a matter within the exclusive jurisdiction of the Federal govt. Only the Feds. can set immigration policy which makes this proposal plainly unconstitutional.

[ProudDad]

209. Bingo...

But neanderthals like Pierce and Melvin and Antenori don't give a shit about quaint concepts like "constitutional" or "rights" or "humanity"....

[goclark]

182. Keep kicked for the world to see the injustice

Reminds me of the sit ins that my people, African Americans endured for their rights and they were brought to this country in chains'
:cry:

[t0dd]

186. K&R nt

[WheelWalker]

193. Kick for solidarity.

:kick:

[Democrats_win]

198. "Where are your papers?" Asked the Gestapo.

[jillan]

205. Woohoo - Msnbc just reported on the protests!

a couple of days late....better late than never!

[ProudDad]

208. I have pledged to NEVER carry any ID except when driving

I am urging every activist here in Arizona I know to do the same...

In these days of ATM/Credit cards instead of checks, how often do you have to actually need to show ID...

Anyway, Visa should be starved too -- get and use cash!

Don't carry ID in bat-crap crazy Arizona!

Build the court case...and make some extra class-action money!

[BlooInBloo]

221. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

They should really fix that bug someday.