REINSTATE THE DRAFT! And,

[rateyes]

make those assholes in the House and Senate 55 years and younger who vote to fund more troops in Afghanistan the first draftees---and, send their butts off to war. And, make their children over the age of 18 the next ones in line.

Come on Congress critters--put some of your own skin in the game. Or else, GET US THE FUCK OUT OF THESE GODDAMMED WARS!

[eleny]

1. That alone would end this

When their skin is involved, it's a completely different picture.

K&R

eta: Know them by their unrecs. :rofl:

[VMI Dem]

2. There are some war cheerleaders here that should volunteer immediately too.

Of course, that won't happen.

[saigon68]

93. Yes a bunch of CHICKEN-HAWKS here

They never saw anything more dangerous than a PAPER CUT

A pox on all of them.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. This is such an insanely good idea...

It has the proverbial snowball's chance in hell of ever making it.

K&R

[QC]

4. Our very own Chairborne Rangers right here need to enlist, too. n/t

[Ken Burch]

83. Somebody with mad computer skills needs to invent a shoulder patch for

The Chairborne.

[saigon68]

94. This expedition is MADNESS

[Ken Burch]

95. That too, of course.

n/t.

[dana_b]

5. if they want to "win"

(which is a subjective and stupid term in this case) then do that and increase the troop levels by 1 million. Fuck it. If they are going to do it, do it big time. Then see how quickly this god **** war ends.

[Jennicut]

6. Insanely bad idea. It was ended for a reason. It also adversely effected the poor and less

educated, not the wealthy. The wealthy found a way out.

[kiva]

13. And that isn't true with our current volunteeer army?

How many children of the wealthy enlist? Working class men and women, however, are encouraged to join up as a vehicle of upward mobility, but wealthy families can afford to pay for college, insure their children, help them to find jobs and found businesses. The draft was unfair, but there is no more equity in our all volunteer service.

[TwilightGardener]

25. Not necessarily true. That's a stereotype. Lots and lots of middle class in the ranks,

both enlisted and officer.

[kiva]

31. Middle class, yes. But the claim was that the draft

unfairly favored the wealthy, and it is equally true in this volunteer army.

[Jennicut]

76. You can get a low paying job but in a draft you cannot necessarily find

a way to go to college to get a deferment, as was what happened during Vietnam. My Dad got out of going that way. There is no way the two situations are the same.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[happyslug]

14. The Draft ended as the American People turned against the war in Vietnam

As long as the Majority of Americans supported the War (and that was till about the middle of 1968) the Draft was producing the best Army the US had ever fielded. Today's army has better equipment but that is the result of 40 years of technology improvements, but man for man given the same level of equipment (And the training on that equipment) the army of 1965-1968 was the best army the US ever produced.

Yes, the WWII soldiers were good, but the "middle management" i.e. Sergeants and up in the Enlisted Ranks, Captain and up among Officers did NOT have the experience the same ranks had by the time of Vietnam, thus the Vietnam era army was just a better army, it matched the WWII army in terms of Privates and Colonels and above and exceeded it in terms of E-5s and above in the enlisted ranks, and Captains to Colonels in the Officers rank do to the greater experience those ranks had prior to Vietnam (During WWII the US Army expanded so much that the pre-war upper end company officers and lower end Field grade officers, Captain, Majors and Colonels were quickly promoted to Colonel or higher ranks, with a similar jump among pre-war enlistees to Sergeants. You did NOT see that in Vietnam for you had a much larger army in the 1950s then we had in the 1930s, thus these ranks retained a good many experience NCOs and Officers that did NOT exist in WWII given the rapid expansion for WWII).

Today, the enlistee ranks are poor compared to the enlistee ranks of WWII and Vietnam. If you were 18, you were drafted in WWII, and in Vietnam unless you were in Collage Drafted (and that changed in 1969). Many of today's enlistees (E-4s and below) are NOT of the same caliber as who was being drafted in WWII and Vietnam. If you have any real option you do not enlist. You could avoid the draft during Vietnam if you were careful (as did President Clinton and VP Chaney) but most young men did not (Or picked the solution of enlisting, thus getting the chance to select were you wanted to go in the Military, even in the army). Overall the Draft provided the US Army with a higher grade of troops until the Country turned against the War in 1968. As the Country turned against the War starting in 1968, so did the enlistee ranks and with it the army as a whole. Various efforts were made to work around this problem at that time (The Net has several examples, but the Right hates them all) but Nixon seeing how the people and the Army saw each other as one and the same and wanting to be able to get elected decided to separate the army from the people and did so by abolishing the draft. With the abolishment of the Draft the US Army decline even more so (and never did fully recovered except in the sense the Army would follow orders come the 1980s). Thus the main purpose of abolishment of the Draft was for Nixon to be able to tell the American people the only people going to Vietnam were the people who wanted to go. No one is being forced to do so. The Joint Chiefs opposed the abolishment of the Draft for they foresaw (and were seeing) the decline in the quality of the Enlisted ranks, but that was of secondary importance to Nixon and the Right Wing who wanted the Army as a tool to maintain US power as oppose to any army to fight a war supported by the vast majority of Americans.

[Thothmes]

32. Why did Nixon ask for a two year extension of the draft law in 1971

[happyslug]

52. Because he was NOT getting enough enlistees

Remember, Nixon had two problems in 1971 in regards to the Army, a desire to move to an "All Volunteer" army and a need for actual men in uniform. These two needs were NOT always compatible, thus to fill out Army Units the draft was still needed. Remember we had an Army in Europe And another Army in Korea that needed enlistees in addition to the war in Vietnam. Until the Economy really started to Tank in 1973, the Army had a problem getting recruits (And even after 1973 it took the fact that the Laws regarding who can enlist regarding the army was weaker then the Navy and Air Force that permitted the Army to open all but the Combat Arms to Women, something the Navy and Air Force could NOT do till the 1980s when the underlying statute was changed). 1972 was an election year and Nixon wanted to run on a platform that he had ended the Draft, thus the Army had to make do with whoever they could get.

Thus in the 1970s over 10% of personnel in the US Army were female, while the Air Force and Navy (Which includes the Marine) were below 5%. The reason was that under the 1947 Law regarding the Military, the Air Force and Navy had Statutory restrictions on what women in either branch could perform. The Army, under the same act, had no such statutory regulation and instead implemented the same policy under its own Regulations (The reason for this had to do with the National Guard which technically is part of the US Army and the Fact Congress did NOT want to deal with the issue of Racial integration given that the Regular army and Northern States had and making Blacks Officers while the South opposed even the idea that a white man would take order from a black officer, so the whole issue of who could enlist into what area of expertise in the Army was avoided by Congress, this indirectly affected women for it let the Army decide who can serve in what area with NOT Statutory restrictions, while the Navy and Air Force had to work around clear Statutory restrictions when it came to women).

My point is simple, Nixon needed the draft to fill out the Army for not enough men were enlisting. The army did NOT have enough enlistees till after it was clear no one was going back to Vietnam AND women could fill in the remaining enlistee gap.

[Jennicut]

77. I would take a decline in the abilities of our military over

citizens being able to have a choice in joining the military or not.
Especially considering that most of the wars fought lately are not necessary.

[LooseWilly]

88. I think that's the whole point of the OP... that forcing *everyone* to take a chance on serving...

would force a re-thinking of whether any given war is worth prosecuting... as one's own family/friends/neighbors/self might well end up trading fire with the enemy.

NOT having to worry about that possibility, on the other hand, makes it easier to support imbecilic and imperialistic wars... or cheerlead them when proposed by others...

[Jennicut]

91. Yes but in reality there would be loopholes and the wealthy and well connected would get out of

really serving. In reality, this would do nothing to stop a needless war from being started. If we lived in a perfect world, we would not have these types of wars to begin with. That is why I think it would be a terrible idea. Actually, politically, I doubt we will ever have a draft again.

[era veteran]

102. Exactly, Why is this so hard for some of these folks to understand

If a war is worth fighting the USA would support it. Rich boys skipped the 'Nam as they had other interest. These are the same traitors that dragged us into Iraq.

[era veteran]

104. Universal Draft/ No rich boy deferments

Everybody gets to go not just the poor. Evaluations done by military doctors. I am all about class war since Reagan declared it. The majority of this country is ignorant as hell about these wars. They have no stake in it. The "aristocracy" must serve. The lottery worked just fine. Want war? then everybody fights. Not just the Sardaukar. Peace, Richard

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

107. Better: Wealthy automatic 1-A, Poverty automatic 4-F

The draft lottery proceeds by bank account, not age.


Hey, they've got more to fight for!

[Gregorian]

7. Well I will admit that this is the very conversation I had the day after Thanksgiving.

The very fact that it will never happen this way should result in revolution. And the fact that it won't result in revolution tells us just who the American people are. I marched. I consider that a revolution. If everyone in the country marched against the invasion, it would stop.

When they let Bin Laden go at Tora Bora, the chase was over.

My guess is that Obama is being told that to slow down the war machine would plunge America into depression. We depend on the war for jobs. And that, I believe, is why we're there.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Those who promote a war they would not fight, nor see their

own children fight are war mongers, shouting for the blood of their neighbors. And I expect several of DU's war choir to sign up and make honest people out of themselves.
The draft is bad, war is bad, but if we want war, we want the draft, and that is the bottom line. If there was a draft, none of the war cheering people here would be cheering. They be crying about their own precious children, inferior to those who should be fighting this to make the world safe for their precious kids to dwell in.

[KansasVoter]

9. I guarantee the war mongers would change their mind if their Son was going to the war! +1

[treestar]

57. Wouldn't be so sure of that

Republicans are willing to let their sons go. Then they can say their son is serving, and how dare you oppose the war? They are that bad.

[stevedeshazer]

10. knr

:hi:

[harkadog]

11. Why are you jumping on Congress?

Obama could get us out of these wars tomorrow if he wanted. Also he is under 55 so he could go in the draft too. Why should he be exempt?

[ShortnFiery]

28. Because it's Congress who's abdicating it's responsibility to "declare war" or "defund"

half-step actions that will only serve to make Americans LESS SAFE both at home and abroad.

Either go FULL BORE or get the troops out now!

[Thothmes]

12. Go ahead and reinstitute a draft

watch the 2010 congressional election go down the toilet.

[Jakes Progress]

17. So it's okay to kill,

to wage illegal war, to send the same few soldiers back over and over and over while the war profiteers rake in the money and the politicians keep protecting their wealth and their families just so long as we don't jeopardize the chance of winning an election? That's some moral high ground. Oh, I forgot. Winning is cool and morality is for suckers.

[Thothmes]

23. Its always about winning

Why do you think FDR did nothing about Jim Crow in the South. Loose the southern Democrat support, loose the White House. Why do you think JFK would not talk about withdrawing troops publically from Vietnam until after the 68 elections. Didnt want to appear to be soft on the Commies. better to let a few more American die in Vietnam, than loose the election. Winning is what it is about. If you dont win the office, you have no say in the outcome.
You cannot influence policy.

[Jakes Progress]

54. And those are things you find admirable? nt

[Ken Burch]

85. Did you mean the '64 election?

Had he lived, JFK would have left office after the 1968 election.

[ShortnFiery]

29. What the war hawk Democrats don't realize is that IF WE defund these wars and bring

the troops home, the extra *trillion* or so dollars normally spent for DEATH AND DESTRUCTION could be spent on domestic projects. RESULT: Democrats are swept back into power in 2012 along with a re-election of a democratic President.

But no, we let the GOP scare us into "swaggering" and sending OUR YOUTH to the meat grinder of the MIC.

[PVnRT]

42. A draft will change none of that

It just gives them a bigger pool of disposable humans to do it with.

[Jakes Progress]

53. I've got three republicans on my block

who are big on the war. They all have kids 16-28. If they thought their kid might have to go, they would change in a minute.

When I posed the question to a couple of them, one was true to form and said that his son was not the kind that should have to do that kind of thing because he had things to offer the country that "those" kids did not. The other hemmed and told how he would be able to keep his kids in school or work with his buddies to get them off. If there were an honest, all inclusive lottery where their kids were indeed at risk, they would protest the draft, vote against the ones who put it in, and eventually call for the war to end when they couldn't use privilege to exempt their children.

(Oh. And none of these three ever spent any time in service.)

[saigon68]

96. Those Fuckers are dispicable

Let the poor and minorities fight for the Rich.

[Fire1]

19. It's going to go down, anyway. eom

[Thothmes]

24. Not in your life time.

Would require a major war with the Chinese. Americans are comfortable with the current system. Most of their sons and daughters are not being sucked up into the war.

[Fire1]

86. I'm referring to the 2010 democratic congressional election

going down the toilet.

[mcablue]

15. Surge supporters would rather serve the nation from their keyboards n/t

[AndrewP]

58. LOL. Sad but very very true.

[Peacetrain]

16. If the draft were reinstated.. only the poor would fight.. it was a nightmare to get rid of it

[Jakes Progress]

18. Nobody said to institute the same unequal draft system

that we had before. Make it a universal draft by lottery.

However. Even the bad old draft system is the system that got Viet Nam stopped.

[PVnRT]

43. No, it wasn't

It was night after night of fighting on the news and bodies coming back in coffins without any measure of success over there that turned the public tide against the war.

[Jakes Progress]

51. If that were so

how come the even longer war in Iraq is still going on?

We disagree on that period of history. I spent many hours in protest while seeing little effect. But once the lottery draft went into effect and you couldn't just go to school or get married to get out of the draft, the tide turned. An even more level field lottery draft would be electric in its effect on war mongering.

[ShortnFiery]

30. No, I would love to see the "deals" made that would ruin political futures.

In the age of the Internet, there's no way anyone whose DADDY got them out of combat could ever hold higher office.

Yes, reinstate the UNIVERSAL DRAFT! :evilgrin:

[era veteran]

46. No , you are wrong

The last two years of the draft were by lottery not by your ability to pay to get in schools that would make sure you passed as long as they got tuition. Before that it was certainly the poor mans war. This all volunteer Army further widens the chasm between the Army and a representation of the country's demographic. This war is doing the same thing the pre-lottery draft did. "the Steve Earl song with the lyric " they draft the white trash first around here anyway" was inspired by the pre-lottery draft. I am tired of generations of chickenfuckinghawks starting these wars so essentially the rich can acquire more and more of the riches our great country has at the expense of the poor. STOP THE WAR or make it an equal opportunity war with a draft. Then see how long it last. This will lead to a future class war in this country ( worse than the class war we are already being victimized by). BTW fuck the neocons. I was a lottery low number, in school, etc. I joined instead of being drafted. Draftees caried a stigma in my family. It was our duty to defend the country when necessary. These wars not necessary.

[bluedigger]

20. The Draft should be reinstated.

You cannot unfairly single out individuals, of course, but a universal draft of young men and women would serve our country well! The arguments against it because it unfairly burdens the poor are better spent against ending poverty than against a draft. The Draft helped bring about the end of the Vietnam War because middle class America grew tired of it affecting their families' lives, not because the poor or wealthy were inconvenienced. We lost Uncle Walter and the middle class with him, and got out of there, rightly so. The Draft would make war without end politically unacceptable.

[Michigan-Arizona]

21. I very much agree rateyes! n/t

[bigwillq]

22. Send Obama (nt)

[Baltoman991]

36. Nothing would

please you more would it? Pathetic.

[polichick]

26. I don't believe in the draft because the politicians and their children...

...will always find a way out, but regular citizens don't have that luxury.

[Lilith Velkor]

33. Many DUers support the magic fairy tale draft that includes rich politicians and their kids

If you ask them how to get those same rich politicians to enact such a bill, they'll just call you a warmonger or something (that's right, a warmonger, because you OPPOSE the draft) so don't bother.

[Sebastian Doyle]

35. Well, wouldn't a fairy tale draft be appropriate for a fairy tale war?

Against a dark scary evil enemy that exists about as much as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny do.

[PVnRT]

44. It's not a fairy tale war when people over there are getting killed every day

[Sebastian Doyle]

50. Exactly

So let's end this bullshit.

[ShortnFiery]

27. k & r

[FunkyLeprechaun]

34. No but I think

Anyone who joins the armed forces should take a history class or two. Or even do a degree at a university paid for by the armed forces with the requirement of doing a couple of history of war courses.

I had an argument with a current Army guy on Facebook recently and he "shouted" at me about my previous comments on WWII, "You know the GERMANS kicked the British and Russian ASS??? They HAD TO BE SAVED BY THE US!!!!!"

I said, "Wow! You really should re-read your history books sometime because what you just said was just wrong."

The entire conversation was mainly in response to me being an American citizen living in the UK. Another army guy (and a Republican) told me, "If you left this country (US), you shouldn't have the right to vote."

The friend of mine, also Army, said to me, "Don't call my friends stupid." and un-friended me. Whatever!

I really cringe knowing that people like that, no grasp of American/European history, are serving in our armed forces. My husband disagrees with me, saying that they should form their own opinions but I told him, "It's not about forming your own opinions, it's learning about history."

This whole conversation was due to my friend posting a picture of her toilet with an Obama urinal target sticker on it and I said that you know you should be careful about what pictures you post, someone might think this is threatening. Her soldier friends ganged up on me, "It's freaking hilarious, get over it!" and other stuff like that.

I don't want to link to a website but the sticker was basically a picture of Obama on a target with the words "Urinal Target" underneath. I thought it was tasteless due to the nature of the sticker in relation to what's happening with the Secret Service's protection of the president.

[jtuck004]

37. Freedom of speech

I wonder if it would have made any difference if your approach was

"I respect your freedom of speech, but people are dying today to preserve that freedom, doing their duty and serving under officers who report to the very president you are disrepecting. Is this really what you want to spend their blood for?"

As far as your suggestion about school - if they can get out of high school with such a limited knowledge of world affairs, college won't make much difference, and many states are cutting funds for college. They should go to war first. The ones that live might get some good out of it.

And I do think it is time for a draft, give the good people fighting the war a break, take some people out of the job pool. I think the country is so disheartened that the 2010 and 2012 elections are lost anyway. Bold thinking and a big program might have changed it, (maybe still could but it would be hard, too caught up in the health debacle). Maybe a WPA, rebuild the place a little, maybe build some electric car factories or solar panel factories, push some manufacturing, maybe some smaller scale farming between our shores. And a big investment to fund research into batteries and water.

As long as people who want to work are frustrated, they will vote for change. And that is a lot of people these days. They are voter who (As he stated correctly) didn't have a problem with Obama's background or race, but they do have a problem with an economy that keeps them from paying the bills. And their kids will voter the same way, probably learning from what they hear around the dinner table (the couldn't move out, no jobs, can't finance a house).

Or maybe the increase in troop strength is designed to get Osama. If they do that, it could pick things up enough for 2010. But without jobs, 2012 is circling the drain.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

38. That is what I said to my former friend

They were disrespecting their "boss" (after Obama is CiC of all armed forces). They responded, "We serve the country not the president."

I gave up with them, the stupid burned a bit too much.

Not sure if I like the idea of a draft because I feel it should be their choice to join the army and the requirements and training that comes with it should be expanded. At some universities they have programs in place to help ROTC students and looking at my old university's program, it includes a bit of history of the armed forces and human behavior.

There are other ways to form jobs. Probably not within the main armed forces but have more recruitment for the national guard so they can help rebuild the infrastructure of the US. I can name a few things that need to be done, the rebuilding of the WTC (what's taking them so long), the levees and New Orleans (nearly 5 years on and there is still damage!), et cetera. Those are jobs right there.

It needs to start at home, not wars.

[hayu_lol]

40. There will certainly some calls for returning to the draft with this ...

shiny new 30 years war staring us in the face.

Some requirements for the new draft:

No exemptions for college students
Both women and men elgible to be called up
New recruits must be paid at the same rate as the presently standing armed force and with the same benefits
New GI bill covering college tuition for all draftees
New GI bill with full health coverage for all returnees for life
New very low home loan interest for vets
$10,000 bonus for completing draftees upon discharge

A few more such goodies would prevent the draft from returning. Should it return, the draftees would be better placed to return to civilian life. For those who do not return, well, it doesn't matter much for them does it?

[jtuck004]

73. Your friends were wrong

They serve at the direction of the CiC, for the country. Any argument that they are serving the country still leaves "who" is making that decision. If they are taking on that power themselves, they are traitors to our constitution.

But you know that. And leaving stupid behind was probably a wise choice. There are better uses for your time.


The reason I support a draft is that if we are in it to win, we send all resources. That has always taken a draft (or whatever passes for that), and it always will, for any country. If not to win, get out.

We do not get the best resources just because people join willingly. There are plenty of very smart people who choose not to join who live off the blood of other people. And plenty who just have nothing else to do so they go, not particularly motivated. There are a lot of people who simply are not going to become good citizens until they are exposed to other places and people. We are producing a nation of self-indulgent sheep with no sense of national pride or connection to other people, and the military would give them a somewhat protected environment to realize there might be other ways.

I do not think active-duty military or national guard needs to be involved in rebuilding, except for emergencies and disasters. There should be a "civilian corps", temporary jobs which work on public projects.

We should figure out a way to employ ourselves in the way we built our way out of the "great" depression and WWII, (my grandmother told me there was not a damn thing "great" about the depression, btw). Manufacturing created wealth from our natural resources. Those were private holdings built up with government contracts who then could provide jobs which paid income to buy the things they were producing. Maybe we need huge government contracts that increase the manufacting output on our own soil, (changes in energy supplies are ahead, they are going to be painful, it's time to get ahead of the curve). Farming needs to change, since our food production doesn't seem to be the way to the future, maybe an effort towards a more sustainable agriculture.

[JTFrog]

39. Yes, Kill off the Poor to make the Rich Richer!

That's all a fucking draft would ensure.

There will have to be deferments for physically and mentally unfit and all the rich will buy themselves and their kids a deferment. Doesn't anyone ever fucking learn from history?

Jebus Flippin Christ.

[era veteran]

47. WRONG

I was in school, connected family, father career Army,and I could not escape it. Across the board draft. No private doctors' exemptions. I have fucking lived this history. Now if you are referring to the pre-lottery draft (found Unconstitutional) you would be right.

[JTFrog]

60. Career Army Father? Seriously?

Why do I have a hard time believing many career army dads would try to help their sons escape the draft?

Seems to me that hardly fits the "Senator's Son" scenario painted in the OP. The Dick Cheney's are NOT going to go serve their time with my sons. Period. You are the one who is WRONG.

[era veteran]

62. My father hated the Vietnam War

We would never try to escape the draft, I joined. I hated the war/ March on Washington 1971/ See my post# 61 and get back to me.

[JTFrog]

63. That's what I thought.

You "could not escape it" because you did not try. My post had nothing to do with people like you, yet you used yourself as an example of why i was WRONG.

Fuck the draft. Wrong then. Wrong now. Wrong anytime.

[era veteran]

66. A truly universal draft is not wrong

I sure as shit escaped it. I joined and froze my ass off in W. Germany sitting in a tank in the Fulda Gap for 3 years. It sucked but I escaped alright, I chickenshitted my young ass to Europe. The alternative, the draft , made you a grunt and sent you to Vietnam. I didn't run from the Army but Germany was a hell of a lot better than the fucking 'Nam. Wars for profit would NOT be fought if the fucking rich (power) sent their sons to war. I have thought a lot about this in my life because it was such an important part of it. If not a draft then who should fight our wars? You? Or is it a class of people beneath you? Or do you think we don't need a standing Army?

[era veteran]

110. Why not answer post # 66

Who if not us? Peace,Richard

[PVnRT]

41. Instead of a draft, how about random executions of men 18-30 years old?

Every week our military is in combat, just round up about 20 random men from across the country and shoot them.

Same outcome, right? Lots of dead young 'uns, political turmoil, and you get to feel all warm and fuzzy about things.

[era veteran]

48. Great, a loser argument

Jest about things you know about. Death is not funny & I take offense Peace, Richard

[Lilith Velkor]

56. What, you want to kill them over there instead? Talk about a loser argument.

And I know plenty about random executions.

[era veteran]

61. Power will not send their kids to a fucked up war

A true universal draft would be the MOST democratic act our republic could enact. There maybe wars that need or have to be fought, but the cult of fucking imperialistic adventuring would be curtailed. We need a strong military so we don't need to use it. The military-industrial bund wages war for profit. The United States should wage war only for true national defense. Now we have our in house mercenary army supported by private, corporate armies. A Republic should have a truly representative Army. Now what did you say? Peace, Richard

[tomg]

72. As a CO and resister, I couldn't

agree more with much of your post ( and since I'm a strong CO you will know where I disagree ). More to the point, I, too, support bringing back a truly universal draft. It would be the most democratic act we could perform. It would implicitly require that people make a conscious decision as to whether they believed in their beings that what their country was doing in their names was moral or not. Right now, everyone gets a pass, and that pass comes at a time when people need to stand up on core moral issues. We are using the poor. We are using the dispossessed. Incidentally, I say this as the father of four, three of whom would be subject to the draft.

The powers that be specifically do not want a draft. If the vast majority of the population is pacified, if they can create the illusion of an "all - volunteer" army, then they effectively undercut the anti-war movement by pacifying the people who previously supplied the troops for the war machine. And in the long term, by pacifying the middle and lower class, the corporate structure undercuts the progressive movement. How many people who later fought for women's rights, for the rights of the GLBT community, for the environmental movement first got their start in the left in the anti-war movement, became exposed to progessive ideas because they were in contact with members of the civil rights movement or the labor movement. Sorry to go, but I always find it odd that I have found that many vets and many resisters from that terrible time continually find common ground.

[era veteran]

74. Maybe not so odd

I really despised George Bush because of the National Guard thing. He rich boy'd his way in past a waiting list of others trying to avoid the draft. I call him a draft dodger. On the other hand I have friends who went to prison because of their conviction against the war, I call them heroes. I dodged the draft by joining the Army for four years, I went to Germany. I despise the people who used their Daddy to get them out of the draft. All the draftdodging sons of bitches that started this Iraq shit should be hung. My family soldiers when necessary. I, too, have sons, two, that could be subject to the draft. The caste system Army is wrong. Edit addition... I respect C.O. people.

[Lilith Velkor]

79. Power will not enact a universal draft, either

Think it through.

[era veteran]

98. That's what the ballot box is for

We must use the people's power.

[Lilith Velkor]

109. The people don't get to vote on legislation, let alone create it

Otherwise we'd have had single payer for years by now.

[PVnRT]

80. No, it isn't funny

Neither is forcing young people to go to war and die to satisfy one's political aims.

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. American voters don't want a draft

The last time the House voted on reinstating the draft the effort failed 402-2:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll494.xml

[StarfarerBill]

49. No.

Like health care "reform", such conscription legislation would be so twisted as to guarantee that only working-class people would be forced into the meatgrinder as they always have been in the past.

[AngryOldDem]

55. Yep.. and put this country on a pure, wartime footing...

...where supporting the war goes MUCH further than slapping a yellow ribbon on the back of your car and singing "Proud to be an American."

[MidwestRick]

59. No thanks

Keep your draft. I'd prefer to see the military as a volunteer force only at this point.

With that said...bring the troops home now.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chill_wind]

67. It won 't happen, any more than the embedded msm will give it a human face

in its true ugly costs and reality on the nightly news. A decision that's worked pretty well for 9 years.

Less talk. More war.

Go shopping.

[era veteran]

68. This is my pollyanna wish, Buffy said it best

To a point, soldiers are used and thrown away. http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGWsGyNsw00

[jtuck004]

69. Agree

If we are committed to this (whatever the definition of "this" is), then all Americans should be committed. A draft is necessary to insure this. Along with whatever resources (manufacturing, etc) that we need to ensure victory. Whatever that is. (What is our goal - I forget. There have been so many)

If not, we should get out. Now. (Because half-ass shit gets good people killed).

[democrank]

70. If you want this war, go fight it.

And, before you go, write a paper on how we "win."

[MidwestRick]

78. lame arguement n/t

[JoeyT]

71. Oh nonsense.

The people with the political and monetary capital wouldn't get drafted. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a damned fool.
They'd just send their kids to "college" in another country, pay a doctor to diagnose them with a condition that would render them unfit for service, or a host of other outs. What you're suggesting would turn an entire generation of poor and middle class kids into a PTSD nightmare. We do *not* need more veterans that our country isn't willing to take care of after it fucks them up. Period.
Oh, and anyone that was drafted into the military that dies because the machine isn't going to give up its oil? Their blood would be on your hands, your soul, and your conscience.

If you want to make ballsy statements about passing bills that would end the wars, start trying to create a war tax that starts at 50% for anyone making over $100k a year. Within five years we'd be as warlike as Norway.

[era veteran]

75. I don't agree

Universal Draft no outs, then war for profit would stop. All the dead soldiers are on my conscience now. We are all Americans & this vile war started in our name. Hang bush,cheney,rumsfeld, & the neocons. Lets set an example for future imperialistic 'leaders'. Again, a no fucking exemption universal draft would stop war for profit. Peace, Richard

[county worker]

81. The draft has never stopped a war. Not WWII not Vietnam.

The draft went on until we grew tired of the war. You cannot prove that the draft ended the Vietnam war and you can't prove that the draft will end this war or any future war. I is pure theory with the consequence of putting more people in the pipeline to get killed in war.
All the draft does is increase the number of available troops thus enabling escalation. If you support a draft you are supporting war period. This from a draftee.

[era veteran]

99. The draft mobilized this country

When the pre lottery draft was in effect only the poor went. It was determined by local draft boards. After this ruled unconstitutional the lottery went into effect. I think I remember it as only used 2 or 3 years. Then the war was declared won and the VOLAR Army started. Do you think we should have a professional warrior class? Shouldn't everyone in a Republic share the sacrifice for the greater good? Do you think all of this is moot because we should do away with a standing Army? A draft doesn't mean escalation it just get a cross section of the demographic. Were you a lottery draftee? Peace, Richard

[county worker]

108. I was drafted in 1966, the war ended 9 years later. The draft did not end the war.

That idea is one of the DU fantasies. These are things that if enough people here believe in them than they must be true.

Before the lottery there were deferments for college and married persons and some others. Well connected people kept their kids out of war. Most deferments went away with the lottery but the war went on for 6 more years. The lottery started in 1969 and Saigon fell in April 1975. I don't see how anyone can make the connection with the draft and the end of the war. It is not even a rational argument. It sounds good I guess.

A draft increases the pool of possible combatants which enables escalation of wars. If there were a draft today Obama could send in 100,000 troops. The war would not end any sooner. Just more people would lose their lives for nothing.

If you believe in a draft you believe in war. You may say what you like but the reason for a draft is to grow the military for combat.

[JoeyT]

97. Yeah, that'd probably end our wars.

Though not the way you think it would.
"No outs"? Do you have any idea what this would do? What kind of backlash this would create on anyone insane enough to push this policy through?
"Yeah, we knew he was borderline psychotic and he kept talking about how Nixon was using the Chevron sign to steal his thoughts and give them to the Russians, but we never knew he'd go nuts and detonate a bomb in his own barracks." or "Sure he had spinal damage that confined him to a wheelchair, but his arms worked well enough that we thought he'd be able to hold a gun..."
If you allow outs for medical or psychological conditions, rich people are going to get out of it. It's what happens when you can pay people off. If you don't allow outs for those, you can look forward to arming people that are flat out crazy and giving them the training to back it up and sending people that aren't fit for combat into combat. Those are your choices.

Or we could create a draconian war tax and force people to pay for the wars as they're waged. Which is what should've been done in the first place. The various breeds of hawk would discover a nice cup of STFU the second it started costing them money.

Besides, if we're willing to kill peoples' children to make a point, how the hell are WE any different from the neo-cons?

[era veteran]

100. My point again is The rich won't start war for profit if their kids are subject

I am sorry I did not go into more detail about 'no outs' . People that are physically & mentally challenged, of course should not be drafted but this should be certified by military doctors, not the Doctor down the street. In other words a fucking anal cyst would not keep you out. Point again A universal / fair draft would eliminate wars for profit. why should the poor fight the wars for the rich? Why?

[JoeyT]

103. We agree about the outcome, we're just disagreeing on how to get it.

I still don't think a draft would phase them in the slightest. When you've got the kind of money the war profiteers do, you can buy a whole lot of fixing. No matter what the law says. Plus a multi-billionaire's kid isn't gonna be cannon fodder. If all else failed they'd pull strings and get them assigned to support or stateside. Which still wouldn't be a deterrent. Hell I'm not convinced they wouldn't kill their own kids with their own bare hands for the money. It's not like they're exactly bastions of moral behavior.

The reason I suggested a tax wasn't to deter the war profiteers. Nothing is going to deter them. What I meant by a huge war tax was to create one while we weren't at war. Then the next time someone demands we go to war for a stupid reason, the American public would riot.
The entire reason we have to listen to regular Joes and Janes talking about how the war is the greatest thing ever is because it doesn't and won't touch them. Neither will a draft. They'd be proud their kid was killin' furners (Especially Muslim ones) whether there was a reason for it or not. Tell them they're going to give up half their income for the privilege of seeing foreigners die and their tune would change instantly.

Like I said, we agree on the desirable outcome: Poor people shouldn't be fodder for the wars of the rich. We're just disagreeing on the best way to change peoples' minds. I suspect you're less of a cynical bastard than I am is probably the reason. ;)

[era veteran]

105. I would like to use the ballot box

Justice screws the poor and favors the rich. We need to vote the right people in. I am a complete cynical bastard myself except I have some hope that maybe enough people may see the light. Universal Draft Now Peace, Richard Hey good luck, I have to call it a night. Later

[Ruby the Liberal]

82. Murtha proposed just such a bill going into this mess.

Or was it Charlie Rangle?

Either way, I am behind it 110%.

[Waiting For Everyman]

84. Very naive and disheartening coming from Dems

Ask a boomer. And listen. Hard.

The wealthy get deferments, and the poor and/or middle class get drafted. Do you really (REALLY) think it would ever work differently than that? REALLY, now????

This is by far the most off-base idea I've ever seen on DU - because it's actually seriously being promoted.

No. Trust us boomers on this, a draft is not a good thing.

[rateyes]

87. I am a boomer. I am simply pointing out the damned hypocrisy

of our Congress. They won't put skin in the game, therefore they should get us out of the goddammed wars. If they aren't willing to fight, or have their children fight, then they shouldn't be funding this shit.

[era veteran]

101. Lottery changed that

[DailyGrind51]

89. You want to see REAL in-the-streets activism, bring back the draft!

[glen123098]

90. Yeah lets reinstate the draft and give Obama more cannon fodder

Right that will work out.

[ncteechur]

92. I think conscription is a better idea.

[WonderGrunion]

106. Pikachu! I Draft YOU!!!

It's easy to draft other people isn't it. You're no better than what you claim you're fighting against.

[avaistheone1]

111. Draft the children of the 5% wealthiest in our country. These are the people who profit from war.

That would shut the war down fast.