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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:33 PM
Original message
What I want to hear from President Obama about Afghanistan
http://www.opednews.com/articles/What-I-want-to-hear-from-P-by-Steven-Leser-091129-607.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Steven Leser

I am someone who voted for President Obama, supported his campaign and continue to support his policies as President. Most of what he has done is straight out of his campaign promises. Some of those promises are coming along more slowly, but if you read his campaign platform, you can discern where he is going before he even goes there. Afghanistan is a bit different. Nowhere in his campaign literature or online pronouncements did he talk about escalating in Afghanistan. He talked about winning and if he escalates that may give him some room to say that he isn't going against campaign promises, but as a supporter there are a number of things I need to hear to understand whatever is coming in terms of a policy change.

My quandary

I believe that we were right to remove the Taliban from power in Afghanistan. I believe the Taliban provided protection and other aid and comfort to Al Qaeda, the group that attacked us on 9/11. I believe that when we asked the Taliban to hand over members of Al Qaeda that we deemed responsible, they refused to honor that request. I therefore wonder whether if we leave Afghanistan now or in the short term, will that allow the Taliban to reassert control over Afghanistan? If so, what is different now than the five years before September 11th during which Bin Laden and his lieutenants plotted to attack the United States? Will not the Taliban allow Al Qaeda to resume operations from Afghanistan unhindered? If the choice is between remaining in Afghanistan and fighting a war of attrition on the one hand, and another attack on the US on the other, I would vote for remaining in Afghanistan.

Is the choice that simple? I do not know and thus there is my quandary. The Republicans and hawks within the Democratic Party will undoubtedly make the choice out to be that simple. For conservatives, the slightest whiff of a provocation or threat is tantamount to a complete justification for war. Unfortunately, many on my side of the aisle are oversimplifying this situation too. “It's like Vietnam, we should just get out.” is a theme I hear a lot. I wasn't alive during Vietnam, but I'm pretty sure from reading my history that neither the North Vietnamese nor any subgroup they housed on their soil ever attacked the continental United States. In fact, Ho Chi Minh attempted to meet and negotiate with the winning countries including the United States at the end of the first and second world wars to negotiate a free Vietnam presided over by Vietnamese, not foreign powers. I don't think we ever had such a thing (an offer to negotiate with them before they started fighting and killing) from Bin Laden or Al Qaeda. No one ever thought that as a result of pulling out of Vietnam that there was a realistic threat of a group supported by North Vietnamese executing a terrorist attack on the United States, nor did any group ever threaten anything like that. They simply wanted to us to leave so they could govern themselves. Ho Chi Minh, while he believed in an ideology that was significantly different from ours, seemed fairly reasonable at least in comparison with the likes of Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Omar and Ayman al Zawahiri.

“Get out of Afghanistan, it's like Vietnam” is a frequent theme on OpEdNews.com where I write and articles with that theme get a lot of positive responses. I am curious whether any of the authors of those articles or those who pen supportive replies are willing to go on record saying that they are relatively certain that an exit from Afghanistan will not eventually result in another Al Qaeda attack on the United States. If so, I would also like to hear the reasoning behind that belief. If they cannot or will not make such assurances, is it OK to them that we might get attacked if we leave? It seems to me that a situation where we are genuinely preventing another attack on the United States is perhaps one of the few reasons we should ever be at war. The problem, of course, is that such justification has been used disingenuously so many times, many on the left refuse to believe it even when it seems logical and appropriate to the situation.

What is the current situation?

There was a recent post that garnered a lot of responses on Democratic Underground with a title along the lines of “Do you really know what is going on in Afghanistan?” The poster and several responders felt that they knew what was going on but in many cases their interpretations were mutually exclusive of each other. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x21881

If grassroots Democrats disagree on even what the situation is now, there cannot be any agreement on or support for a course of action. I was even more curious to see the posts on Free Republic if one does a search on Afghanistan on that site. One gets postings like these:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2396331/posts

- “Isn't the lesson of Viet Nam to not snatch Defeat from the jaws of Victory?”

- Obama's toughest challenge will be to win over his most loyal political supporters.

- His entire decision (or non-decision) on Afghanistan is politically motivated. He's going to put on a show at West Point and blame the former Commander in Chief's failure to capture Bin Laden as justification for committing more troops. He is the ulitmate coward.

See more of the same here, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2396317/posts , here http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2396313/posts and here http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2396306/posts

Freepers and, by extension, since I use them as a baseline for the rightmost half of the Republican Party, Republicans don't seem to have a strategy at all for what to do with Afghanistan. Republican grass roots discussions on Afghanistan seem geared towards whether Obama will “surrender”, whether Democrats were being honest when they said Iraq was the false war and Afghanistan is the real one, and other similar talk (when they weren't issuing odd, veiled threats against the President). I couldn't find many posts on Free Republic where a Freeper laid out a suggested course of action regarding Afghanistan. Admittedly, I didn't spend a ton of time researching, but this is very strange from a group that usually has a lot of detailed (and generally gung ho) suggestions about war. Regarding past conflicts like Iraq, it wasn't hard to find suggestions from Freepers about how the war should be waged. It is curious to me that it is hard now.

What this all tells me is that we all need to hear from the President exactly what the current situation is in Afghanistan and wherever else elements of Al Qaeda and the Taliban may be hiding in the region (i.e. Pakistan). How well or how badly is the war going and which regions are doing well and which ones are doing badly? I want to know WHY are things going well or badly overall and regionally. I want to know what things are lacking that are causing any issues for US forces.

Have we conducted ourselves in a way that has caused ourselves problems with the Afghan people? If so, what did we do that was wrong? Have we lost the support of a majority of the people in Afghanistan? If so, is there a reasonable chance we can win that support back? If they don't support us, are they willing to help us at least in terms of building infrastructure and a central government? If, as many people say, Afghanistan is so “tribalized” (yes, I know that is not a real word) that a central government will not be supported in general, is there appropriate strategy that takes that into account? The President needs to explain all of this so that we can use our own judgment to determine whether we support his actions.

What is the desired end state for the US?

I need to hear this not only from Obama, but anyone who proposes an alternate plan. If someone proposes we pull out, what is the end state that they believe this will achieve? What are each of the groups involved, i.e., the US, the Northern Alliance, the Taliban and Al Qaeda, doing in that end state. How do they feel about the United States? What is different in any end state from the situation as it existed on September 10, 2001?

I need to hear from President Obama what the consequences are of not achieving our desired end state and on a related issue, what he believes our adversaries are trying to achieve.

A secondary issue with regard to the desired end state is one of the treatment of women in a post US involvement Afghanistan. Many of my progressive friends challenge me with the question, “Why is it our responsibility or right to make Afghanistan what we want it to be in terms of rights for women, etc.” My simple response is that we broke it, so now we've bought it, to borrow a phrase from Colin Powell. Once you take over a country, you are responsible for it. It may be that the most responsible thing we can do is to pull out, I grant that possibility. But, if we remain, or if we are going to escalate or take any action, we ought to try to do what we can for women's rights in that country.

Is the desired end state achievable? If not, is there a fallback plan of objectives and strategy to get there or to a plan B end state?

One of the main issues I see that is problematic for any escalation is a lack of public support. Democrats in general do not seem to be willing to support an escalation for very long, if at all, and Republicans don't support President Obama no matter what he does. You could ask a majority of Freepers what they would do right now as President and if Obama did exactly those things, they still wouldn't support him. Where does that leave him if he needs support for his actions? Assuming he goes ahead with an escalation, he has perhaps 3-9 months for that escalation to work before it becomes politically untenable.

An interesting role reversal is coming up regarding the additional troops that may be sent to Afghanistan. Will Republicans cheer for the success of those troops and the mission? If not, can we Democrats who support the effort accuse them of not supporting the troops?

Can we afford to continue this war? The answer to that in my opinion is definitely not. But sometimes you have to do things you technically cannot afford if the need to do them is great enough. Is the need great enough here? President Obama needs to address all of these questions.

If we are going to escalate, and it seems from all accounts that the President has made that decision, why only 30,000 troops? If the President believes there is an objective we can achieve and is necessary for us to achieve, and I hope he is right, then he needs to throw overwhelming force at it. Why not send at a minimum 60,000 or 100,000 additional troops? If you have to go to war, I don't believe you send barely enough troops to achieve victory. That makes things worse for all involved, including the enemy and innocent civilians. My fellow anti-war friends are not going to be happy with how I say this, but if you have to go to war, go with overwhelming force, hit the enemy with everything you have and finish it quickly. A war where one side is barely stronger than the other causes prolonged wars of attrition where the suffering is magnified exponentially. So, I suppose my final request and words of advice to the President are, if you have made the decision to escalate and you are sure that decision is the correct one, please, don't do it half-heartedly. Allocate enough troops to make sure that we can take care of business quickly. This is particularly important if there is a short window of support for an escalation. Err on the side of sending MORE troops, more quickly. Leave no possibility that afterwards, you and your advisers will be sitting around a table lamenting that more troops weren't sent.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. I want to hear him perfectly recite the Bhagavad Gita in front of a large screen playing...
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 04:24 PM by Oregone
Sound of Music, preferably dressed in something High Fashion related.

Im not sure why particularly, but it may well be worth a giggle.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you for a well thought out post.
I think you are asking many of the right questions. The debate does need to evaluate between what happens when we stay versus what happens when we leave.

I don't hear that debate though. I hear what happens if we leave tomorrow versus what happens if we double our troop force. And, that is part of what is so frustrating. No where in the debate, which was mostly had out behind closed doors and through leaks, has an alternative been presented of an draw-down. They, as far as I can tell, are not even considering that. I think the question should no longer be how to win. The question should be what is the most direct and most secure way to get out. The premise should start with how to leave, not how to achieve success based on 8 year old objectives. As it is now, we are forced to defend, protect and fund a corrupt government, that most of the country doesn't recognize. Is it worth it the sacrifice so much to build a government, and army and a police force in another country?

Al qaeda is gone from Afghanistan. A handful went to Paksitan, but more are in other parts of the world, and other tangential extremist organizations are spread across the world. This isn't a war that can be fought with an occupier army. The 'war on terrorism' is not even really a war. Terrorism is the tactic and it is not coming solely or even primarily from the mountains on the AfPak border. Our military being there is a target and a recruitment device. We where hit on 9/11 because we still had troops in Saudi Arabia. Just think what we are creating in AfPak now.

As for your point of overwhelming force, that is not possible. We have 40,000 troops total-literally-who can be sent into battle. Troops get guaranteed rest between deployments, so we will be sending almost the entirety of who is available.

We can't afford it. We don't have the troops to do what is actually being prescribed. We don't have the support of the American people. It is going to take almost as long as your time-frame for results to get the troops there. It is a recipe for disaster. When Obama added 22,000 from Jan-June, the body count rose with it. The same thing will occur with the next escalation. The American people will sour more and quickly. Our allies are no longer seeing the worth or necessity of it. Canada is on the way out (with another one, Denmark?) and Germany won't last much longer. The Brits are tiring.

We need to establish our baseline as withdrawal. What is the best condition we can leave the country in with that as the primary objective. It will be far from perfect. But, it will be better than when we went in in 2001. And, it will be better than what we are doing to the place now. Set the goals, and make it happen on our way out.

We can't rebuild the house as we leave, but we can take our destructive asses our.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. I wonder if the 40K is an accurate ceiling. I am sure you researched, but I wonder if
it is real. Even with mandatory rest periods between deployments, one can call up reservists, enact stop loss (which I am not a fan of mind you), you could do an emergency drawdown of Iraq and send those folks that can be spared from there to Afghanistan etc.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks Steven for more
intelligent contribution on this agonizing reality.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Obama talked about putting more troops into Afghanistan often......
and just because folks wanted to be nice to George Bush and called his increase of troops in Iraq a "Surge", but somehow this President who did promise to increase troops for the two years that he was running is faced with folks who insist on calling him doing just that an "escalation".......
doesn't mean he didn't exactly state that he would increase troops in Afghanistan.

Sorry you missed it. :shrug:



"For at least a year now, I have called for two additional brigades, perhaps three."
Barack Obama, Sunday, July 20th, 2008.

Ruling:

SUMMARY: We check out the Obama campaign's claims on Afghanistan and find a good bit of truth. We also recall old claims about Pakistan.
Sen. John McCain has praised the surge in Iraq for bringing greater stability to the region, and has reminded voters that he long supported it. But while Iraq was stabilizing, the situation in Afghanistan was deteriorating.

So on July 15, 2008, the McCain campaign released "a new comprehensive strategy for victory in Afghanistan" that applies "the tried and true principles of counterinsurgency used in the Iraq surge."

His new policy includes sending at least three additional brigades to Afghanistan. "Our commanders on the ground say they need these troops, and thanks to the success of the surge, these forces are becoming available," states the campaign's strategy outline.

Sen. Barack Obama's campaign pounced on this news. By the end of the week, spokesman Bill Burton had sent out a memo titled, "Obama leading on foreign policy, McCain following."

"This past week, Senator McCain changed his position for political reasons, embracing Obama's call for more troops the day after Obama restated it in a New York Times op-ed, and almost one year after Obama's initial plan," Burton wrote.

We reviewed the candidates' past statements to determine whether McCain has changed position to match Obama.

Back on Aug. 1, 2007, Obama gave a major foreign policy speech at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington, D.C.

The speech got a lot of attention because Obama said that the United States should aggressively pursue terrorists hiding in the mountains of Pakistan. "If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said. (See our previous Truth-O-Meter rulings about Obama's stance on Pakistan here, here and here.)

But Obama also talked about the need for the United States to turn its attention to Afghanistan. (See our related statement here.)

"Our troops have fought valiantly there, but Iraq has deprived them of the support they need — and deserve," Obama said. "As a result, parts of Afghanistan are falling into the hands of the Taliban, and a mix of terrorism, drugs and corruption threatens to overwhelm the country. As president, I would deploy at least two additional brigades to Afghanistan to re-enforce our counterterrorism operations and support NATO's efforts against the Taliban."

In the months that followed, Obama repeatedly emphasized his assertion that the United States "had taken our eye off the ball" by invading Iraq instead of concentrating on Afghanistan.

Be all that as it may, Obama advocated more troops for Afghanistan about a year ago. McCain only recently embraced the same position.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jul/22/obama-ballyhoos-afghan-stance/




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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That is the second weakest response to arguments against the escalation.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 05:14 PM by tekisui
The first weakest is, 'Wait till Tuesday, you don't know nuthin' yet.'

We all know what his position is. We all knew what it was for the past two years. We voted for him in spite of that foolish position. Would you have preferred all the anti-war Dems not voting for him?

I think not.

Repeated, ad naseum, that he is fulfilling a campaign promise it living in the past, and is not the issue. It is a red herring. The issue is a policy decision on war. It is no longer relevant to frame it as a campaign promise. Since the campaign promises, Obama ordered one surge and has seen the results of that--record US deaths and a corrupt illegitimate government. We can judge the effects of the first surge: horrible. Now, he is doing it again. It is a stupid decision and will hurt him politically.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Your assumption that they never discussed a pull-out is somewhat ridiculous too
You assume that ALL of the discussions were leaked - c'mon - ASSumptions are no better than the paper that they wereN'T written on.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I do assume that, and unless it is otherwise revealed, I'll
continue to think that.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. And Beck raped and murdered a young girl
:hi:
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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. TELL US MORE
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Firstzar Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. What about Santa?
You gonna wait a couple more years before making up your mind about HIM???
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
39. Santa!!!!!!
I love Santa!

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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I never get the argument
that he was always for expanding the war.

So what? That would just mean that he has always been wrong.

I guess I am to take it that the posters who argue this point were very supportive of george bush in his war efforts.

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RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. I'm confused by your argument, so basically you're saying that what he said during the campaign....
doesn't matter? That it should have been all smoke and mirrors?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. His first surge was disastrous.
Doubling that surge is going to be even worse. What he said on the campaign trail 2 years ago is no longer good policy. A lot has changed.

I am chiefly pointing out that those who wish to deflect the debate on how stupid of a move this is by rehashing a campaign platform are taking a weak position.

And, would you have rather the anti-war folks stayed home? We voted for him, we want him to listen and have more sense than this.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. The Soviets had peaked at a quarter million troops, and look where that got them? eom
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. Now that's how you make an argument
I'm glad that it appears Obama has put this much thought into his decision. It looks like responses will focus on one little aspect of your post or make assumptions about information that can't know since we weren't in meetings with Obama. I have nothing to add - I more or less agree with what you have said, though I'm not sure we even have enough troops to do an "overwhelming" show of force. I'll be listening intently on Tuesday.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. How many troops do we have available? n/t

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. Could those who see these as valuble points, Please Rec'd?
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 05:57 PM by Cha
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I'm on it n/m
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thanks!
I think sometimes we forget to Rec'd the most interesting analysis..they sure don't forget to unrec it.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Thank's Cha. Interesting, I know a lot of folks unrec'ed and rec'd
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 08:31 PM by stevenleser
We dont hear much from the unrec'ers though. Wonder why that is?

edited: corrected here-->hear. Man, when I do things too quickly...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. One word..
chickenshit.

Sorry, this isn't getting Rec'd enough to get more exposure..I will personally try to keep it kicked for the pertinent amount of time.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. If so, it trancends DU. As you probably know, folks on OEN are very progressive
and as I noted in the article are nearly universally calling for withdrawal and pounding on Obama for not doing it, but so far, only one person has responded and that is one of the folks who believe that 9/11 was an inside job, so they are coming from that standpoint.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. But, do the people calling for immediate
withdrawal have all the info that the President is working with?
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. They assert the same as Shortnfiery below.
But, like Shortnfiery, did not address many of the points raised. It's all about oil to them.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. They're stuck in a
time warp.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. It's about pipelines and enriching the MIC to the ruling elite.
It's our duty to say "no more!" Of course they are that cold and calculating, there's over a TRILLION of our tax dollars to be "gifted" to their privatized corporations.

The Taliban did NOT attack us on 9/11. Killing the Taliban in support of the corrupt and illegitimate Karzai government is inserting our troops in the middle of a CIVIL WAR.

That's truly insane. The Soviets had over 250,000 troops in Afghanistan at one point and could not pacify the country. What makes you think that 34,000 USA and maybe 5000 of NATO troops (39,000 Total) is going to do what the Soviet Army's hardened quarter MILLION couldn't do?
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Two talking point phrases in one subject
"Enriching the MIC" and "to the Ruling elite"

As I noted earlier, if a group in country A attacks country B and country A refuses to turn them over, then the government of country A is responsible. So, they are accessories to the group that attacked country B. Note that virtually no other country opposed our right to go into Afghanistan nor is any UN group asserting that international law has been broken.

The Soviet Troops were not beaten by the Afghans. They were beaten by US support of the Afghans. Without us, the Afghan's fighting the Soviets would have been cannon fodder.

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Oh, I'm sorry - I forgot that we, the mighty USA, is all powerful -
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 01:23 AM by ShortnFiery
With God on our side, the reason that a quarter MILLION Soviets couldn't conquer Afghanistan is simply because of the USA's covert support of their enemy! :crazy:

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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Do you really need me to go into detail about what that support entailed?
I realize now I have been wasting my time with you. You arent interested in an honest debate.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. Gen. Shinseki's thoughts are on this issue would be enlightening. I'm sure Pres. Obama knows.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 08:39 PM by ClarkUSA
Someday, perhaps we will know, too.

Thanks for the impressive op-ed, Steve.

I'll read it all later and then come back for a dialogue.

K&R
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. What? The Karzai Government is just as corrupt and still ultra-patriarchal.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 08:54 PM by ShortnFiery
So then, although the Taliban had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11, we are going to send our troops to KILL THEM in order to prop up an EQUALLY CORRUPT SYSTEM because the head THUG of this government, illegitimately re-elected is "our guy" = Karzai?

That's insane! To send our soldiers out to kill and die for "the Mayor of Kabul," ultra-corrupt THUG, Hamid Karzai, former Unicol Executive.

No way in hell that I'm signing on to get our youth killed for OIL pipelines. :puke:

We must withdraw our troops to the periphery and let THE NATIVES settle their own CIVIL WAR. If the Taliban win, so be it. They have NO LOVE LOST for al Qaeda, therefore, I don't worry about them taking over the place.


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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Oh boy, where to start...
So then, although the Taliban had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11, we are going to send our troops to KILL THEM in order to prop up an EQUALLY CORRUPT SYSTEM because the head THUG of this government, illegitimately re-elected is "our guy" = Karzai?

- They harbored Al Qaeda and refused to turn them over to us when we asked for them to be extradited. That is a macro equivalent of an "accessory after the fact".

That's insane! To send our soldiers out to kill and die for "the Mayor of Kabul," ultra-corrupt THUG, Hamid Karzai, former Unicol Executive.

We must withdraw our troops to the periphery and let THE NATIVES settle their own CIVIL WAR. If the Taliban win, so be it. They have NO LOVE LOST for al Qaeda, therefore, I don't worry about them taking over the place.

- Are you prepared to go on record (which is perhaps an insane thing to even ask since I am asking it of an internet handle) as saying that there will be no attacks on the US resulting from withdrawal? Are you 100% certain of that, and if so, why?


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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. I know that if we continue to occupy these two Muslim Nations, AMERICANS will be ...
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 11:34 PM by ShortnFiery
LESS SAFE both at home and abroad.

Newsflash: Afghanistan is not the CENTRAL FRONT. al Qaeda is DECENTRALIZED.

NO, we have no right to KILL people who had nothing to do with 9/11 merely because elements of al Qaeda were allowed to set up camp there. By now the Taliban have "figured out" that al Qaeda is NOT WELCOME.

The Taliban is NOT GLOBAL and have only LOCAL interest.

I repeat so this can FULLY PROCESS = The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Why is Obama chasing after bin Laden, who is in Pakistan, by sending troops to Afghanistan?
Isn't that like having FDR invade Mexico after Pearl Harbor?
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Garam_Masala Donating Member (711 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Because if we invade Pakistan all hell breaks lose
You have to remember 75% of pakistani's are sympathetic to Taliban.
As a matter of fact Taliban was conceived, nurtured, supported and funded by
elements in Pakistan.

If Americans attack Pakistan, CIA is certain the current regime will collapse
and the country taken over by islamic fundies.

AND UNLIKE IRAN PAKISTAN ALREADY HAS NUKES>>>MANY OF THEM.

So the only option the president has is to strengthen our military footprint
in Afghanistan and mount attacks on Al Qaeda & Taliban strongholds operating
in the border region of Pakistan which is notorious for being lawless.
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SpartanDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. IMO there is too little talk here and the MSM about strategy
it's as if two options leave now or going in with guns a blazin' when that is just not the case.

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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #35
42. Exactly. The article as written seems to have gone over many people's heads. Its not what you think
it's WHY and HOW.

Those who have criticized the article haven't been able to provide much if anything in the way of facts and links to back them up. That is the whole point. There are a lot of strong opinions with very little backup.
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optimator Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
37. stop the fearmongering
we aren't going to be attacked if we leave.

we weren't attacked by them in the first place.

They do not have the means or ability.

Stop living in fear and promoting fear.

War and violence are only to be used as the very last DEFENSE.

And nobody can claim with any honesty that this is about defense.

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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. OK, but you saying that doesnt make it so. You realize that, dont you?
Any evidence to back you up? That is the point. I want to hear not just what one thinks but WHY they think that.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Steven, have you read this open letter to Michael Moore from Pres
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Yes, very persuasive.
I'm very unlikely at this point to support a surge/escalation or whatever else you want to call it.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I was wrong..it wasn't
from Pres Obama..it was a dk poster using Obama's name.

I'm just interested in what the President has to say tomorrow night.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
38. This is how to make an argument
Why are people unreccing this? What? Oh, you mean you really don't want to have an argument based on discussing all the facts as we know them? Ahh, got it!

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