Indeed, DU would be dissatisfied with any Democratic president had it existed back in the days

[bluestateguy]

These would have been the DU criticisms from DU had it been around when the previous presidents were in office:

Clinton: welfare reform, DOMA, DADT, degregulation of telecommunications, repeal of Glass-Steagall, NAFTA, GATT, permanent MFN status for China, his punitive war on drugs policies, expansion of the death penalty in the federal system, cutting capital gains taxes, Bob Rubin and Larry Summers. The single payer people would have been angry that he never pursued their idea during the health care debate. Indeed, the Clinton plan didn't even have a public option at all.

Carter: airline deregulation, trucking deregulation, his buddy-buddy relationship with the Shah of Iran, cutting capital gains taxes, appointing Paul Volcker to the Fed, building up the military budget in his last year in office, the 1980 Olympic boycott, bringing back draft registration (Oh God, the conspiracy theorists must have had a field day).

LBJ: Vietnam, nuff said.

JFK: pissing off the steelworkers union during the steel price dispute in 1962, the Bay of Pigs fiasco would have pissed off the doves, being a slowpoke on civil rights, opposing the Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, his creeping escalation of "advisors" in Vietnam.

Truman: dropping the atomic bombs, his "loyalty" program to weed out alleged communists in government, Korea, his hard line against the Soviets, and generally being the architect of Cold War foreign policy, which required a large peacetime military establishment and resumption of the draft. He was also a slowpoke on civil rights.

FDR: doing next to nothing on civil rights, that whole Japanese internment thing, making Social Security a limited program when it first started, waiting 5 years to pass the Fair Labor Standards Act, welcoming the business community as a full participating partner in the core New Deal program from 1933-35: the National Recovery Administration, not playing a leading role in passing the Wagner Act (National Labor Relations Act) and leaving the legislating to Congress on that issue; FDR was indifferent to the policy, but signed it; cutting New Deal programs in 1937-38. Finally, the stubborn persistence of double digit unemployment (it was "as low" as 14% in 1936) would have surely generated catcalls from the Left about how the New Deal was not sufficiently radical to meet the challenges of the times.

I'll cover Woodrow Wilson and the 19th century Democratic presidents in a day or two.

[tekisui]

1. The point being what exactly?

We should lower our expectations? Take what they give us? Not ask for more or better?

Huey P. Long was to the left of FDR. FDR's New Deal didn't do enough to redistribute wealth, in his opinion. We are a bunch of lefties here. We will always be pushing our representatives (especially the ones we vote for) to the Left.

[jwirr]

2. +1

[Skittles]

3. DAMN STRAIGHT

[QC]

4. It's just another STFU thread. There are 30-40 of them a day.

This one does include some actual research, though, so it's a much stronger effort than most.

[havocmom]

6. Presenting the case for a little applied perspective is not the same as STFU

Applying a little perspective would make that easier to grasp.

[ClarkUSA]

7. Where does the OP say anything close to STFU? I don't see it. In fact, it's quite neutral.

:shrug:

[tekisui]

8. I still don't see the point.

Had DU been around for 100 years, every event would have been debated ad naseum. There would be hundreds of threads on all sides of every major (or sensational) moment in political or pop culture.

I am failing to see the point of this OP.

[ClarkUSA]

12. What's the "point" about complaining repeatedly on a thread that an OP doesn't have a "point"?

:shrug:

[tekisui]

13. I am trying to understand the motives, or what they are implying.

I guess the point is that DU is better than our Democratic leaders.

[ClarkUSA]

38. The OP is very straightforward in its message to me. It offers perspective outside of the fishbowl.

:shrug:

[tekisui]

42. The fishbowl being DU?

And, that no one other than the posters on DU would hold positions that counter those Democratic Administration mistakes?

[ClarkUSA]

49. No, the fishbowl being this sliver in time, as opposed to the whole of a historical timeline.

<<And, that no one other than the posters on DU would hold positions that counter those Democratic Administration mistakes?>>

DU government critics do not hold a more exalted position in terms of intellectually honest issue analysis over DKos or Andrew
Sullivan, for example. Quite the opposite occurs here 24/7.

[tblue]

26. Is it our fault if they don't adhere to Demicratic principle at times?

[LWolf]

11. +2

[treestar]

15. No, the point was that you'd have been dissatisfied then too

And thus have been dissatisfied your entire life, and probably will continue to be forever.

There has been progress in my lifetime, and I'm glad for it and don't plan on quitting because it does not happen fast enough. It never does. There's no point in being dissatisfied with the party most likely to preside over it.

[tekisui]

18. LOL!

I'll take dissatisfaction over compromising values.

Some point made there.:wtf:

[AllentownJake]

33. Forgive me for sounding stupid

But when in Human History has anything changed because people were satisfied with the status quo?

[derby378]

19. Another +1 right here

:hi:

[bluestateguy]

24. If you can't see the point, the problem is yours, not mine

I can't help you there.

[tekisui]

25. Is your point that DU has better judgment than our Democratic leaders?

Are those things on your list good things that we were better serve not having opposition to them?

[AllentownJake]

37. Awesome way to point out the absurdity of this post

There have been two posts that made me want to vomit in the past 4 days, and this is one of them.

:yourock:

[tekisui]

40. The Afghanistan Surge

is pushing those who defend-right-or-wrong into untenable positions. There arguments are becoming increasingly absurd and illogical.

[AllentownJake]

43. Yes in the past 4 days I've learned

1) Democratic Presidents have done horrible things in the past. Give the President a break
2) Do you want to live with the political consequences of a withdrawal and another terrorist attack (not the effects of the terrorist attack, the political consequences of it).
3) Gay rights activist want to have pride parade down Pennsylvania Avenue culminating in marriages in the East Room and they won't be happy till they get it.

[Odin2005]

45. And Huey Long was a wannabe dictator.

Your point?

[roguevalley]

63. I love how someone can speak for 150K people about what they

liked and disliked, their point of view on complex issues and the like. I wish to thank they for taking the work out of thinking for myself.

[Aramchek]

64. some people would rather act like jackasses than help to rest of us pull the load

they scream "you're not pulling fast enough or straight enough!"
yet they are not pulling at all.

[tekisui]

65. I will not help someone 'pull' a war along.

Fuck that.

[msallied]

68. The point being to have some historical perspective on these issues

In history, has there ever been a President who has adhered exactly to the preferences or policies of the base that helped elect him? No. So why is the sky just now falling?

[ClarkUSA]

5. Very true but expect to be denigrated for your mature, historical viewpoint from the usual suspects.

K&R and kudos from me, though. :thumbsup:

[tekisui]

9. Are you defending the list?

DOMA, DADT, degregulation of telecommunications, repeal of Glass-Steagall, NAFTA, GATT, permanent MFN status for China, his punitive war on drugs policies, expansion of the death penalty in the federal system, cutting capital gains taxes, Bob Rubin and Larry Summers. The single payer people would have been angry that he never pursued their idea during the health care debate. Indeed, the Clinton plan didn't even have a public option at all,airline deregulation, trucking deregulation, his buddy-buddy relationship with the Shah of Iran, cutting capital gains taxes, appointing Paul Volcker to the Fed, building up the military budget in his last year in office, the 1980 Olympic boycott, bringing back draft registration,Vietnam, pissing off the steelworkers union during the steel price dispute in 1962, the Bay of Pigs fiasco would have pissed off the doves, being a slowpoke on civil rights, opposing the Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, his creeping escalation of "advisors" in Vietnam, dropping the atomic bombs, his "loyalty" program to weed out alleged communists in government, Korea, his hard line against the Soviets, and generally being the architect of Cold War foreign policy, which required a large peacetime military establishment and resumption of the draft. He was also a slowpoke on civil rights, doing next to nothing on civil rights, that whole Japanese internment thing, making Social Security a limited program when it first started, waiting 5 years to pass the Fair Labor Standards Act, welcoming the business community as a full participating partner in the core New Deal program from 1933-35: the National Recovery Administration, not playing a leading role in passing the Wagner Act (National Labor Relations Act) and leaving the legislating to Congress on that issue; FDR was indifferent to the policy, but signed it; cutting New Deal programs in 1937-38. Finally, the stubborn persistence of double digit unemployment (it was "as low" as 14% in 1936) would have surely generated catcalls from the Left about how the New Deal was not sufficiently radical to meet the challenges of the times.

Are you going on record as supportive of these acts? Many are atrocities, war crimes and have led to the economic crises we have faced the last 30 years. You wouldn't have been supportive of all of this?

[ClarkUSA]

14. Your powers of deduction are faulty. I value the OP's historical perspective and factual research.

It's a quality all too lacking at GDP, unfortunately.

[tekisui]

35. I don't disagree that it has factual research and historical perspective,

it just leads to an ambiguous and contradictory conclusion.

[ClarkUSA]

39. Not at all. I like its refreshingly mature perspective. Of course, I don't have a suspicious nature.

:shrug:

[LWolf]

10. Of course.

I've never been a cheer-leading sort.

It's always been about the issues.

[AllentownJake]

16. Most of these guys did two steps forward one step back

Well Clinton took two steps back and his opponent wanted to take five steps back in both elections.

[FrenchieCat]

17. Aye, Barack Obama will be given a harder time than all of the Democratic President

in history simply due to so much Internet discussion,
which the Corporate media then filters through and selectively
determines how to manipulate for use in its own agenda.

Many stories start on the Internet and get picked up by the news media....
that's why you can have a story about a President bowing go mainstream....
while before, one had to actually throw up on the Chinese PM to make the cut.
it ain't because anyone in the Corp media would have thought that this Bow deserved attention normally, but when one can go on the Net and see 100s of posts in reference to such a story by both the Left and the Right, it becomes a perfect diversion not to report any substance of the actual trip.

Of course, Republicans don't have the same problem to this day, because the News Media appears to work for them....which is why the media didn't pay much attention to the us on the net while Bush was President.

Personally I love the Internet, and of course it has helped for the most part,
but with everything good comes the bad.....
as it is true that it allows a minority of posters/bloggers on the Internet
to color what the Corporate cable news media determines will become news.
Newspapers and network follow, cause they don't have anymore money to actually have bureaus everywhere, so the also look to the Internet, and dovetail Cable 24/7 "breaking news" bullshit.
Plus most of our news is now owned by giant corporation, and they work to protect their own interest, not ours.

So, you are exactly correct, that no Democratic President will ever fare well under the microscope and this will make it difficult for a him/her to govern.

In addition, Sarah Palin would be the big nobody that she really is, in another time in history.

[AllentownJake]

31. Really? That seems like bullshit to me

Let me see Bill Clinton was impeached over a blow job and has been a late-night joke for 15 years, Jimmy Carter has been persona non grata at party functions for the past 30 years except to wave from the crowd, Johnson had people shouting HEY HEY LBJ HOW MANY KID's YOU KILL TODAY on the White House Lawn, JFK was murdered, Harry Truman left office absolutely hated, went back to Missouri by train after Eisenhower refused to do the common courtesy of the innagural tea and ended up becoming friends with Herbert Hoover as they were the only two Americans with as much resentment thrown their way and developed a kinship, FDR had an attempted coup and had to deal with an anti-semetic Catholic Priest who was supporting Hitler, Wilson had his key program for future world peace gutted and spent his last days in the White House with rumors his wife was acting President after a stroke.

When Barack Obama is impeached, becomes a pariah in his own party, has screaming crowds of war protesters calling him a murderer from the White House gates (He might get this), I'm going to skip JFK (that is too horrible to contemplate), leaves office on a train in disgrace and becomes friends with Bush because he's the only one that can understand the level of hate he's experiencing, Has to deal with a coup, and I'm leaving out Wilson for the same reason as JFK.

[FrenchieCat]

48. You only speak of to what actually happened at that time,

without regard to what would have happened if they were here today governing.

My point is that if you think they had it bad, I'm saying it would be worse.

[AllentownJake]

52. Really?

You think an organized coup by Prescott Bush prevented by a General is less than President Obama has faced so far?

Do you think Tea Bagging is new?



The language hasn't changed in 50 years.

[AllentownJake]

53. Every Democrat has dealt with this since FDR

Fan of Hitler, had his own radio show, mixed populist rhetoric and conspiracies with antisemitism. Imagine Glenn Beck but he actually admits to liking Nazis and translates Goebells speeches for distribution in the US. Oh and he's a Catholic Priest, so he has some instant credibility.


This guy was quite effective for a while


This one got to be President


Before he was with the Tea Baggers he was gunning for Bill and Hillary

There is nothing new to these people. They've been around since the depression.

[Jamastiene]

20. Granted, you are probably right about our complaints, but

how will our elected leaders know what we want them to do if we do not voice our opinions? They work for us, remember? They might have the wheel, but we are reading the map and know where we want to go. That is why it is called public service.

[Major Hogwash]

21. You don't have any friends or family members serving in the military now?

People that will be directly affected by this president's decisions concerning Afghanistan and Iraq?

Putting more soldiers into Afghanistan won't solve a damned thing.
There is no "mission" to complete in Afghanistan.

[bluestateguy]

22. As a matter of fact I do

I do have a close friend in the Army, in fact. He fully supports an Afghanistan escalation, BTW.

Might not want to mouth off with remarks that you can't verify with facts there.

[Duende azul]

30. So support your friend, enlist.

[tekisui]

23. Too bad DU wasn't around during those times.

Maybe we could have raised some awareness about it.

[tblue]

27. I blindly follow no one. nt

[mopinko]

28. +1 more

it is tough to be a dem.

[quiet.american]

29. Well done. nt

[tekisui]

34. How is that well done?

The OP listed a bunch of things we should be ashamed of. Acts and policies that shouldn't have been implemented. There is a not so subtle suggestion that DU is too critical of Obama and would have been critical of those mentioned mistakes.

How is this well done?

Seriously, the Obama-right-or-wrong posters are drifting into illogicality.

[quiet.american]

73. I take the OP's point. Why is that a problem for you? nt

[Duende azul]

32. Tuesday is near...how's the paper going you were drafting?

[KansasVoter]

36. Wow, blaming the issue with Obama on the people who dislike his is not going to work.

[ClarkUSA]

41. Where'd the OP do that?

:shrug:

[Odin2005]

44. If this was 1933 DUers would be calling FDR a corporatist patsy.

Like many socialists were doing at the time.

[QC]

47. And you would be declaring that the Spanish American War generation

was the source of all evil in America.

[AllentownJake]

55. They were fucking pricks

I've burned all the pictures of my great-grandfather.

[QC]

56. They weren't as bad as Generation Jazz, with their flivvers and raccoon coats and cloche hats

and that damn Zelda and all their other flibbertigibbet and foofaraw.

They ruined America.

[AllentownJake]

57. I liked the Raccoon coats

but other than that they sucked.

[QC]

60. I once swallowed 48 goldfish in my raccoon coat.

[Yavin4]

62. DUers Would Complain That Obama Wasn't Doing Enough To Stop the Explotation of Raccoons

which are being butchered to make coats!

[ZombieHorde]

46. By "DU," do you mean some but not all on DU? nt

[Moochy]

67. The OP means the Bad DU

You know, the portion of DU that disagrees with you.

[ZombieHorde]

72. Is that like "Real Americans?" nt

[Arkana]

50. I can only imagine how we'd have reacted to Grover Cleveland.

[AllentownJake]

54. First term or second

I think they all hated him than got a Sarah Palin and begged him to come back.

[Hippo_Tron]

61. I think a lot of DU would've been Republicans back then

[NJmaverick]

51. Thank you for the excellent historical perspective

It must have taken you some time to get all the facts together.

[tabasco]

58. The utopians act like Democrats operate in a vacuum.

That's stupid and counterproductive.

[AllentownJake]

59. Yep and these people would be complainers and told to stop rocking the boat

That they were utopians and to stop fucking complaining

[treestar]

69. Nobody says to stop fuckin' complaining and if they did, they can't stop it

anyway.

But those you pictured did not complain, they kept at it. If MLK acted like some of DU today, he'd be "disappointed" in the bills that were being worked on in 1964. They didn't go far enough. And that's what you'd have heard on DU had it existed in 1964.

[msallied]

71. If the DU mentality had prevailed during the Civil Rights Movement

We'd probably still be waiting for a "perfect" bill to surface in Congress after they killed all of the imperfect ones before it because they weren't perfect enough.

[TheKentuckian]

66. The OP is just a little perspective and context not a rebuke

I don't see how it could really be taken differently without one hoisting themselves onto a cross.

Some measure against their ideal and others grade on the curve. Both are reasonable approaches or at least understandable from either perspective. Well, make that should be now we have to have thousands of people that essentially agree snarking at each other in a battle of cheerleaders and whiners, aka myopic, thin-skinned, defensive, tittybaby, reflexive and projective assholery.

Shit does actually stink and people aren't going to pretend they smell honeysuckle BUT nobody is going to pop in and turn water into wine for us on the cheap wanting only to serve anytime soon either. You don't get to choose realties and no one can wipe away the past with the wave of their hand or reset the foundations of the earth.

[Enrique]

70. good for the critics of politicians

then and now.

[derby378]

74. And the Clinton health reform plan died a richly-deserved death

Why? Because there wasn't a public option in the plan. We'd all be forced to buy plans from the corporations. Nuh-uh. Didn't buy that line then, not buying it now.