Do you think you really know what is happening in Afghanistan?

[IndianaGreen]

Have you paid more attention to the British press, particularly recent reports of what the British military and diplomats have had to say about Afghanistan recently?

Have you bothered to find out what the Afghans are saying about NATO and the US?

Does it bother you that we are being asked to put our trust in the same military commander that played a leading role in the cover up of Pat Tillman's death?

I strongly urge all of you to read the speeches and writings of Malalai Joya, a champion of women's rights in Afghanistan.

Here is one of her recent speeches:

Eight years ago, the U.S. and its allies invaded Afghanistan under the banner of women's rights. Today, the situation for women--half of the population of the country--is hell in most of the provinces. Killing a woman is as easy as killing a horse. A few days before I come here, in Sar-e Pol province in the north of Afghanistan, a 5-year-old girl was kidnapped and killed. The rape of women and kidnapping and acid attacks--all of this violence is increasing rapidly, even at historical levels. And all of these crimes are happening in the name of democracy, women's rights and human rights.

I'm saying that as long as these warlords are in power along with these occupation forces, there is no hope to make positive changes in the lives of the men and women of my country.

It's not only women who are suffering. If I talked only about conditions for women, it would be all morning, but I wouldn't even be finished. All of this shocking news that the media never even gives to the people around the world. Women don't even have a human life.

But today, women and men don't have liberation. Millions of Afghans suffer from injustice, insecurity, corruption, joblessness, etc. Your government says that it sent troops there so that girls can go to school, but according to official figures from the government, more than 600 schools have been closed. When the girls go to school, they throw acid on their faces.

I think education is important--very important in my country. I always say that it's the key to our emancipation. But security is more important than food and water. They keep the situation dangerous like this so they can stay longer in Afghanistan because of their strategy and policies.

To know more about the deep tragedy of Afghanistan, during these eight years, they changed my country to the capital of the center of drug trade.

http://socialistworker.org/2009/11/03/no-nation-can-liberate-another

For the benefit of those that suffer from a Pavlovian response to any stimulii having the word socialist in it:

The big lie of Afghanistan

My country hasn't been liberated: it's still under the warlords' control, and Nato occupation only reinforces their power

Malalai Joya
The Guardian, Saturday 25 July 2009

You must understand that the government headed by Hamid Karzai is full of warlords and extremists who are brothers in creed of the Taliban. Many of these men committed terrible crimes against the Afghan people during the civil war of the 1990s.

For expressing my views I have been expelled from my seat in parliament, and I have survived numerous assassination attempts. The fact that I was kicked out of office while brutal warlords enjoyed immunity from prosecution for their crimes should tell you all you need to know about the "democracy" backed by Nato troops.

In the constitution it forbids those guilty of war crimes from running for high office. Yet Karzai has named two notorious warlords, Fahim and Khalili, as his running mates for the upcoming presidential election. Under the shadow of warlordism, corruption and occupation, this vote will have no legitimacy, and once again it seems the real choice will be made behind closed doors in the White House. As we say in Afghanistan, "the same donkey with a new saddle".

So far, Obama has pursued the same policy as Bush in Afghanistan. Sending more troops and expanding the war into Pakistan will only add fuel to the fire. Like many other Afghans, I risked my life during the dark years of Taliban rule to teach at underground schools for girls. Today the situation of women is as bad as ever. Victims of abuse and rape find no justice because the judiciary is dominated by fundamentalists. A growing number of women, seeing no way out of the suffering in their lives, have taken to suicide by self-immolation.

This week, US vice-president Joe Biden asserted that "more loss of life (is) inevitable" in Afghanistan, and that the ongoing occupation is in the "national interests" of both the US and the UK.

I have a different message to the people of Britain. I don't believe it is in your interests to see more young people sent off to war, and to have more of your taxpayers' money going to fund an occupation that keeps a gang of corrupt warlords and drug lords in power in Kabul.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/25/afghanistan-occupation-taliban-warlords

[G_j]

1. I tried to rec this

guess I got canceled out.


excellent post, deserves to be in the greatest!

[chill_wind]

2. K & R.

[sandnsea]

3. And then there's Masooda Jalal and Shinkai Karokahail

Do you think reading only media that is as biased as the "socialist worker" is going to tell you everything that is happening in Afghanistan?

http://www.obama-mamas.com/blog/?p=437'

"That position doesn’t represent all Afghan women however, a point that was made clear to Ms. Benjamin by Masooda Jalal, former Afghan minister of women and the only woman to run for President in 2004.� She has been advocating for Afghan women since 2001 when she was one of the few at the Loya Jirga, but still shut out, “we were in the big tent during the Loya Jirga, but most of the deals where made in the small tents, behind the curtains, where women where not allowed to go.”

At recent gatherings sponsored by Code Pink in Afghanistan, Ms. Jalal told Ms. Benjamin that troops and development funds are both needed for reconstruction.� “It is good for Afghanistan to have more troops - more troops committed with the aim of building peace and against war, terrorism, and security - along with other resources,” she answered. “Coming together they will help with better reconstruction.”

and

"Shinkai Karokhail, an Afghan member of Parliament and woman activist, is one of them and�expressed her view�that “In the current situation of terrorism, we cannot say troops should be withdrawn,” �“International troop presence here is a guarantee for my safety.”

[IndianaGreen]

8. that was a speech by Malalai Joya. Her views are similar to RAWA's

Afghan Women Resist Occupation and Fundamentalism - RAWA Tour USA 2009

A nation-wide tour of Zoya, a member of RAWA in October 2009, exactly 8 years after the start of the US war.

Afghan Women's Mission is pleased to announce a nation-wide tour of Zoya, a member of RAWA in October 2009, exactly 8 years after the start of the US war. Zoya will share the message of RAWA in New York, Washington DC, Boston, Iowa, Los Angeles, Berkeley, and San Francisco.

http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2009/10/03/afghan-women-resist-occupation-and-fundamentalism-rawa-tour-usa-2009.html

http://www.rawa.org/index.php

[sandnsea]

12. And? So?? She's not the only woman in Afghanistan

And the socialist worker doesn't report objectively any more than Fox News does. Even Medea Benjamin had to admit Afghanistan is more complicated than she thought before going over there. You're anti-war. Fine. "No" is not a solution to Afghanistan and Pakistan's problems.

[IndianaGreen]

13. Don't be so purposely dense! Here is she on NPR

Malalai Joya: 'A Woman Among Warlords'

After the tragic day of September 11, 2001, many in Afghanistan thought that, with the ensuing overthrow of the Taliban, they might finally see some light, some justice and progress. But it was not to be. The Afghan people have been betrayed once again by those who are claiming to help them. More than seven years after the U.S. invasion, we are still faced with foreign occupation and a U.S.-backed government filled with warlords who are just like the Taliban. Instead of putting these ruthless murderers on trial for war crimes, the United States and its allies placed them in positions of power, where they continue to terrorize ordinary Afghans.

You may be shocked to hear this, because the truth about Afghanistan has been hidden behind a smoke screen of words and images carefully crafted by the United States and its NATO allies and repeated without question by the Western media.

You may have been led to believe that once the Taliban was driven from power, justice returned to my country. Afghan women like me, voting and running for office, have been held up as proof that the U.S. military has brought democracy and women's rights to Afghanistan.

But it is all a lie, dust in the eyes of the world.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114207995

[IndianaGreen]

15. Malalai Joya: The woman who will not be silenced

Since I am detecting some chauvinism on your part, try this for size:

Malalai Joya: The woman who will not be silenced

Enraged by Taliban oppression Malalai Joya became a women’s rights activist, and after the US-led invasion, took on the new regime as an MP. But speaking out has come at a cost. She tells Johann Hari why death threats won’t stop her exposing ugly truths about Afghanistan.

Tuesday, 28 July 2009

I am not sure how many more days I will be alive," Malalai Joya says quietly.

The warlords who make up the new "democratic" government in Afghanistan have been sending bullets and bombs to kill this tiny 30-year-old from the refugee camps for years – and they seem to be getting closer with every attempt. Her enemies call her a "dead woman walking". "But I don't fear death, I fear remaining silent in the face of injustice," she says plainly. "I am young and I want to live. But I say to those who would eliminate my voice: 'I am ready, wherever and whenever you might strike. You can cut down the flower, but nothing can stop the coming of the spring.'"

The story of Malalai Joya turns everything we have been told about Afghanistan inside out. In the official rhetoric, she is what we have been fighting for. Here is a young Afghan woman who set up a secret underground school for girls under the Taliban and – when they were toppled – cast off the burka, ran for parliament, and took on the religious fundamentalists.

But she says: "Dust has been thrown into the eyes of the world by your governments. You have not been told the truth. The situation now is as catastrophic as it was under the Taliban for women. Your governments have replaced the fundamentalist rule of the Taliban with another fundamentalist regime of warlords. what your soldiers are dying for." Instead of being liberated, she is on the brink of being killed.

The story of Joya is the story of another Afghanistan – the one behind the burka, and behind the propaganda.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/malalai-joya-the-woman-who-will-not-be-silenced-1763127.html

[sandnsea]

17. Masooda Jalal - Afghan minister of women

and the only woman to run for President in 2004.

Chauvinism? What the fuck are you talking about??

Joya IS NOT the only woman in Afghanistan and she most certainly IS NOT the only women speaking up for women.

So again - who is the one who doesn't know what is going on in Afghanistan because of what he reads.

[IndianaGreen]

18. She is not part of Karzai's government

She has attacked Karzai's record on women rights.

[sandnsea]

20. Everybody is attacking Karzai's record

It needs to be attacked. What's that got to do with anything?

Question - do you read one person's opinion and think you've gotten all the information you need to get on a topic?

Women in Afghanistan have a variety of opinions on what needs to happen there. They all agree that their rights are in jeopardy, no question about that.

[IndianaGreen]

22. Women have no rights in Afghanistan today! Rape is rampant!

Your saying that their rights are in jeopardy is ludicrous on its face for it assumes they have rights to begin with.

The only time women had rights, and were free from sharia, was under the Marxist government. A government the US toppled with the help of Osama bin Laden and the religious rabble that became the Taliban.

[sandnsea]

25. You're picking a fight where one doesn't exist

I've been advocating for Afghanistan women for years. I don't know what your issue is. There are many, many women in Afghanistan who are fighting for women's rights. I didn't just jump on this bandwagon an hour ago.

[dionysus]

46. sandnsea is one-a them damn women hatin... women?

:rofl:
lordy

[Clio the Leo]

4. Nope ....... do you?

Which may sound snarky .... and it may be just a little bit .... but if I am willing to concede that I dont know more than the experts .... the journalists who cover it every day, are you willing to concede that you dont know more about it than the President does?

This has always been my problem with the critics .... not that they're criticizing, but the fact that they base that criticism on information that they dont have. This is esp. the case with matters of national security. As he said, "you know, we hold those meetings down in the Situation Room for a reason....."

So unless you're really Papa Joe (and if you are, can I set on your lap? ;) ) ..... you have to admit that the President knows more about the matter at hand than any of us do. Therefore, while skepticim is healthy, full-on outrage seems a bit premature. Is that such an unreasonable thing to think?

And yes ..... I thought the same thing about Bush. It was not until he presented his case and the rationale he provided didn't wash (in my mind) .... coupled with the fact that he'd abandoned Afghanistan .... that he lost my support for the Iraq war.

And let's face it ..... compared to President Obama, he has the intelligence of a fruit fly .... you'll forgive me if I a little bit more trust in the current President than I do the last.

[Cha]

6. Thanks Clio.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Presidents have gotten us into wars in Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, and Iraq

and the only thing these Presidents really showed, was the vastness of their ignorance and hubris. All we got out of them was a lot of dead and wounded, and war crimes to boot.

Obama was an outsider from Illinois, but he chose to surround himself with the same Beltway geniuses that got us into the mess we find ourselves in.

[Clio the Leo]

11. We're just going to keep going around in circles....

.... you're against war at any cost (at least that's my take, I'm sorry if I mis-characterize your opinion) and, while I'd like to avoid it, I understand that we dont live in an idealistic world.

The jerk down the street is probably going to beat his wife up .... and the police will have to come hall him off to jail. I'd rather men and women not have to risk their lives working as police officers but I'd MUCH rather someone be there to stop the neighbor from beating up his wife.

Sure, I'd rather that American service men and women not go to Afghanistan, but I'd MUCH rather someone do something about atrocities like this ....



Sometimes American men and women have to go to another country and be the police .... sure, we can argue that, idealistically, we shouldn't do that and I think there's some merit to that argument. But we are a superpower .... we use up the world's resources as if they are our own .... I think that obligates us to help clean up some of the messes whether we make them our not (presuming we have the UN's backing in doing so.)

Allied troops ..... including American servicemen .... liberated the Nazi death camps. All of those men are regarded as heroes as well they should be .... no one questions that. Many Americans paid the ultimate sacrifice in order for that to happen.

WHERE do we draw the line between what qualifies something as an act of heroism vs. meddling in affairs that our not our own?

If you have a standard for that, some kind of chart or guideline, please show me.

[IndianaGreen]

14. Women are as oppressed under Karzai and the warlords as they were under the Taliban

Pathetic that you are resorting to the same propaganda techniques the Bush regime used.

[Clio the Leo]

16. Regardless of who's to blame.....

.... women are being abused because they are women .... and we're supposed to turn a blind eye to it?

And I dont care WHO I agree with ..... FDR and Truman didn't worry that they were agreeing with Stalin (who obviously had his own issues) .... during WWII. Did we say, "tough luck, the Nazis are WAY over there .... besides, we dont have the money for it anyway."

WHEN did being a good Democrat mean you can pick and choose which human rights are worth protecting and which ones aren't?

I'm more worried that the President doesn't seem to being much for Darfur than I am that he's doing too much with Afghanistan.

[Bluenorthwest]

62. Do you also call for war in Saudi Arabia?

China? Sudan?
Can we infer that you support an immediate universal draft to get the troops to clean up the world of all wrong doers? You seem to be calling for world wide mayhem and warfare. To be fought by others, of course. Of course.

[Garam_Masala]

102. please no war against China!

They have a massive build up of military going on for over a decade.
It will be a major catastrophe. The TM square massacre is simply an internal problem in China.

Only Afghanistan is different because the 911 terror attack command and control center was there.
We can't let that happen again.

It is good to see the president knows he can not let Afghanistan fall to Taliban control.

[fascisthunter]

70. yuh... our military is there for the people, because our government really cares

give me a break. It's because of a PIPELINE and not because of women's rights. Nice try though, really, but too transparent at this point.

[LooseWilly]

19. You do realize that your justification for staying in Afghanistan also obligates us to invade China?

"Sometimes American men and women have to go to another country and be the police .... sure, we can argue that, idealistically, we shouldn't do that and I think there's some merit to that argument. But we are a superpower .... we use up the world's resources as if they are our own .... I think that obligates us to help clean up some of the messes whether we make them our not (presuming we have the UN's backing in doing so.)"

Up until your caveat about the UN... that would obligate the US to invade China for it's human rights record. Come to think of it, I think that final caveat itself would obligate the US to invade Israel in order to bring to justice those behind the invasion of Lebanon in January. I think we'd be obligated to turn over 26 Americans to Italy for their role in the rendition of a cleric in Milan (http://islamicawakening.com/viewnews.php?newsID=8348&)... especially since we have an extradition treaty with Italy.

Kissinger... war criminal.

Cheney and Rumsfeld will probably be held as war criminals.

Human rights abuses happening in Zimbabwe... Myanmar... US prisons...

I really think you're going to need to dig deeper for a justification for sending more troops and/or for continuing the war in Afghanistan. If you want to enjoy the scenery of moral congruence, anyway.

I pointed out to you in the "imagine this" thread how little sensible reason I see for staying in Afghanistan... in terms of sheer US interests. There are theoretical human interests one could argue for staying... but I personally suspect that trying to pursue such unasked for idealism so far abroad is liable to bankrupt the US Empire just as surely as it bankrupted the Soviet Empire.

Come to think of it... for the good of the world... maybe that's an argument for upping the new deployment to 100k new soldiers... let's just go broke as an Empire and get it over with...

[Clio the Leo]

23. Key phrase.....

"Up until your caveat...."

I realize the complexity of what I said ..... and I realize the difficulty of demanding that China solve its human rights abuses when we owe them 80 gabillion dollars (suggesting that we get our finanical house in order so we HAVE that leverage is another matter for another thread) ..... but I'm not so entrenched in my idealism that I can simply ignore human rights abuses around the globe.

Should we have NOT liberated the Nazi death camps because we hadn't done anything to to stop Stalin's gulags? I just cant twist my logic to rationalize that.

And you know you wont get any argument about Cheney and Rumsfeld here. Want to join me in writing a letter to the White House? Got a stamp?

[LooseWilly]

27. And what about UN resolutions condemning Israel?

I notice you ignored that detail. And CIA agent extraditions to Italy. The example of the Nazi concentration camps seems a bit forced... as it wasn't until we went to war with Japan, after Pearl Harbor, and then decided to go to war with Germany to help out the UK (I suspect simply because Roosevelt disliked Hitler, for being a monster), that we eventually stumbled across the concentration camps, and closed them down (as did Stalin, ironically). The way you're phrasing it though, suggests that we went to war with Germany specifically in order to liberate the concentration camp victims. I am sure you realize that didn't even register as a reason to go to war with Germany at the time... but only after the fact.

And as for your agreement about Cheney and Rumsfeld... I'm not surprised by it, in fact I'm cheered a bit... but I can't help but wonder that the hypocrisy of the US position wouldn't make you pause before accepting Human Rights concerns as justification for government action in one case, while it is completely ignored as grounds for action in another case.

I'm not necessarily arguing against continued action in Afghanistan... in an effort to try to stabilize the power of the westernized middle class factions of the society there who have my every sympathy... but I can't help but wonder about the costs... and I can't help but dismiss an argument which is baldly hypocritical as justification.

I recently did a googling on the History of Afghanistan, and found a Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan I direct you to go and look at the section titled: Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (1978-1979) ... which details the communist government which took over in '78... which turned to the USSR for support & assistance in modernizing. In response, "As part of a Cold War strategy, in 1979 the United States government (under President Jimmy Carter and National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski) began to covertly fund and train anti-government Mujahideen forces through the Pakistani secret service known as Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), with the intention of provoking Soviet intervention, (according to Brzezinski)." ... which led to the Soviet invasion... which led to increased funding for the Mujaheddin... which led to the training of Osama bin Laden... the formation of al Qa'eda... and the ISI sponsoring the Taliban...

All in response to a communist government that was enacting all of the "reforms" that are currently being talked about in Washington as the endgame goals for Afghanistan. Take a few minutes to think about that... I'm gonna go do a couple of shots so I can stop thinking about it.

It's... the dirty feeling of being an American.

[Clio the Leo]

29. I'm not ignoring Israel.....

..... I'm not ignoring Darfur, I'm not ignoring anywhere.

You're missing my point.... I fail to see the merit in saying that since we cant solve ALL of the world's injustices, then we shouldn't try to improve any of them.

I dont understand why it has to be an all or nothing thing.

[LooseWilly]

61. And you're missing my point. If we can't solve ALL injustices, we need more than mere

... injustice, in any given case, to justify the spending of resources. Whether it be strategic benefits, enforcement of international law (Israel, I'm looking at you...)... or even a lottery system.

What I find disturbing is when we go gallavanting, as a country, off to "right some wrong", and the politicians would have us believe we're just doing it to fight injustice. My response is inevitably: "Bullshit." So.. looking around for the real justification for staying in Afghanistan, I come across this article about "pipelineistan" at Mother Jones: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/03/welcome-pipelineistan

One fun little clip:

Forget the mainstream media's obsession with al-Qaeda, Osama "dead or alive" bin Laden, the Taliban—neo, light or classic—or that "war on terror," whatever name it goes by. These are diversions compared to the high-stakes, hardcore geopolitical game that follows what flows along the pipelines of the planet.

Who said Pipelineistan couldn't be fun?

Now that article explains why the US considers staying in Afghanistan, but never considers twitching a muscle for Myanmar...


Of course... if you really believe that it's because of the injustice that we're there... and not some other hidden reason... ask yourself why the US doesn't set up a lottery system... geopolitical experts from a set of 23 universities around the country could get together, agree on a list of international injustices... and then we number them and use one of the nation's Lottery Ball devices... we could televise it... Which Global Injustice Will the US Marines Right Next??... We could even issue the marines involved with this special squad white helmets, and maybe a little fringe... so they could look like 50s Western Heroes, as they ride over the horizon in their MRAP Humvees...

Think of the circus that could be built up around it... the Feds could force, via the FCC, all the networks to air it... and the Feds could sell the commercial blocks themselves... and use the proceeds to help pay for the project.

I'm sure there's a team working on developing that or some other means of implementing a program for fighting global injustice even as we speak... :sarcasm:

[Duncan]

83. damn - you make sense.

Keep it up please.

[knightinwhitesatin]

30. I want that stopped as much as the next person

However besides Afghanistan things like that or worse things take place in

Iran
Pakistan
Yemen
Sudan
Somalia
North Korea........

I can go on, the point is yes atrocities happen in war and even not in war. Why are you so hell bent on sending 30,000 more people like me and my friends to intervene in internal affairs in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda is gone, mission accomplished we win. Now we are left fighting the Taliban, who are scum, but who are the people of the country. NOW we are engaged in a civil war in a foreign land and we are taking sides. The Tajiks, Hazara and Uzbeks are hardly better than the Pashtun. It's a shitty world. Again I never cease to be amazed at the armchair warriors who want to put my ass on the line to fight the indigenous population of a country. So what if the Taliban are scum, tje world is full of scum shall we take them all on?

[QC]

33. For some people here, it's not about sending people like you to get killed.

Everything is all about the greater glory of a politician they have made into some weird combination of fantasy boyfriend and plaster saint.

It's sickening, and it's what this place has become.

[Martin Eden]

68. WHERE do we draw the line between ... an act of heroism vs. meddling?

It's not easy to draw clear easy-to-read lines (it never is) but when the war is based on lies and ulterior motives having to do with the wealth and/or power of those telling the lies, it is not an act of heroism.

And even if there are no ulterior motives it is not necessarily an act of heroism. It can be an act of stupidity based on ignorance.

[tomp]

32. knowing more and doing the right thing do not necessarily correlate.

one can drown in a sea of facts. at some point judgment is required. i categorically do not trust the judgment of the president no matter how many facts he has at his disposal. on the other hand, perhaps he would like to share all his facts with us to allow us to judge for ourselves if he is making the right decisions. but no, that's all top secret stuff to be left to our betters.

we should never have invaded afghanistan because we never fully investigated the 9/11 attacks and have not to this day. this basic fact should have much more weight in the afghanistan argument than it does.

[IndianaGreen]

34. Here is an example of Beltway wisdom... and bipartisan wisdom at that!

Bush and Gephardt at the Rose Garden, October 2, 2002, upon passage of the bipartisan Iraq War Resolution.



The 2-party system failed the American people on Iraq, and it is failing the American people on Afghanistan!

Our troops and their families are the ones bearing the brunt of all of this bipartisan wisdom!

[spiritual_gunfighter]

49. You supported the Iraq war? n/t

[IndianaGreen]

50. 'that he (Bush) lost my support for the Iraq war.'

Looks quite clear that the poster supported our invasion of Iraq.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

55. Just keep in mind

These are the people we are dealing with when they malign your thoughtful and dead spot on post.

[Martin Eden]

52. Good Post

The situation in Afghanistan is very complicated really messed up. I don't claim to fully understand it it, but I don't think abandoning the country to the Taliban is in the best interests of Afghan women.

On the other hand, unless there is a realistic chance within the next few years to produce an Afghanistan united under a stable government with human rights, let's stop killing people now and get the hell out.

[dflprincess]

86. The president has said that the U.S. is willing to "work with"

(I think that means "pay off") the Taliban. He did say they'd have to stop working with Al Queda, but he said nothing about them having to change their tune about women.

Let's not pretend that Obama's escalation of the conflict in Afghanistan has anything to do with protecting the rights of women in Afghanistan.

[Martin Eden]

99. I guess that depends which "Taliban" we're talking about

The Taliban leaders -- the diehard committed jihadists -- cannot be bought off or "worked with." They will continue their efforts to regain control of Kabul and their rule of Afghanistan. However, many of the foot soldiers are essentially ordinary Afghans who joined the Taliban as their best option for survival. IF they find an opportunity for security and employment under the umbrella of the central government we have been fighting to expand, then many of those Taliban will no longer be fighting against us.

Of course, that's a mighty big IF. I am not at all confident of success, especially because the government in Kabul is a dysfunctional mix of corruption and warlords. But let's at least be clear about the central nature of the conflict in Afghanistan -- it is a battle to determine whether the Taliban or the US-backed government in Kabul eventually controls most or all of the country.

The first task is to defeat the Taliban insurgency. Women's rights are a secondary consideration at this point, but their lives will certainly be impacted by the outcome. IF the US can somehow succeed in the primary mission, part of that success will have had to be an improvement in the central government. In that scenario, I think Afgan women will be better off than under Taliban rule.

[IndianaGreen]

106. Taliban are Wahhabis. There are no moderates among them!

[Martin Eden]

107. All black & white -- no shades of grey, eh?

And a cartoon for an argument?

We're talking about real people here. Is it your assertion that every foot soldier joined the Taliban because they were committed jihadists and never because it was their best among bad options (sometimes between life and death)?

[green917]

71. the president may have better intel but...

He may have better Intel but the simple reality is that President Obama has never served in a forward area and all the Intel in the world isn't worth time walking a patrol or working at Bagram air base (as I did) . As you say, Afghanistan is a complex & difficult quandary but I would, if I may be so bold, suggest you study the history of military engagement in Afghanistan & look for a pattern. By all accounts, there are no more than 200 members of al qaeda in Afghanistan. As Glen Greenwald so eloquently put it, "is it really worth it catch 100 bad guys?"

More troops is not the answer! 40% of the Afghan population is unemployed and the taliban offer a way to eat while they watch us give millions of dollars to foreign (mostly American) companies to do infrastructure projects that either don't get finished or are so shoddy that they are unusable. Regardless of how badly you want to support President Obama, bad policy is still bad policy & this further escalation (the 3rd that Pres. Obama has undertaken) of the war will bring us nothing but higher casualties & greater enmity from the Afghan people.

[bertman]

97. Clip the Leo, I suggest you do some reading about just HOW our Presidents get the info

upon which their decisions are made. For starters try "JFK and the Unspeakable; Why He Died and Why It Matters" by Jim Douglass. Sneak Preview: you will be treated to a heavy dose of how the CIA controls our foreign policy AND the decisions that Presidents make.

It's not about intelligence at all. It's about wielding power. And for President Obama it's for staying alive. Even if he thought this was the most fucked up situation on the planet and that we should pull our troops out tomorrow, he could never say that in public. If he did, he would be "replaced".

[Hell Hath No Fury]

104. Wow. You are channelling Britney Spears there you know.

"...you have to admit that the President knows more about the matter at hand than any of us do."

:D

Good lord, that is just nuts.

[rwheeler31]

5. oil

[IndianaGreen]

10. Let’s rise against the war crimes of US and its fundamentalist lackeys!

This is for the benefit of the "we are prowar now because the Prez is a Democrat" DUers.

Let’s rise against the war crimes of US and its fundamentalist lackeys!

RAWA Statement on Massacre of over 150 civilians in Bala Baluk of Farah Province by the U.S.



As the US occupiers continue killing our innocent and sorrowed people without regret, this time they committed yet another horrible crime in Bala Baluk village of Farah Province. On 5th May 2009, the US airstrikes targeted people’s homes, killing more than 150, mostly women and children. This is another war crime but Pentagon shamelessly includes Taliban as the perpetrators too and announces the civilian deaths being only 12!

The so-called ‘new’ strategy of Obama’s administration and the surge of troops in Afghanistan have already dragged our ill-fated people in the danger zone and his 100-day old government proved itself as much more war-mongering than Bush and his only gifts to our people is hiking killings and ever-horrifying oppression. This administration is bombarding our country and tearing our women and children into pieces and from the other side, is lending a friendly hand towards the terrorist Gulbuddinis and Taliban -- the dirty, bloody enemies of our people-- and holding secret negotiations and talks with such brutal groups.

While our grieved people are burying the torn bodies of their loved ones in mass graves; the traitor lackey Said Tayeb Jawad, in his comfort in the USA, tries to dim the war crimes of his masters and about the killings of civilians, shamelessly salts people’s wounds saying, “this is a price we have to pay if we want security and stability in Afghanistan, the region and the world.”!

If his or other ignoble spies like him would lose their children and dear ones like the people of Bala Baluk, would they still become so stone-hearted and remain silent in the face of US/NATO war crimes in Afghanistan?

The only way our people can escape the occupant forces and their obedient servants is to rise against them under the slogans of: “Neither the occupiers! Nor the bestial Taliban and the criminal Northern Alliance; long live a free and democratic Afghanistan!”

http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2009/05/07/lets-rise-against-the-war-crimes-of-us-and-its-fundamentalist-lackeys.html

[David Zephyr]

90. +1

.

[boppers]

9. He pulled the trigger on Tillman?

Oh, wait, not only was he not involved in the death, or the flubbed "early reports", or the later accurate reports, or the countless "coverup" accusations, the only link is that Tillman was working under him, in a massive organization.

As far as Ideologues screwing up Afghanistan, she's right, Democracy cannot come at the barrel of a gun, and it's been getting screwed up there since 1978 when socialists, communists, and capitalists (In that order, for the last 30 years) all decided that pumping guns into the state was the solution. So, what we have now is a state where ideology comes at the barrel of a gun, aka "Warlordism".

So, how does one reform a warlord state, when socialists, communists, and capitalists have all failed?

[IndianaGreen]

21. Robert Fisk: 'Nobody supports the Taliban, but people hate the government'

Robert Fisk was the first correspondent in Kabul, reporting on US bombing of Al-Jazeera. He also reported about entire villages destroyed by US bombing. Here ia an article he wrote back in 2008 as he left Afghanistan. One thing should be clear to all us: no American Messiah can change the FUBAR that is Afghanistan!

Robert Fisk: 'Nobody supports the Taliban, but people hate the government'

As he leaves Afghanistan, our correspondent reflects on a failed state cursed by brutal fundamentalism and rampant corruption

Thursday, 27 November 2008

The collapse of Afghanistan is closer than the world believes. Kandahar is in Taliban hands – all but a square mile at the centre of the city – and the first Taliban checkpoints are scarcely 15 miles from Kabul. Hamid Karzai's deeply corrupted government is almost as powerless as the Iraqi cabinet in Baghdad's "Green Zone"; lorry drivers in the country now carry business permits issued by the Taliban which operate their own courts in remote areas of the country.

The Red Cross has already warned that humanitarian operations are being drastically curtailed in ever larger areas of Afghanistan; more than 4,000 people, at least a third of them civilians, have been killed in the past 11 months, along with scores of Nato troops and about 30 aid workers. Both the Taliban and Mr Karzai's government are executing their prisoners in ever greater numbers. The Afghan authorities hanged five men this month for murder, kidnap or rape – one prisoner, a distant relative of Mr Karzai, predictably had his sentence commuted – and more than 100 others are now on Kabul's death row.

This is not the democratic, peaceful, resurgent, "gender-sensitive" Afghanistan that the world promised to create after the overthrow of the Taliban in 2001. Outside the capital and the far north of the country, almost every woman wears the all-enshrouding burkha, while fighters are now joining the Taliban's ranks from Kashmir, Uzbekistan, Chechnya and even Turkey. More than 300 Turkish fighters are now believed to be in Afghanistan, many of them holding European passports.

"Nobody I know wants to see the Taliban back in power," a Kabul business executive says – anonymity is now as much demanded as it was before 2001 – "but people hate the government and the parliament which doesn't care about their security. The government is useless. With so many internally displaced refugees pouring into Kabul from the countryside, there's mass unemployment – but of course, there are no statistics.

"The 'open market' led many of us into financial disaster. Afghanistan is just a battlefield of ideology, opium and political corruption. Now you've got all these commercial outfits receiving contracts from people like USAID. First they skim off 30 to 50 per cent for their own profits – then they contract out and sub-contract to other companies and there's only 10 per cent of the original amount left for the Afghans themselves."

Afghans working for charitable organisations and for the UN are telling their employers that they are coming under increasing pressure to give information to the Taliban and provide them with safe houses. In the countryside, farmers live in fear of both sides in the war. A very senior NGO official in Kabul – again, anonymity was requested – says both the Taliban and the police regularly threaten villagers. "A Taliban group will arrive at a village headman's door at night – maybe 15 or 16 of them – and say they need food and shelter. And the headman tells the villagers to give them food and let them stay at the mosque. Then the police or army arrive in the day and accuse the villagers of colluding with the Taliban, detain innocent men and threaten to withhold humanitarian aid. Then there's the danger the village will be air-raided by the Americans."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-nobody-supports-the-taliban-but-people-hate-the-government-1036905.html

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. Sounds like what used to happen in Central America, in Vietnam...

When will we ever learn?

[ShortnFiery]

24. Excellent thread posts. I'd only add my recommendation to ...

check out the following site: http://rethinkafghanistan.com/videos.php

[Tejas]

26. Pure absolute ignorance OP

Try reading a few Pashtun message boards instead of drivel on some BS Socialist website. It'll open your eyes to exactly how much MALE Afgan citizens DO want to promote women's right in their country.

I've seen some incredibly stupid crap posted here on DU but this rates in the top 10.

[inna]

101. pure projection on your part.

[vaberella]

28. Unless you're there on the ground you don't know what's going on.

It's the same reason why you and most other's don't know exactly what Obama is going to say on Tuesday but running on the words of mediawhores to define your feeling. Ugh....

[spiritual_gunfighter]

51. Malalai Joya is a mediawhore?

You should study up before you post inane bullshit.

[Bluenorthwest]

66. Ms Joya is among other things, Afghani. Are you?

Many call her 'the bravest woman in Afghanistan'. You call her a whore.

[QC]

96. There has been some truly sociopathic stuff posted these past couple of days.

Sick stuff.

[inna]

108. a person represented by the image in your sig is a mediawhore.

fyi.

:shrug:

[LWolf]

31. K & R nt

[ClarkUSA]

35. The only person around Pres. Obama who we know backs Gen. McChystal's troop idea 100% is Hillary.

Once a warmonger in the Senate, always a war hawk in the Cabinet, I guess. :shrug:

Pres. Obama resisted making a decision when it was widely expected weeks ago by demanding on exit plans from all
of his Pentagon chiefs. His VP also doesn't "trust" Gen. McChrystal's recommendation, either, because his recommendations
are opposed to Hillary's.

Lastly, cherrypicking one Afghan activist's opinion to represent Afghanistan on the war effort is like trusting Cindy Sheehan
to speak for all Americans. I don't think so!

[IndianaGreen]

36. RAWA also wants US and NATO out of Afghanistan

I remind you that RAWA was at the forefront of women's rights in Afghanistan at the same the US was making pipeline deals with the Taliban.

[ClarkUSA]

37. So what? Why does one group deserve the right to decide for the entire country/region?

I wouldn't "trust" NARAL or NOW to speak for me with regard to making C.I.C. decisions. See reply #26 also.

[IndianaGreen]

38. What gave the US the right to decide for the entire country of Afghanistan?

White Man's burden?

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Rudyard Kipling
The White Man's Burden, 1899

[ClarkUSA]

39. That's not what's happening. The Af-Pak governments want U.S. and NATO involvement.

And on our side, it's a national security decision that only the C.C makes, not Gen. McChrystal. Anyone who paid attention
to Candidate Obama last year shouldn't act surprised now.

:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

40. Are you speaking of the illegitimate Karzai regime?

Karzai is as legitimate as Iran's Ahmadinejad. They both stole the elections that kept them in power. Unlike Karzai, Ahmadinejad has significant support in rural areas. Karzai barely controls Kabul!

The people of Pakistan don't want us there either. There is rising anger in both Afghanistan and Pakistan about the civilian casualties caused by Predator strikes. We are never going to win the "hearts and minds" by remaining in that region.

Does the name Ngo Dinh Diem ring a bell?

[ClarkUSA]

41. And Pakistan's PM. Like it or not, Karzai won the runoff election so he's legitimate now.

His opponent turned coward and refused to run, just as Iran's opposition leaders decided to publicly fade
away. In reality, the U.S. deals with the hand we're dealt. If RAWA wants the power to make decisions for
the country, then their leader might want to run against Karzai in the future.

<<The people of Pakistan don't want us there either.>>

I'm sure the people who belong to the Taliban and Al-Qaida don't. You do know that there has been lots of
bloody fighting between Taliban and Al-Qaida forces against Pakistani gov't. forces that has caused much
death and suffering to innocent villagers, right? Because of it, public opinion in Pakistan has swung against
the Taliban and Al Qaida.

<<We are never going to win the "hearts and minds" by remaining in that region.>>

Quoting BushCo doesn't increase your credibility.

That's not Pres. Obama's mission plan. That's why he demanded exit plans upfront weeks ago instead of agreeing
to Gen. McChrystal's deliberately leaked/Hillary approved troop surge plan.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

53. Your rhetoric falls short of reality. Karzai's top opponent decided not to run again.

I was as surprised as Senator Kerry and the WH must have been, considering all the diplomatic effort that was put
into convincing a recalcitrant Karzai to agree to a runoff. I suspect he was bribed big-time.

<<If you want to follow Obama as he goose steps into the inevitable Afghan quagmire, go right ahead, but don't
ask our troops and their families to risk so much for such a foolish and reckless endeavour.>>

That's your opinion. I doubt that the majority of "troops and their families" share it. I know I don't.

[IndianaGreen]

58. Abdullah Abdullah dropped out because there were no guarantees of a fair election

I will point out that Abdullah Abdullah is no saint either!

[ClarkUSA]

60. Uh huh. I rather suspect his surprise decision came after he got a bribe he couldn't refuse.

<<I will point out that Abdullah Abdullah is no saint either!>>

We finally agree on something. :hi:

And that's exactly why I don't buy his "reason" for dropping out especially since he ran the first time when
global expectations were rife that it would not be"a fair election".

[mcablue]

77. Or maybe he withdrew because he thought a huge fraud would happen again

Unless you trust the election board, which is composed by sympathizers of Hamid Karzai.

[IndianaGreen]

94. Karzai won the one-candidate runoff election like Kim Jong Il won his in North Korea

He is an illegitimate ruler, just as Iran's Ahmadinejad. They both stole elections, and they both rely on goons to remain in power.

[tekisui]

72. Pakistan wants our drones and our $, but not more troops.

[zoff]

42. War is a cost-benefit proposition.

The Soviets left Afghanistan when the two curves finally intersected. Whatever the reason for the US and the UK and NATO to be in Afghanistan, it seems that the curves will not meet any time soon. The costs to this war include all war material, political bribes, foreign aid (oh wait I already mentioned bribes), etc. Question is, how much does human life and suffering figure into the equation?

[treestar]

43. If you're so against this war, organize a march against it

Just as you should have been doing under the Bush Administration. Did that ever happen? I recall Iraq protests but not Afghanistan.

How is the POTUS, who was elected saying he would finish this war, supposed to know that anyone is against that, let alone a majority?

[IndianaGreen]

45. Been there, done that, and will do it again!

Even went to South Bend when Bush went there!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. There WERE protests against the war in Afghanistan

But the MSM were so caught up in 9/11-revenge madness that they received no coverage.

[treestar]

63. A new President should warrant new protests

Where are these marches? Are they just not getting covered?

DUers often post photos of their marches.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

54. Where the hell have you been for 8 years?

WE DID PROTEST THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN!!!

[treestar]

64. In late 2001?

Why not do it again, with a new President who might be at least a bit softer to to receive the message than blivet was.

[ClarkUSA]

57. Funny how there wasn't a peep of Outrage last year when he was campaigning on this issue.

Ditto for much of this year. Now, all of a sudden, it's Another Obama Outrage. :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

59. You seem to forget that our entire focus was in defeating McCain/Palin

Apparently you think we should have sat at home on election day on account of Afghanistan. Those of us that have kept up with events in Southwest Asia knew that Obama's rhetoric on Afghanistan had been overrun by facts on the ground. The war was already lost by the time Obama was sworn in!

[treestar]

65. Not a bit!

Even last week there wasn't anything, we were busy trashing Obama because of the Stupak Amendment.

[winyanstaz]

78. Just so you know..I was against his stand on more and bigger wars then...

and I am now against these wars still.
I voted for him because the only alternative was even worse.
That doesnt mean I don't like a lot of his policies because I do.
It doesn't mean I like everything he is doing either..because I don't.
It does mean that I don't have to accept a president doing anything other than WHAT THE CITIZENS WANT THEM TO DO either.
He ASKED us to make him do what we wanted...and when some of us try...the hatemongers come out of the closet and call names.
In a free nation we must ALL be able to have our say.
We are free to make up our own minds after listening to all the arguements and opinions.
It also means we don't have to listen if we don't want to..but we shouldn't attack others for thinking differently.

[IndianaGreen]

56. UPDATE: Timescale of targets for Afghanistan in 2010

Here is soon to become former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown's description of targeted time lines for "success" in Afghanistan:

• Three months: Additional troops identified by Afghan government to send to Helmand province for training

• Six months: Clear plan for police training that includes dealing with corruption and working with local communities

• Nine months: 400 provincial and district governors appointed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8384193.stm

[polichick]

67. K&R

[valerief]

69. Countries never invade countries to help people. They invade to help themselves. nt

[sushi]

73. The world watched

the British fail in "fixing" Afghanistan, then the Russians failed, and now we're watching the Americans fail. Why don't all foreigners just leave, and spend a little of the hundreds of billions of war dollars on improving the lives of the millions of poor forgotten refugees.

[berni_mccoy]

74. The U.S. never invaded Afghanistan under any banner of human rights. She lost me there.

[winyanstaz]

79. Well actually I do remember a lot of retoric of how evil the Taliban were

and how much they abused women.

[IndianaGreen]

81. Did you forget Laura Bush's speech about women rights in Afghanistan?

I am here to voice my strong support for the courageous people of Afghanistan -- women and men who have suffered for years under the Taliban regime. I applaud the international community for its concern for women and families in Afghanistan around the world. And I applaud Chairman Karzai for his leadership during this important time.

Remarks for Mrs. Laura Bush
U. N. Commission on the Status of Women
International Women's Day
March 8, 2002

http://www.un.org/events/women/2002/bush.htm

[David Zephyr]

92. And her husband had rewarded the same Taliban $43 Million just nine months earlier.

What vile cynicism, huh?

[berni_mccoy]

100. Has nothing to do with why we went there or what we claimed we went there for.

[snake in the grass]

75. If the teabaggers needed any more proof...

...of Obama's citizenship, it would be this folly in Afghanistan. Like a true "American" Obama sincerely believes that we can finally solve this problem. After all, we have the most powerful military killing machine in the history of the human race. Of course we cannot lose.

It disgusts me to consider the lives lost and the money wasted to learn what Alexander the Great found out. Afghanistan is the "Graveyard of Empires". It's our war now. Are you feeling good?

[winyanstaz]

76. K & R,,,

I say..if we wish to know what is really going on in a country..talk to the women.

[Jakes Progress]

80. Reading the threads here it becomes obvious

that for several this is very easy.

When bush does it, it is bad. When Obama does it, it is good.

Not very nuanced or informed or intellectually honest, buy you have to admit that it is easier than thinking.

Oh, K&R, by the way. Being informed is a good thing.

[bvar22]

82. +1

K&R

Thanks for the sanity, IG.

[underpants]

84. +

[truedelphi]

85. I oppose the Afghani conflict for the following reason:

It is not possible to have peace brought about by war.

Peace can arrive only by wanting peace, desiring peace, and not participating in war.

I learned this lesson by the age of three, as my dad talked to me constantly about his experiences of war.

I can remember like it was yesterday, sitting on a swing in a park and he would be saying, "When I was your age, we had this great big war, and the Bankers and the other men told us it "Was the War to End all Wars."

"But I gues they were wrong, or else they lied, because by the time I was a young man, they sent me to kill my cousins in far off Germany."

And then he would shake his head sadly and be quiet for a good long time, while he gave my swing the pushes it required.

[inna]

87. IG, i love you!

no, seriously!


:)



:thumbsup:

[Mind_your_head]

88. Oh brother, what a crock of sh*t.

NOBODY gives a d*mn about what happens to women & children in afghanistan of Zimbabwe (or anywhere else for that matter). 'Almost' everyone has gone crazy/desperate and it's all about the money.

...for many here in the US it's not about the friendship, the laughter, the LIVING anymore....it's all about the Sex and Money. How repugnant we are/have become.

[autorank]

89. Out of the park Indianagreen k*r n/t

[David Zephyr]

91. K&R (The 111th)!

Thanks, IG!

[thegoodfight]

93. REFRESHING

To hear a unbiased viewpoint as to what whats REALLY going on in Afghanistan. The ones who support it these unjust wars are usually the ones who scream the loudest and have the flag too up there ass. Thankyou for this.

[LibDemAlways]

95. For the hell of it I visited job listings on several defense contractor

job websites today. Plenty of work in Afghanistan. And the listings are mostly several weeks old. The military-industrial complex has been well aware of this expansion for some time and is collectively licking its chops and preparing to further drain the treasury. No "national interest" there other than to waste taxpayer dollars. Uncle Sam has that down to a science.

[bertman]

98. Vietnam Redux. Keeping the military machine rolling and the corporations rich.

Too late to rec, but here's the kick.

[mojowork_n]

103. There's a great article in the current Harpers magazine.

Don't know what you read in the British press (links?) but I just read an outstanding bit of investigative news-gathering, yesterday, in this month's Harpers. It's all about going On Patrol with coalition auxiliary troops -- smuggling drugs. Those also happened to be the same people who were in charge of counting the votes in the recent presidential election, and in the that district, the mandate of support for Karzai approached Enver Hoxia (ex-Albanian Party Boss) levels. I'd supply a link but I'm pretty sure it won't be available online for a little while, since it's from the edition currently on news stands.

[katty]

105. i have heard her before, so courageous, as RAWA has been

outspoken for decades. Afghanistan has turned into the CIA-poppyseed karzai-taleban casino.