considering the innocent lives lost in Afghanistan....

[27inCali]

so far, I can't help but wonder about the lives that hang in the balance as of now.

I think we would get more innocent people there killed if we just pull out.

We have to accept a moral responsibility for those people.

It was our military who showed up and bombed them back into the stone age and in doing so empowered the more violent and regressive elements. So much of the Opium that strengthens the warlords is being manufactured for American use.

It was we American's who supported the war in the beginning and then for the most part forgot about it for pratically a decade allowing it to spiral out of control for years.

Hell, the very people we have been fighting there and who have been torturing the people of Afghanistan for decades were put there by our government.

I think we have an obligation to do our best to help them piece back together the country we shattered.

we have an obligation to stay around long enough to help them build a decent police force and military to protect the general populous from the very same radical assholes WE put in power in the first place. Till now, our government has half-assed the job and it shows/

Otherwise we are leaving those innocent folks to the wolves.

It doesn't mean we have to stay there for 10 more years, but it means we should give them at least a year or two of a competent strategy in which we are actually really trying to accomplish something

It would be irresponsible to our own security to leave a failed state where god knows what kind of madness would fester against us, but it is also morally reprehensible to spend decades destroying a country and then just walk away without a thought to the suffering that is bound to unfold.

[Clio the Leo]

1. I tend to agree.

Either way ... Tuesday night will be interesting.

[ShortnFiery]

2. No, more INNOCENT lives will be lost if we stay and/or escalate our combat troops.

Our military is trained to KILL - and win a war. We have NOT declared war. We are inserting ourselves in the middle of a CIVIL WAR and propping up a THUG named Karzai.

We are WRONG to stay and every day we have combat troops in those Muslim Nations, is a day we are increasingly LESS SAFE here in America as well as increased innocents who die from our "smart bombs."

Newsflash: The native peoples hate our presence and want our combat troops out of their SOVEREIGN nations.

The longer we stay, the more we are at risk for an attack on OUR soil. When that happens, the right wing "leader" will take the reigns and we will begin WWIII.

I'm only one soul who earned a Regular Army Commission into the Intelligence Field. I'm not cleared nor admittedly well versed in today's tactics, but I do know my Military Science and lessons learned from Vietnam.

Propping up corrupt governments embroiled in CIVIL WARS (Taliban vs. Karzai Government) will NOT end well.

If Obama truly cares about the safety of our Nation and the lives of our troops and Afghani civilians he will promptly announce a plan for complete withdraw of combat forces on Tuesday.

But he won't and it will play like this: DISASTER at home and abroad.

A one term Presidency for Obama will be the least of our worries as a nation.

===================

http://rethinkafghanistan.com/troop_full.php

Women never benefit from bombs and bullets.

When the U.S and its allies chose to put the Karzai regime in place, they conveniently overlooked the fact that it is overrun with the same patriarchal attitudes toward women as the Taliban. During my recent trip to Afghanistan, I saw the crushing poverty that Afghans must endure. A few brave women from RAWA and the Afghan Women’s Mission pointed out in a recent article that the military establishment claims that it must win the military victory first and then the U.S. will take care of humanitarian needs. But they have it backward. Improve living conditions and security will improve. Focus on security at the expense of humanitarian goals, and coalition forces will accomplish neither. The first step toward improving people’s lives is a negotiated settlement to end the war.

[FrenchieCat]

3. Do you have any posts you made against the Afghanistan War

prior to the Last Presidential Election? If so, could you link a couple?

I did a search, and I couldn't find any....
In fact, I can't really find any threads on Afghanistan at all.

[ShortnFiery]

4. I was against BOTH invasions from the beginning. NOT ONE POST you may uncover

will reflect any other perspective/belief.

You're welcome to try but it will be a monumental waste of your time. :hi:

Here's some input from other vets: http://rethinkafghanistan.com/blog/?p=949

[ShortnFiery]

6. p.s. Believe it or not THIS issue is not about Obama.

All of politics does not revolve around "support for President Obama."

Our invasion into Afghanistan was technically and morally justified, but I never supported us putting boots on the ground for an full blown invasion. If we would have went full bore and captured/killed Osama bin Laden, that would have been victory.

Now, even General Wonderful - one each, Petraeus admits on camera (see video below) that there are essentially no al Qaeda in Afghanistan. It was al Qaeda NOT the Taliban who attacked us on 9/11. We have no business, OBJECTIVE LEGAL JUSTIFICATION, to keep combat troops in either sovereign nation NOW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjE2wMWMJwI&feature=player_embedded

Again FC, my OBJECTIVE is to get President Obama to do what's morally right for the American People. I could care less about taking any loyalty oaths to him at this time.

[FrenchieCat]

10. Actually, here at DU, I am reading plenty of posts that are

stating that this is Obama's war, and that this is the end of the road,
blah, blah, blah....blah.

I think one of them was yours. :shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

13. Well, it is Obama's War, but not every damn thing has to rotate around his image.

Really, it's over the top to defend at every turn. I see violations on both sides with regard to blame.

However, what's most important is to do what is going to keep Americans and the rest of the World SAFER. Continuing to occupy two Muslim countries with combat troops will NOT end well. Again, Obama's personal/political welfare will be the least of America's and/or fellow democrats' worries.

[27inCali]

5. I don't think I posted on Afghanistan much at all 2 summers ago

maybe once or twice.

I'm a little troubled by how glibbly so many people assume the answer is just to walk.

[ShortnFiery]

8. *Sovereign Nations* precisely why. How would you like it if China OCCUPIED the USA?

Yes, we need to get the Hell out. We're in the middle of a Civil War propping up a corrupt (Karzai) government. No good can come of this ... we have NO moral high ground.

We are NOT doing this to help the people of America nor the people of Afghanistan. We are doing this to spend another TRILLION of our tax dollars on the privatized MIC, i.e., the War Profiteering USA Money Pit.

[FrenchieCat]

12. It is only the answer because they know it won't happen.....

it's called a catch-22.

[ShortnFiery]

14. Right, the ruling elite will NOT listen to either the American People nor the Worlds' Opinion.

And what will ensue will be DISASTER for America and the World. Every day we continue to occupy those nations we, as Americans, are LESS SAFE.

Welcome to WWIII - the road to Hell paved with "good intentions."

[spoony]

18. Again, all you can do is smear posters' motives

because you know damn well that Obama is wrong and these fucking wars are wrong. So now you're on a crusade to make people defend or justify themselves to you, when no one owes you any such thing, to warp this issue into yet another where you can claim Obama--and presumably you by extension--are victims of evil DUers and our hatred of all things Democratic.

[27inCali]

9. you wouldn't believe it

but I really agree with a lot of what you got to say even if I eventually take it in a slightly different direction.

I don't see our service men as heartless killing machines -all they need is good policy.

and a far as the native peoples hating us, I don't blame them, look what we've done to them for the past 30 sonmething years, that said, If I stopped a man from battering his wife, there's a good chance she would hate me for it, but I'd still do it.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Yes, Afghani women do hate us. They are nationalistic like all other native peoples.

I love the military. If it wasn't for my VEAP benefits, I would not have had the funding to complete my masters degree. However, the military is trained to WIN WARS - that is to KILL THE ENEMY not to NATION BUILD.

We are NOT helping the innocents by keeping and/or escalating our combat troops in Afghanistan. The Afghani women choose COUNTRY before our half-baked good intentions to bring them feminism.

I have no doubt that an increase in troop strength will end in disaster for not only the INNOCENTS within Afghanistan but also for Americans at home and abroad. This will NOT end well except for the power elite who are invested in the MIC. Everyone else will greatly suffer from the ushering in of WWIII.

As I mentioned earlier, the re-election of Obama will be the LEAST of our worries as a Nation.

[27inCali]

28. but here is the catch.....

are we sending more combat troops. is it certain that it's more COMBAT troops?

would it be a bad thing to send more troops if they we there to set up basic training camps and officer schools so that there is something of a coherent security force before we leave?

[knightinwhitesatin]

27. I have the neccessary clearance level and am in the Army now

short.....and you are right on the mark. I could not agree more.

And to the OP Afghanistan was in the Stone Age before we got there, all we did was bomb the bigger rocks into smaller rocks.

[27inCali]

30. I'm talking about pre-Reagan Afghanistan

if you are talking about just before Bush invaded, yeah, it was a shithole and mostly because of the shitty things our CIA did there during the 70s and 80s.

It may have been a long time ago, but America voted for the piece of shit politicians that instituted the piece of shit policies, we bear moral responsibility for that.

[knightinwhitesatin]

31. How did we bomb them back to the Stone age

before Reagan? :shrug:

[27inCali]

32. dude, you should know this

we funded the early encarnation of Al Qaeda in the 80s so they could fight a proxy war against the Russians in Afghanistan. Bin Laden was on CIA pay roll, recieved CIA training and a lot of hi-tech gear to use against the Russians. Had we not done that it is doubtful the Taliban would have ever come into power there and Al Qaeda would have never had the resources it needed to pull off 9/11.

if you think I'm BSing you go find some sources on it and check it out, it's all there.

the 3rd installment of the Rambo movie series was entirely about the proxy war in Afghanistan.

before then Afghanistan was a peaceful, west-friendly country that was surprisingly Liberal considering it's geographical location. Was it Eden? no. But I think there is no question we share equal blame with the Soviets for taking a civilized country and turning it into a hell hole.

This is a reoccuring pattern in the Middle East: CIA shows up, does some evil shit at the behest of corporate interests and the people resent us forever because of it. In fact, it's a pretty prevalent pattern in Latin America too, if not most of the 3rd world.

[knightinwhitesatin]

34. HOW

did we do this before Reagan?

[LooseWilly]

35. You do know that the "proxy war" was fought AFTER the Soviets invaded, right?

And... arguing that, had we not supplied the Mujaheddin, the Taliban would never have come to power... is very strange.

Without the Mujaheddin, the Soviets might not have gone broke enough to disband their "Union of Socialist Republics"... in which case... Afghanistan would be as developed as... Kazakhstan? Tajikistan?... and there wouldn't have been an al Qa'eda to attack the US... You do realize that this is an argument against policies further meddling in Afghanistan, right? ... If our earlier meddling led to the evolution of al Qa'eda... what is continued meddling going to spawn?

"and Al Qaeda would have never had the resources it needed to pull off 9/11" ?? What resources did they get from Afghanistan, aside from dirt upon which to build training camps?

You'll maybe recall that, after the bombing of the African embassies by al Qa'eda, Clinton bombed al Qa'eda facilities in Afghanistan and Sudan. If Afghanistan were still a Soviet Republic... and there had been no Taliban... but there were still an al Qa'eda... they could've trained just as easily in Sudan... or Somalia (yarr!)... or Qatar... or some other Emirate of the UAE... most of their funding comes from Saudi Arabia wahabi-ists... Remember, the bin Laden family is rich and well connected in Saudi Arabia...

So, I don't think the Taliban were somehow instrumental in providing any resources for 9/11. If anything... I think the Taliban were depending on al Qa'eda to help provide them with the funds they needed to prop up their own government (as they eradicated the poppy crops that the US propped up government instead lets bloom).

"This is a reoccuring pattern in the Middle East: CIA shows up, does some evil shit at the behest of corporate interests and the people resent us forever because of it. " ... uhh, sounds like you're actually talking about US activities in Iran. Would you care to take your argument one step further and argue that the US owes "reparations" to Iran? I'm sure they'd welcome a mere lifting of sanctions so that they could hire some contractors to help them build and train themselves to operate some refineries for their vast stocks of oil... so that they wouldn't be forced by US enforced sanctions to sell their crude oil on US controlled markets in order to then use the money to buy back processed gasoline... That might be too subtle a point for you to want to bother with though... and as Obama is pushing in the opposite direction (along with the Republicans...), well I imagine your arguments about "moral obligations" don't apply, when Obama isn't making them.

[annm4peace]

7. What do the intelligent and educated women of Afganistan have to say?

http://www.rawa.org/index.php


... "The US "War on terrorism" removed the Taliban regime in October 2001, but it has not removed religious fundamentalism which is the main cause of all our miseries. In fact, by reinstalling the warlords in power in Afghanistan, the US administration is replacing one fundamentalist regime with another. The US government and Mr.Karzai mostly rely on Northern Alliance criminal leaders who are as brutal and misogynist as the Taliban.

RAWA believes that freedom and democracy can’t be donated; it is the duty of the people of a country to fight and achieve these values. Under the US-supported government, the sworn enemies of human rights, democracy and secularism have gripped their claws over our country and attempt to restore their religious fascism on our people.

Whenever fundamentalists exist as a military and political force in our injured land, the problem of Afghanistan will not be solved. Today RAWA's mission for women's rights is far from over and we have to work hard for establishment of an independent, free, democratic and secular Afghanistan. We need the solidarity and support of all people around the world. "


Here are some stories from Nov 2009. AFter 8 years of Occupation and almost a Trillion Dollars>


November 25, 2009
Violence against Afghan, Pakistani women escalates in 2009 The FINANCIAL
Human rights activists have noted a large-scale growth in violence toward Afghan women, hundreds of whom are beaten, intimidated or sexually assaulted by men daily. According to the human rights activists' publication, the number of suicides among women has also grown... Over the last week, there were five such incidents.



November 22, 2009
Afghan Women burn themselves to flee abuse: Reuters
"I was seven-year-old when I got married. I did not have kids till the age of 12. I became a mother of four kids. My husband is a drug user. I asked him to stop using drugs many times, but he wouldn't stop. I warned him that I would have no choice but to kill myself if he didn't quit using drugs. He couldn't do it, and that is why I burned myself."




November 21, 2009
Violence against Afghan women on the rise in Baghlana: PAN
Department of Women's Affair in Baghlan province reports a worrisome increase in the scale of violence against women, including murder and suicide, this year as compared to the previous year. With heightened concern, the department says up to 74 cases of violence were recorded since the beginning of this year, against last year's 67 cases.



November 20, 2009
Afghanistan is world’s worst place to be born: U.N.Reuters
Eight years after a U.S.-led invasion ousted the Taliban from power in Afghanistan, the war-ravaged state is the most dangerous place in the world for a child to be born, the United Nations said on Thursday. It is especially dangerous for girls, the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) said in launching its annual flagship report, The State of the World’s Children


November 13, 2009
How the US army protects its trucks – by paying the Taliban: The Guardian
Welcome to the wartime contracting bazaar in Afghanistan. It is a virtual carnival of improbable characters and shady connections, with former CIA officials and ex–military officers joining hands with former Taliban and mujahideen to collect US government funds in the name of the war effort. In this grotesque carnival, the US military's contractors are forced to pay suspected insurgents to protect American supply routes. It is an accepted fact of the military logistics operation in Afghanistan that the US government funds the very forces American troops are fighting.


November 11, 2009 UNICEF: More than half of Afghan children suffer from malnutrition: Health News New Delhi - Eight years after the start of the international campaign to end Taliban rule in Afghanistan, more than half of all children under age five suffer from malnutrition, a UNICEF official told the German Press Agency dpa Wednesday. 'Nutrition is somewhat better (now), but not much,' said Daniel Toole, UNICEF's South Asia director, as the UN agency for children released a report tracking global progress in maternal and child nutrition.

[mike_c]

15. ah, the white man's burden-- a logical fallacy exceeded only by...

...the domino theory.

[Jester Messiah]

16. There is a right way and a wrong way to end a war.

You don't end it by leaving your allies twisting in the wind. The war has to be wound down, some sort of peace has to be achieved, else it will be a bloodbath. For all the sins we've already committed, let's not add betrayal on to the pile.

[ShortnFiery]

17. We don't have the control to "wind down" a civil war. Our "allies" will be happy to withdraw and

may do so SOONER than we would like. :(

[Jester Messiah]

19. Except for the allies who live in Afghanistan

They have nowhere to which they could withdraw. We can't just say "It's been fun, see ya!" and leave them to get slaughtered. Not only is it morally reprehensible, it would set (or continue) a bad precedent.

[avaistheone1]

21. What allies that live in Afghanistan are you speaking of.

[Jester Messiah]

24. The former "Northern Alliance" in general. [nt]

[IndianaGreen]

23. Allies such as Karzai's pal Rashid Dostum, the mass murderer?

If you only interest in Afghanistan is to keep the opium trade going, then I can see how you would ask our troops to shed their blood for the likes of Dostum.

[Jester Messiah]

25. Yes, obviously that is my intent. Dolt. [nt]

[avaistheone1]

20. It is going to either be a slow blood bath as we bomb the hell out of Afghanistan

for years to come or, it can be quick where there will be less bombing, death of Americans and Afghans as we withdraw now. It is for the Afghans to establish the peace not us.

I don't get how we can betray Afghanistan. It would be a betrayal to destroy their people and country as we have done in Iraq. Let's stop the madness and pull the fuck out and do it quickly.

[Whisp]

22. the destroying of the Buddhas of Bamyan

by the Taliban in 2001 was a major media event that ripped around the world.
That's pretty well all most everyday tv viewing people knew of Aghanistan back then - not that they were starving and were in dire need of help, but that they busted up some ancient artwork.

We should have been there for the people then but ofcourse the media that is owned by the likes of mega corps that also make big fire crackers wouldn't want that. But there's not much money in peace, is there? Must more tasty when bombs are involved.

I think it is very wrong to presume that people want help even if it means blowing up their families into pink mists to get it. wrong wrong wrong. How would we take it if some country or agency decided that the crazy evangelicals in the US were a threat to all of us and decided to send in preditor drones to destroy them, all of course for our sakes. Lots of collateral damage but this other entity decides that it really is worth it.

ridiuclous thought isn't it? why does the US mind assume they know what the fuck is best for everyone else?

[Life Long Dem]

26. I agree.

The government of Afghanistan is said to be corrupt as well.

People don't relate the corruption with the republican's here, is the same corruption in foreign wars. It's the same corrupt republican's that the President keeps cleaning up after, and not the same war that Bush had.

[WonderGrunion]

29. That's why I approve of Obama's request to find an endgame

to the Afghan conflict as part of any overall strategy.

[BeFree]

33. Well

Then you are going to be very disappointed.
Because none of your wishes will ever come true, but there will be thousands more innocents dead at the hands of our military.

Just like in Vietnam.

[zulchzulu]

36. They don't want us there... we need to get the hell out

There can be ways to help those in need if they let those people in. It's not as though they "need" us... they need to figure out their destiny on their own.

We have no right to "help them", aka tell them how we want them to be like us. That's what happens when an occupying force stays in a place where they are not welcome. We've been there almost 10 years and nothing good has happened.

Afghanistan is a corrupt narco-kleptocracy that have a majority of people who embrace 6th Century religious beliefs and consider us the Infidels.

Let them live their live and let's forget about trying to inflict our "goodness"...