In what Democratic system do People only have power during elections?

[Go2Peace]

This "meme" is continious on this site. I would like to know exactly what Democratic system that people are encouraging? Exactly when did Democracy end once the elections were finished?

I would argue that the Marketing of our new President, who actually I like, was a little, shall we say, disingenious? And a lot of people are upset that they are not getting what they thought they were getting in terms of a little more fundamental change. OK. So let's say it is truth that we should have done a better job of "reading between the lines". So tough luck just sit back and accept it???????

So this new idea of Democracy is that we get what we elect? Say indeed our perceptions were wrong (which I do not accept, we were "white lied" to) we cannot change our minds, we cannot make new demands, we cannot ask, or even demand that our representatives change directions or policies?

I don't think some folks understand exactly what they are saying. That is not DEMOCRACY!

I don't give a flip if the entire nation had a complete reversal of mind, if circumstances changed and the people decided they wanted different things of their leader, in a Democracy their Representatives DAMN WELL BETTER LISTEN! The PEOPLE are the POWER and the "Deciders" no matter if it is day 1 or day 1300, we are still a Democracy.

Please, stop what you are doing. Quit your attempts to try to convince me to "go along" and let go of my concerns. And most of all stop trying to "teach" my fellows and young Democrats that is the way Democracy works, because you are compromising it's principles.

We wanted to go back to a country that represents us, well, then stop getting in the way of your fellows expressing their rights ok?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

All of them.

There are no governments by rolling plebiscite that I know of. Even student councils and homeowners associations have elected officers with delegated authority of some sort.

All democracies I can think of are representative where the individual citizens do not have formal governmental authority, but have a say in selecting those who do. (Or which Party does.)

[DJ13]

8. Parliamentary governments at least allow votes of no confidence

which results in new elections when needed if a party or politician fails to take the electorate into account.

[Go2Peace]

40. Parlimentory governments also integrate 3rd parties better.

Actually i think Parliment is better than the two party model.

[Go2Peace]

9. No, you are describing a Banana Republic

We cannot change our elected officials (simply) midstream. But we sure as hell can ask them to change their policies and they sure as heck have a responsability to listen.

[AllentownJake]

14. Actually that isn't really what the people who founded this country intended

Everything in the system was a check and balance on power so no one person would get too much power and fuck with the other guys in power.

Most of our founders were rich people, half of which owned human beings as property, and didn't like having a King that could strip them of said property on a whim.

It was a better system than the one it replaced, but I think it could use some fine tuning 200 years later.

[Go2Peace]

33. I understand your point. But if we accept that definition of Democracy

we will have despots and kings for leaders. Because we live in an extremely powerful age of mind influence, and politicians have the capability to make themselves look very different than they are. I we all accept that we have no right to demand a politician represent us once the election is over, we are in for a lot of difficulty and serious manipulation.

In fact, I would argue that in this age of media manipulation, it is more important than ever that people demand that our system allow inter-election accountability.

[AllentownJake]

35. Change the way campaigns are funded and you get a step in the right direction

Second step is attacking media monopolies.

No need for recalls. Sometimes elected reps need to do unpopular things for the common good and they need time to cover for it.

The Mob is no more good of a rule than a King.

[Go2Peace]

13. OK, so in almost unison the "good little soldiers" try to drown the OP.

I should have expected that. Think about what you are doing to your neighbors with your anti-populist rhetoric.

[stray cat]

1. What democracies do you want to emulate then that are different?

[PBS Poll-435]

2. We have a Republic nt.

[Go2Peace]

4. We have a democratic republic, OK, so then explain where and when we no longer have a say in our gov

Sorry, I don't care what you call it. We don't have emperors here, we have elected officials who must ALWAYS represent their constituents.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. You have a say at the ballot box

You have a say when you call the office of your Congressman/Senators.

You have a say when you peacefully assemble.

You have a say when you write letters to the editor of your local newspaper.

You have a say when you support the campaigns of people running for office that share your values.




Other than that?

:shrug:

[Go2Peace]

15. I don't disagree. The vote is over. But some folks here are trying to suppress the voice of others

and make them feel like they should not. They sure should. Granted all of the dialog is gettng heated, but that is more because people feel strongly.

And as for Teabaggers, the reason they are dispicable is not because they protest, we protest too right? It is because they are hypocrites and selfish.

[AllentownJake]

17. Ignore them

or reply snarky to them. Is anyone really preventing you from posting what you want to?

[PBS Poll-435]

19. To quote the great Judge Judy, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining"

Who is suppressing anybody?

However, I believe that it is the constant nagging and criticism of Obama and his Administration that caused electoral malaise in New Jersey and Virginia. The result? I think you know.


Obama is not Bush. Things seem to gradually getting better. Why the need to piss and moan all the time?

[AllentownJake]

21. I'm going to disagree with you there

Corzine was a bad candidate and the party almost pulled the plug on him this summer. Deeds as well. Turnout was down. Corzine should have won with a Tea Bagger on the ballot and a GOPer. The Tea Bagger got 6% of the vote, democratic turnout was way down there though. Deeds shouldn't have lost by 18 points either, should have lost, but is should have been single digits.

That being said, in PA turnout was down. I don't know if it was malaise, people upset with the President, people being lazy because we are in power now, the health care bill or what, but turnout was down amongst Democrats.

[PBS Poll-435]

24. Why do you think turnout was down?

The constant criticism of Democrats in Washington DC.

The message from friends, family, the media, etc that nothing is getting done to improve the lives of ordinary Americans.

The Republicans seem to be engaged and going to the ballot box, why aren't we?

:shrug:

[AllentownJake]

27. Get this Health Care bill over with

Honestly that lengthy debate was not helpful...or healthy for the party and it had some real bad timing.

We've been debating ourselves for 6 months.

[Go2Peace]

34. I don't think the division will go away after health care, the debate was a surprise to many

that it even went the way it did opened a lot of people's eyes.

[Go2Peace]

41. Try to understand the other side of your party.

I think we may be the "older" side as well. We have watched this all happen over many years. And we particulary remember well what happened with Clinton. Clinton was also supposed to have been about change. And instead we saw that the face changed a bit, but that by not turned things around all we do is slow what is imminent. The other half of your party are not concerned about each nit and piece of policy and law, they are concerned because they understand that if we don't actually make serious change, the momentum will shift again and all that was won is lost again.

If we are to stop fascism, we must do far more than what we are doing. Like the housing bubble, if we don't actually change what caused it, but just play around and try to make it more paletible, it just comes back again and bigger.

So please, when you feel that we are all "complainers", try to understand our perspective.

[sandnsea]

3. "People" have power

It's just that it's the people who didn't vote for single payer health care or ending both wars in a week.

[vaberella]

5. You sound like a teabagger----not trying to be funny. n/t

[Go2Peace]

10. Your not being funny, you are being an asshole and trying to misreprest others

You and I both know that both of us are far from Teabaggers. Cut the moronic labling out. It is not intelligent. Be intellectually honest and debate my point without the names.

[vaberella]

12. An asshole---huh. I do have a rimming condom. n/t

[AllentownJake]

16. We are going back to primary level rhetoric

and I think it is time we all step it down a notch. I'm going to start doing that myself.

[vaberella]

20. Uh huh...I have more if you want one.

I was called an asshole----when I don't think I called anyone a particularly bad name. How would you like me to respond to that?

[AllentownJake]

26. You said he was sounding like a Tea Bagger

Honestly, if I called you a Tea Bagger what would you say to me?

I'm guilty of this shit as well, but the rhetoric on here needs to calm the fuck down.

[vaberella]

28. I would'n't have called you an asshole.

However if you called me a "cheerleader" that's something else. But I would like to know what I had said that seemed "teabaggerish"

But now I'm realizing people are equating teabaggers to bad things. I'm just noticing that they spout similar tings that the left do but come from different points of view.

But thank you for informing me that the OP was in the right to call me an asshole. As I was made to be illerate as well---it's good to have someone go that exra step.

[AllentownJake]

30. You want the tone on here to stay this way fine

I'm getting sick of half the OPs on here about others calling each other names, and yes I'm guilty of bad behavior. However, looking at the OPs in the two forums today, there seems to be a pissing contest over which group can say the most offensive thing to the other side, and at the end of the day, when we pull the curtain, we vote for the same people.

[vaberella]

45. Please calm the indignation.

You thought he other poster was fair in him calling me an asshole when I just found the tone of his post teabaggerish--and now you're sitting here and schooling me about language and tone and all this nonsense. You felt he had the right in his post and go as far, from what I can see, to defend his damned statement. And instead of reprimanding the poster---you come after me...I'm not about to listen to you when you're coming from that direction.

[AllentownJake]

46. Actually

I don't think I wrote anything here in support of his premise in the OP but I guess because I didn't call him a Tea Bagger, I came off as supportive.

[vaberella]

47. Post. # 26 with no comment to the poster himself. n/t

[AllentownJake]

48. I'd call you an asshole as well if you said that to me

[Go2Peace]

31. Calling a Democrat a "Teabagger" is about the worst thing you can call them

I probably should have used a less emotional word, but that was quite an unnecessary insult you hit me with. It would have been better to have debated my point.

If you would like I will delete the post. I could have used more temperance.

[PBS Poll-435]

32. Didn't quite call you a teabagger...

The person in question said you sound like a teabagger because your OP has this Bachmannesq mob-rule strategy.


Just an observation.

[Go2Peace]

37. So, honestly, why is saying that we have a right to be listened to "mob rule"

My critisizm of teabaggers is not that they protest. We did the same. And that is perfectly honorable.

It is more what they protest and how selfish and foolish they are, and that they support policies that are destroying the country? Well, I guess I could list more, they were dishonest about their numbers as well.

Anyway, what is wrong with expecting your representatives to change their policies if they are not what you voted for?

[Go2Peace]

18. Here is the definition

asshole - 3 dictionary results
ass⋅hole  /ˈæsˌhoʊl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA
Use asshole in a Sentence
–noun Vulgar. 1. anus.
2. Slang. a. a stupid, mean, or contemptible person.

Your approach fit the second definition not the first.

[vaberella]

23. ~sigh~ Now on top of being an asshole I'm illerate?

You stated, "They damned well better listen.." Well many a teabagger has said he same---actually that's the meme they usually push. You said a few other things---however in response I was called an asshole---brilliance.

[AllentownJake]

6. We are a republic with a representive democracy

Elections are held, representatives are picked, the representatives make the rules. You have a bill of rights that says you have freedom of speech. I think you are confusing democracy with the bill of rights.

In a democracy without a bill of rights there could be a vote to execute you without trial because people just don't like you, or there could be a vote to make certain speech punishable by death.

:shrug:

[Go2Peace]

22. I understand the legal nature of the system. But Representatives are there to represent

Obviously I did not do a good job explaining my point. Because I know from your posts we are very close on this.

So do you feel a representative need not pay attention to those they represent?

[AllentownJake]

29. The question is who do they represent

I'll give you my opinion, they represent their donors. Because those are the people who get them elected.

The American people are ok with all kinds of crazy shit as long as they can go to work, put food on the table, and provide for their kids.

They'll buy into each marketing effort every 2-4 years and move to throw people out when the above is being interfered with in some way.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Prism]

25. Embrace Bushism!

"We had an accountability moment, and that's called the 2004 elections." - George W. Bush

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12450-2005Jan15.html

All this nonsense about criticizing a politician after he's already been elected. Eesh. Philistines.

[treestar]

36. No one said any such thing

Quit being a martyr.

And if you're going to complain, there's still free speech for everyone else too. You can't be on DU and expect total agreement with your criticisms either.

But it is true that once elected, there is little you can do but call the congressperson, etc. and let your feelings be known. We can all do that.

[Go2Peace]

39. That is all I am saying. But quite a few people were saying "such a thing"

[truedelphi]

38. Over the last two decades, we have had a continuous battle between the

Kissenger-iasists, and the Leo Struass-ists. One being the political gang that got Bill Clinton elected, and the other being the crowd that finally got their kinda guy elected, Geo W.

Granted Bill Clinton was smarter and more personable, however, he still helped the Upper One Percent dismantle the middle incomed folks here at home.

Under Clinton, we had NAFTA and GATT, we had a war in Bosnia that will affect generations with the depleted uranium left behind. Clinton signed off on the media consolidation through the 1996 legislation. He signed off on the odious Banking Reform Act of 1999, and also allowed Glass Seagall to be vaporized. One of the few Senators to vote against Glass Steagall's demise said that in less than a decade, we would see that pulling the plug on Glass Steagall would be the ruin of the economy, and that ended up being true.

Greenspan was the top Clinton Economic choice, and the two bubbles that were created by Greenspan keeping the interest rates low both crashed and burned. {The latter housing bubble is leaving us still some 500 trillion bucks in debt.)

Then the Strauss crowd got in.

George W. read the Goat Story while the Nation was under attack. Then two days later, the thousand page plus Patriot Act was ready for our Congress to sign off on - after all what else could good and patriotic politicians do? Thus we have lost our rights to posse comitatus and habeus corpus.

Under Bush, we began first a war against the Afghanis, and then a horrid and genocidal war against the people of Iraq.

Despite those two wars, the Administration still claimed that somehow Osama Bin Laden remains free.

Over 4,400 service people have died in Iraq alone. And five hundred more in Afghanistan. We are at the point of owing at least two trillion for these wars.

The non-success of the two wars, the collapse of the economy, (Via the housing market bubbles collapse) and Bush's pathetic stand down in not rescuing the citizens of the city of New Orleans all came together in a perfect storm that pushed him out of office on Nov 4th of 2008. Even my RW, currently Tea Bagging neighbor voted for Obama, and this is an indication of how many people in the nation felt frustrated and wanted Bush out.

But we look at Obama's Administration and it has Oligarchy written all over it. We have the same style economic masters in power as from globalist Bill Clinton and George W Bush. The monies they have demanded to "BailOut" the economy, combined with last fall's Bush Bailout, now total over eleven trillion and counting. Yet most of these monies went for programs that help the bankers and the investors and the large corporations, while leaving the middle incomed without housing or jobs.

NAFTA retains its power and helps the rich put their money into markets in foreign nations, while the middle incomed here join 17% of the populace in looking in vain for work. Although Obama's people have vastly greater brain power and are enjoying using it when it comes to matters like Iran and Afghanistan, and they are not of the "Armageddon is good notion" that we see with the Strauss crowd, there is still nothing about the policies or the personnel of this Administration that is edging our nation away from its oligarchical stance and back into Democracy.

Those of us who are Democrats in the way that Bobby Kennedy was a Democrat, or Wellstone, Barbara Lee, Maxine Waters, or Dennis Kucinich know that what we are being served is shit on a shingle. It might have a smear of chocolate to help it go down, but it is not what we envisioned for ourselves or our nation when we were growing up.

[hileeopnyn8d]

42. You have a rather

disgusting typo in your post. I believe his name is OSama bin Laden.

The "B" and the "S" aren't even close to each other on the keyboard.

[truedelphi]

43. it is a mental macro

the second I type a capital "O" I follow it up with "bama" especially if I am typing quickly.

I did that even last year when I was enthralled with Candidate Obama.

And the last person who got so huffy about my typo startred doing a similar thing in one of his posts a day or two later.

"Mistakes happen." And thanks for the alert on the typo.

[hileeopnyn8d]

44. I understand

and I wasn't huffy. If it was intentional, you wouldn't have even acknowledged my post. I'll admit, I have a kneejerk reaction when I see it because it's a favorite of the right-wingers, which you are obviously not.

[truedelphi]

49. Well, hey there.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

I found it embarassing. I know i do this, and should hve double checked on it.

My mind had been focused on making sure I typed "Leo Strauss" and not "Levi Strauss" which is another one of those macros floating free style in my grey matter.