HCR: Vote to Allow Debate was Historical. Don’t Let the Media or Naysayers Convince You Otherwise.

[Avalux]

The question I want everyone to think about is this – “For the past 60 years, have Democrats EVER been this close to passing a bill that will, even incrementally, move us closer to health care for every American citizen?”

The answer, even if you are not happy with the current bill, is a bit fat ” NO”.

In April, the media reports and discussions on this board that gave zero chance to passing heath insurance reform. By all accounts it was dead in the water; President Obama would never get such a huge piece of legislation passed by the end of the year, yet alone during his presidency. The pundits and experts were confident of it; Republicans were in battle mode to ensure the predictions would become true.

August brought us screaming mimis at town hall meetings and tea bagger gatherings across the country. They were all angry and pissed off about SOMETHING; big insurance companies and Republican shadow men tapped into the anger and funded “astroturf” organizations who manipulated these poor souls into thinking that health care coverage for all Americans was evil; a socialist plot by Democrats in Congress, led by a fascist, communist, muslim, Kenyan-born anti-christ dictator named Barack Hussein Obama. They screamed “keep your hands off my Medicare” without understanding the origins of Medicare; without understanding they were protesting their own best interests.

Congress resumed after the craziness of August, the House and the Senate continuing to work on their respective versions of health insurance reform. The Senate’s finance committee bill made it through with defeats of amendments which would have added strong public options. Baucus was much-maligned and given the thumbs down by most Democrats (myself included), but the bill passed; to be merged with the HOPE bill that had made it through committee earlier.

The House bill was passed after defeating anything resembling single payer or a strong public option. Opportunistic conservative Democrats found a way to hijack the bill with an amendment that would effectively outlaw abortions for anyone with health insurance . Have they not read the Democratic Platform? we all asked. So it was done and the bill passed.

Now here we are with one bill in the Senate that has been given life. It stands alone as the sole piece of legislation of it’s kind; it’s made it further than any that came before.
During the next month or so, there will be an all out war by the media, Republicans and the health insurance lobby to kill the bill before it can become law.

Regardless - debate will occur; changes will be made and I am fully confident an imperfect health insurance reform bill will be signed into law by President Obama before the end of the year.

The law won’t be what many of us wanted; it’s not going to cover everyone who needs health care NOW. But it is a start, and that’s more than I thought was possible months ago. It will be a a starting point which can be expanded upon to eventually encompass every American; just like Medicare and Social Security so many years ago. Democrats, once again, will be responsible for progress; The ONLY political party that has passed legislation benefiting the common American in the past 70 years.

[phantom power]

1. I question the premise.

Will the bill move us, even incrementally, toward universal health insurance?

[Avalux]

2. YES.

It's a foot in the door, just like Medicare and SS were.

[Donnachaidh]

4. Medicare and SS were NOT mandates forcing people to purchase from a FOR PROFIT company

equating them to this corporate give away is disgusting.

[timeforpeace]

16. Agreed. And saying that getting 60 Dems to allow debate only is a historical event is pitiful. A

procedural move is historical? Setting the bar pretty low there.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

17. what will be historical is the 2010 election results, proving Dean right.

the change in power will be jaw dropping.

I, for one, will refuse to put in the same energy or money that I did in 2008-2009. Not if all we get is sand kicked in our face BY DEMOCRATS and a DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT.
that is what this bill is. Sand in the face.

Historic? My ass. Hysterical, more like it. We have been conned, folks, and a public option or single payer were never in the cards. The deck was rigged, and Obama is turning out to be a sell out to Big Pharm and the insurance industry.

[ChiciB1]

81. I'm Seeing It More & More & Have Been Saying It For Some Time "ChairmanAgnostic" So

what you say is what I'm hearing more and more as time goes by. As a died in the wool Democrat since around 11 years old, I'm not sure WHAT the Democratic Party stands for anymore!

I posted on another thread that we are seeing quite a demise, not only are Repukes looking like utter fools and failures, Democrats WHO CONTROL D.C. at the moment just can't seem to get off the dime! Obama as a STRONG leader seems to be waning more and more and our very own Representatives (save a minority few) have basically abandoned those of us who worked so hard to "hand them everything they needed!"

This Health Care thing really looks dicey and regardless of what many are spouting (like it's a start anyway) I feel we are getting sold down the river! Howard Dean seems to be worrying more too from what I've heard. HCR as a "start" seems like a LIE waiting to happen. Think about NAFTA as being "just a start" which NEVER actually got revisited!

I'm afraid that as more and more people are turning into Independents, Democrats SHOULD be really trying to "buck up" and fight for "we the people" as they once did! They seem oblivious though, and that unfortunately includes Obama, as I'm seeing it now.

I so wish there was an easy way to rid this party of many, many representatives that we have now, but it's a difficult process! Too many of us are now ready to throw in the towel and say SCREW IT!!

And now I'm ready for the reply, "that we need to stick together or we're doomed!" Doomed from what, I'm not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Gee, I'm not even sure where the tunnel IS these days!

JMHO

[MNDemNY]

3. No, it will only serve to create an illusion that "we took care of that health care thingy"...

Thus freezing it in place for years-decades. This bill must die.

[Avalux]

7. And then what?

The cost of healthcare grows so much over the next 10 years that most Americans can't afford it? I'd suggest looking at those facts.

[MNDemNY]

8. There is nothing in this bill to stop that from happening , anyway.

You will see increases in premiums in the 15-25% in each of the next 2-3 years. I'd suggest pulling your head out from the sand and seeing that this bill(the Senate or the House) do little to curb costs. Do you really think that the Industry will 'play nice"???

[MNDemNY]

20. then?

i guess then you cry to the mods.:cry: :cry:

[Cha]

27. Your fucking bully shit "crying to mods" is way past stale.

[MNDemNY]

31. You are beyond stale.

[inna]

13. Universal health care DOES NOT EQUAL mandated racket for parasitic, profiteering insurance corps.

As far as I am concerned, this insurance Deform will only delay, possibly by decades, a true HCR (i.e., Universal Health Care for all citizens - something that is taken for granted in ALL other industrialized countries). Come on people, it's time to join the rest of the civilized world. This bill is a sham and distraction; it amounts to a huge and unprecedented, massively regressive back door tax on the struggling middle/working class, and enshrines the position of parasitic, profiteering insurance "industry".

Kill this bill and start over next year, with true health care reform (i.e., universal health care funded by progressive taxation, ihat is, the way it's done everywhere else in the civilized world). Enough of this nonsense.

[MNDemNY]

15. But, but We Need a "WIN", and a Rose Garden Signing Ceremony!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

18. WINd. as in breaking.

I read the senate version. it is crap. NOT ONE THING to control insurance costs to the consumer. The public option is a joke. And the anti-immigrant provisions are inhumane. It was as thought a bunch of K Street lobbyists and GOP senators wrote it.

Oh, wait. They did.

[MNDemNY]

19. HCR as it is playing out today, must die.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

29. I agree. half a rancid, stinking, fetid cup, filled with a poisonous brew

tis not worth the bother. Too many here sip the kool-aid of a pleasant, bright, and amiable president, and forget that leadership is quite another thing. There is little from this white house.

[Avalux]

30. Wow. Another anti-Obama 'democrat.' WTF??? n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

33. when he stands up for progressive ideals, I will be standing there with him.

I'm still waiting.

The Wall Street bail out, to the extent that he stimulated their bonuses, still rankles. His deal with Big Pharma? Sucks. their lies that they did not do it, after which it was proven that they did? sorry, that is a Bush league move, not something we expected from a D admin.

[ClarkUSA]

40. You're blaming him for "stimulating" Wall Street bonuses and the BushCo TARP program?

Pres. Obama is not to blame for either.

I prefer to focus on the following:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8730317&mesg_id=8730317

Order the closing of Guantanamo Bay

Prohibit use of torture

Obama Orders Secret Prisons and Detention Camps Closed

Obama Sets Bold New Principles for U.S. Energy, Climate Policies

Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009

Appointed a Special Envoy for Middle East Peace

American Recovery and Reinvestment Act

The Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act

Omnibus Public Lands Management Act

Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Relief Program Act of 2009

Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act of 2009 or FERA (PDF)

Helping Families Save Their Homes Act of 2009

Enhanced Partnership with Pakistan Act of 2009 (Kerry-Lugar includes funding for Obama's global poverty initiative)

Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act of 2009

End of 22-Year Discriminatory Travel Ban

Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act

Stopping Conflict-related Sexual Violence Against Women and Children

The UN, Women & Girls

New policy steps towards Cuba

Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty with Russia

Strategy to address the international nuclear threat

For the Media: "30+ Reasons Obama deserves the Nobel Peace Prize"

Russia on Nobel Peace Prize: Obama thawing 'second cold war'

World Reaction to Obama Winning the Nobel

Turkey, Armenia sign historic accord

Why the Stimulus Worked

Green jobs for real people: The story behind the recovery numbers

Obama's Plan: Financial Regulatory Reform: A New Foundation (PDF)

Requiring Strong Supervision And Appropriate Regulation Of All Financial Firms (pdf)

Strengthening Regulation Of Core Markets And Market Infrastructure (pdf)

Strengthening Consumer Protection (pdf)

Providing The Government With Tools To Effectively Manage Failing Institutions (pdf)

Improving International Regulatory Standards And Cooperation (pdf)

House Panel Moves Derivatives Toward Obama’s Proposal

FACTBOX: Major U.S. financial regulation reform proposals

Obama says Senate bill on tax havens would stop abuses

Statement by President Barack Obama on House and Senate Introducing Legislation to Crack Down on Overseas Tax Havens

Obama to chair historic U.N. council nuclear meeting

G20 to Become Forum for Global Economic Cooperation

Next comes Obama's budget, health care reform and more.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

41. ah, quoting Rahm's low hanging fruit, are we?

[ClarkUSA]

43. Not sure what you're sneering about, but I do know you're not answering my question.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

56. and do you usually forget to include a question mark in a question?

I saw none there. So, please, repeat it.
and explain the Patriot Act bullshit, if you would.

[ClarkUSA]

58. See Reply #40. Notice the question mark? nt

[Canuckistanian]

44. I admire your passion

And I agree with your premise.

But unless there is a shred of momentum on this, it will die as Hillary Clinton's bill did in 1993.

I understand the issue here. If the bill dies completely, healthcare dies with it for another unknown period of time.

But if it passes, it can be improved on. Bills are not static, unchanging things, carved in stone. They can be amended, improved on, rescinded or replaced.

The Canadian system didn't appear suddenly, overnight. It took a few battles, a few incremental changes.

It was ultimately the passage of time and the realization of people that it was the right thing to do.

[ClarkUSA]

45. The huge majority of liberals who support HCR and support the President differ with you.

Guess who the WH and the Democratic Congress is listening to? :)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

46. well, it is not you.

and unfortunately, it is not us, either. The Obama White House is becoming a travesty. They are willing to sell us out for their own re-election. and in that, they will fail.

[ClarkUSA]

47. You do not speak for me. I support Democratic HCR efforts and respect Team Obama's accomplishments.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

49. i would never want to speak for you. I only hope that your

blinders fall off before our current future train wreck comes to pass.

[ClarkUSA]

51. I see things clearer than some who blame Obama for "stimulating" Wall Street bonuses & BushCo's TARP

The way I, most economists and G20 world leaders see it, President Obama and his team have averted a global and
domestic train wreck. There's more work to do, but that goes without saying after only a year in office dealing with
the worst economy since the Great Depression, not to mention two wars and a partisan Congress.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

55. Say, how's that Patriot Act bullshit coming? Feel safer now that Obama

has adopted the Bush Plan?
Yesseree we really picked a winner. And we are paying the fucking price for it.

This administration is becoming the problem, not the solution.
Change? yeah. what I have left in my pocket.

[ClarkUSA]

57. Better than your BS blaming Pres. Obama for BushCo's TARP and for "stimulating" Wall Street bonuses.

:eyes:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

59. have you seen this crap? PLS read and return to comment.

read it all at http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/11/23-6

"But with the apparent approval of the Obama White House and a number of Republicans – and over the objections of liberal Senate Democrats including Russ Feingold of Wisconsin and Dick Durbin of Illinois – the Senate Judiciary Committee has voted to extend the three provisions with only minor changes. Those provisions would leave unaltered the power of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to seize records and to eavesdrop on phone calls and e-mail in the course of counterterrorism investigations. The parts of the act due to expire on Dec. 31 deal with:

National Security Letters (NSLs)

The FBI uses NSLs to compel Internet service providers, libraries, banks, and credit reporting companies to turn over sensitive information about their customers and patrons. Using this data, the government can compile vast dossiers about innocent people.

The 'Material Support' Statute

This provision criminalises providing "material support" to terrorists, defined as providing any tangible or intangible good, service or advice to a terrorist or designated group. As amended by the Patriot Act and other laws since Sep. 11, this section criminalises a wide array of activities, regardless of whether they actually or intentionally further terrorist goals or organisations.

[ClarkUSA]

60. I notice you're still not answering my question from last night. See Reply #40.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

61. broken record much, while changing the issue?

[ClarkUSA]

63. Avoid a question much, while wanting an answer from me? You go first. I'm still waiting.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[derby378]

6. I never thought the day would come...

...where I thought the Senate bill had more promise than the House bill.

Shame on Nancy Pelosi for her lack of leadership on this issue. Here's hoping the Senate version of the PO prevails in the end without an opt-out or trigger.

[MNDemNY]

9. Hope is all you got, and it is fleeting.

[Autumn]

24. Shame on them ALL,

what a low bar we have set and what a stripped off bone we are so willing to accept, just to say we won one.

[ClarkUSA]

39. No shame is felt by liberals like me. It's better than the crash-and-burn that was Hillarycare. nt

[BREMPRO]

64. I agree. Obama learned from Hillarycare failure and we now actually have a chance to pass historic

health care legislation. I agree it's not perfect, but as was pointed out in another thread, we currently have NO health care system, just a jumble of unregulated competing interests that are on an unsustainable path. This bill at least can give us a framework to build on and improve. Any democrat that doesn't support this should keep in mind a failure on this bill would likely lose the chance for health care reform for another decade, and on worse terms.

[Autumn]

94. Well since Hillarycare didn't happen,

due in a large part to the politicians then that seems to me to be completely irrelevant. I had hoped this President and current crop of politicians could do better. Never can tell, in a few years a lot of people may be snarking about "Obamacare."

[firedupdem]

10. Rec'd ! Excellent post.....

This bill will be improved upon for years to come. This is a big step and I was damn proud of Democrats standing together (for once) to get the 60 votes necessary to 'keep working on it'. It won't be perfect, but it's a definitely needed start.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x11160

[Politicub]

14. +1 Thanks for some needed perspective n/t

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Better Today]

12. Who caresif it is or is not historical? It will only be historically "good" if and when

any kind of real reform is shown in the combined final bill and if and when that final bill is passed, then lastly if and when any program actually starts.

What you're saying imo is that we should be rejoicing because we finally hit a single after having nothing but strike outs for decades. Not a very strong reason for cheering, not necessarily historical unless something more comes of it. Time will tell, you may be right, it may be the historical step to the future, or it may be just another false step.

[Cha]

26. It's historical because it's been needed before but it's never

happened! Hello.

[Better Today]

54. Yes, but if nothing or something weak and awful comes of it, it won't be the kind of history to

rejoice about. Hello.

I won't be counting any chickens till they're hatched and healthy, so to speak. I'm old enough to have seen things get this far before, (maybe no health insurance reform, but other things), then not advance.

Feel free to rejoice, I just won't be joining in at this time.

[Better Today]

68. Turns out you're wrong. I thought the 1993-4 round of HCR had

made it, hence making this not historical at all. Lawrence O'Donnell has the facts at this DU video post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x406421

[Avalux]

21. Thank you to those who are supportive in this thread.

I guess I'm a little surprised by the lack of response and the negative (and personal) attacks my post has garnered.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Many of us are right there with you......

we just don't come to DU as much as we once did....
since it is no longer the Democratic Underground,
but the If-I-can't-have-exactly-what-I-demand-I'll-have-the-same-negative-things-to-say-over-and-over-again-because-I-don't-care-about-any-improvements-because-its-not-what-I-dreamed-of-not-even-close-plus-I-believe-the-press-if-it-helps-me-make-my-same-point-oh-and-obama-stinks-far-as-I'm-concerned-where's-my-change-I-can't-hear-you Underground

[Avalux]

23. Thank you.

I don't post much anymore either; nice to see you. :hug:

[BREMPRO]

65. The silent majority is with you. the voices in opposition are the

vestigial structures of the Kucinich single payer campaign and are loud, misinformed, uncompromising, and annoying.

[Better Today]

69. Thanking people for believing you when you're wrong???? Perhaps its time

now to apologize to those you've mislead with flawed data.

[Avalux]

71. And who is determining I'm "wrong" - you?

:rofl:

[Better Today]

76. Lawrence O'Donnell who was there in 1994. Here's a link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x406421

Laugh all you want, you're wrong.

[ClarkUSA]

25. Thanks for the timely reminder.

The 24/7 naysayers don't want Democrats to succeed. Not sure why they are allowed to stay here because they sure are driving the rest of us away.

[freddie mertz]

28. What an ironic sentiment to express...

In a thread celebrating a successful vote to ALLOW DEBATE.

[Cha]

32. Yeah, we're celebrating but the "naysayers" are doing

nothing but their usual DOOM-Gloom Shit.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

34. If this bill were worth celebrating, i would be.

Maybe some magician will pull a wabbit out of his hat. But, so far, it looks like the bill will be a watered down, keep the status quo, and support your poor, local insurer kind of bill.

[freddie mertz]

35. That's what debate IS. An echo chamber has no debate.

The heated exchanges we are seeing (too heated much of the time, IMHO) reflect the debate that is going on right now in the party and in progressive circles across the nation.

This is the world we are living in right now, with VERY big issues at stake.

It is not unique to DU, and DU would be a bleak and irrelevant place if those discussions were NOT represented here.

[ClarkUSA]

38. What's ironic is the number of anti-Obama DUers whose motto is "This bill must die." nt

[inna]

52. Not just ironic, but also lame and even slightly disturbing. nt

[Clio the Leo]

36. So my company sent some nutritionists to speak with us today.....

..... they were provide by our health insurance company. This was one of the many improvments that the company has offered since this latest enrollment.

Re-enrollment was made tremendously easier, more services were provided, the premium did NOT go up.

In short, the insurance company is trying to KEEP my company's business.

The hey day of the evil-overlord insurance companies are coming to an end and they know it. They are getting their respective houses in order to try to survive in what will become a more competitive marketplace.

Their days are numbered.

They know it ... even if some of us dont.

Excellent post.

[firedupdem]

37. A friend of mine told me a similar story. These insurance companies

know they have been raping us all....they are trying to keep their best clients.

[Scurrilous]

42. K & R

:thumbsup:

[jenmito]

48. Lawrence O'Donnell keeps saying we've been here before-in 1994.

But that's not true. We have NOT had a cloture vote after having passed a bill in the House. We're at a much later stage now. He keeps saying the same thing. :eyes:

[ClarkUSA]

50. I think he's suffering from PTSD (Political Traumatic Stress Disorder) from Hillarycare's epic fail.

Staffers who lived through the early Clinton era went through an HCR nightmare of failure after failure that
ended in the GOP House takeover, the first time Democrats hadn't a majority in 40 years. I'm not surprised
he's suffering from flashbacks.

[jenmito]

53. I think you're right.

I just wish he'd stop spreading his doom and gloom around.

[ClarkUSA]

62. Do you recall what a Debbie Downer Rachel Maddow was before the general election?

She was convinced our guy would not win, would barely manage to get Democrats to actually go and vote as opposed to showing
up at his rallies, etc. I stopped watching her then and haven't gone back. I like O'Donnell much more but alot of Democrats have
this loser attitude that we of the Yes We Can ilk can't relate to. BTW, O'Donnell didn't think the stimulus plan would pass for the
longest time, either. He also thought the public option was near death in August, so he's not infallible to Beltway think.

[jenmito]

70. I sure do...

She also insisted Hillary would take her fight all the way to the Convention. And I don't remember O'Donnell didn't think the stimulus bill would pass. That's good to know-he has a history of being wrong. :)

[ClarkUSA]

72. Nobody's perfect but O'Donnell is still the talking head I like most.

His heart is in the right place and unlike so many MSM types, he's no media whore. Plus, I liked watching West Wing immensely. :)

[jenmito]

73. I like him less now than I used to...

I guess because all he ever talks about, it seems, is the HCR bill and how it won't pass.

[ClarkUSA]

74. Hmm... I haven't watched him awhile now. Will he be on tonight?

If he is, I'll give you my opinion afterwards. I'll probably be annoyed and turn the channel but ultimately, I am sympathetic
due to his Hillarycare PTSD. Too bad we don't have his contact info. Do you still email Jack Cafferty? I heard he's turned
into a Debbie Downer, too.

[jenmito]

77. He subbed for Rachel Maddow last night...

He was SUCH a downer that when his guest, Sherrod Brown, came on, he commented on what a negative assessment he gave re: HCR. I don't know O'Donnell's email address or any other way to contact him. I haven't emailed Cafferty in months. He HAS turned into a Debbie Downer, even using RW talking points at times. Sad.

[ClarkUSA]

78. Well, the statistics say the bill has a 97% chance of passing at this point in the debate.

O'Donnell has been surprised before by Team Obama. He will again.

But we won't be 'cause we have never underestimated our guy. ;)

[jenmito]

80. I agree with the statistics...

and not O'Donnell. We're at a MUCH later stage in getting a bill passed than in HIS day.

[ClarkUSA]

89. "We're at a MUCH later stage in getting a bill passed than in HIS day."

Exactly.

[Better Today]

67. Here's the link to the post with his report

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x406421

[jenmito]

79. And as one poster pointed out:

”Yes, but what he forgets that is different

is that this is the first time a bill that has come up through the senate itself has proceeded. And I think that this makes a huge difference. In a sense, 90% of the debate and compromise has already occurred. Back in 94, it was a bill handed down from the WH, and after the motion to proceed, the knocking it down began. This time, the issues have been run through the sausage grinder for six or seven months already.。。”

[Better Today]

66. Turns out this not only isn't historical, when compared to 1994, it's an

embarrassingly partisan vote this time. It was 100 for debate last time.

[Avalux]

75. Yes, 1994 was so much better!

FAIL.

[Better Today]

83. That's been my point all along. Don't get too excited, it isn't historical till the bill passes and

is actually worth more than a boost to insurance corps.

[jenmito]

82. You, like O'Donnell, are wrong. They had not gone through months of debate and then passage in the

House like this time, not to mention there was no debate in the Senate yet back then, either.

[Better Today]

84. Those qualifications are not part of the OP. Hey, feel free to move the goalposts.

[Avalux]

85. Did you read the OP?

"This piece of legislation has made it further than any other of it's kind"

What does that mean to you?

HCR has passed the House and is up for debate and final vote in the Senate. Never happened in 1994.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/may96/background/health_debate_page3.html

[Better Today]

86. Avalux, I did read it, and I've determined that your excitement is deluded and misplaced

Deal with it.

[Avalux]

88. No, I will not deal with it.

Your authoritarian demeanor is quite ugly.

[Better Today]

90. You have to deal with what I posted because I'm not changing my mind, so you have

no choice but to deal with the fact that my opinion differs from yours and that I consider yours delusional and misplaced.

The only other option you have is to make me change my mind and that ain't gonna happen on this topic. I will remain open to the possibility regarding other topics.

[Avalux]

92. LOL!!!

Do you talk to people in real life like that? I feel sorry for them.

[Better Today]

93. No, I don't need to, they aren't stubborn to the truth as you are.

[jenmito]

87. Yes, they are. Hey, feel free to keep denying it, though.

[Better Today]

91. My point is that those were not the "historical" issues. The title is pretty clear.

The vote to allow debate on health insurance reform is not historical. (I still refuse to call it health care reform)