Biden says Senate handed Obama a big victory

[ProSense]

Biden says Senate handed Obama a big victory

By MIKE GLOVER, AP Political Writer

DES MOINES, Iowa – Vice President Joe Biden told Iowa Democrats on Saturday that the Senate handed the president a big victory with its decision to move forward with debate on sweeping legislation to overhaul the nation's health care system.

"Tonight we have more momentum than we've ever had in the history of health care discussions,'" Biden told about 1,000 Democrats in Des Moines.

Biden's comments at the Iowa Democratic Party's largest fundraiser, the Jefferson Jackson Dinner, came shortly after the 60-39 vote in the Senate that cleared the way for a full-scale debate on the health care bill. Biden said his speech was delayed as he worked the phone to lobby swing lawmakers.

"I see the special interests raising tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars to defeat our agenda," Biden said. "We've never thought change would be easy. You all knew change would be hard. It's hard to change the direction of a nation that's been adrift for at least eight years."

more

[BlooInBloo]

1. Heh. Just one more step...

an important one, but just a step.

Nothing wrong with rallying the troops though.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jkshaw]

4. Obama is a corporate whore?

Very nice.

[ProSense]

5. "corporate whore "

Are you trying to hurt his feelings?

[Clio the Leo]

7. Anyone remember the rap group "Whodini"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLYC7ltxOrk

You ever notice that?

[ProSense]

8. Loved Whodini

:rofl:

[Cha]

9. More anonymous mindless whining from the fail whore.

[HughMoran]

22. All I see is a single word

Why are all you folks talking to "ignored"?

[Cha]

You're obviously not

missing anything..just more whining from the stagnation club.

[HughMoran]

34. I thought I went overboard

when I added a whole bunch of folks after the DK shakeup. I still "peek" at what they are saying and I haven't yet removed one of them from the list. My stress levels here are MUCH lower now too. It's all good.

[Cha]

36. I should do that..

Their posts mean absolutely nothing and I just get upset and can't seem to let them go unanswered.

I think I've enough of that distraction..thanks, I'm glad we talked.:)

[ellie]

47. I like to read what they

are saying and have no one on ignore. It is comforting, really. They are as predictable as a sunrise.

[27inCali]

31. you expect anyone to take that seriously?

really?

[Aramchek]

39. Obama just keeps on winning and you can't stand it. Enjoy your bitterness, we'll enjoy our Victory!

[dflprincess]

3. The bill hands Obama a victory

and most of us get handed bills from the insurance companies.

[ProSense]

6. Nonsense.

You can keep paying the insurance company you're paying now or you can opt out and join the exchange, or not. Your choice.

[dflprincess]

12. Nonesense yourself

individuals who have coverage through their employer will not have the option of joining the exchange. We will continue to be stuck with what ever craptacular policy our employer picks.

And, it will be years before this "exhange" is up and running giving the insurance companies plenty of time to jack up their rates and squeeze as much out of us as they can.

[Clio the Leo]

15. Serious question.........

.... why is the GOP using the meme of "this will drive us toward socialism!!! People will be forced into the exchange!!! Eventually there will be no more private insurance!!!" as one of their primary scare tactics?

[dflprincess]

19. Because that's what Republicans do

there is nothing in this bill that will lead us to socialism and they know it. But they do know that for most of us all this bill will do is reenforce the status quo and we'll continue to pay higher premiums while getting less access to care.

In the end, when the public figures out how badly they've been scammed by this bill, the Republicans will be able to point to it and say "see, we told you 'government' health care wouldn't work."

The other evening on Olbermann, Wendell Potter and Keith were discussing how this bill will allow companies to sell across state lines and that any mandates required will be those of the state the policy was issued in. They speculated that, like the credit card companies did, the insuruance companies will head to states with the least regulation (and that worked out so well for us).

The were also article at FireDogLake & Consumer Watchdog about this:

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/patients/articles/?storyId=31200

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/19/at-the-request-of-ahip-senate-bill-guts-state-health-insurance-regulations/

I do admit I haven't found this section of the bill yet and that I'm finding the Senate bill much harder to plow through than the House bill. But, if these reports are accurate, this is especially worrisome for women's and children's health as the majority of health care coverage mandates are for conditions more common in or exclusive to women and childred.

[Clio the Leo]

24. ah, see ........

... you had me until you said "I haven't found this in the bill yet." ;)

[dflprincess]

25. I was being honest

I wasn't going to state as a fact that it's in the bill. I do trust that KO and Potter had more time (or assistants) to go through it as, I suppose, the sources at FireDogLake and the LA Times (where the Consumer Watch article came from) do as well. But, again, I wasn't going to say I found and read it myself. The bill does refer in some places to amendments it makes to other legislation but it's not really clear to me what is being amended.

[Clio the Leo]

27. And I appreciate that, I really do........

.... but if you're willing to presume that something is probably true based on second-hand information when that presumption assumes that the Democratic authors of the bill are NOT acting in the best interest of the people. Well, I have a MAJOR problem with that. Your judgement may be a wee bit clouded.

Whenever we have the notion that our own party is attempting to screw us over we have major problems. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I like to give family the benefit of the doubt.

[dflprincess]

30. I have more faith in what Keith Olbermann and Wendell Potter

and a reporter for the LA Times say about the bill than a bunch of corporate sell outs that depend on the insurance industry for campaign "donations". There's also a lot of people here who are willing to take second-hand information as proof that this bill is just wonderful.

This isn't the first time the Republican wing of the Democratic party has been willing to sell us out (NAFTA, credit card refrom, bankruptcy reform - I'm starting to get nervous when I hear the word "reform") and I don't consider that wing of the party to be "family".


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Clio the Leo]

35. But yet we welcome votes by the Blue Dogs when they gladly vote in our favor......

... or when they, by there very presence, allow us to wield the gavel to get the legislation started to begin with. Crazy.

And I LOVE Olbermann, trust me, love him like a play cousin, but there is no way I'm going to presume that he knows MORE about the matter at hand than the men and women who wrote the legislation and work on the Hill every day. Now, if the matter involved excellent professional journalism, or heck .... baseball ... I'd go to Keith. He is the expert, he does it. He lives it.

If we presume that the GOP is screwing us over (and I think its safe to we agree on that at least) and we presume our own party is screwing us over. .... What's the point?

[dflprincess]

37. Most the peole on the Hill probably haven't read the legislation

and who wrote it is probably open to debate. I would imagine lobbyists had a good deal of input.

It's very likey that reporters would have a better grasp of what's in the bill as they would have access to lawyers to help them interpret it and they are more much apt to have read it because they're reporting on it.

And, after 37 years of activism with the DFL, I am wondering "what's the point?". This insurance scam may be the last straw for me.

[Clio the Leo]

40. So the health insurance lobby helped write a bill .....

.... they are desperately trying to kill?

Well, "I would imagine" that Reid, Baucus, Dodd and the WH wrote a bill they thought had the best chance of passing. I can do that as well.

And Senators are either lawyers themselves or have aids who help them read the bill. They also (again, if we are imagining things) are likely aware of what's in the bill before it's released, unlike the press.

It works both ways.

As for your last line, obviously you have to do what you think is right, but it is that attitude that got us 8 years of George Bush and the Republican revolution of '94. Again, we can hang together or we'll all hang separately.

If you think a Republican majority is a better alternative to a Democratic one, I cant quite understand why, but the choice is yours.

[dflprincess]

41. We have a majority of representatives who call themselves Democrats

but vote more like Republicans. I'm done voting for Blue Dogs and DLCers and you sure won't find me writing them any checks or wasting my time working on their campaign because they're the "lesser of evils". If they're voting against the public's best interests and enabling corporate crooks, I don't care what letter they put after their names.

Maybe it's time the Democratic party figured out that when they lose elections it's because they've turned their voters off and they don't show up. The Democrats need to start representing the middle and working classes again. They had a chance with health care to pass real reform and seal their majority for years, instead they chose to protect their campaign "donations".

[Clio the Leo]

42. Please, I BEG you.....

.... come with me to Blue Dog country and help me find some progressive candidates ...... first we'll have to find some progressive voters though. (Hint, you cant count me.)

You may want to pack a magnifying glass .... maybe a divining rod if you have one. ;)

[cornermouse]

52. They aren't "trying desperately to kill it".

On the contrary, the only thing they're trying to kill are certain portions which might temporarily force them to cover people that they wouldn't have covered. And given the distant date of implementation, I would say their chances of doing that are really good. Other than that, they love this monster. It will force millions of healthy young people to buy health insurance that they won't be using. It will put them in the position of having continual access to federal funds that is mandated by law. Overall, insurance companies are happy little campers.

I wish you guys would stop to think instead of just believing everything they tell you to believe.

And by the way, accusing others of being republicans, whether subtle or overt, is not the way to win arguments. Trying to force liberals to support what is basically a conservative democratic to moderate republican agenda is pretty much a guarantee that "we'll all hang separately".

[ProSense]

16. "individuals who have coverage through their employer will not have the option..." Nonsense

Facts and more facts.

Try reading the bill instead of just complaining.

[dflprincess]

23. The exchange - which will largely be made up of the same crooks

we are currently sending checks to.

Also, the House bill does not allow this and the Senate bill has not passed. Let's wait and see what comes out of conference committee. Whatever the final version is, you can bet the private insurers will still be making out like the bandits they.

BTW - is it okay with you that I have been contacting my Senators and Reps about the need for actual reform or, because they support this POS and I don't agree with them, should I just STFU because anything else is "complaining"?

[ProSense]

26. "Also, the House bill does not allow this " Wrong, again

fact

[dflprincess]

38. The House bill does not allow anyone with access to an employer based

plan to opt for the "public option". Even if they can pick from the exchange (which won't exist for years) they will still be choosing from private plans. They will be "mandated" to either take what their employer offers or choose for themselve which bunch of crooks they will be forced to pay.

[ProSense]

45. Yes, it does. n/t

[treestar]

44. You have coverage!

I cannot friggin' believe this post! You have coverage! This is for people who don't have access to anything!

[dflprincess]

48. I have coverage

but not access to anything but a few preventative tests. As of the January 1, the first $1,200 is out of pocket and after that the coverage is 80/20 (assuming Cigna actually pays its share, a lot of times, it doesn't) up to $3700. There's no point in the preventative tests if you can't afford any follow up that maybe necessary. Of course, the out of pockets can always be put on a credit card - making the credit card companies the other big winners in this scam.

This is the system both the House and Senate are setting up for most of us. They may drop the number of uninsured but the number of underinsured will climb as premiums and deductibles continue to go up - especially for the next few years before any of these "reforms" really go into effect.

Tell yourself that this is just step one, but if it's the best the Democrats can come up with with the majorities they have now, how will they ever get anything else passed when they start losing seats?

[TankLV]

17. Boy - you just PROVED you have no idea of what you're attempting to talk about!

That is about the farthest from the FACTS of the bills, that it's laughable if it weren't so sad...

ONLY A FEW THOUSAND WHO CURRENTLY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO INSURANCE WILL BE ELIGIBLE TO PARTAKE OF ANY PUBLIC OPTION!!!

IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE ALREADY - YOU ARE AUTOMATICALLY EXCLUDED FROM EVEN ASKING TO PARTICIPATE!!!

GO READ THE FUCKING BILL LEARN WHAT'S ACTUALLY IN IT!!!

[Clio the Leo]

20. ha ha haaaaaaaa ........ oh that was funny.....

.... see, the "F'ING BILL!!!" was released on Wednesday .... but on Friday Senators Wyden, Rei .........

... oh nevermind. It's not worth it.

(I'm having a Barney Frank moment lol)

[Cha]

10. That's a narrow tiny tunnelly

little view you have there. You should get out and breathe. Or do you just like complaining?

[dflprincess]

14. What, exactly, does that mean?

Perhaps you need to move the poms poms from in front of your eyes and take a good look at the scam we're having shoved down our throats.

RomneyCare is not reform.

[Cha]

18. Yeah, the Senate is going forward with debating

Health Care and that makes you miserable.

[dflprincess]

21. They aren't debating health care

they're debating health insurance. If you haven't seen "Sicko", rent it. If you have seen it, watch it again and this time pay attention. It makes it very clear that health insurance and health care have very little to do with each other. Having "coverage" doesn't mean you can access care.

I was foolish enough to believe we might see meaningful reform once we had control of Congress and the White House, instead they're looking for ways to protect the insurance companies. You would think, as long as I've been active in politics, I would not have been so naive. And yes, I'm damned mad about being sold out.

[derby378]

58. What Pelosi and Reid call "compromise," we call "apostasy"

Well said! :hi:

[gateley]

11. I hope this quote is so:

"Those who voted for reform with be rewarded and those who voted against it will be held accountable," Biden said.

[Cha]

13. Yes, it's only right that those

who want to stand in the way of this historic progress will not have any progress themselves.

[jillan]

59. Oh yeah - I hope this is how it will be.

[donco]

28. I have a question

Once this plan is implemented, can the plan be changed/jiggled to something more to our liking?If so,would that require 60 votes?

[Clio the Leo]

29. Senators need 60 votes to get to Heaven.

(ha!)

Yes, they always need 60 votes to begin or end debate. ...... And it can always be changed if they can get those 60 votes. I think that would either take having this around for years so that what is now "liberal" became normal or it would take some giant shift in the political leanings of this country to become a lot more progressive, but yeah. It can always be amended/repealed/whatever.

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[firedupdem]

33. Rec'd....let's keep it moving. n/t

[JDPriestly]

43. The bill is not what I would like, but it will eventually mean that

everyone can get primary care. And that is worth a lot.

I'll be happy if it is viewed as a victory for Obama. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, and I say so here on DU. But I want him to succeed. My criticisms are aimed to push his administration toward success. I'm about the age his mother would have been. Women of my age need to scold him just like his mother would if she were here.

My mother, who lived through the great depression and WWII reminded me today that one reason for the great economic recovery after WWII was the fact that, during the war, corporations were strongly discouraged from making excessive profits. Congress and Obama need to note that recovery came after excessive corporate profits were curtailed. We could learn from that experience in this recession.

Those of us who have lived longer should be listened to. Historians miss a lot because they never talk to many of the ordinary eyewitnesses to history but rather tend to focus on those they view as powerful decision-makers. Sometimes ordinary people have a view of history, especially economic history that is more valid than the perspective of the so-called experts. Obama should listen to some of the survivors of the Great Depression. They could set him straight about some things that Bernanke doesn't seem to understand.

[Cha]

49. Thanks for that..it is important

in a "media" controlled country that this is seen as a victory for Obama and a victory for us.

If this vote had gone the other way we can be sure that the blood sharks would be out in droves ready to grind their jaws.

[JDPriestly]

50. The final vote should already be over. I do question whether Obama

put enough pressure on Congress soon enough. There is so much to do. Energy independence should be the focus by this time. The health care bill took all together too long. It looks like Obama did not have a clear plan on health care before taking office. I wonder what his plans are for the environment and energy independence. I hope he and the Democrats in Congress have done some planning on their strategy to make progress in those areas without the public hesitancy.
A president should not be a dictator, but he should show leadership and be well organized. Obama has not successfully organized the health care reform effort. Still, I'm happy that something is finally moving on this agenda. As I said, it isn't what I hoped for, but if it helps the uninsured, that's a step in the right direction.

I'm kind of worried about what kinds of changes are being proposed for Medicare. Congress is very vague about it. I'm on Medicare. I can't afford to pay more than I already pay. I can't imagine how they plan to save money. My plan is about as efficient as a plan can get.

[Hippo_Tron]

51. Do you honestly believe that Obama didn't have a strategy for health care?

It could be argued that his strategy turned out to be very ineffective. But I would bet pretty much everything I have that Obama and the White House had a strategy.

[JDPriestly]

56. I honestly believe that Obama had no strategy on healthcare other

than the absurd notion that he would gather the insurance companies together and magically they would formulate an acceptable plan. That is what I think his "strategy" is and was. It's absurd. That nearly everyone will have some health care, some access to primary care is good. But there is not a word about increases in costs. The public option is closed to most people. What's public about that? It's a really bad result and it is Obama's fault.

When you want to win, you walk onto the field fighting and you fight from the first second of the game until you have won. Obama does not seem to understand that government needs to work the same way. I believe that when the Democratic candidates were asked to reveal their weaknesses, Obama said his was organizing his things, his office. That's for sure. He is a nice guy. That got him elected. But it won't govern the country.

[Cha]

57. Well, they have a strategy for everything.

[ClarkUSA]

46. Biden's right. He's also been a part of Team Obama's Senate arm-twisting, too.

That's one reason he was chosen to be VP, after all. Credit goes to all involved in the ongoing WH effort to pass HCR.

[freddie mertz]

53. He got all the Senators from his own caucus to vote to DEBATE on his signature bill..

That should have been a given.

[MadHound]

54. Handed Obama a "big victory", handed the insurance industry a mandated monopoly,

What are we the people getting handed? Oh, yeah, a big steaming pile of bullshit.

Sorry, but this reform, in its current incarnation, is nothing more than a giveaway to the insurance industry. Exclusionary and price control loopholes big enough to drive a truck through, a public option that is weak, priced higher than the private option, and administered by private insurance companies. Not to mention that it's looking likely that some form of the Stupak amendment will be included in whatever comes out of conference.

But hey, the Democrats, along with Obama, will achieve a "victory". Too bad they're going to screw over the rest of us to get it.

[LibDemAlways]

55. When the American people wake up and discover that they are now required

by law to part with their hard-earned dollars to purchase insurance from crooks who have more interest in denying their claims then paying their bills, there's going to be political hell to pay. And the R's will be standing back laughing and saying "Don't blame us. We voted against it." It's a big win-win for them. The insurance companies benefit and it will be widely (and rightfully) perceived as a Dem fuck-up.