International Socialist: Venezuelan democracy is threatened

[ChangoLoa]

The International Socialist unanimously approved a report submitted by an international mission of the organization that visited the country in January. The report condemns the "authoritarian regime established in Venezuela."

According to the document, which examines different aspects of the Venezuelan situation, Venezuela's democracy is threatened "by an authoritarian regime that uses shamelessly and regularly government institutions to put an end to democratic principles."

It added that the International Socialist needs to supports the different democratic sectors in Venezuela to restore civil liberties, democratic institutions and, therefore, the democratic system.

"Appropriation of the legislative framework (by the Executive Office) is a key element in the government's mechanism to ensure its own perpetuity in power."


http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/06/23/en_pol_esp_international-social_23A4075811.shtml

[hughee99]

1. Clearly, the International Socialist is a CIA front group.

:sarcasm:

[ChangoLoa]

15. As we can see...

When the Venezuelan Communist Party quits Chavez's coalition, there will still be some people here to say they've became part of the Imperialistic conspiracy.

[ck4829]

2. It's a catch-22, a large chunk of the established "opposition" is just as dangerous as Chavez

Death threats, violence, murder, destabilizing the economy, and even trying to scrap the Constitution when they briefly took over in a coup.

How can the Venezuelan people be free from both Chavez and his "opposition"?

[ChangoLoa]

5. At least half of the opposition today is composed by people who were with Chavez in 2002

The "opposition" is a highly heterogeneous group of people which goes from communists to demo-christians, the "chavismo" isn't.

[MyNameGoesHere]

3. You mean a Caracas newspaper is reporting

on something bad in Venezuela with no reference to the author or the report itself (International Socialist the organization has no such report, i checked)? Wow! Have they been thrown in jail yet? I have noticed that this particular "newspaper" hardly ever cites a "real" source and use a lot of anti-Chavez reports from dubious American organizations.

[ChangoLoa]

4. It's been months since the Socialist International has started being very critical of the Chavez gvt

Here's another news from april written in Ultimas Noticias which is a mildly chavista newspaper.

http://www.ultimasnoticias.com.ve/capriles/cadena-global/detalle.aspx?idart=2975484&idcat=56658&tipo=2

Do you speak Spanish?

Internacional Socialista pidió libertad de presos políticos en Venezuela/ SI asks for freedom to the political prisoners in Venezuela

El informe de la Comisión de la Internacional Socialista para América Latina y el Caribe que visitó nuestro país, en meses pasados, y que hizo un análisis general luego de las entrevistas sostenidas con los diversos sectores venezolanos, constituyó una acusación rotunda contra el gobierno de Chávez, al que define como "democradura".

El documento fue leído durante la reunión realizada en Buenos Aires los días 9 y 10 de abril, a la que asistieron por Venezuela Henry Ramos, Ricardo Gutiérrez, Timoteo Zambrano y Felipe Mujica; quienes denunciaron los atropellos que existen en el país contra la disidencia. Asimismo, relataron lo sucedido contra el dirigente político Oswaldo Alvarez Paz.

El Comité de la Internacional Socialista para América Latina y el Caribe aprobó una resolución en la que solicita, al Gobierno del presidente Hugo Chávez, "la libertad de los presos políticos, el regreso libre de los asilados y el cese a la criminalización de la acción política".
Calls for the freedom of the political prisoners, the return of the exiled ones and the end of the criminalization of the political activism

(Texto de la resolución)/ The resolution's text

Considerando:

Que los partidos venezolanos, AD, MAS, Podemos y UNT de manera reiterada han planteado antes las instancias de la IS, las permanentes violaciones a la constitución, la persecución y exilio de dirigentes políticos, la criminalización de la acción política y la violación permanente de los derechos humanos y políticos de los ciudadanos venezolanos.

1) Exigir el respeto de los derechos humanos. Pedir la libertad de los presos políticos y el regreso libre de los asilados y el cese a la criminalización de la acción política.

2) Insistir en el dialogo constructivo entre las partes en conflicto, en este sentido encomienda a Martín Torrijos, Presidente del Comité de la IS para América Latina y a Luis Ayala, Secretario General de la organización para que adelanten en Venezuela las gestiones necesarias para este fin.

[MyNameGoesHere]

6. I see it was from this meeting

In April and lo and behold attended by two known opposition party members.

A New Time Party, UNT Timoteo Zambrano Heliodoro Quintero known shills and connections to globalvision and this guy Heliodoro Quintero was in cahoots with Oil industry before it got taken over.

These guys are lucky, being part of a failed coup attempt would have landed them in jail in most other countries, or worse. But they are free to spout anything they want to. Not bad for a oppressive government huh?

I for one trust this news source a lot more than the undocumented ones from opposition run news in Caracas.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5261

Notice they list real sources and journalist.

[ChangoLoa]

11. Venezuelanalysis is an extension of the Venezuelan government an the heir of the VIO.

The link you sent is from a person who's directly employed by the Venezuelan government.

The Socialist International includes many many Venezuelan political parties and doesn't make statements unless the international platform approves them.

On edit: you were questioning the legitimacy of the news that the SI was strongly criticizing Chavez and now that you saw it was true you're questioning the legitimacy of the Socialist International... Sorry but I don't understand your argument.

[MyNameGoesHere]

29. Seriously

they have an agenda. You choose to use pro-opposition rags i choose to use pro-Chavez rags. I know the truth is somewhere in the middle and to believe otherwise is just not being truthful.

[ChangoLoa]

50. Somewhere in the middle, absolutely. nt

[spanza]

18. Venezuelanalysis?!?! Are you joking, with the head of Chavez in their front page until 1 month ago??

Are you serious???

:shrug:

[MyNameGoesHere]

28. Just as serious as using

pro-opposition rags

[spanza]

35. Right but this was no opinion piece. nt

[Unvanguard]

7. The Socialist International is international, but not socialist

and its Venezuela member party is anti-Chavez and has been for years.

[ChangoLoa]

13. There are many member parties. I consider European socialist parties to be socialist

Socialism and market economy are not incompatible.

[Better Believe It]

49. Like the ones that are supporting cuts in pensions and other benefits that working people and the

elderly have?

Those "socialists" who are generally called social democrats?

Tony Blair's kind of socialists?

[ChangoLoa]

51. No. Like the ones who created the pensions, social benefits and healthcare systems across Europe

Pepe Mujica, Gaitán, Ortega, Mitterrand, Zapatero, Barak, Blair, Jospin, Allende, Schröder, Betancourt, Brandt and many many more... a very diverse group to say the least. There's a whole world outside Anglomerica...

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Unvanguard]

9. I'm pretty sure they're referring to the Socialist International.

Bad translation.

[MyNameGoesHere]

10. I would suggest bad

journalism. The actual report can be found id one searches and it is nowhere as scathing as this rag reports. And much to my surprise (ok not really) no mention at this meeting of ANY, ANY Colombian human rights violations. I guess those people in Colombia just don't deserve a report. Or maybe it's the 600 million in aid, 30% going to the paramilitary that hides the story.

[ChangoLoa]

14. The SI Colombian party is the Polo Democratico which has always been Uribe's worst enemy. nt

[MyNameGoesHere]

30. Uh you mean the PLC?

http://www.socialistinternational.org/viewArticle.cfm?ArticlePageID=931

Yes I see everyday that they are releasing reports on paramilitary atrocities. Hold on let me pull up a few...... oh that was quick.

[ChangoLoa]

12. LOL. You don't know the Socialist International?!

... you should ask what it is or go to the wikipedia before commenting.


On edit: The Socialist International is "Trokskyite" you say?! Is half Europe governed by "Trokskyites"?!?!
Are this kind of conceptual aberrations normal for an American "leftist"?

Why do you hate "Trokskyites" so much? Because they opposed Stalin maybe?

[ChangoLoa]

16. Member parties of the Socialist International

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International

[spanza]

17. This is the result of a mission made by the French, Argentinian, Spanish socialist parties' members

And even more other countries' socialist parties: France, Argentina, Dominican Republic, Greece, Spain and the General Secretary of the Socialist International

A Mission of the Socialist International is visiting Caracas from 20 to 23 January where it will hold a wide-ranging programme of meetings and discussions with a variety of political actors and civil society organizations of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

The Mission is formed by Luis Ayala, Secretary General of Socialist International; Peggy Cabral of the Dominican Revolutionary Party, Dominican Republic; Renée Fregosi of the Socialist Party of France; Paulina Lampsa of the Panhellenic Socialist Movement of Greece; Emilio Menéndez del Valle of the Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party and Jesús Rodríguez of the Radical Civic Union of Argentina.

Missions of the Socialist International, the worldwide organization that brings together 170 social democratic, socialist and labour parties and organizations from all continents, regularly visit different regions of the world, carrying out the organization’s activities in favour of cooperation and dialog, democracy, the resolution of conflict and peace.

In Caracas, the activities of the members of the Mission include meetings with representatives of political parties, trade unions, student organizations, of university, industry and Church institutions, media and communications, human rights organizations and other civil society institutions in Venezuela.


http://socialistinternational.org/viewArticle.cfm?ArticleID=2047



It's interesting to see the huge difference between Venezuelan, Latin american, European socialists and some posters in DU who clearly have a very blurry notion of socialism, internationalism, Chavez and Venezuela. How would they like to hear the constant "Fatherland, Socialism or Death" chavista slogan in their own country? Would they like to see their Govt call for the creation of huge militias under the direct control of their president? What about making lists of 4 million opponents to the regime, firing many of them from the administration and closing all future public employment to them?

They clearly have no clue of what's happening in Venezuela.

[The Magistrate]

20. As The Man said, Sir: 'Revolution Is Not a Tea-Party'....

There has long been a split in the Socialist movement between revolutionists and reformists: each can be counted on to criticize the other strenuously.

[spanza]

21. Indeed, Sir

But most socialists have learned that revolution inevitably leads to counter-revolution. As we can see today in Venezuela, in my opinion. Haven't you asked yourself why is Chavez only surrounded by people from the army nowadays? Why do we have so many colonels and lieutenants as ministers?

Have you heard from our old friend Saturn here?

[The Magistrate]

24. Of Course Revolution Leads To Counter-Revolution, Sir

And efforts at reform lead to gains that are periodically rolled back by the need for 'austerity' when the wealthy have created an economic crisis which amounts to the stealing of the savings the people have accumulated during what they thought was a lasting prosperity. Each method of seeking change has its drawbacks....

The more primitive the economic and political life of a society is, Sir, the greater the likelihood military figures will be the leaders of movements either for reform or revolution. You will find this illustrated in Europe in the nineteenth century and in Asia well into the twentieth century. Spanish society was particularly marked by this, and seems to have left its mark on its former colonies.

[spanza]

25. Sir, my point is precisely that Chavez himself is the counter-revolution.

He opened a pandora box he's not able to assume anymore. The revolution cannot depend on a person nor be pursued without debate. It is becoming a very reactionary regime. By the way, I don't consider the political life of the Venezuelan society to be as primitive as you seem to insinuate. Did I misread?

[The Magistrate]

26. If He is The Counter-Revolution, Sir, What, Then, Was the Revolution?

Counter-revolution is the effort of those who will be stripped of property and wealth by revolution to resist the loss, and maintain their station.

It is certainly true that some who consolidate a revolution do so in a way that simply sets up a new elite comprising the revolution's leading cliques, and it is certainly possible the regime of Col. Chavez may degenerate into this sort of 'Peronism' in time. It is hard to make that judgement, however, so long as the forces of right reaction are in full bay against him in the service of counter-revolution by the propertied elite. Failure, remember, is always an option, so long as human wills are in contest with one another.

Economic and political life in Venezuela has been lain closer to feudal characteristics than to bourgeois developments. Land has been highly concentrated, wealth highly concentrated, resource extraction paramount. Military force has been often in the fore of political life, both in a progressive and a reactionary direction. Even the great President Betancourt first came to power in a coup.

[spanza]

36. Land in Venezuela has been highly concentrated in the hands of the State, Sir.

Since the late 30's. A State-centered oil economy cannot possibly function as a feudal society. The agriculture in Venezuela gives no economic nor political power. 93% of our people are urban while the main employer is the public administration. Our country's socio political dynamics are "clientelist" and almost all economic activity evolves around the State's finances (oil revenues).

I would dare saying that there has been no oligarchy in Venezuela since the federal war in the late 1850's. What we see is a succession of nomenclatures. All of them have come from the revolutionary movements that have managed to take power. No conservative party neither, even demo-christians are socio-christians. At the opposite of Colombia where the same families have kept power since the Independence, Venezuelan rich families have poor, "racially" mixed origins. They were usually opportunists or helped by the meritocratic system that died in the 80's. Look at our presidents since the democracy started in 1958, none of them comes from the high class.

We have a rich class which benefits from its vicinity to the State. But this class changes when the power equilibrium changes and chavista bourgeoisie holds the economy nowadays almost like the adecos, copeyanos and their clients did before them. I don't see the revolution is going anywhere. In my opinion, there's a bunch of people trying to consolidate their personal power though. After the (still) non reversed IMF reform of 1989, the level of exclusion is still a lot higher than during our "progressive golden age" of the 60's-70's.

[The Magistrate]

37. And the State, Sir, Is The Creature Of Oligarchs

Various military leaders have either been their tools, or created their own, which in turn outlasted them, as in the vase of President Gomez. It is not a question of class origin, but of whose interest is served. The hiring of segments of the poor to control the rest is old ruling wisdom.

What makes the basic pattern of Venezuelan economics and society and politics is the concentration of wealth, and the effective private control of state power this conveys. The essence of feudalism is not an agricultural economy, but one where private persons wield state power more or less openly. An economy based on extractive resources is very well suited to such an order.

[spanza]

43. Sir, if you call them oligarchs, call them oligarchs all of them. Even the present ones.

The State is still the creatures of oligarchs. We just have new oligarchs. Where's the "revolution" at that level? Almost the same logic applied with (some) different people.

[The Magistrate]

45. That May Wind Up the Outcome, Sir

The jury is still out on that question.

It is demonstrated fact that those who previously benefited most from the situation are bitter opponents of Col. Chavez, and are fighting hard to preserve their accustomed prerogatives.

[spanza]

47. I believe only chavistas can have "accustomed prerogatives" in today's Venezuela

There's almost no economy outside the State, Sir.

[LoZoccolo]

19. I'd be curious as to what sort of evidence Chavez supporters would accept...

...as establishing Chavez as undemocratic and disrespectful of civil liberties. Is there anything that would convince you of this, if someone were to present it to you?

[spanza]

22. Not even the list of the 4 million opponents banned from public employment

I've seen this with great sadness.

[The Magistrate]

23. That Is Not The Question, Sir

There are considerations of setting, and of degree.

Col. Chavez is engaged in a revolutionary endeavor. All such are opposed by counter-revolution, since persons possessed of much property and hence wealth and influence, will necessarily be disadvantaged by a revolutionary change, and their resistance is understandable.

Thus the situation is not one of normal civil peace and order, but one of civil conflict pitched at various intensities, and the actions of parties involved should not be judged by the standards of civil peace and order, but by the standards of civil conflict between a revolutionary leadership and a propertied class.

By these standards, Col. Chavez is playing with kid gloves. His opponents are not shot, they are not disappeared; they are on occasion arrested, their lives are made difficult by police harassment. This is most likely due to sensible political calculation on the part of Col. Chavez, rather than to any particular squeamishness or high moral character; the man was trained in psychological warfare particularly, and the gist of such training will always contain admonitions to that generally speaking the less violence the more secure the future of a victory.

[LoZoccolo]

27. It's my question.

The sort of tactics that you describe as justifiable could just as likely be used to bring about fascism as they could to bring about socialism or whatever people say he's eventually trying to put together, and thus leave him open to criticism about his true intentions. I will give you credit for at least not trying to gloss over it.

[Braulio]

62. Revolutionary leadership and a propertied class

I guess this is the problem, the communists think they're engaged in a revolution, and anything goes - democracy isn't part of the equation unless they have the numbers and the advantage, if they don't, then democracy, a free press, etc, aren't useful, and they can be tossed away. And you wonder why people consider communism to be something similar to cancer.

[Greyhound]

31. Undemocratic? None, because that charge is proven false.

He was elected and re-elected in some of the cleanest elections held on earth.

As for disrespectful of civil liberties; That's not even a charge, but he is not perfect and has undertaken an enormous task, so it is inevitable that the wrong has been done in specific cases, but this is not one.

[LoZoccolo]

33. I'm not asking if it's true or false, but whether or not it's /falsifiable/ to you.

What could he do such that you would then think "OK, he is not a good guy". I don't think that many of his supporters here have thought that through, so as he takes more and more of these measures, they go along with him, not really knowing where he might go next or whether or not it is still worth it.

[Catherina]

32. Surely you jest. "Socialist International" What a fine grouping of neoliberals

It's about as progressive as the DLC's Progressive Policy Institute.

An ahem *socialist* organization presided by the likes of

Prominent SI member parties include:

• Britain’s Labour Party (Gordon Brown, Prime Minister),

• Australia’s Labour Party (Kevin Rudd, Prime Minister),

• Egypt’s National Democratic Party (Hosni Mubarak, President).

• The Israeli Labour Party, with Ehud Barak at its head, is a member.

Come on.

Who are they trying to kid here? If you think socialism supports free market policies like deregulation, privatization, liberalization and financialization then these guys are for you.

These people aren't pushing for socialism in it's true form, Democratic Socialism as Marx envisioned it where property is owned and controlled by the proletariat.

Socialist International is neoliberal and supports a more strongly state-regulated economy. They are a part of the capitalist system, and accept the system, they are not fighting for replacing it with socialism.

It's shouldn's surprise anyone that they can't stand Chavez or anyone else who supports Democratic Socialism.

Michael Harrington, the US leader of Socialist International, was a vehement antiCommunist who spoke actively in favor of the Vietnam War. Arthur M. Schlesinger Sr. referred to Harrington as the "only responsible radical" in America.

§ In 1964 he joined the Democratic Party establishment in favoring a compromise that would give two nonvoting seats to the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party while seating the white-only delegation at the Democratic convention. Since the expulsion of the segregationist Democrats would have achieved the very "political realignment" that Michael preached, the compromise was denounced bitterly as a sellout by civil rights activists.

§ From 1965 on, according to Isserman, Michael and his comrades "established the reputation...as a group that had little to offer to the cause of peace in Vietnam--little that is, except for criticisms of those who were actually trying to stop the war." SDS leader Carl Oglesby said that while he originally admired Harrington and Howe, "here were these guys...denouncing me as a Red because I wouldn't criticize both sides equally--which seemed bullshit because both sides weren't invading each other equally, weren't napalming each other equally."

§ While Michael occasionally criticized the Vietnam War in editorials, he didn't make a public speech against it until 1969, when Richard Nixon was in the White House instead of Michael's Democratic labor allies.

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2008w52/msg00129.htm

Need you know more?


The absence of real Socialists or Communists on their panel is the first clue.

[spanza]

34. The Socialist International is not "neoliberal" nor homogeneous

What I see is that France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Scandinavian countries have reached the fairest, most protective and progressive levels of social organization in the planet thanks to parties which are in the Socialist International. You can argue about Blair's Britain and Ehud Barak's ministry in Israel and I would agree, but the SI is not a homogeneous political party. From there to say the SI is a neoliberal forum, the argument becomes completely irrational. Redistribution, strong regulations and full social protection can perfectly coexist with a market economy.

Socialists have never been communists. Only reactionary far right (or far left) would assimilate both. Saint-Simon, Leroux, Owen... 30 years before Marx.

[Catherina]

39. Suit yourself Spanza. SI is about as Socialist as Obama

Come to think of it, several of Obama's people are members of the SI.

You sound very much like a supporter of Acción Democrática, the neoliberal Venezuelan members of Socialist International that ruled Venezuela for most of the 50 years before Chavez. Didn't do such a good job did it for the poor to rise up against it and side with Chavez?

Socialist International is so NOT socialist that it's one of the few "socialist" parties the U.S. backed in Latin America during the cold war and still today, backs against Chavez' democratic socialism.

Socialist International is to socialism what the DLC is to Democrats. Pretty words on paper but they ally themselves with the Christian Democrats and anyone to the right who needs them.

In the US, the SI is about as far left, in words on paper, as the goverment will tolerate but it's not socialism.

Remind everyone please how Tony Blair, neoliberal extraordinaire, was the vice president of the Socialist International. Another illustrious one is Jalal Talbani who killed thousands of innocent Kurds during his mini-civil war with Barzani in the 1990s.

British Labour Party
Walid Jumblat's ethnocentric sectarian party in Lebanon
Panama's corrupt neo-liberal PRD that's a member of the Socialist International
Greek President Papandreou who acquiesced in the financial cave-in to the banks despite being head of the Socialist International
Northern Ireland's SDLP, an Irish nationalist party with no socialist content whatsover
Carlos Andrés Pérez, past CORRUPT president of Venezuela whom Chavez led his 1992 coup against

Please. If there were anything socialist about this movement, Fidel Castro, Evo Morales, Lula da Silva would be a prominent members. Couple that with the anti-Chavez and anti-Allende position of this movement and things become very clear, very quickly.

But keep pushing the anti-Chavez stuff. You're fun to watch.

Long live Chavez. Long live the Bolivarian Revolution. Chavez, Fidel y el Che!

[spanza]

41. Hahah Too good! Thanks for the fun.

But shamefully you got it all wrong. Especially when you try yo guess what my political opinions are. I won't even comment on that, not to you.

What you're trying to describe is based on pure misconceptions. Do you think Ortega's FSLN, which belongs to the SI, is a neoliberal© party too? Are Pepe Mujica and Lula (check his coalition) part of the imperialists' plan? On the other hand, concerning the "anti-Allende" line, I'd suggest you try to avoid making up that kind of cheap stuff. His party too was part of the Socialist International. Him and his Socialist Party of Chile were the first victims of the 1973 coup. But I think you know that. I imagine you consider Pinochet should have been taken out by armed action, I imagine you think that the option existed. A naive idea, an exotic luxury only outsiders from the north can have.

I don't know who put in your head the idea that the SI was a political party but you should keep it, it's part of the fun. Because anyway, in your far-left© conception, only communists or ultra radicals can be called real socialists making real socialism. The glorious end justifies all means so you're able to reinvent stories like you just did with Allende. It's pointless to discuss this argument with a person having so little decency and knowledge about it.

You sound like those countrymen of yours claiming communism is the worst thing on earth because Stalin and Pol Pot were communists©. So suit yourself with your own logic, Catherina.

[ChangoLoa]

52. Good to see some hard facts and common sense Spanza.

Worshipers are hypocrites living in a herd. They'll never move. After 12 years of "revolution", I've come to understand there's nothing revolutionary about supporting an established system of power.

Viva Ñañañé Ngué Ayé Niam Niam!!!

[Braulio]

61. I think communists disguise themselves as socialists

There are socialists, and there are communists. People like Noriega, Castro, Chavez, are communists. They don't like to say this openly because people see communism in such a bad light. So they cover it up. I wouldn't vote for anything close to socialist for this reason...they like to cover up what they are, and they're also very keen on perpetuating themselves in power - the first thing they try to do is change the constitution to allow themselves to be "re-elected" over and over. It's cheap personality cult, megalomania, dictatorship, and lousy ecoomic management rolled into one package, with the addition of militarism, threats towards neighbors, insults towards anybody who doesn't agree with them. They are pretty sick regimes.

[murdoch]

38. The history of the Socialist International

The right-wing of the world's socialist parties all signed on to World War I. The left wing of the socialist parties worldwide were anti-war.

The remnants of these groups reformed after World War II so as to endorse colonial/imperialist wars. It's funny that these parties, which all decided to declare war on one another, and whose members were killing one another, reformed in the name of "socialist brotherhood". They supported the French intervention in Vietnam, and then the American. And so on and so forth.

This just continues their nonsense. What has the so-called Socialist International done that has been in the news in the past decades even? This is all they do.

Hitler's party decided to call themselves socialists to, National Socialists. Anyone can stick the word socialist into their organizations name. It means nothing.

[Catherina]

40. Thank you Murdoch

The Socialist International spent more time fighting communism than introducing genuine economic democracy. Everything Allende tried to change in Chile, there they were blocking his way.

Thanks for your post. That was excellent.

[ChangoLoa]

48. Allende's party was IN the Socialist International. You clearly are misinformed. nt

[Catherina]

53. I'm sorry, You are totally incorrect. Chile became part of SI AFTER Allende

Allende was a MARXIST. He headed the "Popular Unity" which was a Socialist-Communist coalition government. You are clearly twisting things in your anti-Chavez zeal.

Allende was the head of the Partido Socialista de Chile (PS). PS didn't become part of Socialist International until it joined with the PPD after the Allende years. You do not get to claim the man.

Socialist International was founded by European leaders. "Until its 1976 Geneva Congress, the Socialist International had few members outside Europe and no formal involvement with Latin America". Pinochet's coup against Allende was in 1973. Explain to me again how the Marxist Allende was part of Socialist International?

SI is full of pro-imperialist parties, like Tony Blair’s New Labour. Their objective isn't suppressing capitalism or enabling the socialist transformation of society, but rather the ’social’ management of neoliberal capitalism.

All anyone needs to do is look at the list of Socialist International members to understand what the organization is about. Angela Merkel? Tony Blair? Ehud Barak? No Fidel Castro or other Marxist? You and Spanza have quite a sense of humor.

[The Magistrate]

56. To Be fair, Ma'am, this Member Is Honest In His Presentments

He is of the view that socialism and a market economy are not incompatible. Many parties in this 'international' certainly stand for tempering capitalist excess with measures that amount to redistribution, if not actual check on the unfettered rights of property in business.

[ChangoLoa]

58. Reformist socialism is not the enemy of revolutionary socialism but unfortunately

some/many revolutionary parties tend to behave as the reaction wants them to by looking down at reformists as if they were traitors. Talking about a revolution, Sir, I consider that every progressive process needs constant reform in order to survive. You know there's no magic. Real socialism talks about long term dynamics of deep social and personal transformation. Not about uncontested leadership.

[ChangoLoa]

57. You're right, they entered in 1976.

I thought they were members before that, my mistake.

But please don't go as far as including Angela Merkel's party in the SI. I'll follow your quote:

"Until its 1976 Geneva Congress, the Socialist International had few members outside Europe and no formal involvement with Latin America<1>. In the 1980s, most SI parties gave their backing to the Nicaraguan Sandinistas (FSLN), whose left-wing government had incited enmity from the United States.

Since then, the SI has admitted as member-parties not only the FSLN but also the centre-left Puerto Rican Independence Party, as well as the ex-Communist parties such as the Italian Democrats of the Left (Democratici di Sinistra (DS)) and the Front for the Liberation of Mozambique (FRELIMO)."

A simple reminder of the necessity of some nuance in the projection of the SI as a "party" and an instrument of the pro-imperialists:

Countries governed by an SI member or consultative parties (as of August 2008)

[spanza]

42. You're not telling the history of the Socialist International as you're pretending. And you know it.

You're saying Allende was a nazi supporting the Vietnam war. You're making up stuff.

[Catherina]

54. That's what you got out of that? Ok. That explains how your information process n/t

[ChangoLoa]

60. So you actually agree that the Socialist International supported the US war in Vietnam

You know that's false, right?

I think you consider only marxists can be socialists...?

[TexasObserver]

44. "The International Socialist ... condemns the 'authoritarian regime established in Venezuela.'"

Thanks for the information.

Venezuela's democracy is threatened "by an authoritarian regime that uses shamelessly and regularly government institutions to put an end to democratic principles."

[Braulio]

59. Sure looks like an authoritarian regime

I speak Spanish, and I've been watching some of what Chavez says on youtube. It shows the guy runs the government like his private fiefdom. He's also prone to talk like a gang member. Lots of calling out the opposition for a fight, threats, orders people sent to jail openly while on national TV. The guy reminds me of Roman Emperor Nero.

[The Magistrate]

46. You Are, Sir, Stepping Into A Left Faction Fight Here

Have a care until you have sussed out the local geography....

[Catherina]

55. Wise words indeed.

Your knowledge is impressive. :thumbsup: