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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 01:55 PM
Original message
A little help with this calculation.
It occurred to me that the right wing has all these (mostly fake) numbers about the cost to them that undocumented workers represent. I'd like to know how much it costs American taxpayers to drive working people out of their homes and to the north.

What else should be figured in besides "military aid", funds for the "war on drugs", USAID (NED) and the cost of our bases?

I'd really like to come as close to a hard number as possible. What am I overlooking? It feels like a lot.

TIA and TGIF!

:hi:
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Several Brazilians?



lol

:hi:

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Glove?


lol

:hi:
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's even the contrary.
The US economy is gaining money from the illegal immigration. When they calculate the cost the "illegal aliens*" represent, they forget to mention the taxed wealth they produce and the consumption of their wages.

Let's try to calculate how much money they create for the American economy instead.

* Oh how could we definitely bury this extremist expression?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Yes, of course undocumented workers are a gain here.
Edited on Fri May-21-10 02:19 PM by EFerrari
But most people don't understand, for example, how they are paying to drive people out of their homes to come here. Like the "military aid" we give Peru to oppress their own people. Like the money spent in Colombia for the same purpose. Like the cost of the base in Honduras that underpins the power of the state there, a state which is killing its own citizens.

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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The ironic part of it
is that many undocumented workers go to the US as cheap labor for the already subsidized agro-industrial sector that's undermining the chances of an equilibrated development in all the region. It's a vicious circle... or a virtuous circle depending from what angle you see it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. That's a very good point. n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm not sure this would enter into it, but U.S. subsidized crops, like corn,
rice, sugar, etc. are of course financially supported and paid for here in the U.S. to the humongous food growing operations here, then they are used to FLOOD Mexico's markets and they sell there at prices which are then lower than anything the Mexican food producers can manage. They CAN'T AFFORD to grow those products any more and they go bankrupt. They have to leave the very land their families have lived on forever, they have to move away, they have to find other kinds of work, all people who have been working on farms in Mexico for the domestic farm operators are out of business.

There has been a devastating collapse of domestically grown corn, rice, sugar, etc. markets, and all those people are ruined.

This is accomplished with subsidies paid for HERE by the U.S. taxpayers already, in order to destroy their own natural markets and superimpose "ours."

Then the same country which has destroyed the ability of the people to find work in their own country gets hostile because these new poor are begging for work HERE.

Hateful, hateful, hateful.

Don't know where to go look for figures, but the information about destroying the Mexican food producing economy is all over the place and I can easily go get some articles to discuss that ignored, and denied bit of reality.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Maybe corn subsidies? That's a number that can be isolated, I think!
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Here's a very quick example from 2003, and I can look for more current figures:
US Corn Subsidies Are Devastating Mexican Farmers
OXFAM REPORT:
U.S AGRICULTURAL POLICIES
DESTROYING LIVELIHOODS OF MILLIONS
OF SMALL MEXICAN CORN FARMERS

ELIZABETH BECKER, NEW UORK TIMES: The more than $10 billion that American taxpayers give corn farmers every year in agricultural subsidies has helped destroy the livelihoods of millions of small Mexican farmers, according to a report released on August 27.

Prepared in advance of critical trade talks next month, the report by Oxfam International argues that the subsidies given American corn farmers allow them to sell their grain at prices far below what it costs to produce. That has led to cheap American corn flooding the Mexican market and pushing the poorest Mexican farmers out of business, the report said.

"There is a direct link between government agricultural policies in the U.S.. and rural misery in Mexico," according to the report entitled, "Dumping Without Borders: How U.S. agricultural policies are destroying the livelihoods of Mexican corn farmers."

More:
http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/corn_subsidies.cfm

~~~~~

May 05, 2010
How NAFTA Produced Mexican Migration

Mexico lost a million jobs, by the government's own count, in 1995. That experience was repeated in 2000–2001, when recession in the United States, and the decline in consumer purchasing, led to the layoff of over four hundred thousand workers in the maquiladoras. NAFTA became an accelerant, pouring gasoline on the fire of economic reform.

Instead of creating prosperity, it displaced workers and farmers at an ever greater rate.

The economic reform process required the Mexican government to dissolve the CONASUPO stores. Mexican subsidies to farmers were ruled illegal, although the U.S. continued paying huge subsidies to its largest growers under the provisions of the U.S. farm bill, while buying enormous quantities of farm commodities. At the same time, CONASUPO's state-run stores were held a barrier to the entry of private companies into the retail grocery business.

The ability of U.S. producers to grow corn cheaply using intensive industrial methods affected Mexican growers long before NAFTA. In the 1980s Mexico became a corn importer, and according to Sandoval, large farmers switched to other crops when they couldn't compete with U.S. grain dumping. But with no price supports, hundreds of thousands of small farmers found it impossible to sell corn or other farm products for what it cost to produce them. And when NAFTA pulled down customs barriers, large U.S. corporations dumped even more agricultural products on the Mexican market. Rural families went hungry when they couldn't find buyers for what they'd grown. It's no accident that the Zapatista National Liberation Army, based in poor indigenous communities in Mexico's southernmost state, Chiapas, planned the beginning of an armed rebellion for the day NAFTA took effect. The Zapatistas knew what would happen to indigenous communities in the southern countryside. And the final elimination of tariffs on white corn, beans, and other farm goods on January 1, 2008—the implementation of NAFTA's final chapter—was greeted by demonstrations across Mexico.

Mexico couldn't protect its own agriculture from the fluctuations of the world market. A global coffee glut in the 1990s plunged prices below the cost of production. A less entrapped government might have bought the crops of Veracruz farmers to keep them afloat, or provided subsidies for other crops. But once free market strictures were in place, those farmers paid the price instead. Veracruz campesinos joined the stream of workers headed for the Smithfield plant in North Carolina and points beyond.

Poor people in the cities fared no better. Although a flood of cheap U.S. grain was supposed to make consumer prices go down, the opposite occurred. With the end of CONASUPO and price controls, the price of tortillas more than doubled in the years that followed. Higher prices intensified urban poverty, increasing the pressure to migrate. One company, Grupo Maseca, monopolized tortilla production. On its board of directors are Federico Gorbea Quintero, president of Archer Daniels Midland México, and Ismael Roig, ADM's vice president for planning and business development. (ADM is one of the United States' largest corn producers and processors.) Carlos Hank Rhon, whose family formerly controlled CONASUPO, is now also a Grupo Maseca director. Meanwhile, Wal-Mart has become Mexico's largest retailer.

More:
http://www.beaconbroadside.com/broadside/2010/05/how-nafta-produced-migration.html

~~~~~

U.S. Imports Bury Family Farms
TIM WEINER / New York Times 26feb02
MANZANILLO, Mexico -- For many generations, corn has been the sacred center of civilization in Mexico, the place where the grain was first cultivated some 5,000 years ago.

Gods and goddesses of corn filled the dreams and visions of the great civilizations that rose and fell here before the Spaniards came five centuries ago. Today the corn tortilla is consumed at almost every meal. Among the poor, sometimes it is the entire meal.

But the modern world is closing in on the little patch of maize, known as the milpa, that has sustained millions of Mexicans through the centuries. The powerful force of American agribusiness, unleashed in Mexico by the North American Free Trade Agreement, may doom the growing of corn as a way of life for family farmers here, agronomists and economists say.

Lorenzo Rebollo, a 53-year-old dirt farmer, works two and a half acres of corn and beans here on the slopes of the eastern state of Michoacán, in Mexico's central highlands, where corn was first grown as a food crop, archaeologists say. Mr. Rebollo is one of about 3 million Mexicans who farm corn and support roughly 15 million family members.

His grown sons have left for the United States to make a living, and Mr. Rebollo says he may be the last man to farm this patch of earth. It is the same story all over Mexico: thousands of farmers pulling up stakes every year, heading for Mexico City or the United States. Some grew coffee or cut sugar cane. But most grew corn.

Roughly a quarter of the corn in Mexico is now imported from the United States. Men like Mr. Rebollo cannot compete against the mechanized, subsidized giants of American agriculture.

"Corn growing has basically collapsed in Mexico," Carlos Heredia Zubieta, an economist and a member of Mexico's Congress, said in a recent speech to an American audience. "The flood of imports of basic grains has ravaged the countryside, so the corn growers are here instead of working in the fields."

The facts are stark. Since Nafta took effect eight years ago, imports of corn to Mexico from the United States have increased nearly eighteenfold, according to the United States Department of Agriculture. The imports will probably keep growing for the next six years as the final phases of Nafta take effect.

In the United States, corn growers receive billions of dollars a year in subsidies from Congress, much of it going to huge agribusiness operations. That policy fuels huge surpluses and pushes corn prices down.

Free trade and Mexico's own farm policies "threaten the ability of Mexican farmers to continue to grow corn," said Alejandro Nadal, a professor at the Colegio de México and the author of a study on the issue.

In Mexico, Nafta did away with many traditional subsidies and generous price supports. Some contend it is doing away with small farmers. About 90 percent of Mexico's corn farmers work fields of five acres or less, and their survival instincts are driving them farther and farther up Mexico's mountainsides as they strive to grow enough to get by.

"We work the land all our lives," Mr. Rebollo said. "But the farmers are growing more and getting less."

More:
http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Corn-Subsidized-Imports26feb02.htm

~~~~~

2007–2008 world food price crisis

~snip~
Agricultural subsidies

The global food crisis has renewed calls for removal of distorting agricultural subsidies in developed countries.<57> Support to farmers in OECD countries totals 280 billion USD annually, which compares to official development assistance of just 80 billion USD in 2004, and farm support distorts food prices leading to higher global food prices, according to OECD estimates.<58> The US Farm Bill brought in by the Bush Administration in 2002 increased agricultural subsidies by 80% and cost the US taxpayer 190 billion USD..<59> In 2003, the EU agreed to extend the Common Agricultural Policy until 2013. Former UNDP Administrator Malloch Brown renewed calls for reform of the farm subsidies such as the CAP.<60>

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_world_food_price_crisis#Agricultural_subsidies

As something to remember for later, see this grotesque aspect of our subsidy program from the Wiki article:
Distorted global rice market
Japan is forced to import more than 767,000 tons of rice annually from the United States, Thailand, and other countries due to WTO rules. This is despite the fact that Japan produces over 100% of domestic rice consumption needs with 11 million tonnes produced in 2005 while 8.7 million tonnes were consumed in 2003–2004 period. Japan is not allowed to re-export this rice to other countries without approval. This rice is generally left to rot and then used for animal feed. Under pressure, the United States and Japan are poised to strike a deal to remove such restrictions. It is expected 1.5 million tonnes of high-grade American rice will enter the market soon.<6>
Unbelievable!

~~~~~

Obama’s Farm Subsidy Cuts Meet Stiff Resistance
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN

WASHINGTON — Among the audacious proposals in President Obama’s budget was a plan to save more than $9.7 billion over a decade by putting strict limits on farm subsidies that are disbursed regardless of market conditions or even whether the land is actively farmed.

But Mr. Obama’s grand ambitions have run into political reality.

The budget outlines approved by the House and Senate on Thursday night do not include limits on farm subsidies at all, and even champions of change say that if the president’s plan can be revived, it will have to be scaled back so significantly that the savings could amount to just several hundred million dollars.

Some of the fiercest critics of farm subsidy programs say the new administration overreached in offering a proposal that could have cut off payment not just to large corporate agribusinesses, but also to medium-sized family farms that might not even be profitable, setting off a huge alarm in the powerful farm lobby.

The White House plan would have prohibited so-called direct payments to farms whose annual gross receipts exceeded $500,000 — a large sum on the surface, but one that did not take account of whether those receipts yielded any real profits.

Within days, the National Farmers Union, which represents roughly 250,000 farm families, forcefully denounced the president’s plan and urged Congress to oppose it. The group’s board also raised the issue at a meeting with officials at the White House

While Mr. Obama’s Democratic allies on Capitol Hill adopted much of his budget template, the farm subsidy limits never got off the ground.

In the House, farm-state lawmakers told the Budget Committee chairman, Representative John M. Spratt Jr., Democrat of South Carolina, that they would not support any budget plan that tinkered with hard-fought agreements they struck in passing last year’s omnibus farm bill.

And in the Senate, Kent Conrad, Democrat of North Dakota, chairman of the Budget Committee and an ardent defender of agricultural interests in his state, quickly discarded the president’s proposal.

Even some of the toughest critics of farm subsidies would not endorse the president’s approach.

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/us/politics/04farm.html
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Excellent! Thank you so much, Judi Lynn!
:hi:
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. "Corn Subsidies** in the United States totaled $73.8 billion from 1995-2009."
Edited on Fri May-21-10 03:01 PM by Judi Lynn
Here's a chart for corn subsidies for each year from 1995 to 2009:
http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=corn

Adding:
Rice Subsidies** in the United States totaled $12.6 billion from 1995-2009.
http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=rice
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Holy guacamole, that's a LOT of money!
:wow:

Thank you for the link, Judi.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Rice subsidies. plus tax breaks for foreign investment.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Mexico and Central America are loosing their most "productive" young people
entering as a gift to produce wealth in the US and still the US spits on them.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Exactly. n/t
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I think it's inaccurate to say "the US spits on them."
The corpo-fascist press promulgates a mean-spirited minority and their blatant racism against the brown, in an effort to "divide and conquer"--to pit one workforce and one poor population against the another workforce and poor population. Try to get the poor at each other's throats, and stoke up hatred of WHATEVER KIND (against gays, against blacks, against "liberals," against "welfare queens," against "Arabs," against liberated women, and right now against Latino browns), to BENEFIT THE RICH AND THE CORPORATE. I DON'T BELIEVE that most Americans "spit on" undocumented workers or brown people. Hell, in CalIfornia, half the people ARE Latino brown people. I don't deny that there is racism, and that it can be horrid and violent, Lord knows. But I strongly believe that most Americans are not racists and hold no grudge against undocumented workers. This is A TACTIC of the RIGHTWING in service to our corporate rulers who are "laughing all the way to their foreign bank accounts."
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. The owner/investor class vs. labor.
The pitting of worker against worker is stagecraft perpetrated by the ownership/investor classes.
The owner/investor class are like bank robbers who create distraction to pull off the heist.









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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yup! A very good analogy--bank robbers creating a distraction.
What the corpo-fascist establishment and their toady press are doing is OVERRIDING the will of the American people--on every front, from horribly unjust war to the outsourcing of American manufacturing to bankster bailouts and tax cuts for the rich. Everywhere you look, the majority has been OVERRULED. The most telling example is the invasion of Iraq, with nearly 60% of Americans opposed to it (Feb '03, all polls). This is called fascism, and the manifestation of it we are seeing now is corpo-fascism (rule by multinational corporations). Fascism requires scapegoats. We've seen the corpo-fascists create several of them. Now it's "illegal immigrants." In a country with our great progressive traditions, a country whose very signature--its most important achievement--is TOLERANCE in a fabulously multicultural society--it takes much planning to try to pit essentially peaceful people against each other. And it takes mechanisms like corporate control of the vote counting with 'TRADE SECRET' programming code and virtually no audit/recount controls, which we find everywhere now in the U.S. (fast-tracked across the country during the 2002 to 2004 period). Along with mechanisms for overriding the will of the people, there is the false narrative of events to accompany it, enforced by corporate monopolies over the major media--TV, radio, newspapers, which all sound the same and run the same psyops/disinformation programs. Thus, a vastly progressive state like California is said to have "passed" a referendum sanctifying "marriage between a man and a woman" in a 'TRADE SECRET' voting system--a system in which the public has NO RIGHT to review the vote tabulation code and which conducts only a miserably inadequate 1% audit to check for machine fraud--and the narrative accompanying it is that California is "turning conservative"!

We find this phenomenon everywhere--on issues of war, torture, social justice, public works, corporate rule, you name it. Money and 'TRADE SECRET' programming (s)elects stupid, thieving, perverted, hypocritical, rightwing bloviators to Congress, or keeps perfect monsters in the White House for eight years, and the corpo-fascist press writes the narrative that ordinary Americans LIKE stupid, thieving, perverted, hypocritical, rightwing bloviators and monsters who destroy the Constitution, torture prisoners and slaughter a million innocent people to steal their oil--not to mention stealing us blind and deliberately creating Great Depression II. We supposedly LIKE these things. Bullshit! Now these monsters are honored guests on TV shows, and the president that this system has now put in place, to take the blame for their crimes, has no power to even investigate, let alone prosecute, them, and offers lame excuses like, "We have to look forward not backward."

With such egregious manipulation occurring, the manipulators MUST HAVE scapegoats. And it's interesting that, during their decade of rawest power, their notions for controlling illegal immigration ran to building a wall between Mexico and the United States--an utterly ludicrous idea. They ran immigration the way they ran Katrina and everything else--as a boondoggle for private contractors, with absolutely no thought to effectiveness or fairness, and, indeed, their purpose seems to have been to DESTROY government agencies and rightful powers. The ravaging of small Mexican and other Central American farmers accomplished by several decades of "free trade for the rich" naturally resulted in a vast, poor and jobless population in Mexico, Guatemala and Honduras, and a flood of illegal immigration to the U.S.--to the great advantage of the rich and the corporate HERE, who can pay them shit wages and bust union organizing. And guess what? These very same people, whose lives and communities have been deliberately destroyed by the rich and the corporate in their home countries, with U.S. help, are now the ready-made scapegoats for the rich and the corporate HERE, NOW, as these same monstrous greedbags turn the United States into a "third world country," looting and plundering us everywhere you look.

Most Americans have perfectly good relations with undocumented workers, who pose no threat whatsoever to anybody, and are hard-working family-oriented people who would like nothing better than to return to their native villages and communities. Most north Americans are NOT racists, and many love and appreciate Latin American culture and meld with Latin American culture in many ways. In Texas they even have a word for it--TexMex--people of BOTH cultures, whether by intermarriage or by a preference for melding! I am a sort of TexMex myself, in California. (A "CalMex"?)--Mexicans married into my family, and me and my brothers and sisters brought up in a mixed culture. Border cultures throughout the thousand mile Mexican-U.S. border are like this. There is NO PROBLEM. People create their own rich local culture made of many influences, and brotherhood and sisterhood and friendliness and LOVE are the rule. Racists and the resentful are very much the exception. And building a wall between Mexico and the United States--an actual wall or a figurative wall--is like driving a stake into our hearts. The use of undocumented, brown, Spanish-speaking workers, as a distraction and cover for vast corporate thievery and war profiteering, served up by unscrupulous, Diebold-selected politicians, HURTS. It is an abomination and it HURTS. It is sickening and it HURTS. It is a manipulation--it is not real--and it HURTS. It is anti-democratic and extremely fascist and it hurts like hell--and IS hell if you believe their goddamned lies. Don't live in their hell. Recognize the love all around you, of people of different kinds living peacefully together with the common goal of a decent life for all. That is what Americans of the north and Americans of the south create on their own. That is what we HAVE. And it is a glorious creation, repeated all across the U.S., involving many kinds of people and many cultures. It IS America.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Just look at the 270 mile US/Mexico "border wall".
HUGE uproar.

Lotsa heated press.



All fabricated.

Very Orwellian.


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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. By the "US", I mean a set of institutions, federal and local laws, organizations, conventions
..and people too. And in their conjunction, without trying to answer if it comes from racism or not, I believe that these factors tend to badly mistreat undocumented workers. In the US, even civilians take part in the man-hunting activities. Btw, I heard that 2/3 of the Americans and 1/4 of the Latino community supported the Arizona immigration law.

I see you talking about class struggle, which I think is an interesting argument in this case but it shouldn't occult the huge and violent problems that come from the division of the planet between an Imperial group of countries and a "Third World".
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. duplicata
Edited on Sat May-22-10 01:33 PM by ChangoLoa
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