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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 10:00 PM
Original message
Latin America's path to independence
Edited on Sat Mar-06-10 10:37 PM by polly7
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/feb/25/latin-america-independence

Latin America took another historic step forward this week with the creation of a new regional organisation of 32 Latin American and Caribbean countries. The United States and Canada were excluded.

The increasing independence of Latin America has been one of the most important geopolitical changes over the last decade, affecting not only the region but the rest of the world as well. For example, Brazil has publicly supported Iran's right to enrich uranium and opposed further sanctions against the country. Latin America, once under the control of the United States, is increasingly emerging as a power bloc with its own interests and agenda.


http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/latin-america-rising/democracy-rising-1
Democracy Rising
Grassroots movements change the face of power.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Saw your articles, will read them both later this evening. They look great.
Thanks for the material, and welcome to the Latin America forum! :hi:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you, polly!
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks JudiLynn and EFerrari, one is a bit older but I found them
both interesting. I feel so proud for some reason that Latin America seems to be really coming into its own, happy for them and hope nothing stops their progress.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I haven't read the older one and am grateful for the link!
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. The comment is overblown
All talk of "independence" will be mostly hot air because Latin American nations are divided, and will likely remain divided. It's evident Brazil and Mexico (due to their sheer size) have to provide the leadership to get this new organization to work, but others won't allow it. There's also the left-right divisions, as well as language divisions (although the tiny English speaking Caribbean states are meaningless, they have very small economies). And there are the ancient conflicts, such as Bolivia versus Chile.

The new organization is needed mostly as a power block to carry out free trade negotiations with the EU, China, Japan, and the US/Canada. But the results will take at least 10 years. As regards diplomacy, everybody will go their own way. For example, the US policy against Iran is evidently driven by the Israelis, who are the supreme warmongers in the Middle East, but I don't think we'll see Mexico or Colombia follow Brazil's lead and take an independent stance - they're too dependent on American goodwill to keep their economies going.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. We shall see. n/t.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. See protocol rv's racist comment that an "Indian"'s word should be questioned because he is an
"Indian," here:

Comment 36

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x30994

In addition to making this racist comment, protocol rv is a Chevron-Texaco apologist. Protocol rv's opinions should be weighed accordingly. In this case, as with so many rightwingers and corpo-fascists, protocol rv is projecting. Since the U.S. provides the most significant outside support for the rightwing in Latin America--with lavish funding of rightwing groups throughout the region, via the USAID, CIA and other U.S. taxpayer-funded entities, as well as funding several fascist militaries and, by extension, their closely tied death squads in Colombia and Honduras, and possibly elsewhere, with billions of dollars in military aid--protocol rv spouts U.S. propaganda and U.S. goals, for instance, that "all talk of 'independence' will be mostly hot air." This is what Sec of State Clinton would like it to be, not what it is. Latin American talk of independence is anything but "hot air." It has already manifested in the region on numerous issues, and is a huge threat to U.S. corpo-fascist and war profiteer interests.

Some important issues on which Latin American independence has already manifested are: recognition of the Cuban government (most L/A countries); the Venezuelan people's peaceful defeat of the U.S.-backed rightwing military coup attempt in Venezuela in 2002, the U.S.-backed oil bosses' lockout in Venezuela in 2003, and the U.S. funded recall election against Chavez in 2004; the rejection by leaders of the left and the right of U.S. interference in Venezuela; the rejection by Brazil's Lula da Silva and others of the U.S. dictate to South American leaders that they must "isolate" Chavez in the 2004-2007 period; the complete condemnation by the Rio Group (all Latin American countries) of the U.S./Colombia bombing/raid on Ecuador in 2008; the complete rejection by UNASUR (all South American countries--prototype "common market") of the U.S. funded/organized white separatist coup attempt in Bolivia in 2008 (and UNASUR's help to Evo Morales to end that coup attempt); the rejection by many countries of the failed, corrupt, murderous U.S. "war on drugs"; the expulsion of the U.S. military from several countries (notable recently, Ecuador and Paraguay); rejection of World Bank/IMF loan sharks and imposed "neo-liberal" policies by many countries (the World Bank portfolio has plunged to almost zero in the region); Brazil's aid to President Zelaya in Honduras; near universal rejection of U.S. 'election' cosmetics on the rightwing coup in Honduras; Brazil's invitation to the president of Iran to visit Brazil* (concerning which Sec of State Clinton warned Brazil and others about "the consequences" if they defied the U.S. on this issue); and organization of the new unity movement through the Rio Group, partly in response to the secretly negotiated U.S./Colombia military agreement and the U.S.-backed rightwing coup in Honduras and in response to sentiment throughout the region against U.S. dictates and U.S. domination.

And this is just a partial list of issues/events on which Latin American countries have exhibited unprecedented independence in the current era. Sec of State Clinton is a little better at the U.S. "divide and conquer" tactic--or, rather, at trying to disguise it--than the Bushwhacks--but, despite some ravages, such as the death-squad murdered leftists in Honduras, and intimidation-bribery of a few U.S. client states, it is not working.

Protocol rv further says that "Latin American nations are divided, and will likely remain divided." This is the U.S. strategy against Latin American economic/political integration--"divide and conquer"--not the general reality. This strategy has manifested in everything Sec of State Clinton and the Obama administration has done thus far in Latin America. And it appears to have drawn countries together rather than torn them apart. There is vast disappointment in the Obama administration--after Obama promised "peace, respect and cooperation," followed by the U.S./Colombia military agreement and the outrage of Honduras. Latin American leaders have evidently decided that the need to pull together is more important than ever.

Protocol rv mentions specifically "ancient conflicts, such as Bolivia versus Chile." This should alert us to another U.S. "divide and conquer" effort that is likely in the offing. Chile, under outgoing leftist president Michele Batchelet granted Bolivia access to the sea, settling a hundred year old dispute (once a cause of war). The very corrupt, U.S.-dominated "free trade for the rich" government of Alan Garcia in Peru has tried to disrupt this accord. And though Batchelet (who was termed out) has an 80% approval rating in Chile, her successor was just defeated by a rightwing billionaire who may toady to the U.S. on this issue and try to cause trouble for Evo Morales, whom the U.S. was unable to topple in 2008. (Batchelet was also critically important to activating UNASUR to back up Morales, when he threw the U.S. ambassador out of Bolivia, during that white separatist coup attempt.) Why is protocol rv mentioning this (to most people) obscure issue? Interesting, huh?

-----------------------


*(Protocol rv tries to downplay Brazil's defiance of the U.S. on Iran, harumphing that, 'well, Colombia and Mexico won't do it.' Of course Colombia won't do it--they are now the 'South Vietnam' of Latin America--a U.S. military occupied state that does nothing that is not okayed in Washington. And though I wouldn't write off potential Mexican defiance on this issue--Calderon is, after all, the rightwing president who publicly lectured Bush Jr., to his face, on the sovereignty of Latin American countries, using Venezuela as the example!--it is not that important whether all Latin American countries agree about Iran. What they DO agree on is that Latin American countries have the sovereign right to make their own alliances and other foreign policy decisions, without U.S. dictation. There is great unity and strength of this point--sovereignty. It is THE unifying issue. But I think we can gather, from protocol rv mentioning Iran, that this is another "divide and conquer" wedge that the U.S. has been trying to use, and may continue trying to use, to destroy the unity movement and most especially to destroy the leftist democracy movement that has swept Latin America. The U.S. wouldn't mind the unity of puppets. But our Corporate Rulers hate and will ruthlessly try to destroy the unity of leaders who are committed to social justice and to the sovereignty of their people.)
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I don't think the Bolivians agree
Let's see, Latin America has Mercosur, Unasur, Alba, Andean Pact, CA4, Caricom....So now the soup's got one more group.

I'd like to see how you'll get Mexico, Colombia, Brazil, Chile and Argentina to get much done together with Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Ecuador. Did you hear the Ambassador from Argentina defend the Human Rights Commission after Venezuela's attack? I don't think they'll be joining into a meaningful union any time within the next 10 years.

By the way, Latin American divisions are the result of mountains, jungle, and history, and they're not caused by the US.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Brazil has been one of Venezuela's biggest supporters. Maybe you're out of touch.










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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Nice pictures
The pictures are nice...but they don't mean Venezuela and Brazil are about to form a Commonwealth or anything remotely like it.

Brazil can sign a bilateral treaty, but they don't. They don't have to wait for Mercosur. But they won't sign anything close to a bilateral treaty. And you won't ever hear of them joining Alba, or Petrocaribe, or any of Chavez' ideas.

Let's also recall Lula is focusing on helping Brazilian industry, and he's very good at it. This is why he'll deal with anybody as long as it gets contracts for their companies.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Does it hurt that much? n/t
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. What, Chavez hugging Lula?
Not at all. They can hug all they want. I like Lula, he's a good salesman and politician.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Brazil and Venezuela have been the backbone of resistance
to the predations of the IMF and the World Bank and their American enforcers in the region. They don't need to get married. The partnership has worked very well.
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. There's no partnership
Venezuela is ruled by marxists. Brazil isn't. The Brazilians wink and smile because they make money off Venezuela. And they want to keep it stable - a stable Venezuela is good for Brazilian businesses. The less food Venezuela produces, the more food Brazilians sell. I suppose you are not aware, but Venezuela's Central Bank reported that food production dropped more than 2 % in 2009 versus 2008. And this is in a country which imports a lot of food. Brazil benefits not only because overall food production is down, but also because Chavez is shutting down trade with Colombia, which opens the market to higher priced Brazilian food and other goods.

Also, the less capable Venezuela's professionals become as the middle class flees the country, the more Brazilians will get to do. And let's not mice words, Chavez has stated capitalists are the devil, he's a marxist, blah blah. And this sends a clear message to many in the middle class: don't invest, sell what you can, get out if you have a place to go, and forget Venezuela, because it's about to become another Cuba.

Thee Brazilians are being very smart, but don't have illusions, Venezuela is isolating itself as Chavez and his government embrace marxism openly. But multinationals, brazilians and others, know how to work in communist nations, and they'll deal as long as they have fat profits and somehow get their business done.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Well, we can tell who "Protocol rv" gets his/her "let's not mice words" talking points from...
...rightwing business interests in Brazil! Add that to "protocol rv"'s advocacy of Chevron-Texaco, re their humongous toxic oil spill in the Ecuadoran rainforest (commonly referred to as "the rainforest Chernobyl") and the racist comment about "Indians," and we can surely apply my Bushwhack "rule of thumb," that whatever "protocol rv" asserts, the opposite is true.

(Protocol rv: "And let's not mice words, Chavez has stated capitalists are the devil, he's a marxist, blah blah.")

In any case, if you don't get all your news from the corpo-fascist press, and if you know how to read between the lines of corpo-fascist press articles, you know very well that Lula da Silva and Hugo Chavez are closely allied, and that ideology--whether Marxist or Capitalist--is completely unimportant to them. The two things that ARE important to them are Latin American sovereignty and social justice. Lulu has said, of Chavez, "They can invent a lot of things to criticize Chavez, but not on democracy!" The people of Venezuela have a RIGHT TO CHOOSE their leaders and their economic policies, which Chavez has clearly laid out, in every political campaign, and has overwhelmingly won approval for in every presidential and several legislative elections--in an honest, transparent, internationally monitored election system. Brazilians chose a more middle ground--more capitalism, less socialism--but that does not mean that these leaders, with overwhelming approval ratings, are not in accord on the fundamental principles of regional development--and thus, I might add, their constituencies--the vast majority of Venezuelans and Brazilians, most of whom are poor--are also in accord.

"Protocol rv" speaks for and apparently consults the rich elites, in rather a broad array of countries--Ecuador (the racist elite/Chevron-Texaco), Bolivia (the white separatist rich landowners--a leading faction of which are rioters and murderers), Brazil (rightwing business interests) and Venezuela (the anti-Chavez, coupmongering rich oil elite). These interests coincide with the Corporate Ruler/War Profiteer interests who run the U.S. "Protocol rv" claims to be a Venezuelan. If true, he/she seems to identify with that rich oil elite which would rather see Exxon Mobil running their country than the elected president and who utterly neglected the poor majority and the needs of their own country when they were in power. If this is the "middle class" who are "fleeing" Venezuela--if that is true--I imagine that the real middle class--the small business people, teachers, medical professionals, oil engineers and others who have helped Venezuela achieve its good financial/social position--sizzling economic growth of 10% over five years, accumulation of $50 billion in international cash reserves, low debt, good credit, low unemployment, high education enrollment, universal free medical care--with which to cushion Venezuela against the Bushwhack Financial 9/11--are saying, "Good riddance! And take your Gucci bags with you!"
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
34.  during which political campaign Chavez said he was communist?
I'd like to know, I'm really curious. I don't recall him saying he was a communist or had positive views about marxism before he was elected the last time.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
30. Red baiting is easy, and it's stupid.
Most DU'ers recognize Hugo Chavez is NOT a "Marxist."

We've had greasy wave after wave of trolls oozing in, to attempt to label everyone they hate as a "marxist" or flat out "commie," in the case of the less "eddicated" right-wingers. It stuns and perplexes most people seeing them spend so much vitriol, working so hard to smear leftists, to try to devaluate them.

Nearly all of us have heard various remarks Hugo Chavez has made which should shine a light for the semi-conscious people who remain in darkness, here's one example:
Parade Magazine's Chavez Smear
Venezuelan president a terrorist funder?

10/12/05

On October 9, Parade magazine--the Sunday newspaper supplement with a circulation of 34.5 million, making it the country's most widely distributed magazine--published an inaccurate smear against Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. The smear, appearing in the Q&A column "Walter Scott's Personality Parade," was a response to a letter writer who wanted to know "where Fidel Castro gets the dough to shore up his bankrupt regime." Scott's full answer was:

"In the wake of the collapse of the USSR, which bankrolled him to the tune of $4 billion a year, Castro has turned to Hugo Chavez, Marxist president of Venezuela, the world's fifth-largest oil exporter. In addition to shoring up Castro, he's funding revolutionaries and terrorists throughout Latin America."

Scott's two-sentence response managed to misrepresent several issues. Chavez is not a Marxist; asked about his politics by the left-wing publication CounterPunch (8/16/04), Chavez replied: "I don't believe in the dogmatic postulates of Marxist revolution. I don't accept that we are living in a period of proletarian revolutions.... Are we aiming in Venezuela today for the abolition of private property or a classless society? I don't think so." Chavez describes himself as a Bolivarian, a follower of the 19th Century Latin American independence leader Simon Bolivar.
More:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2697
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. oops
I guess he made a turn on you...
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. Members of the Venezuela-organized Bank of the South: BRAZIL, Argentina, Paraguay,
Uruguay, Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela. Initial capital of the Bank of South: 20 billion U.S. dollars. Largest contributors: BRAZIL, Venezuela, Argentina ($4 billion each).

"...The intention of the bank is to lend money to nations in the Americas for the construction of social programs and infrastructure."

The Bank of the South "...has been established because of disapproval of the protocol of the World Bank and IMF, in particular the enforcement of unrelated free market reforms on countries seeking emergency loans.<3> It also represents an attempt to achieve regional independence and endogenous development. The program would lend money to any nation involved in the construction of approved programs, and without conditions traditionally attached to such loans, such as deregulation.

The Bank is intended as an alternative to borrowing from the IMF and the World Bank. Hugo Chávez has promised to withdraw from the IMF and encourages other member states to do so as well, Indeed Latin America's dependence on the IMF fell dramatically between 2005 and 2008, with outstanding loans falling from 80% of the IMF's $81bn loan portfolio, to 1% of the IMF's $17bn of outstanding loans.<4> Brazil and Argentina are also refusing to borrow from the IMF again....

It is proposed that all member countries contribute fairly equal shares to the Bank's initial capital of fourteen billion reais (seven billion dollars) so that no member state will control a dominant share. Argentina joined with Venezuela to officially propose such an initiative, but Brazil also became a major player."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_the_South

-----------------------------------------------------

Protocol rv: "...you won't ever hear of (Brazil) joining Alba, or Petrocaribe, or any of Chavez' ideas."

Protocol rv's comments are worthless, as one would expect from someone who makes racist comments and advocates for oil corporations.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. But p-rv's invaluable contributions/observations on the Cuba threads cannot be misunderestimated.
They are a good window to poster's world view. :dunce:


:hi:









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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. The Bank of the South
The Bank of the South is a bank, not a trade organization, nor a commonwealth.

I did a little research about this bank using google. It seems Chavez came up with the idea in 2006, a preliminary agreement was signed in 2007, but a "final" agreement wasn't reached until 2009. Reportedly, the Brazilians didn't feel it was needed, because they already have a bank making loans to further Brazilian business interests. However, it seems they decided to "participate" knowing the bank would never get off the ground.

Quoting the press:

"The Bank of the South, started at the end of 2007 (and the brainchild of Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez), will have an initial capital of 7 billion US dollars (originally it was planned 10 billion), of which Argentina, Brazil and Venezuela will supply 2 billion US dollars each; Ecuador and Uruguay 400 million US dollars each and Bolivia 200 million."

I also read the $20 billion figure, but that's not close to reality, it's mentioned in 2007 and then all mention of the figure evaporates.

A google search using "Banco del Sur" and "Financia" yields zero hits. It seems the Banco del Sur or Bank of the South doesn't lend money yet. I failed to find an address for it in Caracas. If it exists, it must be a desk at a ministry somewhere?

Then, let's consider current conditions: Brazil is financially sound, but Venezuela is issuing debt at a really fast pace. Foreign debt increased, according to the Central Bank, from $47 to $62 billion in 2009. So where is Venezuela going to find the $2 billion it's supposed to put in the bank? There's no money available.

What about Argentina? I venture a guess the readers know there's a huge controversy brewing in Buenos Aires regarding the Cristina Fernandez' move, quoting:

"The year began with controversy surrounding the president's order that a US$6.7 billion escrow account be opened at the Central Bank for the purpose of retiring high-interest bonds, whose principal is tied to inflation. The move met with the opposition of Central Bank President Martín Redrado, who refused to implement it, and following an impasse, he was dismissed by presidential decree on January 7, 2010."

This controversy is still going on, and the President, disobeying both the Supreme Court and the Congress, insists she'll pay the bonds with the cash reserves (shades of Zelaya playing chicken with the Supreme Court and the Congress?).

So, what can we conclude? President Lula da Silva, knowing very well the Banco del Sur would not function in the future, signed another piece of paper to keep the Venezuelans happy...and went on to get more business deals for Brazilian private multinationals, which are making a killing in Venezuela using the cover Lula provides for them.

So what should we make about this great friendship you like to brag about? It seems to be a calculated move by the Brazilians to play us Venezuelans for chumps, get easy business, fat profits, and laugh hauling bags of money to the bank. Will they ever consider joining us in anything meaningful, such as the European Union? No. They won't even lobby Paraguay so we can get into Mercosur. Not that it makes a difference to them now.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Thanks for these great images. They've been great friends a long time. It shows. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I'd love to write a book about that relationship.
;)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. So you, of the racist comment about "Indians," are now speaking for all Bolivians?
Or is it just the white separatists that you mean when you say, "I don't think Bolivians agree"?

Your comments are worthless, in my opinion--except to point us to the next U.S./corporate/war profiteer/rightwing outrage in Latin America. Natch, the old Chile/Bolivia dispute--coming up.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Hot air.
:rofl:

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. This is the money shot, imho:
"Meanwhile, in Washington foreign policy circles, it is getting increasingly more difficult to maintain the worn-out fiction that the US's differences with the region are a legacy of President Bush's "lack of involvement," or to blame a few leftist trouble-makers like Bolivia, Nicaragua, and of course the dreaded Venezuela. It seems to have gone unnoticed that Brazil has taken the same positions as Venezuela and Bolivia on Iran and other foreign policy issues, and has strongly supported Chávez. Perhaps the leadership of Mexico – a rightwing government that was one of the Bush administration's few allies in the region – in establishing this new organisation will stimulate some rethinking."

Stick a fork in the OAS. Please.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Okay

RIP OAS

---------------

OT -- speaking of RIPs, saw where seeinfweggos got the ax on the big Chavez thread in GD.

Her user name caught my attention ... seeinfweggos = Cienfuegos, as in the city and province in Cuba, or the revolutionary Camilo Cienfuegos. With that user name I sort of thought she may be an anti-Castro cubana-americana. :shrug:

But whatever, she was certainly strident.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. When I askd her about it, she had some story about a band.
I love our mods. lol
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-08-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Well, it is because of George W. Bush.
But not because of "lack of engagement", it's because he bet everything on the Middle East. It's not simply that he took Latin America for granted, though he did, he also made it impossible for the USA to take forceful military action, the USA is broke and hamstrung by Bushite policies, and everyone knows it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yep. One of my teachers at college also happened to be active
in the efforts for indigenous land rights in the Americas at the UN. She pointed this out about BushCo years ago and she was right.

People at the Pentagon who made weekly called to LatAm were too busy, it was put off, the relationships became more distant, other work took their place. Whatever it was, Latin America had something of a reprieve. I hope it was a long enough one for the region to be able to fend off the vultures a little more handily.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. It's too late, it's been too late for years, since Bush went all in on Iraq really
and pissed away all that money for nothing at all. (Remember how it was going to pay for itself?) The only question at this point is fast-and-implosive vs slow-and-managed, and it's getting too late for that too. I'm betting on the first for the simple reason that the TPTB still cling to their imaginary world order, and refuse to admit any fundamental error. If you never make any big mistakes, you can never learn any big lessons or make any big changes.
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. They'll learn and change
The USA has a very resilient economy and society. Although it's true the Bush regime dealt it a serios blow, it still remains the premier power, and has the number one economy. As it turns out, the "crisis of capitalism" isn't that bad, and can be managed as long as they get their act together. On the other hand, there's a serious crisis in "socialism of the 21st century", Venezuela's economy is doing very poorly.

President Obama seems to be a very intelligent man, and is navigating the dangerous areas fairly well. President Chavez doesn't have my confidence, he has declared himself a marxist. And marxism is going to be very bad for Venezuela.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. It must be a great comfort for you to know so clearly what is going to happen. nt
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Bemildred, you are a great observer
Of course we don't know what's going to happen. It is very human to underestimate risk, and to link oneself to a given future course, without understanding the nature of the butterfly effect, and how chaotic the future can be.

But we can be free to post our musings, hopes and fears. And I see a fairly positive trend with Obama in charge of the USA, rather than the terrible Bush, who I hope Americans will consider their worst president ever.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Well, I live here, and I think the USA is in deep shit.
Edited on Wed Mar-10-10 10:48 AM by bemildred
I don't think there is much Obama can do about it really, so I don't have a beef with him, and he is certainly better than Bush, who was a fool and a tool, a hip-shooter, who made "gut" decisions about complicated issues and so predictably made a mess of everything he touched.

I base my views largely on a wide reading of history and the notion that the USA is a perfectly ordinary country, some local differences to be sure, but the same sort of people as anywhere else and a perfectly ordinary culture and government. Occam's Razor applied to the USA in other words. Once you do that it becomes perfectly clear where we are.
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. It's all relative, I suppose
I'm sure many of us would rather be in the deep doo you are in, than the deeper doo we're in. The US is wasting a lot of resources trying to be a half baked empire with a corrupt congress, special interests dictating almost every government move. Just this morning I was discussing how the USA looks more and more like Rome. But Rome did take a long time to fall, and even after it fell it managed to resurge via the Vatican (wasn't the Pope an emperor in disguise?). I think it could be the same for the US, but of course nobody knows.

But even in the worst of times, the US does have a lot we don't have. There's nothing like the smell of garbage and the fear to go out after dark, to make one realize this place is in such trouble, it's like living during the end of a civilization. It wasn't pretty, but what comes is probably a lot worse. And there's very little to be done now, I think it's hopeless. The high inflation rate, electric power crisis, poor management, marxist dogma applied as if it were a religious belief, it is just too much.
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