Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Arnold August: Honduras – Constituent Assembly is the Solution

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Places » Latin America Donate to DU
 
Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 08:57 PM
Original message
Arnold August: Honduras – Constituent Assembly is the Solution
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-17-09 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here's the full section 7008 language from HR1105 (PL 111-8):
Sec. 7008. None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available pursuant to titles III through VI of this Act shall be obligated or expended to finance directly any assistance to the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup or decree: Provided, That assistance may be resumed to such government if the President determines and certifies to the Committees on Appropriations that subsequent to the termination of assistance a democratically elected government has taken office: Provided further, That the provisions of this section shall not apply to assistance to promote democratic elections or public participation in democratic processes: Provided further, That funds made available pursuant to the previous provisos shall be subject to the regular notification procedures of the Committees on Appropriations.

magbana's comments on this point seem insightful.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Insightful? Horse doody
I think this "magbana" loses credibility by defending the Cuban regime. To say they have a free electoral system is the ultimate fiction. It's downright Orwellian. Cuba is a dictatorship run by a gerontocracy of old marxists peddling a rotten, corrupt and extremely inefficient system which treats the individual as a slave, a property of the state to be directed, mauled, killed, tortured, or whatever they think is necessary to ensure the survival in power of party members who happen to live in the big houses vacated by the old rich.

It's just more of the same, no difference between a communist system such as Cuba's and old feudal system, other than they wrap it up with communist gingerbread. Meanwhile the people are kept as slaves, they are hungry, and live hopeless lives, in a society where young women aspire to become $5 US prostitutes. Defend that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I regard the comments on the 7008 language and the refusal to say MILITARY coup as insightful
Perhaps you will notice that I said "on this point" after providing the 7008 language

If I have time later, I'll post in the thread why I think magbana's analysis of the Administration position is incorrect
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
magbana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-18-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Help me out folks
When you say "magbana's" comments, do you mean what Arnold August is saying in his article? If you are talking about comments I have made on something else, please let me know what it is, so I can join in on the fun.

thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Nah
I meant defending the Cuban regime. Human Rights Watch just issued a scathing report about the human rights abuses by the Castro brothers. Seems it's getting worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. My apologies. I was sloppy in citing.
I should have said August's comments on 7008 and "military coup" were insightful
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-19-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. It is an insightful article, but I disagree with one conclusion...
(Re Braulio's silly comment above, the article is by Arnold August, not magbana.)

August writes:

"Fourthly, the political clout against the Micheletti regime would have been devastating if the coup was declared to be military according to Section 7008. The putschists, who were very conscious about the controversy surrounding Section 7008, would probably not have lasted as long as it did."

I don't think this is true. Section 7008 would not only have required suspension of all funds to Honduras, it would also have required that the "military coup" classification be approved by the US Congress. I think that was what Jim DeMint (Puke-SC) and brethren were expecting, and they were laying in wait to hand Obama his ass on his stated policy of "peace, respect and cooperation" in Latin America.

August then quotes Time magazine (ultra corpo-fascist 'news' monopoly) in support of the argument that the Obamites kept it out of Congress (by not declaring it a "military coup") in order to then legitimize the Honduran junta, and restore whatever funding the Obama administration had suspended, without the participation of the US Congress. But this whole argument--the reverse of what I think occurred--presumes that Jim DeMint and his Bush Cartel handlers are not controlling Congress, on most issues, and on Latin America (source of 'easy pickuns' oil in "our own backyard") in particular.

How this first term senator has so much power in Congress is a real mystery--except maybe for the fact that SC has THE most non-transparent voting system in the USA.

I think the overriding issue in the entire Honduran situation is the US/Colombia agreement for SEVEN new US military bases in Colombia--signed by the Bushwhack ambassador in Colombia last week and heading for the US Congress. The US Honduran military base (and port facilities) is also important as a strategic war asset, but the South Vietnamization of Colombia is of primary importance. DeMint has been holding up all of Obama's Latin American appointments ostensibly because Obama didn't seem to back the coup in Honduras. But the issue looming behind that issue is Colombia--and looming behind Colombia, like a dim but monstrous shadow, is the next oil war.

I'm not sure how to put these pieces together--especially as to Obama's complicity (or not) in the Honduran coup--but I think that the interpretation that Obama is basically just George Bush (or Dick Cheney) and has been pursuing a devious, backstabbing, fascist agenda from Day One of the coup is too simplistic.

And the corpo-fascist media criticism of Obama--the Time magazine article, for instance--may be a clue to how we are being played. Consider this: The first goal of the Honduran coup was to secure the US military base in Honduras--a Pentagon goal. The second goal was to disable--sabotage, end--Obama's more peaceful policy in Latin America.

Chavez has said that Obama "is a prisoner of the Pentagon." I tend to agree. Obama was caught between this Pentagon goal (which might have been pursuing its goal without his knowledge--permitting the plane carrying the kidnapped president to land and refuel at Palmero, for instance), and the Diebolded-into-office Bushwhack forces in Congress which are sabotaging him on every front, including this one, on the one hand, and leaders like Lulu and all of Latin America, on the other. And then there's Clinton--whom he obviously made a deal with, to get to the White House. I think she probably prefers a peaceful US corporatizing of Latin America, rather than a bloody one. But, like her husband, she may help pave the way for war--as they both did on Iraq--while trying to appear peaceful. Former Latin American ambassador Robert E. White calls her efforts in Honduras "amateurish" and "a debacle." I would not be that charitable to Clinton. She has too often acted as an agent for Bushwhackery.

Is Obama just a hapless, powerless, but maybe well-intentioned observer of these events? Or is he truly a liar on his stated policy in Latin America--and an agent of evil power players comparable to Bush? Or something in between?

It's important to know where to put whatever public pressure we can muster. This is vital strategic knowledge--and it's hard to come by, in our Byzantine political establishment. Despite what has occurred, I think it may be inaccurate--and lead to strategies that might serve the lords of war and oppression--to just paint Obama and his entire administration as evildoers comparable to the Bush Junta. I have long feared this kind of "divide and conquer" strategy by the far rightwing billionaires who are running things--so very like Hitler's strategy in the early 1930s, whereby the center-left was rendered unable to govern. And they don't have to stuff ballot boxes and beat up voters, today. They have Diebold (now called "Premier," recently bought out by ES&S, which is even worse than Diebold, as to far rightwing connections and total lack of scruples, and now has a monopoly on our vote counting system). They have the capability--the EASY capability--of putting Sarah Palin or even Dick Cheney into the White House in 2012, and that will be the end of all hope for peace in Latin America.

A tough nut, this. And I don't think the combined intellect and research of the left has cracked it yet. What really went down in Honduras? Whose plot was it? And what to do now, to help the Honduran people, and to bend US policy in Latin America back toward peace?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. There was no plot
The general dude got mad at Zelaya for firing him, and got Congress and the Supremos to go along. Once Zelaya was out, they got Congress to vote in a new President. If Zelaya hadn't been following the Venezuelan advice, he would have been ok
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-20-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Oh, yeah, the plane carrying the kidnapped president at gunpoint, stopping at the US military base
in Honduras, had nothing to do with it. The US military commanders there have better things to do than stop and inspect mysterious airplanes with blackened windows!

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Places » Latin America Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC