Do you have relationships w/anti-choice people...?

[bliss_eternal]

One area I've noticed many friends frequently "disagree" about is reproductive choice. In the real world, some agree to disagree and never discuss the issue with people they care about. Some refuse to discuss their views on the issue at all, realizing how polarizing arguments around choice can get.

I can't think of an internet message board I've ever visited that didn't feature heated exchanges regarding choice. Most threads on the issue end up locked, and board moderators instill rules against bringing up the issue again. I've seen people that considered others 'internet friends' distance themselves from those they found differed in their beliefs on choice.

Personally, prior to marriage that was an absolute deal breaker for me.
If I learned a man I dated opposed choice, "...buh-bye." ;)

Even on this--a progressive board we don't all seem to agree about choice. As such, pro-choice broke from the choice forum to provide a safety zone for those not wanting to argue about it. I know some of our pro-choice members sometimes visit the choice forum, willing to discuss the issues. Others aren't really interested in talking with those that are anti-choice.

So, I'm curious--do you work to maintain relationships w/those in your world that you find oppose choice for women? If so, how? If not, why not? Are there people you actively avoid because of their views? Have you ever found someone's views so offensive to you that you eventually walked away from that person?

Also, I'm curious as to what (if any) feelings you have about anti-choice people? What I mean is, do you believe that with an anti-choice perspective come other inherent individual traits or issues?

(Relationships include friendships, casual dates, boyfriends, girlfriends, relatives, casual acquaintances, etc.)
:hi:

[Bjornsdotter]

1. I voted other

:hi:

...because I don't think I have any relationship with anyone who is anti-choice unless they are hiding it.

Although I used to walk with a neighbor who told me she was anti-choice and also thought Harry Potter was evil. I stopped walking with her.

Cheers

[bliss_eternal]

8. Isn't it funny...?

...how frequently anti-choicers are also those that believe Harry Potter is evil?

I don't understand how people that are ok with Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy and other ideas suddenly are unable to suspend imagination for the sake of a "fantasy children's novel." As if they've never heard of "fiction." It's just insane to me.

[City Lights]

2. Yes and no.

I could not have a relationship with a man who was anti-choice. Period. However, I can't pick and choose my relatives, so I have to maintain a relationship with them on some level.

My issue is with my SIL. Used to be pro-choice, and has had multiple abortions. Then she found Jesus, and, oh brother, what a difference he's made in her life. (:puke:) We visited them in the summer of 2006, and she got into it with my husband. She called him "pro-abortion." (:eyes:) He let her have it. (:applause:) We haven't seen her since. We won't be able to avoid her forever, but we do try and avoid seeing her if possible. Luckily, they live in another city.

Between thumping the Bible in our faces and her new stand on abortion, I can barely stomach her.

For Christmas last year they made a donation in our kids' names to a Christian food bank, even though they know we aren't practicing Christians, and which resulted in us getting all sorts of Jesus mail. This year I suggested making a donation in her daughter's name to Planned Parenthood. :evilgrin:

[bliss_eternal]

7. I'm curious...

...are you and your husband aware of what brought on your sil's transformation? Was there an event or something that prompted such a dramatic change?

Some "find Jesus" and/or religion but still maintain their personal beliefs on some issues. But that's probably the exception more than the rule.

Good for you and your husband for maintaining your boundaries where she's concerned. My heart goes out to you, as I know what it's like to kind of have to tolerate the intolerable, because they are relatives. :hug:

[City Lights]

9. We think it was a combination of stuff that reached the breaking point.

It's a long, sordid story, but I think the thing that pushed her over the edge was her father and his wife adopting a baby when the father was 70 and his wife was 44. She's always seemed a bit unstable to me, but she came unglued after that, and no longer speaks to her father.

After the abortions, when she was in her late 20's, she made a decision to have a tubal litigation because she has epilepsy and didn't want to pass it on to her children. Then she met her husband and started regretting the decision she made to have the tubal litigation. Through the 20 years I've known her, she's hinted at sexual abuse by her parents, however, since her mother passed away in the late 70's, she was only able to confront her father about it. He denied it, but there was some weird shit going on in that house that has left all four kids scarred in some way, so who knows...

After her mother and father divorced back in the late 70's, her father started seeing someone who was the same age as her. They're married now. Her father's wife eventually decided she wanted a baby, and since he'd had a vasectomy, they decided to adopt.

I have no idea whether the accusations about her parents are true, but she feels intense anger toward her father and blames him for the mess that is her life. She feels that he screwed her up royally, took no responsibility for any of it, and moved on to a new baby.

My SIL and her husband have since adopted a girl who is 11. Unlike my SIL, her husband was raised with religion, and after getting married said he wanted to start going to church again. They've been active in their church for years, but it's only the last 3 years or so that she seemed to turn into a Bible thumper. The odd thing is, her husband isn't in your face about religion, abortion, etc. It's just her.

Hope this makes sense. :-)

[bliss_eternal]

11. Your post makes sense....

...and explains a lot. Thank you for sharing this.

I'm no expert, but all you've shared about your sil sounds atypical of incest/molestation survivors.

Many abuse survivors are easy pickings for cults and cult-like religious factions. Individuals from abusive backgrounds seem to take comfort in having "set in stone guidelines" of how to live their lives. They seem to find comfort in someone telling them what to do and how to do it. Most religions are all too happy to tell people EXACTLY what they should do and should not do.

It's too bad she didn't have exposure to resources specifically for incest survivors. They could have prepared her for the fact that abuse perpertrators almost never admit to what they did (when or if confronted). One really has to heal on their own terms, and not be reliant on them (the abusers) to help in any way (by admitting, apologizing, etc.). Expecting anything from them is setting oneself up for more disappointment, anger and pain. Making one's healing dependent on their participation almost guarantees one won't heal. :(

[ThomCat]

3. I'm too bluntly outspoken.

Everyone around me knows my opinions on stuff. I couldn't have a relationship of any kind with someone who is anti-choice. There would be constant friction, and I would be constantly poking at the wound. :P

So, that's a big NO.

[bliss_eternal]

6. You're bad.

But in a good way. ;) Honestly, on some issues I'm the same way. I know there's some stuff that people were afraid to discuss in my presence. LOL. I'm getting mellower, though--not quite as "in your face" as I once was.

[noamnety]

4. Yes and no.

Among adults, I hold them in contempt, so that makes it pointless to pretend we have a relationship of any sort.

But I teach in a high school, and I have students who do the pro-life day of silence, and such. At that age, I think they have their parents' opinions more than real world experience in them at that point, so I can't really judge. In the classroom, I really just want them to voice their opinions no matter what those opinions are, and I did take the opportunity that day to talk to them about civil disobedience in general. Apparently one of the teachers threatened discipline if they wouldn't take the tape off their mouths and participate in the class. I supported their right to protest. But I did explain that if you are going to protest, you need to consider ahead of time whether you are so dedicated to the cause that you are going to engage in disobedience - and accept the consequences, or if you want to back off before consequences happen, figuring you've made your point by then. Either decision is fine, but it's not always realistic to assume that you can disobey whatever authority stuff is in place, and there won't be consequences. (There were no consequences in my room, just to be clear.)

I want my kids to feel emboldened to speak out, and that trumps my personal beliefs. But that's very different, because it's not an equal relationship like I have with adults. :)

The most pro-life person I knew was my ex. Oh good grief, his life was gonna end if I had an abortion. Guess who was the first person to disappear from the scene when I was pregnant and in the hospital with complications ... and guess how interested he was in paying child support, and guess how much he's contributed toward her college tuition. I learned a good lesson on why men need to STFU when it comes to being pro-life, they are like Cheney and Bush, so quick to send others into battle while they enjoy their deferments and champagne.

(sorry for the rant)

[bliss_eternal]

5. No need...

...to apologize. I enjoyed reading your post.

I'm very sorry to hear of your ex. :hug:

I think the way you encourage your students to express themselves is very cool. :thumbsup:
I agree, at that age most of their opinions come from their home. Sometimes kids hold different beliefs than their parents (I was such an example--one parent was actually a republican.:scared:), but it seems to be rare.

It's wonderful that you encourage them to speak their minds, even if their ideas are in conflict with your beliefs. A lot of teachers would not be that supportive.

[WildClarySage]

10. My father is a fox news republican

so I have to ignore political issues that divide us. By and large, I respect that other people's experiences have shaped their values and beliefs, and I expect others to respect mine. If they can't do that, I won't waste my time, energy, etc. on maintaining any kind of relationship.

[Katherine Brengle]

12. No. Although I'm sure there are family

members who are anti-choice and I just don't know about it.

Seeing women as human beings is a prerequisite for friendship/love with me.

[Control-Z]

13. I would find it difficult

to maintain a real relationship with someone who is anti-choice. It is not something that has come up a lot over the years, believe it or not - mostly due to my own silence. Until my mom's documentary came out 14 years ago I hadn't confided the details of her death to more than a few intimate friends.

Since, I've become more outspoken about my beliefs. I've never really had to defend my position though, or engage in any serious debate (probably because I choose relationships with more like minded people in the first place) but on the occasion where there would be argument, just the mention of my mother stops the most hard core lifers in their tracks.

I'm still careful to use the information though, because rather than opening up conversation it usually shuts people down. With the exception of those who have actually changed their POV and had open, honest discussions with me, I really don't know how the information impacts others - beyond the "leper" status it gives me. Even my Dem in-laws have NEVER discussed the A word in my company - have never said a word about my mother to me. I'm not sure if it's because they are anti-choice, just disinterested, or if they are simply uncomfortable around me.

I do believe the anti-choice perspective usually comes with other inherent traits, at least with mature adults, and I'm usually not receptive to these people as a whole. So I have to assume that anyone who chooses to remain a friend but is silent on the subject, is so out of discomfort rather than conflict, if that makes any sense.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

14. No. Everyone I associate with is pro-choice.

This is mostly due to the fact that I associate with liberals though. I once knew an anti-choicer. He was a friend of my husbands. When he talked about how he loved Ann Coulter, I tried to turn the other cheek. But when he said we should wipe all Muslims off the face of the planet, I put my foot down.

Now, my husband believes that life starts at conception, but he agrees that this only means that if *he* ever gets pregnant, he will not have an abortion. He can't vote, but he is pro-choice.

All of which is odd, because myself and my family (husband excluded) are all Catholics. However, they believe, like my husband, that this only means that they will not have an abortion, not that all women should be robbed of the choice.

[ismnotwasm]

15. Only ones I'm related to.

I don't really understand the anti-choice position I guess. I've read intellectual and spiritual arguments about life, the meaning of life, the sanctity of life, trying to tie it all in to a so called "pro-life" position. None of it makes either intellectual or spiritual sense to me. I've even argued a time or two from either position. I no longer bother.

Simply put, being born female should never, ever mean being forced to carry a pregnancy to term. And that's why the term "forced birth" resonates so strongly with me. There is no other way to look at laws or attitudes that promote such a travesty of human rights.

I don't believe in a deity, but if I did, nothing I've read about one I'd be interested in ever TRULY suggests that a woman and a pregnancy should be in competition for life itself--which is exactly what a forced birth position is. It's a simultaneously ludicrous and terrifying thought, and I don't know how people are able to live with it.

[Ilsa]

16. I haven't asked her in a long time, but she is my best friend.

We decided not to talk about it twenty years ago. Maybe she has changed ehr mind about the self-determination aspect of this.

[smokey nj]

17. I had a similar situation with my best friend. We made a deal never to discuss it.

A few years ago, I found out that that she was, in fact, pro-choice. Although she'd never have an abortion herself, she always thought it should be legal. We had a good laugh thinking about all the arguments we'd had in the past.

[atommom]

18. Most of my family is conservative, religious, and anti-choice.

Since their religious beliefs (which lead to their anti-choice stance) are central to their lives, I don't argue with them about it. I know from experience that they won't change their minds. But our relationships would be a lot closer if it weren't for politics, "social issues," and religion. It's as if we live in different worlds.

I also have an old friend who converted to Catholicism a few years ago, becoming more conservative and more anti-choice. We've remained friends, but his new worldview has strained our friendship quite a bit. There are a multitude of topics we can't discuss anymore.