A lot of people here are really messed up.

[WilliamPitt]

The big thing to do here is analyze/trash/attack/deconstruct the actions or words of people in politics. He shoulda, she shoulda, why I otta, etc. I do it to; it's what we do.

So I guess maybe I'm just as messed up, because I participated, and because I never really had the right perspective of it all.

But this Cindy stuff here has opened my eyes to the true nature of many here, and to my own DU nature as well.

I guess, when these kind of burn-downs are aimed at public people I only know by name, the reality of it simply eluded me.

But now it's about a good friend of mine, a friend who is hurting and exhausted and sad, a friend who gave a hell of a lot more than anyone here ever has or will.

Now, she's just another ping-pong ball to be batted about in our catty one-upmanship games here, our interpersonal cross-post-flamebait poo-flinging. She deserves better than that.

Now, I see how messed up it is when we do this, when I do it, when you do it. I guess I needed it to be about someone I care deeply for in order to truly see how sad and gross and petty we can be.

I'm not scolding. I'm not attacking. No call-outs. It's me, too.

But damn, look at yourselves, at us. I have been looking for two days now at all this, and if the behavior about Cindy is reflective and representative of how we do things, we shouldn't feel anything besides embarrassed. I'm embarrassed.

I need to shake the dust of this place off my boots for a bit. No, not leaving, but if I stay around tonight and tomorrow, and this continues, I'm going to start a war here that will make what has already happened look like beach volleyball by comparison...so I'm no better than anyone else, it seems.

I just talked to Cindy, for anyone who cares. She sounds great, happy to be home, and talked about feeling like a great weight has been lifted from her.

So there's that.

[Richard Steele]

1. Seriously. nm

[Dark]

2. Amazing how something happening to someone you know changes your outlook, no?

I was just talking to my dad about this. He thought America's health care was amazing ... until he had to deal with it first hand ...

[Lex]

25. Exactly. It always does.

nt

[EFerrari]

3. Groups are interesting entities. And, please don't hurt me, Will.

lol

Did Skinner take his user name from B F Skinner?

:hug:

[AZBlue]

92. Especially on the internet, with the anonymity it gives us.

[EFerrari]

97. That's why I decided a long time ago not to be anonymous.

In my case, it made more sense to be out and to deal with that. That's not the right decision for everyone but it's worked for me.

[mike_c]

168. me too-- interesting that you should point that out...

...because it never really occurred to me do do otherwise-- I find the anonymity of the internet a bit disturbing. I've always believed that nothing anyone says is ultimately meaningful unless they are willing to stand behind it personally, or to stand up and say it publicly. We'd all be a lot better off if people spoke plainly and openly.

[siligut]

133. BF Skinner

B F Skinner was an innocent culprit. I get what you are asking, I think it is because of his analytical skill, but I always want to think that David took his moniker from Skinner, the guy who knows, from the X-Files.

I am going to add here, my thoughts on why Cindy had to go back to her life, which will never be the same. She has worked through her grief, as much as possible on the path she was on, she never set out to be a hero or figurehead.

[Texasgal]

4. I am sorry you feel that way Will...

I find it a bit funny that YOU of all people... can sit there and post something like that.

YOU have been extremely critical of DU in the past as well...especially when people don't agree with you.

The Cindy situation will pass, while I may not agree with all the crap that has been said, I for one am a bit perplexed as to why you would post this... especially given your background.

I hope you are not being condescinding... don't...please. I would hate to have people call you out on your message.

[WilliamPitt]

7. I'm well aware of my reputation and history

But thank you.

[Tekla West]

176. There is a huge difference

which few seem to realize anymore - blame it on a failing in our educational system, or a general corrosion of public debate - between a critique of ideas and a personal attack.

What it does demonstrate is that to a large degree, Al Gore is right in his latest effort about the decline of reason, as none of this demonstrates any reason at all. Its not discourse, its amusement.

I also wonder about how many of the people here, and other other 'liberal' boards, are in fact, 'liberals' and how many are in the fine tradition of the American police state 'agent provocateurs'. People who have as their goal to incite, inflame and discredit.

The treatment of Cindy was most shameful. Beyond any decency. In that many posts here were little better then El Rushbo, BillO or Faux news.

[jazzjunkysue]

223. Agreed. No reasons for insults. Serious discussion does not require them.

Cindy volunteered her time and efforts her own way.

We can each criticize her when we've been arrested, insulted nationally, bug-bitten and exhausted like she has.

She did it all for other mothers so they might not lose their sons. There was nothing in it for her.

Politicians deserve whatever comes their way. She doesn't.

If you really believe she didn't help, then just ignore her, but don't posture. Not until you've done as much as she has, and that's gonna be hard to believe.

[Cronopio]

197. Call him on it if you must, but respect the message.

I know it's difficult for many to regard the message apart from the messenger in this compulsively narcissistic and aggressive society we're in, but it's necessary regardless.

Isn't it ludicrous that people can agree on the need for kindness and civility, then depart from kindness and civility in disagreements about how to achieve it? People couldn't be brainwashed into acting more self-destructive than that.

To use some extreme examples: Hitler, Charles Manson, Stalin, etc. were all spite-filled psychopathic sociopaths, but they all spoke some uncomfortable truths to those willing to listen. That's why the regard for truth has to trump reputation, personal foibles and mistakes, everything - otherwise, there is no real regard for it.

If we can't reform our own ranks of cattiness and factionalism, we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that we can reform anything or anyone else.

[Matariki]

5. In some ways it's an aspect of the internet we inherited from tv culture

people aren't quite real, don't have real feelings, etc.

It'd by nice to change that. Like using one's real name - that's one way to start. I think it encourages people to behave with a little bit more civility (sometimes). Also, meeting people in real life from the boards we post on is probably a good thing to do as well - takes things out of the abstract and into 3 dimensions.

[hlthe2b]

21. Agree... the anonymity encourages some pretty rotten behavior..

But, I know I jump to conclusions (and on the comments of others) when we are being repeatedly "visited." The cycles of disruption are probably predictable, but like many here, I often take the bait. In our paranoia, it is easy to misjudge or fail to give benefit of the doubt--not only to the actions of our DEM officials, but our fellow DUers as well.

[Igel]

105. Groups tend to be drawn to the views of the most extreme among them;

it's particularly worse when the groups are anonymous.

Once you start defending somebody that's gotten a bit of criticism, the accusations start flying--Who did *you* vote for? Take a wrong left turn? Maybe you don't *really* belong here, you're not people like we are.

Even if you have fairly solid principles and a grounded sense of morality, it's hard not to be swept up in it.

[SharonRB]

163. It really does help to meet people in person

I've met many DUers over the last two and a half years or so, and it's so nice to put a real person with the screen name. Any opportunity you get to meet people in real life should be taken. I count many people I've met here among my closest friends now, even though I don't get to see them very often.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

6. I just joined (first post)

While I don't have anything against Cindy Sheehan, I think sometimes individuals will disagree vehemently on public figures; and I think it's normal for us to analyze what these figures say.

That being said, I don't think anyone should be put through vicious personal attacks.

[Richard Steele]

14. Well then, welcome to DU!

Hello! :hi:

[davidwparker]

41. Welcome to DU.

[Cha]

47. Good Luck with

your Uniting Students! And welcome to DU..it's an amazing political message Board.

[barbtries]

53. welcome to du

[AZBlue]

93. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Excellent first post!!

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

108. Thanks everyone! n/t

[SharonRB]

165. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[calimary]

217. Agreed, and Welcome to DU!

Very glad you're here!

Now get to work. Help us...

Visualize IMPEACHMENT!!!

And then go DO something about it.

[reichstag911]

260. "That being said, I don't think..."

"...anyone should be put through vicious personal attacks." Oh, I don't know about that, I can think of a couple smug, smirking bastards in Washington who deserve it verbally and physically...and they'd just be a start. :P

And welcome to DU!

[toddaa]

8. Sturgeon's Law

Sadly, it applies to DU as well.

[derby378]

9. You ever get the feeling that maybe, JUST MAYBE, some Repuke is responsible for all this?

Sitting there in his parents' basement, laughing until he pees himself, unaware of the fact that his actions have thoroughly demoralized Cindy Sheehan and earned him a one-way trip to the Ninth Circle of Hell.

Of course, I could be wrong...

[Igel]

106. If a person or group can't admit its faults, it stands no chance of

correcting them. Gee ... that's what dems say about patriotic criticism.

Nah. Can't have any of that applied to us. So let's blame others. Easier that way.

[SharonRB]

166. It wouldn't be the first time a Freeper has caused

major trouble around here.

[senseandsensibility]

10. I hope you share many of the kind comments

that you received on your thread with her. After all, they were in the majority. I know she's probably not thinking or (if she's smart) even caring about what we're saying, but I wish that somehow she would realize that the vast majority of us here support and admire her. Hope she's got her feet up and is enjoying a cold one!:toast: To Cindy!

[helderheid]

11. it is DISDAINFUL.

[InvisibleTouch]

12. It was a bit of a shock to me...

...to realize there are people on the left who are, in their own way, every bit as deluded, ignorant, blind, biggoted, clueless, and asshole-ish as those on the right. Granted there are fewer of them on this side of the fence, but they definitely exist.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Thank you Will

Thank you for this post and thank you for talking to Cindy.

[lvx35]

16. Yeah I've been an asshole plenty of times.

I mean in life too, not just on the Internets. But then I have these moments of clarity where I see the real people behind screen names and people in the news and I feel so much regret. Its an important thing to realize.

[Pale Blue Dot]

17. I was thinking about you today, Will, as I put person after person on ignore.

You and I don't always agree. You and I both get overexcited sometimes and post something that could be interpreted as hurtful. Sometimes I have felt personally attacked by things you posted, even though I am sure that was not your intent.

Yet I have never even considered putting you on ignore. You know why?

You listen. Sometimes, when necessary, you say you're sorry.

The people I put on ignore today never do either of those things. It's as if they come to DU completely sure of their opinions, and feel that their only duty to DU (and to themselves) is to share their wisdom.

You know those people who post and post in a flamewar until they have the last word? THEY are the ones I have on ignore. Even if they share my opinions.

We all have flaws. We all make mistakes. I've made a ton. You've made some. Cindy has made some. The three of us have all learned from our mistakes and moved on.

I no longer trust anyone who thinks they have nothing left to learn. Those people have nothing to teach me.

[Horse with no Name]

23. What is funny

Is that I haven't seen many of these attacks everyone is talking about.
I wonder if it is because I have a lot of repeat offenders on ignore already...

[Raksha]

120. Very true. I never thought about it that way, but you're right.

I no longer trust anyone who thinks they have nothing left to learn. Those people have nothing to teach me.

Those people who think they have nothing left to learn are just grandstanding and feeding their own egos. They have nothing to teach anyone.

[Kajsa]

188. Finnfan, I was given some great advice many years ago,

by a dear friend and mentor,

He said,

" If you find someone who thinks he knows all there is to know,"
" run like hell in the opposite direction!"

:hi:

[Horse with no Name]

18. As I said earlier

My Granddaughter has been in the hospital since Saturday but we spent a great deal of time at the office on Friday.
I am not entirely sure of what I missed, but I am glad I missed it.
I personally have not stood out in the hot August Texas sun in a ditch forcing a conversation about the war when nobody else wanted to talk about it, so I haven't earned a say.
BUT, I defer to the many DU'ers (including yourself) who stood out in that sun with Cindy--the ones who got to know her. And love her.
I defer to you and the rest can KMA because Cindy started a conversation in this country that nobody wanted to have.
I applaud that. She was the catalyst that turned the country around. IF it wasn't for Cindy, I don't believe the Congress would have changed hands because nobody would have been talking about the war because NOBODY made them talk about the war.
I sincerely hope she is well. The last pictures of her that I saw showed her looking weary.
She needs some time to heal.
She has EARNED her rightful place in history and her son would have been proud.
I would think that of all places, DU would respect that. But sadly, they don't.
Give Cindy my love and support when you talk to her.:hug:

[midnight]

40. Hi Horse with no Name. I agree with you about Cindy creating

a dialog that the media and politicians didn't want to have.... Sorry to hear that your grand baby is in the hospital. I hope all get better, and she gets to go home soon.

[Horse with no Name]

56. Thank you!

She is home today and feeling much better. I have to admit, she scared me.
Fevers over 105...her feet and hands turning to ice, legs and arms turning blue...as a nurse that terrified me. Her oxygen levels were 82-83 when we first got to the hospital. She stopped breathing several times while sleeping...so you can be assured she'll be sleeping with me for the next month or so. She hasn't eaten since Friday, but she has drank some fluids tonight. Eating will be our goal tomorrow.
She currently is directing me to re-style all of her Barbie's hair.:)It is enjoyable to watch.
Thank you for your kind thoughts.:hug:

[jtrockville]

19. Do keep us updated from time to time....

Cindy is such an inspiration to me. I will always cherish the picture of her with my son at Crawford in 2005. I met her several times since, at Crawford, or in DC. Just being in her presence gave me hope and courage. She is such a strong, yet gentle, woman.

I wish her the best.

[Canuckistanian]

20. In the end, nobody benefited

The anti-war movement didn't gain any more respect.

Cindy never got credit for the work she did.

The smears were somehow more validated.

Nice job.

I hope at least that Cindy has read our subsequent thoughts.

[KoKo]

75. The whole country benefited in ways that you can't see now...but maybe

one day you will. Cindy was the first to stand up and confront the Bushies when they still had some approval and most of America was asleep ignoring the millions who marched to stop the Iraq Invasion and the marches afterwards (which were baredly covered by any News Media). Cindy sat in that ditch in over 100 degree heat to flag down our "Emperor," when no one else would have dared to do it...let along think of it. She and the hearty volunteers (many DU'ers were with her and so was Will Pitt) braved that Texas sun in terrible conditions to stand up and defy Bush and his War and the killing.

She will be viewed as a hero when the Dimwit P-Resident's history is written as she is to all of us who knew what she meant to those of us who were against Iraq Invasion from the beginning because of the lies and are still against the killing to this day. I met her when she came to NC and she is a very real and down to earth person with lots of heart and soul. But, she'd have to be superhuman to not burn out from the stress of it all. I think that the Vote last week was the final straw for her. She had worked so hard with many volunteers and even started the Peace House in Crawford. All of that and in the end she thinks...what was it for?

She needs a break and we will see more of her when she's rested. What went on here on DU about her was enough to make many of us want to just pack it in and leave it, too. One didn't expect to come here on DU and see the insults and snarking remarks made against her by folks who know nothing about her.

[Canuckistanian]

85. I just meant DU's role in this

I have no doubt what she meant to the country.

Even if you don't agree with her methodology, at least she inspired a dialogue.

And that's an interesting theory about the Iraq vote. I think it's got us all wondering.

[tavalon]

155. The end?

We aren't there yet. And whatsmore, Cindy will get the credit of history. A few people dissed her in the last few days but history will record her in the same league with Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King. And funny thing, she didn't get into it to go down in history, she got in because it was the right thing to do, but still she has already earned her place in history.

I don't know how long it will take this war to end but she started its end by sitting in a lowly ditch in a pissant little Texas town (I'm from Texas and have been to Crawford so don't anybody get all pissy on me for calling it a pissant little Texas town, I could have said much worse). That is hers and no one can take that away.

[Big Pappa]

22. Or maybe

she deserved some of the criticism. And for the posters here that are comparing her to Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King, give it a rest.

[Horse with no Name]

24. When do you start your tour of duty?

Just curious.

[Big Pappa]

42. My tour lasted 20 years and 21 days.

It also included a trip to Panama in 89 and 5 tours in the ME. Thanks for asking.

[Horse with no Name]

46. Not in the mood to be TS'd today

So I will keep my thoughts to myself.

[TwilightGardener]

50. Thank you for your service, Big Pappa.

[Big Pappa]

62. I always like it

when someone volunteers me to do something when they know nothing about me.

[TwilightGardener]

65. Hey, the war ain't over! Get back in the game, Sergeant!

;-)

Edit to add: or, Sir

[Big Pappa]

67. No way!

That is a young mans game. I just turned 41. Although I think the Military recruiting are taking people up to 45. Thats just damn insane. Thanks George.

[TwilightGardener]

73. I hear ya. My husband's been in (AF) for 15 years--he's 37, and he thinks he's

too old for this shit too.

[Terri S]

131. they're all too old.... or too young...or too human...or, pick an adjective...

they're all too______________ for this shit!!!!!

[buff2]

72. Oh Khrist.....

he probably never served a day in his life.You can be anyone you want to be in front of a computer.

[Buzz Clik]

84. deleted.

[ellisonz]

107. Uncalled for.

[AngryOldDem]

143. So, who are you?

If we're all a bunch of bullshit artists, then why are we here? There's a test pattern on a TV somewhere that we could all be watching. It would be a more productive use of our time.

[PVnRT]

144. Wow

A new low hit for the Cindy supporters. Or maybe not, these kinds of accusations (trolls, disruptors, Freeper infiltrators, DINOs, DLCers, etc.) have been thrown around here by them for some time.

[SammyWinstonJack]

167. ...

:eyes:

[Kajsa]

190. How would you know--

one way or another?

This thread is about people like you.
Your words say it all.

[buff2]

245. I don't know......and neither do you.

I could be a doctor or a fireman or a lawyer. Do YOU know which one I am? And no,my words DO NOT say it all. I expressed an opinion which is unheard of in DU. :sarcasm:

[Kajsa]

248. My point- No one knows for sure.

It's going on trust,
something you seem to have a problem with.

Interesting that out of five posts that called you on
this you only responded to this one.


Opinion my foot, you called someone a liar, in a round
about way.

[buff2]

252. Listen up,dearie.........

I have another whole life other than getting in pissing contests on DU. I don't have the time to sit here and answer each and every post.If you don't like my responses,then put me on ignore. I can assure you,you mean NOTHING to me and it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least. Try to have a good evening and get that chip off your shoulder.It's very unbecoming indeed.

[Kajsa]

254. Whatever, my dear.

Have a great evening.

:hi:

[buff2]

255. Can't we all just get along?

Geez......the fighting in this place has been awful. What is it with us,anyway? It must be a combination of the weather,personal problems and most of all GEORGE BUSH and his band of thugs! I think everyone is worn thin over the bush nazi policies and the destruction and toll it has done on this country. My apologies for snapping at you and everyone else. I think I should take my own advice and "get the chip off my shoulder"....eh? LOL. Seriously Kajsa.....have a good evening and I will try to do the same. :hi:

[Kajsa]

258. I agree, buff2.

The latest betrayal by our Dem leaders was the last straw.

I am sincere in wishing you a good day and great weekend.
;-)

:hi:

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingMeemie]

140. I think you need to look at your own words in this thread.

You've done the same thing, by telling people to "give it a rest". A free country we live in, in part thanks to your service. Now, let's keep it that way.

[Big Pappa]

235. yes maam!

:yourock:

[hunter]

159. The Air Force sucks.

It should be abolished, and those who are not corrupted by it dispersed among the Army and Navy.

Have a nice day!

:hi:

[Big Pappa]

236. Yeah only slightly better

than a Jarhead.:rofl:

[Big Pappa]

90. check your pm

n/t

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Big Pappa]

89. ok.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

99. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

32. Criticism is fine. Nastiness, trashing isn't.

No one is purely good or bad, no black and white but shades of grey. Anyone who puts anyone into black or white, give it a rest

[Big Pappa]

43. I agree.

n/t.

[Downtown Hound]

51. Some of you really just can't stop can you?

Why don't you just give it a fucking rest?

[Big Pappa]

78. Maybe you should tell Will

not to post on a subject you no longer want talked about.

[Downtown Hound]

83. No, I do want to talk about what Will said

But I don't want to argue with you Cindy haters anymore. Will's post was about healing and hearing from someone that we all care about and find out that she is doing well. It was also about all the nastiness that we've seen over the past few days. And then there were many responses that further helped the healing along.

So what the fuck do you decide to do? Jump on in and start the shit all over again. Don't even bother lecturing me on your right to post or respond or whatever. You came here looking to start shit. You knew that your post would generate these kinds of replies, and don't even try and deny it. Dare I call you an attention whore?

Like I said, there's been enough of that shit going on, and that's not what this thread is about. So like I said, why don't you just give it a fucking rest? Plenty of other Cindy bashing threads around, and believe me, by now, we all know how the fuck you feel about her. It's not like you need to keep reminding us.

[Neecy]

86. This is the MO of what we've been dealing with

Someone who's been here only since January but has racked up almost 800 posts in that time - mainly hijacking threads like he's done here.

Apparently we're helpless against this type of invader and we just have to put up and shut up while they trash us *and* drag down DU's reputation in the process.

[Big Pappa]

115. I so happy you

have been here longer than I. Does that somehow along with my postcount(you mentioned both) make you superior? And having "racked up almost 800 threads mainly hijacking". Wrong again, the subject was Mrs. Sheehan and thats what I posted about. But thanks for your concern.

[PVnRT]

145. Yes, anyone who disagrees with you is an "invader"

Give me a fucking break.

I've been here since April 2001. Am I an "invader" too?

[Neecy]

175. oh, stop the drama

I'm specifically talking about the handful of relatively new posters who have hijacked almost all of the Sheehan-related threads. Period.

[TwilightGardener]

180. "Hijacking" a thread is taking it off-topic--disagreeing with the prevailing point-of-view

OF THAT SAME TOPIC is not hijacking. Apparently there is a mandate that I was unaware of in these threads, that all posters must come up with some safe and socially approved version of the same sentiment, over and over again. Boy, that makes for an interesting discussion. Kind of like reading all the various signatures on a "Get Well" card for someone in your office. You get to read the occasional creative "personal touch", but everyone's pretty much saying, "Get Well Soon."

[Big Pappa]

88. Hmm. ok.

Will leave at that then. Goodnight.

[sojourner]

81. or maybe you don't know much

[Big Pappa]

91. No more than the next person.

n/t

[ellisonz]

104. Fuckin' Right.

More like Malcom X, heart in the right place, ineffective. I mean, Cindy Sheehan did not, I repeat, did not, convince the nation that this war is a lost cause.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

112. She got the ball rolling.

She had the stones to not only oppose the war, but protest it at a time when support for the war was still high. She has more guts and courage in the tip of her left pinky than most people have in their entire bodies.

BTW without Malcom X, MLK would never have been able to accomplish what he did. Without Malcom X, MLK would have been the extremist.

[Divine Discontent]

191. what???

you know, which dirty HOLE next to Cheney's did some of you crawl out of to make such incendiary right-wing assaults on her? "Ineffective"...

well excuse us, Mr. Ellison, why didn't she just get the heck out of your way as you sat out in the heat protesting and making heartfelt speeches against the war, while watching the plummeting support for that war dip down over the years of protesting you did, or is it because she's 1000x the leader and that's why she was in the position she was in? Because she made an EFFECTUAL difference on millions of Americans hearts in her own way, as ultimately the branches of gov't have to end the war. She helped foster a debate over the war that has led it to being dubious to support it still, and I and millions like me, who support her valiant efforts are evidence of her effectiveness. The leaders who 'fight' the best are the ones that never take up a weapon. They invoke the spirits of a nation to stand up one by one in an honorable cause.

The only thing "ineffective" is this drivel coming from the fingers of some of you so called progressives. The next one of you who wants to say Cindy is an attention whore, ineffective, or just wanna call her a name like "Toots", reach your arm up to your mouth, insert your fist into your mouth and bite down HARD...


GOD BLESS CINDY SHEEHAN FOR DOING WHAT EVERYONE, INCLUDING ME, SHOULD'VE BEEN DOING, WHICH IS MARCHING AND SPEAKING AGAINST THIS WAR IN THE MANNER SHE HAS - IF WE WOULD'VE IT'D BE OVER - SHE IS A HERO, AND I ASPIRE TO BE AS IMPORTANT IN THE FIGHT AGAINST IT AS SHE WAS!

[dogday]

201. She convinced them that it was not what

they thought it was... She put a face on the death of one soldier.. Her Son...

Not ineffective at all, very effective... I can mark that as the turning point in public polls about the war very clearly......

[conscious evolution]

128. She is every bit as important as Parks and King.

Even more so than Parks in my opinion.
Rosa was part of a group that was looking for a way to bring attention to the issue of racism.
Cindy started as a lone grieving mother who just wanted a good answer as to why her son died.
Rosa was working for change for a specific group in a specific region.
Cindy speaks for everyone the world over who has suffered in this insane war.

[PVnRT]

147. Oh please

So now the anti-war movement is on the same level as those who fought against our very own American apartheid system. This is just the kind of cult of personality bullshit that turned me off about Cindy in the first place. I don't even blame her so much as the sycophants that surrounded her, determined to make her into the Christ of our generation.

Please, tell me, how many Iraq war protesters have been lynched? Jailed for no reason and subsequently beaten? Taken into a swamp and shot? Let me know.

[ComerPerro]

181. Thank you. My God, it is getting insane

[conscious evolution]

208. 'So now the anti-war movement is on the same level '---bullshit.

The antiwar movement is on a much higher plane.This war affects every person on the planet.And if the freakin fundies get their way it could extinguish every life on the planet.
Apartheid and segregation suck,no doubt,and there is no room for it in a civilized society.But in a hundred years of it how many lost their lives?10,000?50,000? This war,in only 5 years,has claimed over a million lives and left millions more homeless and destitute.
5 years.
1,000,000+ dead.
With more to come.

[WildEyedLiberal]

222. The height of hyperbole - good god

Oh my God your post is impossible to take seriously. The Iraq war effects "every person on the planet"? HOW? It could "extinguish every life on the planet"??? Every man woman and child on the planet earth dead because of the Iraq war? I can't even believe I'm reading this.

Oh, and "one million dead"? I'd sure like to see some documentation for that. The worst case scenario estimates I've heard are around 600,000. Do you think that isn't enough and that you must dishonestly conflate the death toll to make the war look that much worse omgz?

Nice way to minimize the struggles and deaths of civil rights activists, though.

[durrrty libby]

211. Putting someone's courage on a sliding scale is ignorant

and crass.

[hunter]

240. Everyone knows the dead in Iraq don't count.

Just our American boys.

:sarcasm:

So, please tell me, IAmJacksSmirkingRevenge, how many Iraqis have been lynched? Jailed for no reason and subsequently beaten? Taken into a swamp and shot? Let me know.

God Almighty... are you blind, man? It's the same old beast, in a different setting.

[fishwax]

172. wow.

She is every bit as important as Parks and King. Even more so than Parks in my opinion ... Rosa was working for change for a specific group in a specific region.

Jesus. :eyes:

[TwilightGardener]

174. Rosa Parks was a middle-aged lady, unaccompanied on a bus, with no

supporters to help her, no entourage, no sympathy, possibly no one to step in should an angry mob become violent--and she alone literally, physically defied hundreds of years of entrenched hatred. THAT is the true meaning of PHYSICAL courage. Not to detract from Sheehan, but I agree with you. The comparison is not apt, and is watering down Parks' great and historic moment as to almost render it meaningless.

[Kajsa]

220. Rosa was speaking for people of color.

I don't think the message was limited to people in the US.
The entire world heard her message.

And she did so alone with no backup and supporters around.
Blacks were beaten and/or killed for much less given the time and place.

She risked her life not moving from her seat.

How can you compare the two?

[conscious evolution]

224. She had support.

She was a member of the Montgomery NAACP.They where looking for a test case to challenge the Jim Crow laws of the time.
And,yes,she did risk her life.
But so has Cindy.Anyone who speaks truth to power is at risk.
Another thing to remember.The enemy has learned that they don't always have to physically kill someone.They know that charecter assasination can be equally effective.(Ask Howard Dean.He could tell you a thing or two about that.)And in Cindy's case it has worked.
They have wounded her soul.

This war has taken her son and wrecked her marriage.
How can you not compare the two?

[Kajsa]

233. They both fought for what they believed in.

They are both courageous, dedicated women.

I was pointing out that Rosa was alone at the time
she asserted her civil rights. I know she worked for
the NAACP. But there was no one with her at the time
she refused to give up her seat.

[LanternWaste]

136. Sometimes there's a very large difference between...

Sometimes there's a very large difference between valid criticism and out-right petulance and name-calling. I don't think Will is bemoaning the fact that people were engaging in analysis of Mr. Sheehan's endeavors, rather I believe he was upset that many of those engagements devolved to a mean and base level

[buff2]

26. I was crushed when I read the outrageous posts

in here.....I thought for a minute I had mistakenly clicked on the FR website.I support Cindy and I understand how she must be exhausted. I don't know of anyone else who would give up their time...their life, to fight for us like she did. I hope she gets the rest she deserves. Many,many thanks to her for standing up to that moron in our White House.


It was really disappointing to find out how many jerks call themselves DU members. It made me want to puke buckets to read how savage and cruel so many people in here are.Tell her not all of us in here are back stabbing hypocrites.I admire Cindy for her courage and for speaking out about how her son.....and thousands of others have died FOR NOTHING. God bless Cindy.
:patriot:

[Patsy Stone]

27. I'm happy she's happy

Thanks for posting that.

And I missed the whole thing here, so that makes me happy too.

[hlthe2b]

28. Will, does Cindy know about the open letter Skinner posted?

I know she must realize that the comments she became aware of represented only a few, but somehow it feels important for her to get some confirmation of that and that she is truly supported here.

[leftofthedial]

29. Cindy is a true American heroine

period.

The criticism of her here has been despicable.

[Cetacea]

31. Anyone notice that the minimum wage was increased?

First time in two decades?
Too positive I guess.

[Forkboy]

39. Yeah,it was so great that Kennedy,who has fought for it all along,still voted NO.

Pick another thread to piss in.

[buff2]

45. Yeah........more money to put in the gas tank.

FUCK BU$H.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salinen]

33. Cindy

was too real, and therefore, the attack dogs (who specialize in destruction) chewed her to pieces. Cindy is us. She's not slick, or dresses cool, or knows all the cliched lines that propel one unto the Media stage. In fact, she's the only personality that really represents us. So they skinned her alive. And I feel skinned too.

[Gregorian]

34. We all must keep our perspective. This whole thing is about WAR.

What is an adult, but a child with a few years under their belt. A sophisticated animal. Our minds wander from focal point to focal point. Few are conscious and restrained enough to see outside. Whether through suffering or inspiration.

This is about death. About war. There is nothing here but sadness and loss.

I put this behind me. I look at the bloody mess that is left.

What have they done. And where will we go from here.

[Double T]

35. It is time to move on and let Cindy get her life together in peace.

[davidwparker]

36. Yes, it is sad about the left now criticizing Cindy. I believe it was her

letter that said it all (paraphrase): When I went after the Republicans and Bush, I was the darling of the left. When I went after the Democrats, then I got attacked. Cindy has the courage of her convictions and it didn't matter who was standing in her way.

Here, Ralph Nader gets the same treatment. He has the courage of his convictions and for a while has been pointing out there's not a dimes worth of difference between the two parties. The Republicans are having an anomaly now with *, but if someone like Hagel or a Goldwater Republican were in office there's not a dimes worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats. The Democratic leadership had a mandate in 2006; they apparently want war too.

What her letter has done for me is make it difficult to vote in 2008 for anybody other than Gore, Edwards, or Obama. I will not take whoever the Dem leadership chooses. If Hillary is the nominee, I will write in Gore -- even if that means a Republican is in the WH.

The Democratic Party needs a purging. It is, on the whole, spineless. The netroots needs to prune the tree so that it can grow again to its best in the spirit of Jefferson and FDR.

[info being]

123. DU is divided on one major issue:

Those who seek truth and those who only care about Democratic Party power.

[Horse with no Name]

153. Truer words were never spoken

and I believe the DLC and DINO's have contributed to that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

183. Amen to that!!

How true, how very true!!

[Endangered Specie]

189. you better believe we care about Democratic Party power...

"Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

[SeattleGirl]

37. It's been mighty ugly here today. Mighty ugly.

I don't say that because I think everyone should behave the same way, or think the same way, or have the same opinion on somthing as everyone else (that would make us Republicans, huh?). But the level of meanness, etc., that I've seen posted against Cindy has just astounded me.

Cindy isn't a saint, but damnit, she's done more than many people have to stand up and speak out against this illegal war/occupation, and I admire the hell out of her for what she's done.

I'm glad you were able to talk to her, Will, and like others, I hope you were able to let her know that she has many, many supporters here on DU.

[orleans]

38. glad to hear you talked to her, and that she is okay. n/t

[IChing]

44. Thanks Will for the update and brother

we need to carry on this battle for Cindy.
Swiftboating is occurring on all levels from the other side.

[Nictuku]

48. Happy Birthday Casey

Casey was born on Memorial Day in 1979. He would have been 28 years old this year. What a bitter pill for Cindy to swallow.

My heart goes out to Cindy, and all survivors of this terrible invasion/occupation/murder spree.

[roamer65]

49. Cindy spoke the truth...

and I will forever appreciate her for it. I hope she gets the rest she desparately needs. Thank you for everything you have done, Cindy!!!:hug:

[nam78_two]

52. The posts that really get me are the ones about her being an "ineffective" activist

Its exactly what you describe here:

Now, she's just another ping-pong ball to be batted about in our catty one-upmanship games here, our interpersonal cross-post-flamebait poo-flinging.


It is couched as "constructive" criticism but its such bs.
Seriously anonymous handle on DU, please feel free to get out and dedicate all your time to the anti-war effort the way she has and be more "effective" at it :eyes:. I also notice that the very active, anti-war activists on this forum aren't the ones doing the arm-chair criticizing. I am very grateful to all the citizen activists who are dedicating the time and efforts to this that I am not doing right now. I am not going to sit around on my butt posting on some forum and then preach to them about how they should be doing a better job
at something they are doing voluntarily, and something that is very difficult to do.

[stellanoir]

54. Bottom line. . . a feisty lady lost her eldest child. . .

Ahhh he was assured that he could be a chaplain. He ended up being a mechanic .

Not having a malevolent bone in his body, he was summarily killed from the get go.

Feisty lady started a movement and inspired most of a nation to see the colossal injustice in all of it.

As I stated in your thread last night I just wish she had just said "Mission Accomplished" but she's far too genuinely sincere for that sort of facetiousness really.

Hopefully she will heal up and be stronger than ever. Regardless of what she chooses to do. She did more than most are capable of. Let her heal.

She moved the collective to see that this war is all wrong. If only we had truly representative leadership, an honest media, and accountable voting systems.

Alas. . .

Hope some uber wealthy financier buys her property for far more than its worth. And honors her selfless sacrifice and furthers her cause with more money than sense. And a heart that reveres and resonates with her selfless sacrifice over these years. Yeah I know. . .silly me. But it would possibly be totally cool.

It would not only be cool to reward her for her selfless sacrifice and further her cause of helping vets but as an aside could start a theme park of Neocons and illustrate how utterly dangerous they are for a truly free society.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

55. It's why I didn't donate to DU this quarter

The negativity over EVERYTHING has overwhelmed the message that many of us want to get out. I rarely post anymore because I feel dirty by even reading some of the threads, let alone posting.

If you talk to Cindy again soon, let her know that there are a lot of people who completely understand her and are happy for her.

[EFerrari]

64. Maybe you need to develop a personal spam filter.

Sure, people go negative here, get emotional, whatEVER.

But DU is a wonderful community and by now Cindy must know that the vast majority of us stand with her.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

246. If it was single instances, that would be an easy thing to do

I have a thick skin, I can take it. But, the entire atmosphere has become so negative that it's almost physically painful to see us eating ourselves alive when there's plenty of conservative bones for us to gnaw on.

If that negativity spreads to real life and infects strong people like Cindy it shows a systemic problem. Maybe I'm part of that problem. I dunno...

[Buzz Clik]

95. I donated. No regrets.

It's a shame that Cindy Sheehan found herself in the DU crosshairs.

But, this is situation normal -- we beat each other up with impunity. Hillary, Barack, Dennis, and all the rest get blasted every single day.

The difference, of course, is that the professional politicians essentially volunteered for the duty. Cindy, on the other hand, has a different calling. We've not done a good job of recognizing this.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

247. And I'll donate again next quarter

But the negativism has gotten so bad, I think something should be done about it. I guess my measly $30 or $50 doesn't mean much in protest, but I don't really have any other way of showing my protest.

If the negativity gets cleaned up, I might make a large donation next quarter ($500+). I'm not optimistic...

[mzmolly]

57. Just noticing?

;)

[Blue_Tires]

58. ttt nt

[Neecy]

59. thanks for the update

Glad to hear she's sounding well.

There are maybe 8-10 people here fanning the flames who won't quit. Before you call out all of DU over it, look over the threads (nauseating work, I agree) and you'll see the culprits. Most of us here sick of it, too.

[rucky]

60. Not "alot of people"... about 5% n/t

[Madspirit]

63. k&r and thanks...n/t

[countingbluecars]

66. The attacks on Cindy have been awful.

I wonder if DU will ever feel the same for me. I am having a difficult time understanding why such repulsive threads were allowed to flourish on a progressive site.

I am glad that Cindy sounded happy when you talked with her.

[Downtown Hound]

68. And so many repulsive posters

I saw threads where half the respondents were alerting on certain individuals, and yet they're still here.

[VelmaD]

69. Well, all we can do...

is try to learn. Seems like you have a lot to think about.

I've been kinda taking a break from DU myself...but if you need anything, pm me. :hug:

One of the signs of being a grown up is the ability to empathize. To really see other human beings as just that...thinking, feeling beings. To take their perspective and feelings into account. Even people you don't know. For years I have firmly believed that most people in our culture don't really ever make it out of adolescence, that most people don't really grow up. That they very rarely care about anyone but themselves and maybe a few close friends and family. Our culture doesn't really seem to encourage empathy.

We have this mass communication culture now...but it doesn't seem to be bringing us closer to each other. We too often don't really communicate. It just gives us a space to air every idiot thought we have. There isn't a "real" person on the other end anyway. So it doesn't matter if we say something vile or cruel. *rolls eyes*

Ok. I'm getting really down now. If you need me...

Pax

[tlsmith1963]

229. The Republicans Started It All

And this society has become mean-spirited, cold & cruel because of them. We have never been a perfect country, but I seem to remember that people were more civil to each other when I was younger. Oh, if we could only go back to those days...

[JackDragna]

70. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

DU is one of the largest U.S. political forums. With so many people coming here, you're going to get all types, from the polite to the angry to the vindictive. Part of getting along here is learning to ignore the lunatics. There is nothing like the internet to provide cover for those espousing ludicrous opinions, or even to give opinions in which they don't really believe simply to garner attention. Focus on the good and you'll be fine.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

71. A lot of people are really messed up, Will.

DU has it's share of great, good, mediocre and ugly people posting here. Not unlike my, and I imagine your, everyday life. The only difference is that the ugly people aren't usually as vocal or pushy in our real lives. A few are but not nearly the volume as what one sees on the internet. Also, we have more control over them in our real lives. I mean, who goes out for a show or drinks with someone that you know to be a total ass, right? Yet we come here and waste time dealing with people who are total asses. I'm guilty, I did it today. I've done it before and I'll do it again. It's not my favorite thing about me though, that I have to admit.

I'm very happy to know that Cindy is doing well and that she was happy about being home. In the end that's what really does matter. Not a bunch of BS posted on some internet message board. I wish her all the happiness that the universe can offer her. Most of all I wish her peace.

I guess I should just be happy for her and stop defending her honor like a rabid terrier. I'll make an effort, but I won't make any promises.

Thank you for the update on how she's doing. It was appreciated.

[BlueIris]

74. .

[hyphenate]

76. We do it to our enemies

Why wouldn't we do it to our friends? :sarcasm:

Seriously, we like to pretend we're better than the other side, but the lynch mob mentality is inherent in us all, and ultimately, we're all the worst for pretending we aren't the same.

I'm no saint--I've delighted in slamming people in the past, and I've owned up to being particularly nasty to the religious right, PNAC and the * regime. We're supposed to be nice to the people on "our" side, because they're supposed to be our friends. When we take up arms against such people who are on our side of the tug-of-war rope, we are only giving our enemies more power, more opportunities and more grist for the mill. If we ARE supposed to be "better" or, at the very least, more civilized, how is it that we can sling such invectives as to make our enemies actually appear tame at times?

It might be hard to remain above the fray at times, because we have been abused as a political party for too long, but perhaps Forrest Gump had it right--if we can't say something nice about someone, we should say nothing at all.

[Dinger]

77. I Have Always Admired Her. I Hope Her "Retirement" Is Temporary, And

she finds happiness, love, peace, etc. She deserves so much more. Will, if you talk to her again soon, please tell her that Dinger sends her best.

[BlackVelvet04]

79. This is my first and last post on this issue.....

I have to say I have been appalled by what I've seen on this site today. I didn't comment pro or con for Cindy because I didn't want to feed the beast of hysteria.

I once thought that the left was comprised of those who were kinder and less judgmental.....guess I was wrong.

And that's all I've got to say.


Peace

[GenDem]

80. I'm ashamed

This is our face that we have spit in, because she represents us. She's the one who did all the work, made the ultimate sacrifice, put herself out there to fight harder than any of us ever have. I only hope that there will be some good to come out of this.

The war is the one thing that we should be united over, and we can't even treat the one human being brave enough to start the dialog and ask the questions with the dignity and respect that she deserves.

A sad day for us.

[july302001]

82. It's not a new thing around here

This is hardly a new thing on this board.

There has been way too much leeway given for "bashing" type of language and name-calling.

Witness how Southerners have been treated around here for the last 4 years or so. The Southern-dissing has let up somewhat in the past year, but it was frankly oppressive back in '03 and '04 and '05...until Katrina hit.

Everybody loves to laugh at bad things happening to other people...until it's their own friend (in this case) or family or on an overwhelming scale (like Katrina). Then, it hits home.

The mod's have been working on some issues lately. I give 'em credit for that, which is why I rejoined after a hiatus of a couple of years (lost my old password/handle). However, there are still some problems, including a lot of language that I wouldn't want a 5th-grader or 6th-grader to see when he/she wanders into the room with a question about their homework.

The only way to deal with it is to have a few more rules about language etc.

[Oilwellian]

87. If only....

all of the world had the heart of Cindy Sheehan.

[magellan]

111. Now *that* is a beautiful thought!

One to sleep on. Thank you. :)

[zalinda]

94. For what it's worth

There are 10's of thousands of people reading these forums, but there are only maybe a thousand or so that post with any great regularity. Of those thousand, maybe 50 to 100 (at any given time) come off as irrational, cruel or just down right disgusting with their comments.

There are other of us who try to bring so sort of sanity to the board. It kind of reminds me of the old druggie days when we would have at least one person stay straight, in case anyone started having a bad trip. Most of the time that babysitter would be me.

I don't know Cindy, but anyone who would trash a mom who has lost her son to an insane war is not a very decent human being. I have no idea what I would ever do if it was my son who was killed. Just the thought of it and I feel rage, pain and a feeling of emptiness that could very possibly swallow me up. I commend Cindy for getting her life back, as the saying goes "There but for the grace of God go I."

zalinda

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. William she did what she needs to do

she needs a break.

And wheher she comes back or not, it's her decision

But I agree, damn I am glad I have missed all the ahem, excitement today

[flvegan]

100. So then fucking start a war here, Pitt. WWMD

What Would Machiavelli Do?

[LittleClarkie]

101. As much as we might try to kid ourselves that we're different

Certain behaviors reign on the internets.

This place is no exception.

It has it's moments, mind you. But often enough we forget that the person on the other end of the keyboard is a human being, and forget to talk to them as if we were face to face.

[Scout1071]

102. Welcome to my world Will.

It is why I rarely post at DU anymore.

[ninkasi]

103. Good

She certainly deserves a chance to heal, and have a measure of peace in her life. I guess one of the most absurd talking points by those who for some reason dislike her, was that she was just seeking attention. What earthly good does it do when you feel passionately about something, to avoid attention? Getting attention to your cause is what an activist does, isn't it? Pain, and grief, are etching so plainly on her face. She's only trying to stop other people from suffering the same bitter loss she has had to bear.

Thanks for reporting that she is happy, and for now unburdened by the attacks of people she has tried to help.

[tjwash]

109. I know. It sucks that the "graveyard rats" have crawled out from under their rocks.

The sad fact Will, is that this is just what the bastards always count on. They can just simply wait, and sit it out. They have all the time in the world. Meanwhile, those with a shred of conscience are drained to the point of despair and exhaustion.

I'm sad that she's given up, but I can't say I blame her. Here's a couple of videos that really sum it up. I would like to see one, just ONE of these cowardly, potshot taking, keyboard warriors that have shown their true colors here, sit through HALF of that one interview without crapping their drawers and running back home to their mommas house with their tail tucked firmly between their legs. And she lasted months and months and months without a break.

Most people, even here on DU, have formed their impressions of her solely based on sound bites and photos from the corporate media, which had first framed her as a brave little soccer mom, later as a propaganda device of the left, and later still, as she got more of a following that demanded attention- a determined crank. The thing that is still sad, is that there are still those here at DU who have no clue whatsoever that Sheehan was more articulate, intelligent, and cool under pressure, and had thought more critically about the American situation under Bush than most of us here can even do in a lifetime, and still absolutely refuse give her credit for it.

The thing that really is infuriating to me as well, is to see people debating and grilling her personality, and not the issues that she was bringing to the forefront of everyday conversation. Too many of her so-called "critics" even here, at the bastion of anti-war thinking here on DU, have gone the the cowards way, and verbally attacked and chipped away at her personal life and character. That's how her detractors beat her down as well. It's not because of anything necessarily wrong or flawed in her message or approach, it's just that they are simply ignorant of most of what she accomplished, and symbolized.

Anyway...long story short...I'm sitting this one out as well.

[ellisonz]

110. Cindy Sheehan is but a feather in the wind.

ALABAMA 427 58 485
ALASKA 92 15 107
AMERICAN SAMOA 35 6 41
ARIZONA 551 85 636
ARKANSAS 376 45 421
CALIFORNIA 2672 361 3033
COLORADO 419 49 468
CONNECTICUT 210 25 235
DELAWARE 40 13 53
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 20 3 23
FLORIDA 1147 138 1285
GEORGIA 735 101 836
GUAM 20 6 26
HAWAII 106 17 123
IDAHO 230 26 256
ILLINOIS 952 125 1077
INDIANA 534 72 606
IOWA 291 42 333
KANSAS 320 37 357
KENTUCKY 411 58 469
LOUISIANA 512 73 585
MAINE 173 17 190
MARYLAND 360 67 427
MASSACHUSETTS 414 56 470
MICHIGAN 811 135 946
MINNESOTA 433 53 486
MISSISSIPPI 231 45 276
MISSOURI 586 60 646
MONTANA 192 18 210
NEBRASKA 194 38 232
NEVADA 158 29 187
NEW HAMPSHIRE 160 19 179
NEW JERSEY 391 57 448
NEW MEXICO 228 28 256
NEW YORK 1198 150 1348
NORTH CAROLINA 663 80 743
NORTH DAKOTA 77 14 91
NORTHERN MARIANA ISLANDS 0 4 4
OHIO 1056 145 1201
OKLAHOMA 409 52 461
OREGON 409 55 464
PENNSYLVANIA 1109 167 1276
PUERTO RICO 165 29 194
RHODE ISLAND 97 11 108
SOUTH CAROLINA 313 47 360
SOUTH DAKOTA 102 17 119
TENNESSEE 506 74 580
TEXAS 2425 312 2737
UTAH 207 19 226
VERMONT 90 18 108
VIRGIN ISLANDS 8 5 13
VIRGINIA 594 98 692
WASHINGTON 752 70 822
WEST VIRGINIA 171 19 190
WISCONSIN 486 73 559
WYOMING 81 9 90
25349 3445 28794

http://icasualties.org/oif/WndByState.aspx

[Swamp Rat]

113. Thank you Will!

:thumbsup:

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[man4allcats]

114. Regrettably, there is a loud cheerleader contingent at DU,

and the cheer of that contingent is "Either you're with us or against us, and even if you're with us, don't say anything we don't like!" DU is a political forum and a damned GOOD ONE! It is NOT a football team. The cheerleader squad tends to forget that. In forums, ideas are exchanged. There is no need and no place for name calling and derision. I will; however, break my own rule and succumb to name calling in this instance. Cheers, Cindy! You're a saint and a heroine! Casey would be proud of his mom and rightly so!

Ed Frank
Houston, TX

[SPKrazy]

116. Glad to hear she is faring well,

and great post Will

I agree, it is all too damned easy to fire shots online without thought of consequences of who is being fired at. I think that the corporate mass media has perpetuated that as much as anything, along with the history of the internet, this idea that anonymity makes it okay to attack.

I'm guilty of it, sure as hell. I'm also aware of how it can hurt.

It's all too easy to think of it as sport, but when it really is affecting people (and everyone who posts here is presumably a person)and it does, then one has to think differently of it.

:thumbsup:

:hi:

[Rex]

118. People pay attention when it gets personal.

Not unusual behavior. The only thing I've learned about GD is 'anything goes'. Seen it here for years. And yes, I've participated in some of those horrible things too. Not an attack on Cindy, sorry but can't go there - she lost her son.

People need to let her be.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

119. Welcome to the desert of the real.

Funny how the real world never seems to mesh with one's concept of the Ideal.

C'est la vie.

[Renew Deal]

121. I remember a comment from the 2004 election.

It was around 3am EDT. Kerry was going to announce his VP the next day. The NY Post had leaked that Gephardt was going to be the candidate. Some guy at an airport leaked that Edwards name was on the airplane.

Some DU'er asked "Will DUers argue over the VP choice."

Some other quick witted DUer commented: "Will the sun come up tomorrow?"

One DUer or another has targeted everyone and everything including you. It's the nature of DU and DU should be unapologetic. I squirmed when people went after the Pope, Reagan, Ford, and others that have recently died. I kind of have a problem with shitting on warm graves. Many here don't. You know that. And yes, you now know Cindy. Cindy is deserving of legitimate criticism as much as anyone. The personal stuff should be off limits.

[info being]

122. The problem is that lots of people here are still overly influenced by propaganda

Anybody criticising a figure like Cindy Sheehan is watching too much TV and is a bit too plugged into the mainstream culture. These folks can be called "moderate Democrats" or whatever...but in any case they don't really belong on DU.

The other way to look at it is that we are a community which welcomes even those which don't totally agree...in the hopes that we can influence their thinking over time.

Another point, I've often felt the pressure about Party Loyalty at DU...and the people who criticise Cindy are the one's who are most loyal to the Democratic Party. So in a way, you guys have created a partisan environment slightly intollerant to free-thinking...which is what Cindy represents. DU is divided along these lines, in my opinion....those who seek truth and those who seek power for the Dems.

[Marrah_G]

141. That is a disturbing idea.

You talk about free-thinking in the same post where you also say someone who critisizes (not rude personal insults, there is a difference) a person you like doesn't belong here. She may be your idea of perfection, but there are other people who find some of the things she did not very helpful. That is their right to their own opinion on a DEMOCRATIC FORUM.

I want this war over yesterday. I have "skin in the game". I simply disagree with a couple things her group has done. The fact that anyone here would find voicing those concerns such a grievious offense as to suggest we shouldn't be here is one of the most un-progressive, un-democratic things I have seen here.

In your view, it seems that free thinking is only okay when the conclusion are the same as yours Anyone who deviates from that is trying to create a partisan enviroment. That is a very disturbing thing to see here and something I would not expect to see here.

I respect Ms. Sheehan. I don't always agree with her and I will be vocal when I do disagree. I would also fight for her right express her opinions freely.

People here need to take a DEEP breath and relax. People here are GOOD people. We are all on the same side. Yes there will be differences in opinion and you have to respect. Realize critisism does not equal offensive language. Let the mods deal with the truly insulting posts.

[Individualist]

170. Well said, info being

No doubt there are some actual moderate democrats here, but all too often "moderate" is a label used by republicans pretending to be democrats.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TornadoTN]

157. Bingo.

Seems like he's very good at that.

[Hekate]

125. Yeah. And I keep seeing this one name over & over starting "polls", asking specious questions...

...about Cindy. What is the point? What did she ever do to these people?

I can't claim to know her as well as you do, having only barely met her at Arlington West. But our local chapter of VFP has strongly supported her ever since she showed up here at AW that first Mother's Day after she lost Casey.

Mind if I join you in that pub for awhile, Will? This trashing of a good woman is making me sick to my stomach, and I can't believe this is happening at DU.

Hekate

[LibertyorDeath]

126. This site is infested with trolls and fuck ups

They're usually one and the same....

[donheld]

127. I here ya Will

I hear ya.

[madokie]

129. smilling here

I'm proud to say I had no part in it ;-)

[bridgit]

130. please stop dropping her name for a while...

[sendero]

132. There is a lot of...

... free-floating anxiety around here, and it gets directed at any viable target.

I've been guilty myself from time to time. But I'd never say a bad word about someone who's done more than I could ever do, even if I didn't agree with her every statement or action (actually, I do agree).

DU is a computer message board, and it only rose above this humble fact for a short period of time somewhere around 2003.

[ScreamingMeemie]

134. We all deserve better than that, Will. When you look at it from that

angle. :(

[Missy M]

135. I admire Cindy Sheehan for her courage and devotion.....

to ending the war. What a tremendous undertaking it was. Being from a family who lost loved ones in another war, I know one thing, as a mother you never get over it. My best to you Cindy and hopefully we will hear your voice in the future.

[Ganja Ninja]

137. While I admire Cindy and wish her all the best ...

I'm a little offended that she tarred us all with the same brush. I'm sorry that a few people here said some offensive things about her but that's what happens when you put yourself out in front of a national movement. People have opinions and they aren't all the same. The attention whore comment was someone's opinion and it wasn't shared by the majority of people here.

[Hobarticus]

151. I just don't understand any of this...

With all the viciousness thrown her way for years by the right-wing attack machine, someone makes a comment on DU, and she cites us as the cause of her retirement?

That just sounds odd to me. I don't know if I'm so much offended as I am preplexed. Lots of voices are here on DU, and I haven't always agreed with her but I respect her, and I think anyone would agree that for the most part she's respected and admired here. The woman has courage and strength to spare. I can't believe there would have been a single straw that broke the camel's back, and it came from here. I can't believe that's really it.

It just doesn't make sense.

[Missy Vixen]

138. I've said the same in a PM, Will

>But damn, look at yourselves, at us. I have been looking for two days now at all this, and if the behavior about Cindy is reflective and representative of how we do things, we shouldn't feel anything besides embarrassed. I'm embarrassed.<

I posted the same thing three weeks ago over a less popular subject. I gave to the latest fundraising drive, but to be truthful, I need to really rethink my involvement.

In the meantime, I hope the break is helpful.

Julie

[ScreamingMeemie]

139. I know that feeling Julie...

It's why I cut back. And I used to be one of the staunchest, Things haven't changed people.

[Missy Vixen]

149. It's good to see you, MrsGrumpy

I hope that everything is great for you and your family.

I am so relieved to read your comments. If you're feeling it, too, I know it's not just my imagination.

Julie

[La Lioness Priyanka]

142. while i personally have never said anything negative about cindy, people have the right to criticize

her. she is, by her own choice, a public figure.

the idea that a public figure, is beyond criticism, because it could hurt their feelings is ludicrous.

people had every right to not like her tactics.

i personally didnt care one way or the other, but will defend those who criticised her.

[jonnyblitz]

146. jumping her shit just because she criticizes DEMS is kind of

pathetic, though, especially when they deserve it and I DO care that people in the DEM party can't take criticism and have to personally attack somebody on our side just for that reason, especially when the DEMS claim to be for ending the war and their actions speak otherwise. that's lovely you support "free speech" though. I look at this more than a generic free speech issue.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

150. its not so much a free speech thing, as a specific response to the OP

not saying something hurtful about a public figure, because it can cause them pain, is silly.

just like not criticising the dems when they dont do enough, is also silly.

if you are in the public arena, people will criticise you, even people who are supposed to like you. just because we are DEMOCRATIC underground, doesnt mean we should let the dems get a free pass. just because we are progressives doesnt mean we cant criticise progressive activists.

[durrrty libby]

215. What is the point of criticizing her? God damn it. Her son was

murdered in this useless fucking war.

People suck

[La Lioness Priyanka]

256. people can criticize the tactics of a political activist, whether their opinions are right or wrong

its their opinion and they have a right to express it.

[tlsmith1963]

230. Cindy is Right

We have to be able to criticize our own party, too. If we can't, we are no better than the Republicans who voted for Bush twice because they can't think for themselves.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

257. cindy is right, we should be allowed to criticize dems, but the flip side is we should also

not be chastized for criticizing her.

if someone thought her actions were detrimental to her cause, i might disagree with them, but i dont think its wrong for someone to express this opinion.

[zippy890]

148. 'sad and gross and petty' is unfortunately true about some people

but the majority are not. It is times like this we look to people like you to bring out the better sides of us and take the higher ground, and you did a great job with that post about seeing Cindy last March. and with this one, thanks for talking to Cindy, for looking out for her and letting us know how she's doing.

Lets all look past what is sad and gross and petty amongst us.

thanks for everything you do, Mr Pitt

[Vinnie From Indy]

152. I salute Cindy as a mother, activist and patriot!

I hope she gets her well deserved and needed rest.

[On the Road]

154. I Still Can't Believe Anyone Can Attack Cindy Sheehan

she did everything a human being can do and more. The torch gets passed. These things don't last forever. People's emotional resources are limited. You could argue that her stepping back is a result of success -- the country is on her side in a way that it wasn't when she started. There are plenty of people with more influence speaking out. It hasn't gotten us out of Iraq yet, but it's past the stage when a knot of protesters is needed simply to make headlines and draw attention to the issue.

[durrrty libby]

216. I don't understand all the deplorable nastiness from so-called anti war

people either.

I've lost respect for many. Honestly, they make me sick

[On the Road]

239. I Mean, Jesus Christ, Man

she's her own private person, she had a terrible family tragedy, and she's devoted several years of her life energy to this struggle.

That puts me and most of us here on DU to shame. Whatever bones I might have to pick with some of her choices pale by comparison with her enormous contribution.

[femrap]

156. Glad to hear that Cindy is feeling better.....

I know she'll be back helping lead us on the path to Peace.

It's amazing how low some of the Left can be....IMHO, a lot of it stems from misogyny/sexism. Some men can't bear a women Leader. I bet Cindy would agree...she knows how patriarchy works.

[michael.098762001]

158. What happened to all the $ raised by Crawford Peace House?

Claimed 501(c)3 status for months before they actually applied.
Crawford Peace House hit by strife

By ANGELA K. BROWN, Associated Press Writer

CRAWFORD, Texas - With allegations of money mismanagement, threats of court action and some members leaving, a group that has sponsored war protests in President Bush’s adopted hometown has been anything but peaceful.

The Crawford Peace House recently lost its corporate charter with the state, and a former member who now has rights to the name is threatening legal action because the group continues operating.

Sara L. Oliver and some others are calling for a state investigation as to why only $14,700 is now in its bank account, saying tens of thousands donated during Cindy Sheehan’s 2005 war protest are unaccounted for.

“There are people who have said, ‘Don’t say anything because you’ll hurt the peace movement,’” Oliver said. “But if the peace movement isn’t pure and transparent and holy as it can be at its heart, then it’s just like George Bush: lying, thieving, conniving, backstabbing bastards.”

John Wolf, who co-founded the Crawford Peace House in 2003 in a two-bedroom, one-bathroom white-clapboard house just across the railroad tracks from downtown, denied allegations of wrongdoing. He said the claims were by only a few people and would not hurt the work of the Crawford Peace House, which is planning a fourth anniversary celebration Sunday.

He said the Peace House has an accountant and has kept diligent records, which soon will be posted in its Web site. He said most of the $285,000 raised in 2005 was spent on food, van and bus rentals, gas and a large tent for the rallies at several events.

“All of this money was given to us to take care of people who came here, and that’s what we did,” Wolf said Friday. “If somebody has fantasies, I can’t affect that.”


=======================
EDIT: COPYRIGHT.

PLEASE POST ONLY 4 OR 5 PARAGRAPHS
FROM THE COPYRIGHTED NEWS SOURCE
AND ALSO PROVIDE A LINK TO
THE NEWS SOURCE PER DU RULES.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

185. The 2005 report is on file for public inspection

You'd know that if you'd bothered to look.

http://crawfordpeacehouse.org/cphdocs/crawford%20peace%20house_05n_CC.pdf


I'd love to say nice try, but truth is it was lame as hell. Do you people never research anything?

[FourScore]

160. Will, sometimes this place reminds me of family reunions...

Big and neurotic. Hurtful and egotistical. Warm and fuzzy. Full of secrets and tattletales. Exhausting, addictive and wonderful. Yet in the end, it offers a sense of community and a strong sense of belonging.

As my mother would say, we should never forget our manners. There are times when people (myself perhaps included) shoot too fast from the hip. I hope those who are guilty of that at least regret it later. I know I do.

Yes, Will, I agree with your post 100%. And I am glad you wrote it. I am also glad to see you recognize your own responsibilities on this forum, and that you can be so retrospective regarding your own actions. I, for one, hold you in very high esteem. I consider you to be a leader and a very smart man. At times, though, I have shaken my head at the immaturity and/or callousness of your attacks. They've never been directed at me (thank God, because that would hurt) but I have seen them being directed at others. It has baffled me that a person of your fortitude could succumb to such silly behavior. Don't get me wrong, most of the time you and your posts are fabulous -- I hold you in high esteem for good reason. But those rare instances when you flare up and attack with such disdain...well, it is quite surprising to those of us who admire you so much from afar. It diminishes you and your work, even if ever so slightly.

We all have a responsibility to ourselves, to Skinner, to our heros (like Cindy), and to each other on this forum.

Thank you for your post. And please, don't ever stop coming to the family reunion. It is what it is.

[Jesterstear]

161. As I've always said, the left is as bad as the right...

As soon as you step out of the line, as soon as you don't support each and every piece of the platform, you're attacked, insulted and ridiculed. Your opinion means nothing, and you're painted as being part of the evil "other side." The Repubs do it, the Dems do it. One more way that both parties are really the same.

Each side can point to ideals and say "we're better because of this," but when it comes down to how they treat people that dare disagree, they're all the same.

[urgk]

184. Excuse me while I hijack this thread for a brief moment.

"One more way that both parties are really the same."

The two parties are not the same. They may share some of the same flaws, and be haunted by the same spectres of personal greed, but that does NOT mean that they are "really the same." That's the kind of over-reaching crap that led people to throw away votes to Nader in the face of two impending Supreme Court nominations. At its base, the Democratic party is one of distributed power and inclusion, the Republican party is one of self-interest and exclusion. Things may be closer near the top in Congress, where power, as it always does, corrupts, but that in no way means that the heart of the Democratic party is as hard to the plight of the poor, to the working class, to the true nature of Democracy.

Critique the Democrats all you want. Write your congressmen and women and tell them they need to remember who they work for. Threaten to vote them out in the primaries if they ignore the best interest of the people they represent. Call them out when they're cowardly, backwards or blind. Vote against them if you feel so inclined. But don't dare call them the same as Republicans. Not until they show the same blatant disregard for human life, the same contempt for the Democratic process, the same ongoing tendency towards putting the political foxes in every henhouse, the same corrupted religiosity as replacement for science and logic, the same systemic hypocrisy, the same love for the Big Lie.

If you want to know the difference, look at what's happening with the DOJ right now. The Democrats don't want African-Americans to vote Republican. The Republicans don't want African-Americans to vote at all.

[Change has come]

193. What a great post

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[SharonRB]

162. Thank you, Will.

All of the fighting won't help any of us or help to improve things in our country. Civility goes a long way, even when you don't agree with someone. No one says we all have to agree all the time, but civil discussion helps a lot more than name-calling and arguing.

I hope you'll stick around, Will. DU is the better for your voice.

[L. Coyote]

164. A lot of people here are really distracted. Or Is WilliamPitt Blemming?

Comparing adjacent threads:

A lot of people here are really messed up. WilliamPitt May 29, 8:30 PM
A lot of people here are really messed up. WilliamPitt May-30, 8:47 AM, 173 posts, 40 recs, 4617 views

Families: Poor mental health care fosters suicide among vets of Iraq war. May 29, 08:25 PM, 1 post, 1 rec, 21 views

----------------
Need I say more. Perhaps.

How is this distraction any different than the multitude of recent distractions, good or bad diversions?
I came up with new vocabulary for this phenom, to encompass both the trolls and the well-meaning.

DU is drowning in BLEMMINGS.

Blemming, noun, a blog lemming, a nuisance person or thread calling attention to and enthusiastic about a distracting topic
Blemming, verb. to distract from important issues with irrelevancies, to blemish or inundate reasonable discussions or fora with extraeous issues

Usage: Blemmings often lead the herd over a cliff to drown in a sea of irrelevancy.

Synonyms, noun: Online ratf*cker, e-provocateur, discussion troll, sheeople herder, the assault on reason, wedgeeezer, scatological besmearmentor :rofl:

Gooooogling blemming: I was surprised to see a usage for "blemming" online. And one so suited to what I thought would be a truly fresh neologism. This from Jan 25, 2004. - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=blemming

1. blemming
To be a nuisance to;
To call attention to;
To be enthusiastic about;
To bring on a trip .....

====================================
It has not been fun to watch. In my view, this recent assault is not without reason. DU has been producing remarkable, instantaneous discussion and perspectives on news events, connecting lots of dots. I see the items discussed on DU in the global press the next day. Being the media the media reads garners this sort of assault. It is a sign of success.

Apparently, the blemmings distracts at about a ratio of 4617:21. That is enought to drown DU's past successes!
Even I had to see what the **** is going on over here, and it is a waste. And, I'm going back to work already.

NOW, read this instead: Can Justice Be Trusted? How can Gonzales be Trusted when Gonzales is a Target?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=995236&mesg_id=1002147

[MrPrax]

202. Yuppers...

I think it started with the intro of the Journals.

Those things simply have brought more 'cheap' party focus on distraction when a lot of the information and posting here used to be amazingly diverse, or as you said it remarkably well

..."DU has been producing remarkable, instantaneous discussion and perspectives on news events, connecting lots of dots".

Pretty statement for a messed up person ;-)

[NastyDiaper]

169. I find that the trickiest part of navigating this place is pushing the loudest ...

...voices aside. Not ignoring so much as performing a kind of histogram-normalization.

I want to hear the message of the meek standing next to me, as well as the outrage on the soapbox.

Having a conversation over the screaming sometimes is tough.


Anyway, WilliamPitt is one of my favorite Journals here. For what that's worth. :web:

[pingzing58]

171. It is honorable to run the good race and fight the good fight!

Cindy is on the noble path and while she rests and finds inner
peace - my thoughts and prayers are with her.  When the torch
is handed on new runners are needed who will be next to take
up the cause of peace and compassion.  Or can it still be all
of us at the DU?

[maggiegault]

173. I Will Say This...

...I wish that everyone at DU could extend Cindy the same amount of love, sympathy, and support you all showed me and have continued to show me as I navigate my crushing grief for my brother.

The only thing worse than losing a sibling would be to lose a spouse or a child, and to lose them in *'s madness makes it all the more cruel.

Cindy is an inspiration to me, no matter what she does. She has shown my family through her thoughts, words, and actions that war is never the answer, and that if you must hate, that hatred must be directed at the right persons or entities. Most importantly, we have learned the importance of basing our lives in peace and love, not fear and hate. If you act positively, you honor your loved one. If you act in hatred, you give into everything * and his cabal stand for. If you act in fear and racism, * wins.

God bless her. She sent me a personal message via MySpace when we lost Andy, by the way, and it meant the world to me that she did that.

[NashVegas]

177. Cindy Sheehan Owes Me Nothing

I'm grateful that she did what she did, when she did it. When ordinary people become extraordinary, they don't sign a paper guaranteeing they'll be a figurehead for life.

[The Backlash Cometh]

178. I've already heard too much on the attack on Cindy, what I really want to know is,

what is the story on the people who attacked her? Shouldn't we start a thread so we can figure out what they were thinking? Are they too young and don't understand the effort and passion that it takes to do what Cindy was doing? Are they too old and just jaded and burned-out? Hell, I'm jaded and burned-out, but I know better than to diss someone on a mission. Are they conservative Dems who are in favor of the war?

What is the story about the other guy?

As for Cindy, she needs to rest up, and hopefully will return to fight again.

[fishnfla]

179. So the ghouls are in the mirror now. eom

[in_cog_ni_to]

182. You talked to Cindy? Has she read Skinner's Open Letter to her? I hope so. I want her to know

there's a MAJORITY here who love her, appreciate everything she has done to stop this illegal occupation and have empathy for what she's gone through after losing her son, Casey.

I've just been ignoring the Cindy hate fest threads. There's a handful of people here who just can't leave the lady alone, for whatever reason. She has fought so hard in last few years and doesn't deserve the crap being flung her way. I don't blame you for being pissed off. I'm pissed off and don't know her personally, like you do.:(

[19jet54]

186. Sorry, I don't get it?

... you are blaming the entire group for the 1% with bad behavior? Or is this control & manipulation of the DU somehow? Cindy is great, but there are over 3,500 suffering moms out there also. Your anger, disgust and attacks need to be re-focused back to the White House Administration, where it belongs!

[Raster]

187. Here's a toast to Cindy Sheehan! She put personal grief and a face to the pain

this war has caused. She was a David against the Goliath mainstream mass media that has done everything it can to keep public grief and public faces from associating with the bush* Iraq debacle. And bringing this evil to light.

Here's to Cindy!:toast:May the good Lord love her and keep her.

Everytime I see the pain on your face because of Casey, I shed a tear and I remember that every day some mother's child is dying--Iraqi or American--in a rich man's war of greed and vanity. And then I get pissed off all over again!

Here's to you Cindy!:toast:Thank you!

[The Count]

192. Too much attention given to the messed up people

It always happens - whenever anyone opposes the junta - on any level - they are trashed - and some of the trash comes from the left. Al Gore. Joe Wilson. Wes Clark. Michael Moore - just a few of the names that recently were attacked on DU as a consequence of their opposition to W (but the reason not being stated overtly as such). I am sure the list is much longer.

I am sorry it got to Cindy so badly.
I also dislike wide brushes "you people are messed up".
Just as I won't give up on all Democrats - but only on the war enablers, I won't join the "liberals/DU-ers/everyone is bad and should apologize for this bad behavior.
responsibility is individual, for one's actions.

[BornagainDUer]

194. Why is it so hard for people

to consider the possibility that this whole flap was perpetuated by freepers and/or a modern day version of COINTELPRO?

In any event they are laughing their asses off.

:eyes:

[pacalo]

195. I hate to put this in print, but...

It's the one aspect about DU that prevents me from recommending it to my friends. I wish I had been here when there were healthier & more constructive discussions between differing opinions.

The crux of the matter is that we are all frustrated and angry from what we have been held hostage to in the last six years, it continues with a Democratic majority in Congress, & our outrage only grows stronger. The healthiest outlet for our anger seems impossible: justice in having BushCo removed & held accountable. The unhealthier outlet -- taking pent-up frustration out on those like Mrs. Sheehan -- has, unfortunately, been most prevalent.

We sit here behind our computers watching from the sidelines how much courage Mrs. Sheehan had in confronting what was wrong. If we all had been beside her, perhaps for one grand showdown on Capitol Hill, one can only imagine what could have been accomplished. We were afraid to sacrifice, but not Mrs. Sheehan. She lost her dear son for the sake of the boy king's ego, her husband, precious years with her children... We need to think about that.

Frustration & anger need to be kept focused on BushCo. They caused it.

[19jet54]

198. I lot my job to Bozo Bush

... sometimes you can enact the most change from within Government. I tried & lost my job to the Bushies machine - but there is still more I can loose, my son, my wife's job and so on. These people are mean and I do not wish to intentionally make matters worse. I support your & Cindy's efforts, but "one size does not fit all". I have served from Nixon to Bush II, have both good & bad things to say about them all, except this last guy - He is rotten to the core! But I am also not suicidal either? Your focus point is right on target! If any frustration, anger, or helplessness spill over to you all, I am sorry!

[pacalo]

225. I lost my job when Reaganomics was put into motion.

My firsthand experience with Reaganomics was when I was one of many field clerks of a large corporation who was laid off at a time when layoffs (in my area, at least) were unheard of. It was when large corporations were just beginning to realize that they could pocket more money for the executives & for the shareholders if they took away a big chunk of the employees' yearly "cost-of-living" raises & chipped away at employees' benefits. Greed, pompousness, & the "me-me-me" attitudes of the wealthy began with Reagan's realm.

Did you work for the government? I bet you could tell an interesting tale about your experience as one who tried to change the wrongs. :hug:

[19jet54]

237. Yep!

10 years Military & 15 years GOV on & off - my last gig was Y2K until just after 9/11 & the Good Ol' Boys could not convert me to a GOP hardliner. Once you become a "whistle-blower", your history even if you are right!

[pacalo]

251. Good for you!

That must have been very difficult for you right after 9/11, during the "you're either with us or against us" indoctrination.

“Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act.” — George Orwell

[libodem]

196. What a heartbreak to see someone drop from exhaustion

I wish her renewal, comfort and respite from the ugliness that has become this great Country's legacy. I literally hate, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeldt, halfwits, Pearle, the whole heinous crew of outright criminals. Cindy, is approximately, my age, gender, ideology, party, and basic prototype. Only braver, bolder, and brassier. God, love her for carrying out the things I would have done in my heart of hearts. She is the part of me, that's is in there, but in the closet. I'll tell you now that she hasn't just stood down, but been pushed down, I feel the lock on my closet door disintegrating. The best thing we can do is come on out. I'm real brave behind my keyboard, sitting on my exercise ball, in my room. i say alot of stuff, you wouldn't hear me proclaim, in public, in threads on DU. My anonymity makes me 100% bolder. Cindy has had her ass right out there. I'm proud of her ACTIONS and have vicariously lived through them. My heart was with her out on those dry thirsty roads around Crawford. Seeing her beaten down brings out the protector and defender in me. I want to fight for her and pick up where she has left off. I don't think I am the only one. I have a nephew who is going back over for his second tour in September. I'm sick about it. I so hoped the congress would end this bogus fiasco before he has to go back. My heart clutches at the thought of it. I am on your side, Cindy. And I think going to Gitmo, to protest was brilliant, too. Be well soon.

[Vilis Veritas]

199. Direct Impact.

Not until the impact of an issue hits close to home for EVERYONE will ALL people gather fully around that issue.

That is the crux. There is SO MUCH MEDIA and SO MANY OPINIONS, there will never again, be consensus (IMO). Too much information. Lots of cake. Yummy creamy cake.

Easier to just eat cake than to try and make a difference.

Peace.

[bbgrunt]

200. I am always amazed that so many here are so

ready to condemn and challenge other posters rather than engage constructively. I attribute that partly to organized, paid professionally engaged disruptors. There is a lot in the black budgets and unaccounted for funds that goes towards the manufacturing of consent and attitude in this country. Most of the rest I attribute to young macho competitive jerks who need to feel superior to others.

It is a rough and tumble place....and it reflects our current society quite comprehensively. One might expect that people engaged in conversation here would be more emotionally advanced---and MOST of them are--but there will always be a need for some to feel superior and for some to find employment.

[loyalkydem]

204. I got a suggestion

Instead of us all and I mean to all the members of DU being angry at each other and attacking a woman who had the courage to stand up to the Republican media machine and most notably its chief dictator, why don't we all take our energy and concentrate it on defeating these republicans come 2008.

Put people in office who will end this bloody war. I'm so tired of hearing my friends telling me how afraid they are that they are going to be sent to Iraq not knowing if they are going to come back. Let's take our anger, our energy, and our frustrations and turn them into something that will put politicians in office who will LISTEN to us, the American people. I got to admit, I been giving a lot of thought as to weather or not I want to continue with Democratic Underground. I really like it here, but I really wish we all just kiss and make up and move on. Some of you bashers act like your doing a service for the rest of us, you're really not.

[Broadslidin]

203. A Quiet Ms Sheehan Retirement: Tapped Phones; NSA/IRS Financial Investigations

So,
Public Enemy Number One,
Thank Thee for ev'rything thou hast done,
Blessings on thee, thou noble woman,
For putting this boat of ours on the map.

Thank Thee heartily, loyal woman,
for taking the liner American
For henceforth we'll be crowded on ev'ry run
Due to thee, Public Enemy Number One...!!

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[urgk]

207. "Your shameless self-promotion and self-flattery are what *I* am deconstructing here."

I'm not a particularly religious person, but I do have a good pastor friend who told me a parable the other day that I think applies (Aesop's fable-like) to your comment. The parable, loosely told goes something like this: A farmer hires a man (or group of men, perhaps, it probably doesn't matter) to get his fields sown before sundown. Time passes, the men work, and the farmer realizes that they'll need help to finish on time. So, he hires another man (or group of men) to help. Time passes, the work is still insurmountable and he hires one more time. In the end the work gets done and the farmer goes to pay the people he's hired. He hands each worker the same amount of money, independent of the time they've arrived. The worker hired first gets irate, demanding to know why, while he was paid fairly, the farmer paid the other men the same amount. The farmer turns to him and says "But..but why would you begrudge me my generosity?"

I know it's not a perfect parallel, and I've probably got the story a little wrong, but why begrudge the OP his friendships? What stake do you have in proving that he knows none of the people he claims to know? What difference does it actually make? What good have you done if you're right and what harm to the over all discourse will you have done if you're wrong?

How does that help us get our country back?

[rec_report]

212. I'll pass along your thoughtful comments to Dr. Rec...

Thank you,
Polar Bear

[WilliamPitt]

214. Oh, Mike.

How long these grudges endure.

:eyes:

[rec_report]

221. Those were his comments.

My own thoughts on the Cindy matter:
I can't believe that people didn't/don't view the *very highly critical* posts against a national peace activist (Cindy Sheehan) as posts made by Freepers, trolls and infiltrators. Ditto the anti-Chavez posts.
To me, such posts should be used as a DU membership filtering device.

My Chavez explanation: If Chavez 'does nothing' against the continual US interference, Bush will have his government overthrown in five pico-seconds. The Bush-Exxon Mobil goal is to steal the oil.

Just my .02.
Polar Bear

[urgk]

238. Now there's a voice of reason.

"To me, such posts should be used as a DU membership filtering device."

There is plenty of room for dissent from within the ranks and from the outside as well without having to accept consistent outright viciousness from any one poster. The hard part would be deciding what constitutes a ban-able offense.

[rec_report]

244. Well, I wonder if the people trashing Sheehan were the same people who...

demanded that the posts on DU (a while back) whereupon Jenna and Barbara Bush were called whores should be yanked.
I am guessing that the people on DU who aggressively defended Bush's twin guttersnipes are the same people who are calling Cindy Sheehan a whore.
That's what I meant by 'bannable' posters.
Polar Bear

[shaniqua6392]

206. Thanks for letting us know how she is doing.

She is always in my thoughts and prayers, as are all of the parents of the fallen. She will always be a hero to me. I know people criticized her but she has every right to do and say anything she wants about this so called war. She gave her son and to me that gives her full rights to speak of this war however she wants. I wish her peace and happiness. We will fight on without her right now. We all want this crap to end. Don't let the voices of the few who criticize her drown the rest of us out. We are here and we love her for what she has done. But, we don't want her to exhaust and sicken herself any more than she already has. It has been heartbreaking to watch her get so weary. Thank you for the update on her and we hope she stays well.

[MODemocrat]

209. With due respect Sir, I've been equally offended by Hillary name calling here at DU

yet no one here that I've seen has ever come to her defense. She was referred to as a whore on this forum, andthat made me just about sick. She's been called dumb, and she needs to get her GED, yada yada yada; Yet, I've never heard of Hillary come crying back to DU for the thoughtlessness of some here. She pulls herself up by the bootstraps and goes on.

Cindy did a great job, and I admire her and appreciate all that she has done. She has 70% of this
country who agrees with her on the illegal and bloody war; she deserves a long rest, but, she really
can't just single handedly blame the Democratic Party for all her ups and downs.
:shrug: :cry: :hug: Good luck to you Cindy, in your endeavors.


On edit to correct errors in spelling.

[WilliamPitt]

210. "she really can't just single handedly blame the Democratic Party"

Um.

She didn't.

[MODemocrat]

250. You are trying to belittle me, but it won't work

The Democratic Underground is mostly made up of people of the Democratic Party. The day of the
Press Conference when the Democrats had barely even arrived at congress, Cindy brought her group
in to complain about the war,and they barely had time to put their brief cases down or take off their coat.She was there to let them know she, like the rest of us, wants the bloody war to stop.
It seemed a bit premature, to be interrupting the press conference.

She has more or less denounced the Democratic Party for not stopping the funding of a war which was started by the Mad Men of the White House, and it seems no one can stop Bush, yet the blame has fallen on the Democratic Congress. She's made some mistakes, and she's being criticized. I wouldn't stoop so low as to call anyone a bad name, but I'll always have an opinion.

I'm nearly 75 years old, and I've been to Hell and back,just trying to make ends meet; yet, people still like to criticize me, which is human nature I suppose. You, on the other hand, knew full well what I was trying to say, and you're no doubt a highly educated man, yet you called me out on my use of words or phrasology. Go ahead and poke fun all you want, but my opinion is still the same about Cindy Sheehan. She's done a great job, but she's going to be critized like everyone else.

Claire Luce Booth: "No good deed goes unpunished." :dem:

[koopie57]

213. Did someone say Cindy has hospital bills?

Would it be possible to send money to the hospital to help pay these off? I guess we could send funding to her, but sending it to the hospital wouldn't seem like we were trying to buy her back. I think one of the scariest things in life must be to recover from a catastrophic illness only to be harrassed for the rest of of your life because of it.

[calimary]

218. I really don't understand why anyone would dump on her, or has done so in the past.

What's to dump on, forcryingoutloud?

She's a Joan of Arc to me.

And Will, when you talk to her again, please give her my love!

[Orsino]

219. It's the sound of democracy.

Many voices means you will find some "messed up." If there's a Cindy Sheehan board somewhere, you might find near-unanimous approval for her there, but DU has never been about unanimity. That's for the lock-step freeps.

I don't understand the Cindy-hate, but I do understand bell curves. A small amount is only to be expected.

[SarahB]

226. There are those who make real attempts to make changes.

You know, the kind of person who changes their career to follow their gut and heart. There are those of us who do the best we can within our own lives and respect immensely the people who really takes risks and put themselves out there (Cindy and a few others for example). Then there are the couch potato do-nothings who want to piss all over those who actually take risks and put themselves out there. Miserable fucking people dissatisfied so much with their own lives and their own sense of powerlessness that the only way they think they can have power is to piss all over someone else's work and ideals. Fuck 'em. Not worth it.

[ItNerd4life]

243. LOL. So true,

I usually try to read all posts before posting, but I missed yours and said something similar just a few posts later.

It's the people who want to make change are the first criticized.

[Totally Committed]

227. Thank you, Will....

I hope she is able to find some inner peace now that that weight has been lifted.

I appreciate your letting us know she's okay.

TC

[tlsmith1963]

228. I Haven't Gone After Her

When someone goes through a very traumatic experience like Cindy Sheehan has, I don't go after them because I try to put myself in their shoes. I would never want to experience what Cindy has been through. At least I have been spared. I think that people should consider this before attacking her. I may not be religious, but remember the old saying, "There but for the grace of God go I"? I think that applies here.

[ce qui la baise1]

231. I don't know how it's been in here, but to say anything

bad about Cindy is admitting you don't know her or what is in her heart.
We judge others too easily and we should get back to our true selves.
This country has gotten this way because of Bush, the neocons and
the injustice. God Bless Americans. We need it

[idgiehkt]

232. well,

duh...

Maybe she needed a break. If that is so, then I wish her the best. I am finding the whole thing of indicting DU on Kos to be somewhat seemingly calculated. Maybe this site needs to pick a lane. Maybe it is trying to be too many things to too many people. Maybe this is an oppty to pull back and evaluate.

[hwmnbn]

234. The best news is Cindy is relieved....

regardless of what happens here.

[ItNerd4life]

242. People who want to change the status quo are always criticized

in some way or another. It just comes with the territory.

Most DUers believe you are liberal if you agree with them. If you don't agree with them, well you are criticized.

You wrote an article about how you don't support the 'Fairness Doctrine'. My first reaction was 'hes going to get flamed for not following the doctrine'. If I recall, you did get flamed.

DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY! Once you take the reactions of other people personally (even if they are personal attacks) you will lose! You must arise above the B.S. It's why it is so difficult for change to occur, not just in politics, but in business, relgion, and life.

[Cats Against Frist]

249. Kill me now

I've been gone forever and this same bullshit is going on. I'm usually a detractor of most of the darling causes on DU, not because I am a closet freeper, but because I'm a very public cynic and some of the sentimental hogwash that gets thrown around on here is enough to make the George Bush Prayer Team proud. I can't decide which is the most pathetic point in this thread: when someone pleads with anonymous computer users to not to criticize their (tacky, in my opinion) friend, or when DEMOCRATS clearly come out against honest criticism and free speech, or when identity politics gets pitted ('scuse the pun) against "cult of personality."

I'm sorry, but 'interpersonal cross-post-flamebait poo-flinging' has another name -- it's called "argument," which has a long and rich history and many people who've criticized Cindy and many people who've defended her have framed their arguments in a graceful and logical manner. Many have not, but often times it's pretty entertaining to watch -- one must admit. Anyway, it's more interesting than us all holding a mirror up to our collective vagina and hoping to see Cindy Sheehan's face.

This thread is just one more bout of one-upsmanship. So is my post, for that matter.

[Cleita]

253. A lot of astroturf is being spread these days and too many

of the smarter but crankier DUers tombstoned. I miss this place when it only had 15,000 members.

:hi: Right now I even miss Carlos.

[Generic Other]

259. Cindy's pain is my pain

I can't even imagine what the past few years have been like for her.

But I know that being attacked by your so-called friends hurts a lot more than being attacked by your enemies.

How I will remember Cindy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiJSg_lQlnw