She's a mature, intelligent, witty, attractive, clueless woman.

[trof]

She's the proprietor of two successful businesses.
In her late 50s.
Great sense of humor and just fun to be with.

I should explain that I live in a county that votes 3 to 1 repug.
Most of my friends vote repug, although they don't strictly support the party line on some issues like abortion and gay marriage. Most of them seem to be pretty disillusioned with Bush** now.

They know I'm a yellow dog Democrat and we usually don't talk politics.

Last night we had a small dinner party and she was seated next to me.
While there was some small talk going on at the other end of the table she turned to me.
"So, who do you like among the Democratic candidates for president?"
I hadn't given it any serious thought at that point. After a moment's reflection I said "I guess Al Gore."
A look of dismay came across her face.
"REALLY?"

"Yes, I think he's one of the most intelligent men to run for president in a long time. He had eight years of OJT as vice-president. Clinton made the office more involved in day-to-day policy and decision making than any other vice-president in my memory. Plus, he won in 2000, or would have if all the Florida votes had been counted AND if the right wing supreme court hadn't appointed Bush president. I think Gore deserves to actually occupy the oval office."

Her look went from dismayed to pained.
She actually frowned and winced.
"Well, maybe so. I don't know. All I know is that when 9/11 happened I was so glad to see George Bush standing there. He's such a strong man. I just don't know where we'd be if Gore had been in office."

<sigh>
Where to even begin???
It's daunting task.
How can someone who seems to be so smart about so many other things be so rock-solid, Fox-News-soundbyte STUPID about politics?
This is what we're up against and it's disappointing, frustrating, and saddening to me.
:-(
I'll post my reply a little later.

[BurtWorm]

1. Where does she think we ARE with Bush boy in office?

Does she like what Bush boy has done with his time in office?

:wtf:

[jackster]

2. I can't wait to hear your reply.....

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Warpy]

3. Start by realizing it's not your job to pry open a closed mind

that likes it that way.

If she begins to question things, then you can work on her.

Right now, if you want to keep the lines of communication open, just let her be as ignorant as she wants to be. It's a scary world out there when we begin to acknowledge the truth, and she is probably not ready to face the fear. She has certainty, and that's just the way it is for now.

After all, how do you feel when some right wing robot buttonholes you?

[trof]

34. I can't help it. I have to speak out.

I can no longer just nod and mumble "Yeah, whatever" and change the subject.

I never EVER start these conversations.
I just have to let people know, especially people in this area, that not everybody goes along with the prevailing (local) political beliefs.
And I try to play nice.
;-)

[Warpy]

35. Telling her you don't believe a word of it is one thing

tacit agreement is another, and haranguing back still another.

The last two are inadvisable.

[jedicord]

4. "I like Bush because he has never wavered on Iraq"

From my "discussion" with a friend yesterday. I'm hip to your trip.

[melody]

5. What can you say to that kind of bottomless ignorance?

That's probably 2/3rds of Bush's base -- people who've not thought about anything beyond the surface of any issue.

Besides, if she thinks Chimpy is a "strong man" and Gore isn't, I have to wonder about her ability to judge anything.

[Deep13]

6. It would not have happened with Gore in office.

He would have read the fucking memo.

[JohnnyLib2]

7. Sigh, indeed.

I get these reality checks every so often, also in deep red territory.

It's a painful reminder that not everyone, by any means, keeps up with the news and the world. Propaganda that plays to that ignorance, unfortunately, works. We have to keep chipping away.....

[AndyA]

8. Oh man, how many times have I had this conversation with a GOPer!

I usually tell them that without Bush in office, 9/11 would have likely NEVER HAPPENED.

Oh, they really come unglued over that.

Then we discuss the warnings that were ignored.

The fact that had Bush actually spent some time in his office working in the months prior to 9/11, perhaps steps would have been taken to prevent the disaster from happening.

Then, just to cap it off, I remind them about the poor response to Hurricane Katrina, and how things are STILL a mess down there.

They usually don't have much to say at that point. Slap 'em down with the facts, and dare them to check for themselves (using neutral sources, not Rush Limpballs).

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. 9/11 happened BECAUSE jr was standing there.

[Junkdrawer]

11. Exactly correct: Gore would have gone after al Qaeda, not invade Iraq...

and the whole point of 9/11 was to provide a pretext to invade Iraq/Iran.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

10. The first time I heard that right after 9/11 I walked out of the store.

The next time I heard it I said something like "You may be right because Democrats are so much more patriotic than repubs. Gore came out & said that we had to support bush. No way would any of the repugs or limbo or any of the talking heads have ever supported Gore if he had been Pres when 9/11 happened."

That shut 'em up real fast.

[blm]

12. Gore would've READ the HartRudman Report on Global Terror handed over on Jan 30, 2001.

But then that's how the CORPMEDIA has smeared our best Dems and protected the LIAR-IN-CHIEF - they never bothered to tell the American people about the HartRudman report that Bush refused to read.

[trof]

16. Bingo. Part of my reply to her.

"The WHAT?"
<SIGH>

[blm]

21. And that's what it boils down to EVERY TIME. Media Transmitted Distortion.

This is our nation's most shameful DISEASE that is connected to every other problem it has had for the last ten years.

[crispini]

13. I would have said,

"You appear to be mistaking bullheaded closemindedness for strength." :rofl:

[ellenfl]

14. i had a chance to open a mind last weekend . . . it was empowering

(no, not to the terra-ists). i was at my local county fair and stopped at the veteran's table. even tho' at the time of the vietnam war i was a 'hippy', i have never been anti-troops. the vets had a petition out regarding vet's benefits. truthfully, i can't remember exactly what it was about because i only looked at enough to confirm my signing the petition. i am pretty sure the petition was about funding (that the repugs had cut).

anyway, i spoke with one of the (vietnam) vets who was behind the table. the short of it is, he has always voted republican and i told him to look at the voting records of repugs versus dems regarding veterans' issues. i assured him that he would find more support from the dems than the repugs. i just kept telling him to check the voting records . . . i really think our troops should know who backs them with actions not just lip service.

if nothing else, i put doubt into his mind. hopefully he will do the minimal research and then spread the word.

oh, and i thank du. i am sure the records i saw were readily available to me and readily remembered because someone here linked to them.

ellen fl

[Kerrytravelers]

15. Has she been in a coma since 2000?

She's too dumb to vote.

[Matariki]

17. Forgive my ignorance - what' a 'yellow dog democrat'?

or a blue dog democrat? i must be living in a 'news vacuum'.

[trof]

20. Yellow Dog:

If the Democrats ran a yellow dog for office, you'd vote for it.
I was an independent until the 2000 sElection.
Now, I will never vote for another repug as long as I live.
Ipso facto, I'm a Yellow Dog Dem.
I think blue dogs are conservative Democrats.

[sandnsea]

18. Just heard yesterday 'Bush is a good man'

It's just the people behind him that cause him all his problems. Well he's the one who appointed all those people, so what does that say about him??

I know, it's astonishing that people still worship that pinhead. And still believe the bullshit media manufactured charicature of Al Gore - but they do.

[LeftishBrit]

19. First of all, what does she think Bush did that Gore wouldn't have on 9.11?

Secondly, Bush's policies have killed an appalling number of coalition troops, a much larger number of Iraqis, increased the risk of terrorism, and made the world much less safe. And for WHAT????

Thirdly, I find it infuriating when people treat being 'strong' as the only requirement for a leader. It was constantly used in defence of Thatcher as well - 'at least she's a strong leader'. To which a friend of mine responded, "Well, you can have a strong horse, and it can still pull you off the edge of a cliff!" You could try that argument with your colleague; but I suspect that if nothing has convinced her yet, nothing will.

Fourthly .... well the whole world saw what a strong and effective leader Bush was in responding to the Katrina disaster....

[peacetalksforall]

22. Gore would have brought a priority with him - presiding for the

people - not Halliburton, KBR, Blackwell, Wackenhut, Northrup, GE... (and not AQ Khan, Khasoggi, Mahmoud, and all the other movers and shakers of nuclear parts and money - partners of our current appointed and thieving leaders).

Gore would have dug into the intel.

Gore would not have spent our money the way its been spent and we would not have this crippling debt.

Gore would have read. Gore would not have been a cheap theatrical dispenser of tricks - deadly ones.

They can say it tillions of times - 'Bush is a good man' ...'Bush is a strong leader', but we know the truth - their mouths can move, but they are blinded and not capable of listening.

[trof]

23. OK, here's my reply:

(And please bear in my that she is a very nice, kind, generous woman in most other respects and a close friend. I was trying to 'educate' and not tear a strip off of her, or belittle her, or reduce her to tears. All of which I'm sure I could have easily done.)

"Joan, it's easy to play 'what if', but I seriously believe that if Al Gore had been president 9/11 might not have happened."
"REALLY?" (Big eyes. Incredulity.) "Why do you think that?"
"Have you ever heard of the Hart-Rudman report?"
"No. What's that?"

Oh boy. Here we go. I poured her another glass of wine.
I told her what I knew about it and the years that were put in researching and writing it.
I told her that Clinton had commissioned it a couple of years before he left office and that it dealt with possible/probable security threats to the U.S.
I told her that the report's number one concern was international terrorism, and that Al Queda was identified as the number one threat in that area.
I told her that the report specifically stated that unless the administration immediately got to work on implementing their recommendations some kind of terrorist event WOULD take place on American soil, likely with a large loss of American lives. It was not a matter of 'IF', it was a matter of 'WHEN'.


That former senators Gary Hart (D) and Warren Rudman (R) had brought the best minds available to work on this completely bi-partisan...no...strike that...NON-PARTISAN commission. The final report was ready about the time Bush took office.
I told her about the Bush administration's mindset from the git-go: "Anything Not Clinton".
After several weeks wait the senators were able to get an audience with His Holiness, W.
They presented the report and he basically said "Yeah, OK, thanks." and tossed it on the shelf WHERE IT REMAINED.
He told the senators that he would have Vice-President Cheney conduct his own study and that he, W, would be 'closely involved'.
And Cheney never did a damn thing.
No study, no meetings, no nothing.
And then 'completely without warning' :sarcasm: 9/11 happened.

If Al Gore had been president you can bet your bippy he would have given it the highest priority.

She asked if I could send her some information on the H-R Report.
I said sure and did so the next day.
I haven't heard a word back.
:-(

[TZ]

25. PS- its hard for people to admit they are wrong...

especially so blatantly and obviously wrong. :shrug:

[Jeanette in FL]

31. You have the patience of a saint

I would have started drinking heavily at that point. I no longer have the patience to tolerate ignorance. I wasn't always like this but because of the ignorance of many Americans, we are in the position of where we are.

I like your answer to her.

[trof]

32. Ha. Thanks. 'St. trof'

A couple of years ago I did bring a woman to tears during a political discussion.
I know I was right, and she was not very bright, but I still felt badly.
I've learned to be kinder-gentler since then.

[TZ]

24. I'm related (by marriage) to people like that..

My brother in law is a nice guy but...in 2000 you should have heard him refer to Gore as a "treehugger". It was very contemptuous. I never really understood what was so bad about wanting to preserve the environment specially since he always enjoyed walking his dog in the woods or on scenic trails. Just closed mindedness and stubborness I guess. Although to tell the truth I understand he doesn't like * much but won't publicly admit it.

[TygrBright]

28. When someone uses the ol' "treehugger" as a pejorative...

...around me, I say "Damn' tootin'. Without trees, we'd all be DEAD. And, by the way, do you know how many square miles a day of forest we're losing? I'd rather hug a tree than gasp for breath."

Of course, I usually get the rolled-eyes treatment. But every now and then, I get a mildly thoughtful look.

philosophically,
Bright

[marlakay]

26. Know people like that too

I live in a 60/40 area of Washington state on the east side and the 60 is red. Most people here don't like Gore because of his position with logging and alot of people in this area get their jobs from it. They say you have to have some logging or it starts fires and they know clear cutting is wrong...and they come back and replant. I had long talk with logger.

Hard to fight with those reasons...

But most watch fox news around here and are totally brain washed. I went into my friends cafe the other day and it was on...one of her employees had done it...I immediately changed it...said she wasn't allowed to have THOSE people on! She laughed.

[mitchum]

27. You need to strike "intelligent" and replace with "possesses low animal cunning"

[specimenfred1984]

29. Repukes always frown and wince at the truth

then usually walk away with their heads between their shoulders. Sometimes they start yelling which always ends in a statement about how someone should be killed.

Let therapists deal with their denial and delusions, it's too big of a job for anyone else.

[Zorra]

30. Having well-honed, instinctual animal survival skills does not necessarily

indicate that someone is "smart".

I guess the concepts implied by the term "smart" are relative; but, IMO, if someone were "smart", they would not, and could not, be a republican.

For example, a wolverine has well-honed, instinctual animal survival skills. A wolverine may be the sole "owner" of extremely large territories. They also foul their food and dens with powerful musk so that nothing else can use them.

Another characteristic that wolverines share with republicans is that wolverines also appear to lack the ability to engage in integrated, complex reasoning.

[trof]

33. She is well educated and, IMHO, intelligent.

I think she doesn't question or pay much attention to politics.
She is NOT intelligent in that she tends to parrot whatever the latest teevee soundbyte is.

[otohara]

36. So Strong, He Went AWOL

MIA, gone - hiding out in Alabama vs going to Vietnam.