The notion that tax cuts for the rich will create jobs

[Jackpine Radical]

is total bullshit.

First, if the rich want to squirrel away some money where the IRS can't get it, they can always reinvest it in their businesses and claim the tax deduction. In this case, HIGHER taxes, not lower ones, would provide incentive for business growth.

Second, jobs don't just appear because the rich have a few more millions lying around. They already do. Not millions, but billions that they're sitting on because the economy is too weak to invest in. Jobs appear when there is work to be done. There is work to be done when demand increases. Demand increases when the common people have something to spend. Common people have something to spend when they get either paychecks or unemployment checks.

Extending unemployment benefits will therefore ultimately increase employment. Extending tax cuts for the rich will do nothing but make the rich richer while slowing down the economy and pushing up the deficit for no good reason.

Why the fuck can't Democrats communicate simple notions like this?

[PDJane]

1. They can. They do.

However, the reich-wing noise machine drowns them out. There is an amazing number of Americans who still think that Obama increased their taxes. All they have to do is look at their tax returns to know that isn't true. Therefore, something else is at work, and I believe it's the propaganda machine in full spate.

[GoCubsGo]

36. Exactly right.

People hear what they want to hear. Facts be damned. You can have all the facts on your side, but it still won't matter if people don't believe they're the facts.

[TheKentuckian]

2. They do not desire to because they largely believe in the exact same system as the opposition.

Reaganisim is the "common wisdom" of both toxic parties.

[jaxx]

3. First of all the pubs don't care about the unemployed.

Second, they want those tax cuts extended really, really bad. Remember they go away on January 1st. They aren't holding all the aces.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Well, Hell, I know the Reptilians don't care about commoners.

Why can't the Dems get together on a simple message like this?

And while I'm at it, I'd like to point out that even the supposedly relatively conservative constituencies of the Blue Dogs don't want tax cuts for the rich. Only half or so of rank & file Reptilian voters want them. The Blue Dogs are clearly taking the part of the rich, and can't argue credibly that they are voting in accordance fo the wishes of the majority of their constituencies.

[jaxx]

8. Because the majority of the constituents are ignoring the unemployed.

They focus on the sound bites. The pubs do not want those tax cuts to expire.

If you've listened to the President, he is saying no deal without unemployment extensions. Now, where are the rest of the voices?

[dkf]

5. The notion that $700 billion over 10 years can do much for a budget deficit that is over

$1 trillion a year is also a joke.

The "middle class tax cuts" are going to have to go.

[WestSeattle2]

6. Exactly! If tax cuts created jobs, we would not have double-digit

unemployment. The income disparity in this country is the problem. Until the middle and lower classes (the masses) have money to spend, demand will remain anemic or stagnant. Using the tax code to achieve this is the simplest and quickest way to get the economy moving again. As long as republicans continue to not only block income redistribution, but actively promote income inequality, the economy will continue to languish. Unfortunately, the dearth of leaders and statesmen in our political class makes it highly unlikely the economy will rebound any time soon.

The damage already done to the middle and lower classes in this country is so extensive, I've given up any hope that they will bounce back in my lifetime, and I'm 50.

[Andy823]

7. I agree.

They are sitting on millions even billions and not hiring in order to help the republicans take down Obama! If tax extensions for the rich are extended, and it looks that way, business will start hiring with all the money they are sitting on, and republicans will try and use the "new jobs" the come about as a reason to "PERMANENTLY" extend tax cuts for the rich down the road, before they expire again! I totally agree with you that democrats are not communicating things that need to be brought to the attention of the voters! Instead they let the right wing smear machine take control of the discussion, and then when it's to late to change what the people think, they try and point out their side of things!

The worst problem democrats, and the president, have had the last two years, and even longer for the democrats as a whole, is communicating with the country! They let the republicans use all kinds of lies to sway the minds of the voters, and they stand back trying to figure out should they or shouldn't they speak out! They shouldn't have to think about it, they should go on the offense and stay on the offense from now till the next election. They should do what needs to be done, what the voters "REALLY" want done, and stop trying to appease the republicans in congress!

Now I support president Obama, and nothing is going to change the fact he is a millions times better than any republican president, and this country is far better off with him in charge, but I am tired of caving in to the right and trying to cut deals with them, when it always works in the republicans favor! They haven't tried to work with the president for almost two years, and now they are painting it like it was the "PRESIDENT" who wouldn't work with them! As for the members of congress, well I like the two I have in the senate from Washington state, can't stand my rep in the house, but I also think they, along with most of the other members of congress, need to really start getting a whole lot tougher and stop letting the republicans take control of the issues! If they don't I am afraid that republicans will take over the senate in 2012. I don't think the republicans have anyone that can beat Obama, unless things really go to hell between now and then, but if he loses control of both houses of congress, it will be hell for the country, and the democrats, for years and years to come! I don't think this country could survive another 8 years of someone like Bush taking the country apart piece by piece!

[Jackpine Radical]

10. One point I think you will find incorrect is that the rich

will start hiring if the tax cuts are extended. Not only have they not done so in the last decade in which they have had the cuts, but they are far too greedy to pour money into the lower classes just to screw Obama. The'll just stash the tax money.

[azul]

13. Maybe not. Many fianciers are above the labor problems now?

More money available from less taxes gives them more to invest in risky and wacky schemes and derivatives. It is the boom and bust cycle of opportunity that these sad money-grubbers get so excited about and rich from. Thus so lost in wealth as to be apathetic or oblivious as to the consequences of these failures and to the plight of common people so affected.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. And if jobs do get created, who's to say

that they won't be in China or India or Korea?

[azul]

29. Or in their golf or yacht clubs?

Or kitchens or gardens or security guards?

[Jackpine Radical]

30. The very rich aren't hurting now. They can already afford

whatever it is that they might want. I think there's pretty good data showing that the super-rich simply hoard any excess money that fall into their hands; they don't go out & spend it like payday in the Army.

[WestSeattle2]

17. I don't think they'll start hiring until demand picks up. Tax cuts

for the rich really doesn't address the demand, or lack thereof, problem.

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Yes, exactly.

[spanone]

9. john kerry said it pretty well on mtp today....link

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/40517590#40517590

[amborin]

11. why did Obama cave with the stimulus & devote big chunk to useless tax cuts?

Krugman and others criticized this early cave

[subterranean]

12. That would make a good Letter to the Editor.

Short and to the point.

[Lorien]

15. That would make a good HARD COPY letter to the President and your reps:

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

One hard copy letter = 10,000 emails and phone calls.

[Jackpine Radical]

19. Oh, I'll no doubt circulate it (LTTE, blog) soon.

Right now, I'm watching you guys perfect it for me.

[Lorien]

14. Because the Dems have no leadership and therefore no unified message

a few want to work for the people, but most want to work for the wealthy corporate interests. The division within the party is killing it. Repugs, on the other hand, are lockstep in their loyalties and positions.

[Jackpine Radical]

21. If the corporations own all of one party and half of the other,

then they own 3/4 of all politicians.

And they're advancing. By way of example, Feingold and Grayson have been replaced by the minions of Ghengis Khan.

That's a mind-blower!

[Desertrose]

20. Yup...to all you said! nt

[Jackpine Radical]

22. Thanks for that Bucky Fuller quote, BTW.

:loveya:

That's a good one to remember. We're expending all our energy in opposing when we should be creating something better. How does one sidestep the whole system and start setting up the better thing in a world where the old, corrupted oligarchy conspires to destroy any promising trends in order to cling to their privileges?

[Desertrose]

41. I think we have to be ready when they self-destruct....

We have to have that "something better" ready to go. It IS a waste of time to oppose, I agree completely.(But it is easier to snark on a messageboard than come up with some real ideas...am speaking only for myself here btw.)

I do think the greedy oligarchy is pretty far down the road to self destruction too...their desperation shows no limits these days. Anything to take the focus off what they are really doing. I mean seriously Jackpine, would you ever in your wildest dreams have ever figured the world would be this batshit crazy? I never woulda and I have a vivid imagination. :evilgrin:

:loveya:

[Jackpine Radical]

42. Oh, don't get me started.

I remember a time in my teens & 20's when, even in my little backwoods town, virtually everyone viewed the local fundamentalists as harmless eccentrics. Now half my high school Class of '62 has turned into a bunch of rabid rightwing fundamentalists. I can't even talk to them.

How did it happen?

[Desertrose]

43. My first bf turned in to a MORMON!!!

Yeah...I know exactly what you mean...former hippie treehugger is now a Glenn Beck lover and anti everything that's not right wing!

How DID it happen...Goddess I wish I knew!!!

[Jackpine Radical]

45. I've always wondered--

Why do they spell Mormon with 2 "M"'s

[Desertrose]

46. My thought too...they don't REALLY need that second "m".

dang typos...arggghhhh!

[bobbolink]

23. Economic realities. 1) For every Federal dollar spent on Food Stamps, $1.71 comes back to the local

economy.

For every Federal dollar spent on Unimployment payments, $1.62 comes back to the local economy.

Typically, 615 units of low-income housing is built in Denver every 6 years. The impact to the economy topped %200 million, and 732 local jobs were created.

Learn the REAL facts, and keep repeating them!

[Jackpine Radical]

31. Thank you, Bobbie.

[bobbolink]

40. You're welcome. I would appreciate inclusion of these facts when people write LTTEs, etc.

Most of the population isn't aware of these facts, and think that cutting "entitlements" will decrease the deficits and work out just fine for all of us poor folk.

Given that poverty issues aren't important, we poor people rely on the rest of you to include us.

[Poboy]

24. We have had these tax cuts in place for 8 years. WHERE ARE THE JOBS?

[kentuck]

25. If they were to say it...

the networks would not let them on air.

[Nikia]

26. I think that trickle down economics has been clearly proven false

If putting money in the hands of the rich worked, obviously we would all be financially better off. The fact that the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer, shows that putting more money in the hands of the rich doesn't work. The rich are the ones that are doing better off financially. It makes sense that they should pay more taxes when the rest of America is doing poorly. This isn't about jealousy. It is about taxing people who can afford to pay it.

[B Calm]

27. Customers create jobs, not the fucking rich! I love telling that to my right wing

coworkers! It always stop them dead in their fucking lie about how the rich provide jobs.

[soryang]

28. Use it or lose it, the principle of progressive income taxation

When taxed at progressively higher rates, the rich and corporations will invest their money in tangible capital enterprises. They will do this to seek out business tax deductions and business investment tax credits. They will seek out investments in depreciable assets. Payroll is tax deductible, this is why employment rises during periods of higher taxation but decreases or is anemic during periods of tax decreases. When taxes are progressively increased on the rich, their tangible capital business investments nullify the higher marginal rates while increasing government tax revenues in the agregate by generating commerce, higher employment and real productivity.

When you don't tax the rich they merely engage in hoarding and speculation because there is no incentive not to do so.

[Jackpine Radical]

32. Beautifully succinct. Elegant.

Thank you.

[Cosmocat]

33. The SIMPLE freakin truth ...

We have seen a net LOSS in jobs since the Bush tax cuts ... We saw one of the greatest economic booms from the point at which Clinton got the upper tax rate bumped up to 39 until bush and the Rs got it dropped back down ...

Reality squares with your point, and runs TOTALLY counter to the trickle down meme ...

What does the "liberal media accept as economic fact ???

[bobbolink]

34. If every DUer today would write just this as a LTTE, we would have an impact.

[azul]

35. The incentive is to speculate in financial schemes

that have no downside -the losses are passed on to the taxpayers, that are somehow liable.

"In my opinion, the thing most well-fed people want above all else from their Government is, figuratively speaking, the right to shoot craps with loaded dice."
-Kurt Vonnegut

[Octafish]

37. Red Ink Ronnie really was all about Reverse Robin Hood

And Obama wants to celebrate the sonofabitch?

[mstinamotorcity]

38. Because like everything

else they have let the repugs set the tone of the conversation.It started with the Job creators were not investing because of uncertainty of Health Care cost after Reform,no it was because they were uncertain about Wall Street and Financial Reform,no no wait they are now not investing because of the uncertainty of The Bush Tax cuts and you should not raise taxes on anybody in a recession and unemployment makes people lazy!!!!!!!:sarcasm: And it couldn't possibly be that they are driving down wages while theirs is on the increase. And if they just starve us long enough we will give them what they want. A workforce for 5.00 a day!!!!!!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

39. K&R great point N/T

[RegieRocker]

44. You got that right!!!!