GOP to derail high-speed rail in Florida

[marmar]

via MassTransitMag:



Florida Leaders Say No To Rail Cash

By Jeremy Wallace H-T Political Writer
Sarasota Herald Tribune (Florida)


HIGH-SPEED PLANS: Scott could join other new GOP governors to snub funds

Just as it looked liked a nationwide high-speed rail system was taking off, a backlash by conservatives who now control many state governments is threatening to knock it off the tracks.

And Florida is on the verge of becoming the biggest derailment yet.

Florida has received $2 billion from the federal government -- 70 percent of the total cost -- to build a line from Orlando to Tampa. It is envisioned as an alternative for workers and tourists to the state's often snarled interstate system, promising, roaring along at 168 mph, to deliver them to their destinations in a fraction of the time. ..........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.masstransitmag.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=3&id=13045

[mzteris]

1. same here in WI.

IDIOTS!

Of course Walker's major funders were the road contractors!

[Pharaoh]

18. It is amazing!!!

What a Job boom it would be!!

F,,,,,ing nuts! Guv Walker! :crazy:

[Bryn]

2. Don't let them win!

We need a nationwide high-speed rail system ...

[Lorien]

3. ARGH! The voters gave the State an overwhelming mandate on this

we voted to REQUIRE the State to build high speed and light rail. I-4 is a mess and the high speed rail system is CRITICAL for providing jobs and easing perpetual gridlock. So, are they just going to hand back 2 BILLION dollars that could otherwise be spent on jobs in favor of profit$ for their buddies at Halliburtan and Exxon/ Mobil? (I think we all know the answer to that).

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[nashville_brook]

10. the high-speed rail project is just about the only bright spot in Economic Development powwows

right now. all these "upstanding" GOP developers and real estate brokers i deal with on a daily basis have been drooling over this plan since it was announced. i can only hope there's pressure from these fat cats to Scott to keep his paws off our only bright spot for the future.

but, i'm not holding my breath. really, i want to move the hell out of this state. Oregon, Colorado, Costa Rica...gawd, get me outta here.

[Lorien]

15. You and me both. Oregon, or Asheville, or France, Costa Rica, Germany

New Zealand...I've been fixing up my home for sale or rent so I CAN finally get the f*ck out (and downtown Orlando is one of the better, bluer areas)...

[nashville_brook]

19. i'm out east -- Waterford Lakes area. i like being close to Brevard, which is where i grew up...

i could totally live in Asheville. that city gets cooler by the minute. just had a visit a couple of months ago -- there was a drumming circle downtown. can a city be adorable?

[Mojorabbit]

35. We have drum circles

in Orlando too. There are several. PM me if you would like info on them.

[Lorien]

59. Yep, over at Avalon

downtown is chock full o' hippies, thank goodness. :-)

[Mojorabbit]

61. and at the Dandelion

and orlando brewing. Also one at College Park once a month which also has dancers.

[Initech]

4. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.. this is getting fucking old.

A national high speed rail line would create thousands and thousands of jobs and create a new infrastructure in the process - which in turn would pay for itself hundreds of times over. If the repukes want to block this, we need to get them voted out! :argh:

[awoke_in_2003]

5. damn, this country is so back asswards. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

6. damn, this country is so back asswards. nt

[DavidDvorkin]

7. Interstate highways are much better because

they're built and maintained entirely by private enterprise and the invisible hand of the marketplace.

Er, right?

[nashville_brook]

12. I-4 is the main artery btwn Orlando and Tampa, and most of the time it's bumper to bumper

it starts out in west Orlando at the attractions...lets up briefly around the Lakeland exits, and then is bumper to bumper again for the rest of the way into Tampa.

I've seen the survey crews out there for weeks, and it's been the one bright spot in the whole freaking mess. I can barely contain my anger.

[Lorien]

17. It's a fucking 100 mile long parking lot. And when traffic does move it doesn't stay moving

for long. Between the confused tourists and the crazed locals there's a major accident every frigging day. This was our only hope of ending the madness and getting things moving again!

[NC_Nurse]

8. They elected a criminal. Sucks for them. This is just the beginning of a bigger

Decline for the "sunshine" state.

[Dappleganger]

29. Over 2.5 million people did not vote for that criminal.

It sucks for US because there are no longer any checks and balances on the republican crazy machine.

[flvegan]

9. Which is sad because we have three or four groups interested in helping fund it.

Richard Branson (Virgin Group) being the most recent interested party.

[nashville_brook]

14. what's the status of light rail in Tampa? I know Orlando got the funding for it...

fucking-A this shit pisses me off. this would have meant 10,000 jobs for Central Florida alone -- and the benefit wouldn't stop there. the train would go a long way to curbing sprawl, and encouraging smarter development as the two cities grow in the next few decades.

i'm sickened.

[flvegan]

31. They're currently fighting over where terminals will be.

Everybody wants it, nobody wants to pay for it.

[nashville_brook]

56. maybe once Tampa sees what Sunrail provides Orlando, they'll perk up.

The planned terminals in Orlando are pretty sweet -- I'm especially hopeful for the hub around the medical corridor which is downtown and to the north of downtown. every morning on my way to work i see older people in that awful I-4 traffic trying to negotiate their way there and i think "this is insane." you know, there's always those cars with the older couple, driving slow and unsure...taking an exit, and then changing their mind...then stopping in the merge lanes...and i know from dealing with my parents, that it's just too much for them -- hell, it's too much for most of us "youngsters" trying to get to work.

older people can't be autonomous in a place where they can't get to the services they need. we've got large populations of seniors living in the outer bands of town, who can't drive to even get their prescriptions. my MIL-to-be has the names and phone numbers of the people in her neighborhood who need help getting around, and now that she's retired she helps them by taking turns with other HOA members in getting them to the services they need. this is in the outskirts of Winter Park/University area. it's not the boonies -- but it's just far enough to be impossible for someone who is having trouble driving.

[nashville_brook]

11. "It has become the poster child for government excess," -- Doug Guetzloe, full-time Florida FUCKWAD

10,000 Central Florida JOBS DOWN THE DRAIN.

[AlienGirl]

52. Has he never heard of the Taj Mahal courthouse? nt

[DemReadingDU]

13. newly elected Ohio Gov Kasich said no too

[WestSeattle2]

16. Actually, high-speed rail really doesn't make sense. Granted, the

concept on its face would appear to make sense, however the numbers simply don't add up. Below is an article that explains, albeit briefly, why HSR isn't the best mass transportation investment:

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/10/29/why-high-speed-trains-don-t-make-sense.html#

[marmar]

20. Written by the same Robert Samuelson who thinks social security should be dismantled?

I don't know that I trust his judgement, n'est-ce pas?

[nashville_brook]

22. nice catch.

[WestSeattle2]

23. Sam Staley then?

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/10/13/will-we-ever-have-high-speed-trains/a-national-high-speed-network-in-the-us-is-infeasible-and-not-cost-effective

[nashville_brook]

24. 10,000 jobs in Central Florida alone.

[marmar]

25. A small government libertarian?

Come on, surely you can do better.

[nashville_brook]

26. Revenues projected to top $49 million in the first year alone - with 2.4 million riders.

[WestSeattle2]

27. The capital and operating costs for trains is enormous. Case

in point, the Sounder train that runs from Tacoma to Seattle, Washington. It costs $9.50 round trip. The true cost? It was $34 each way in 2007 - and that's using existing BNSF rails and dilapidated engines that were purchased used - well used. Trains have sex appeal that buses don't, but buses by far, are more cost-effective.

[HuckleB]

32. And what do you think roads and cars, and the time they lose, costs?

Do you really thing they're cheaper?

[WestSeattle2]

37. You just may be surprised.....the subsidy is a lot less

http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=88

I've lived and worked in the mass transit field for decades. One thing is a dead certainty. Traffic flows are like water - self-leveling. Traffic jams get so bad taxpayers demand something be done. So more lanes are added to the freeway, adding more capacity. In a very short time the new lanes are filled to capacity. Taxpayers demand more action be taken. Bus routes are added. Some drivers opt for buses, freeing up some capacity on the road ways. Other bus passengers see that traffic is not so bad now, so they opt to start driving again - filling road lanes to capacity. Taxpayers demand something be done. Trains are added. Bus riders think trains are way cooler than buses, so they hop on the train. There is little improvement in freeway traffic volumes. Bus routes are cut due to reduced demand. Trains, with substantial more capital and operating costs, are now moving passengers that used to be on less expensive buses. The freeways are still jammed.

So now we introduce high-speed rail....for what? To go 250 miles? That's currently a cheap 30-minute flight by commuter plane. But you now want to build high-speed rail lines to accomplish what's already being accomplished with no taxpayer subsidies required? Why?

[csziggy]

41. Which transportation are you talking about that needs no taxpayer subsidies?

Interstate highways? Buses that share those highways with cars? Commuter flights? Those are the alternatives to high speed rail you named.

Last time I looked all those need massive taxpayer subsidies. Yes, high speed rail will be expensive to implement and since we are doing it so late compared to other transportation methods, it costs more in comparison. But projections are that in the future it will be cheaper to operate than the alternatives.

I don't really approve of the Florida high speed rail project because it was one of Jeb Bush's pet projects. I am suspicious of the information that has been released about it and don't believe that it will be as good for the taxpayers as it will for the people who will make the profits off it. But this country needs to explore alternative transportation methods and that I-4 corridor is a prime target for this kind of project.

Jeb Bush's buddies had already purchased the corridor for the high speed rail long before the voters had a chance to approve or disapprove - it was a sure bet that it would go through eventually. If it can be done as an "Obama" project rather than a Jeb Bush one, that could be good if it is successful.

The one advantage of the Florida project is that it can not only serve the local populations, it will also be visible to visitors from all over world. If it is successful, it will be very good for American manufacturers involved - if there are any.

[HuckleB]

53. "The antiplanner."

You continue to use ridiculous sources that ignore huge parts of the equation. Your claim to have worked in mass transit seems dubious, considering your inability to be fully open about the reality of the costs and actual subsidies for all forms of transportation.

[nashville_brook]

55. good point about cost-honesty -- and i'd add that the goal isn't *the cheapest*

the goal is the best and most suitable for the population, environment and economy.

[Jkid]

39. Problem is that buses can get caught in traffic gridlock. Trains don't.

[WestSeattle2]

46. That's what Bus Rapid Transit lanes are for. The train lobby is

relentless in their pursuit to sell more trains, yet the facts just don't bear their cost-effectiveness out. In order to get train sets passed by state or local jurisdictions, train proponents ALWAYS - I don't even need to use a qualifying "almost" always, they ALWAYS inflate ridership estimates and minimize capital costs to the point of being absurd. The on-going operating subsidies per passenger required by taxpayers is almost criminal.

A very good analysis of the bus vs. train debate can be found here:

http://globaltelematics.com/pitf/padelford.htm

Don takes a complex issue and makes it easier to understand. He does an excellent job explaining capacity arguments in the linked article.

[HuckleB]

33. With that mindset, we'd have no Interstate Highway system today.

These guys ignore too much to be taken seriously.

[nashville_brook]

21. there's a world of difference btwn the CA project and the Orlando-Tampa one -- we have the density

and we have a completely non-functioning highway bwtn the two cities. it's such a mess that it's become a problem for business development. thanks for the link -- but it just doesn't apply.

[HuckleB]

34. Indeed.

I never understood the thought behind putting HSR in Florida. It made no sense to me. Go California, go northeast, go northwest, go middle America (Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, Minneapolis/St. Paul), but why Florida?

[HuckleB]

30. Hogwash.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

38. May not be high-speed per se

But getting the Amtrak Cascades working better I think is worthwhile. Thank God the Democrats still control the west coast.

[Ramulux]

43. Why dont you tell that to China and Japan

That article is horseshit.

[terryg11]

51. what?

doesnt pollute, takes fraction of time.
it's not a project you will see monetary returns on in near future. A lot of it's benefits would be seen in environmental areas where returns not as easily measured and by people saving in their pocketbook, which can be hard to quantify except in studies and estimates.

[HuckleB]

28. All right, then. Let's get it going in OR and WA.

I think we've got a train loving population up here, and the spaces to put the trains.

Let's get it going.

[pgodbold]

36. You ain't seen nothin' yet!

Florida has again moved to the right. Actually that is an understatement. Florida has taken a very hard right turn.

I was born in Florida and I am ashamed of the direction the state is moving. Alabama, Texas and Mississippi have nothing on us now.

Our new Governor is a long time professional crook. We kicked a good man, Alan Grayson, out of office. We've lifted up a slime ball named Marco Rubio to the US congress (I'm convinced he will be the GOP 2012 pick).

The car tags here say "Sunshine State". I'm sorry to say Florida is far darker now.

[MadMaddie]

40. Don't you get it? The Republicans do not want any

successful mass transportation credit given to President Obama. They didn't do shit about progressing this country. They want Americans to be absolutely miserable and turn that misery into votes for the Republicans.

My question is how far is too far...I can't believe true Republicans in the state are pleased with this?

[DonCoquixote]

42. what true republicans

The same ones that crowned king Rick and prince Marco?

[MadMaddie]

44. Well you do have a point!

[DonCoquixote]

49. I wish I did not

believe me

[donheld]

45. Maybe Colorado can get some of that money. We could use

a good high speed rail. Governor Hick would probably love it.

[Johnny Harpo]

47. Same Here In Ohio

[moondust]

48. Fossil Fuel Forever Party. n/t

[MrsCorleone]

50. I wish the fine folks in FL good luck.

The Republicans will do all to undermine high speed rail anywhere they can, that much is clear.

These are by far the largest projects in the foreseeable future, bringing thousands upon thousands of jobs and turning regions along and around rail stops into economic hubs.

Republican cannot let these go forward if they want to cripple the economy and, in turn, take power in 2012.

Please, don't let your newly elected 'pubs get away with this. Inform their constituents of any and all efforts to undermine.

[nashville_brook]

54. this thread has been very inspiring...and you're absolutely right. this is worth grappling over.

[DirkGently]

57. Looks like our resident local slime, Doug Guetzloe, is leading the charge.

In opposing rail, newly elected conservatives are able to show they are serious about reining in government spending while also opposing a key element for President Barack Obama's federal stimulus plan, Guetzloe said.

He's a real peach.

Guetzloe was fined $3,000 for election law violations in 1995, and another $4,000 in 2007, but as the footnote states, "Mr. Guetzloe has not paid either of the fines."

http://www.sunshinestatesarah.com/2010/06/more-trouble-for-convicted-criminal.html

Anti-toll activist Doug Guetzloe who was paid $107,500 in hush money by the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority (OOCEA) was today indicted by a grand jury on two counts of perjury, and the man who paid him on behalf of the toll authority Ron Pecora, PR consultant to the authority was indicted on a charge of bribery and providing unlawful compensation. The charges are only indirectly related and are likely only the beginning of a series of other charges in the corruption affair that has unfolded in Orlando.

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/52

[nashville_brook]

58. Guetzloe's modis operandi is to extort $$ in exchange for withholding opposition

he did this with the arena to the tune of $200,000 courtesy of the Orlando Magic's lawyer, Hal Kantor of Loundes, Drosdick, Doster, Kantor and Reed. And he tried to get the Orange County school district to pay him off not to oppose a tax for new school construction.

so, THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE DOING WITH THE RAIL SYSTEM. either pay us off or else we'll kill it.

fuck. they're gangsters. it's a kleptocracy, pure and simple.

[KG]

60. mis-use of resources. intra-city mass transit needs to be developed first.

when you get to orlando, or tampa, and you got no car, then what?

hi-speed rail works where there are alt transportation at the ends of the lines. unlike europe, that isn't so in the vast majority of american cities