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(TSA) UCSF Professors: Low-energy rays do a "Compton scatter"...leaving tissues at risk of mutation

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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 01:52 PM
Original message
(TSA) UCSF Professors: Low-energy rays do a "Compton scatter"...leaving tissues at risk of mutation
Edited on Wed Nov-24-10 01:53 PM by CreekDog
The authors note that this process is "likely breaking bonds," which could cause mutations in cells and raise the risk of cancer.

...The professors point out that many body parts that are particularly susceptible to cancer are just under the surface, such as breast tissue and testicles. They are also concerned with those over 65, as well as children, being exposed to the X-rays.


from the article:
FDA sidesteps safety concerns over TSA body scanners
...
A group of four UCSF professors pinpointed several important differences between the medical X-ray machines and those used in airports. They described the issues in a letter to Dr. John P. Holdren, the assistant to the president for science and technology.
...
Unlike a medical X-ray, the TSA X-ray machines are a sci-fi fan's dream: they are lower-energy beams that can only penetrate clothing and the topmost layers of skin...But according to the UCSF professors, the low-energy rays do a "Compton scatter" off tissue layers just under the skin, rather than the bone, possibly exposing some vital areas and leaving the tissues at risk of mutation.

When an X-ray Compton scatters, it doesn't shift an electron to a higher energy level; instead, it hits the electron hard enough to dislodge it from its atom. The authors note that this process is "likely breaking bonds," which could cause mutations in cells and raise the risk of cancer.

...The professors point out that many body parts that are particularly susceptible to cancer are just under the surface, such as breast tissue and testicles. They are also concerned with those over 65, as well as children, being exposed to the X-rays.

The professors pointed to a number of other issues, including the possibility that TSA agents may scan certain areas more slowly (for example, the groin, to prevent another "underwear bomber" incident like the one in December 2009), exposing that area to even more radiation.
...
The increased surface area and volume of absorption area, plus the frequency with which many people travel, suggests that this use at least bears further scrutiny.
...
However, the TSA does have a potential solution in hand. Of the 68 airports scanning for explosives, 30 are using millimeter-wave scanners that don't use X-rays at all; they hit the surface of the body with safer radio waves. If the TSA committed to using only this type of equipment, it could avoid the safety concerns regarding the X-ray full body scanners completely.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/11/fda-sidesteps-safety-concerns-over-tsa-body-scanners.ars
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. They should ban them from bars
:rofl:
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's only a matter of time
until some "scientific reports" prove that these scanners are completely safe.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. UCSF faculty is one of the most respected in the country. n/t
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Obviously they are terrorist sympathizers
which discredits their work.

:sarcasm:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. I used to fight with them for parking up on Parnassus Ave, lol,
so that may be right :silly:
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I was born on Parnassus Ave!
at UCSF of course.

:rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. So we know your mom found a parking place up there at least once!
lol
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. in 1970!
:rofl:
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Which begs the question: why aren't they using the safer radiowaves
at all the airports?

Who decided to use two kinds of scans, instead of only the safer kind?
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not sure, but the manufacturer spent millions lobbying for these machines
Edited on Wed Nov-24-10 02:05 PM by CreekDog
http://content.usatoday.com/dist/custom/gci/InsidePage.aspx?cId=azcentral&sParam=41288816.story

L-3 Communications, which has sold $39.7 million worth of the machines to the federal government, spent $4.3 million trying to influence Congress and federal agencies during the first nine months of this year, up from $2.1 million in 2005, lobbying data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics show. Its lobbyists include Linda Daschle, a former Federal Aviation Administration official.

Rapiscan Systems, meanwhile, has spent $271,500 on lobbying so far this year, compared with $80,000 five years earlier. It has faced criticism for hiring Michael Chertoff, the former Homeland Security secretary, last year. Chertoff has been a prominent proponent of using scanners to foil terrorism. The government has spent $41.2 million with Rapiscan.

Daschle, the wife of former Senate majority leader Tom Daschle, lobbied against Chaffetz's bill. She said bombs represent a real threat. "I don't think it was Linda Daschle that made the difference" in L-3 Communications' success, she said. "I think it was people understanding what the threat is and seeing these capable solutions."
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Because safety isn't the priority
Profit trumps safety.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Safety theater trumps safety, especially long term nt
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Interesting too that Chartoff claims that he no longer represents Rapiscan.. nt
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. TSA won't tell you which technology is at each airport, either.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Google it and check the frequent flyer sites they have lists by scanner type nt
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. I google and find nothing but sites describing the difference then
linking back to TSA OR frequent flyer sites that are focused on FF programs and miles. Maybe buried in one of their forums, but a quick check of frequentflyer.com forum did not turn up anything. :shrug:
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. "FlyerTalk" is a board that discusses where the machines are
:hi:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. Thank you...will check it out..
:toast:
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. Try "color coded" scanners airports - I found it that way on flyertalk (sp?) can't right now nt
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. ok... thanks
;)
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. The engineer who first told me about this told me how to tell them apart.
I wish I'd been paying more attention. (I'd already decided to go for the pat-down.) I think he said that the backscatter x-ray was two flat panels. I can't remember what he said the radioscanner looked like, but it was different.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. 1mm has attenuation problems
I haven't worked with this scanner technology, but I have worked with millimeter broadcast systems and they get screwed up by air (which is why we can't see infrared radiation from stars very well on the surface of the earth).
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Does that mean there's difficulty controlling the dosage?
:hi:
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Well, in a sense
It's harder to get a readable image so you have to use a stronger beam. The bigger problem is just that it's hard to get workable images, which is why long-wavelength scanning isn't as popular among researchers.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. And yet it's being used at half the airports so the images
must be considered "workable" enough.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-10 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
50. This is why I call this security theater
and corruption... starting to get it?
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. Remind me, why do we have 17 Intelligence agencies?
:shrug:

Can we disband them and throw that money at poverty programs or healthcare or something?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Then how would BushCo launder their money?
:shrug:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Can't they use Wall Street like every other self respecting rich person?
:-)
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. +1
Edited on Wed Nov-24-10 02:52 PM by Maat
Exactly!

I should say that I agree with you both.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. I think the Rapiscan backscatter scanners should be the focus of resistance
people are off the mark with the groping.

Groping vs. cancer? What matters more?

It's only after you've been through the machines that you might come across this kind of information, generally, then you think to yourself GREAT I might have given myself breast cancer, skin cancer or
cataracts.

Of course you won't be able to prove it unless there is a class action suit..
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. But the SAFETY ACT has limited the manufacturer's liability
so...ummmm...

sigh.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. They're covered! Big surprise. Rapiscan is hoisting this danger and also roving backscatter trucks
on the American public. They should be stopped.
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. That was a huge consideration
in their strategy.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. And the Rethugs are trying to end class action suits. n/t
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
26. I have to find the letter to see but I can't even get this to make sense
Though most science reporting is atrocious, so that's not a surprise.

First they say the problem is the "low energy beam"; the energy of radiation is determined solely by the number of photons and their frequency. I'm not sure if they're saying they're using lower-frequency photons or a smaller quantity of photons; neither makes very much sense since both of those reduce the probability of a scatter and we want a high probability (basically, the backscatter image uses the part of a medical X-ray that a normal X-ray goes to great pains to filter out). There's really no such thing as a "low energy X-ray" in itself, except maybe in comparison to an X-ray of a higher frequency.

Now, they may mean lower intensity; a diffuse beam cast over your whole body rather than a tight beam aimed at just the part a doctor looks at. But medical X-rays do definitely exhibit Compton scattering; that's why A) there's a ghostly outline of your flesh and B) they go to a lot of trouble to filter scattered photons out.

Caveat: there may be some sort of sweet spot in the X-ray spectrum that happens to match well with the Compton wavelength of common atoms in the human body, but I've never run across anything like that. I'll have to try to find the original piece the scientists wrote (which as far as I can see the article doesn't link to) since I can't get this to make much sense.
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Link is below the article
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Thanks. I'll take a look (nt)
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. here's the actual letter:
http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf

(i included the text below):

University of California
San Francisco

John W. Sedal, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus
Department of Biochemistry
and Biophysics
600 16th Street
N412D. MC 2240
San Francisco. CA 94158-2517

tel: 415/476-4156
fax: 415/514-4242
e-mail: sedat@msg.ucsf.edu

April 6, 2010

Dr. John P. Holdren
Assistant to the President for Science and Technology

Dear Dr. Holdren:
We, a number of University of California, San Francisco faculty, are writing-see
attached memo--to call your attention to our concerns about the potential serious
health risks of the recently adopted whole body back scatter X-ray airport security
scanners. This is an urgent situation as these X-ray scanners are rapidly being
implemented as a primary screening step for all air travel passengers.
By way of introduction one of us (John Sedat) met you recently when he and his
wife Dr. Elizabeth Blackburn, a 2009 Nobel Laureate; talked with President Obama
last December. Dr. Sedat is Professor Emeritus in Biochemistry and Biophysics at
the University of California, San Francisco, with expertise in imaging. He is also a
member of the National Academy of Sciences. The other cosigners include Dr.
Marc Shuman, an internationally well known and respected cancer expert and UCSF
professor, as well as Drs. David Agard and Robert Stroud, who are UCSF
Professors, X-ray crystallographers, imaging experts and NAS members.
Sincerely yours,
~~
(signatures of)
John Sedat, Ph.D
David Agard, Ph.D.
Marc Shuman, M.D.
Robert Stroud, PhD

LETTER OF CONCERN

We are writing to call your attention to serious concerns about the potential health risks
of the recently adopted whole body backscatter X-ray airport security scanners. This is
an urgent situation as these X-ray scanners are rapidly being implemented as a primary
screening step for all air travel passengers.
Our overriding concern is the extent to which the safety of this scanning device has
been adequately demonstrated. This can only be determined by a meeting of an
impartial panel of experts that would include medical physicists and radiation biologists
at which all of the available relevant data is reviewed.
An important consideration is that a large fraction of the population will be subject to
the new X-ray scanners and be at potential risk, as discussed below. This raises a
number of ‘red flags’. Can we have an urgent second independent evaluation?
The Red Flags
The physics of these X-rays is very telling: the X-rays are Compton-Scattering off outer
molecule bonding electrons and thus inelastic (likely breaking bonds).
Unlike other scanners, these new devices operate at relatively low beam energies
(28keV). The majority of their energy is delivered to the skin and the underlying
tissue. Thus, while the dose would be safe if it were distributed throughout the volume
of the entire body, the dose to the skin may be dangerously high.
The X-ray dose from these devices has often been compared in the media to the cosmic
ray exposure inherent to airplane travel or that of a chest X-ray. However, this
comparison is very misleading: both the air travel cosmic ray exposure and chest Xrays
have much higher X-ray energies and the health consequences are appropriately
understood in terms of the whole body volume dose. In contrast, these new airport
scanners are largely depositing their energy into the skin and immediately adjacent
tissue, and since this is such a small fraction of body weight/vol, possibly by one to two
orders of magnitude, the real dose to the skin is now high.
In addition, it appears that real independent safety data do not exist. A search,
ultimately finding top FDA radiation physics staff, suggests that the relevant radiation
quantity, the Flux
has not been characterized. Instead an indirect test (Air Kerma) was made that
emphasized the whole body exposure value, and thus it appears that the danger is low
when compared to cosmic rays during airplane travel and a chest X-ray dose.
In summary, if the key data (flux-integrated photons per unit values) were available, it
would be straightforward to accurately model the dose being deposited in the skin and
Letter of Concern – Page 2
adjacent tissues using available computer codes, which would resolve the potential
concerns over radiation damage.
Our colleagues at UCSF, dermatologists and cancer experts, raise specific important
concerns:
• A) The large population of older travelers, >65 years of age, is particularly at
risk from the mutagenic effects of the X-rays based on the known biology of
melanocyte aging.
• B) A fraction of the female population is especially sensitive to mutagenesisprovoking
radiation leading to breast cancer. Notably, because these women,
who have defects in DNA repair mechanisms, are particularly prone to cancer,
X-ray mammograms are not performed on them. The dose to breast tissue
beneath the skin represents a similar risk.
• C) Blood (white blood cells) perfusing the skin is also at risk.
• D) The population of immunocompromised individuals--HIV and cancer
patients (see above) is likely to be at risk for cancer induction by the high skin
dose.
• E) The risk of radiation emission to children and adolescents does not appear to
have been fully evaluated.
• F) The policy towards pregnant women needs to be defined once the theoretical
risks to the fetus are determined.
• G) Because of the proximity of the testicles to skin, this tissue is at risk for
sperm mutagenesis.
• H) Have the effects of the radiation on the cornea and thymus been determined?
Moreover, there are a number of ‘red flags’ related to the hardware itself. Because this
device can scan a human in a few seconds, the X-ray beam is very intense. Any glitch
in power at any point in the hardware (or more importantly in software) that stops the
device could cause an intense radiation dose to a single spot on the skin. Who will
oversee problems with overall dose after repair or software problems? The TSA is
already complaining about resolution limitations; who will keep the manufacturers
and/or TSA from just raising the dose, an easy way to improve signal-to-noise and get
higher resolution? Lastly, given the recent incident (on December 25th), how do we
know whether the manufacturer or TSA, seeking higher resolution, will scan the groin
area more slowly leading to a much higher total dose?
After review of the available data we have already obtained, we suggest that additional
critical information be obtained, with the goal to minimize the potential health risks of
Letter of Concern – Page 3
total body scanning. One can study the relevant X-ray dose effects with modern
molecular tools. Once a small team of appropriate experts is assembled, an
experimental plan can be designed and implemented with the objective of obtaining
information relevant to our concerns expressed above, with attention paid to completing
the information gathering and formulating recommendations in a timely fashion.
We would like to put our current concerns into perspective. As longstanding UCSF
scientists and physicians, we have witnessed critical errors in decisions that have
seriously affected the health of thousands of people in the United States. These
unfortunate errors were made because of the failure to recognize potential adverse
outcomes of decisions made at the federal level. Crises create a sense of urgency that
frequently leads to hasty decisions where unintended consequences are not recognized.
Examples include the failure of the CDC to recognize the risk of blood transfusions in
the early stages of the AIDS epidemic, approval of drugs and devices by the FDA
without sufficient review, and improper standards set by the EPA, to name a few.
Similarly, there has not been sufficient review of the intermediate and long-term effects
of radiation exposure associated with airport scanners. There is good reason to believe
that these scanners will increase the risk of cancer to children and other vulnerable
populations. We are unanimous in believing that the potential health consequences
need to be rigorously studied before these scanners are adopted. Modifications that
reduce radiation exposure need to be explored as soon as possible.
In summary we urge you to empower an impartial panel of experts to reevaluate the
potential health issues we have raised before there are irrevocable long-term
consequences to the health of our country. These negative effects may on balance far
outweigh the potential benefit of increased detection of terrorists.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Thanks. I'm not a bio person...
... and I slept through the one Tissues class I had to take. From an EE standpoint this still doesn't make much sense; they seem to be saying that the lower energy beam is entirely scattered by the skin and flesh, which doesn't sound right at all. Medical X-rays use high energy to "drown out" that scattering but it's still happening. *shrug* I'll ask my biomed friends.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Who do you think knows more?
Edited on Wed Nov-24-10 03:11 PM by LisaL
A non bio-person like yourself or a university professor of Biochemistry and Biophysics?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. I've met plenty of dumb professors
But, yes, that's pretty much why I said "I'll ask my biomed friends", since from an electrical engineer's standpoint this doesn't make much sense.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. you think UCSF names a lab after a dumb professor?(working hospital/medical school/medical center)
http://www.msg.ucsf.edu/sedat/people.html

UCSF also staffs San Francisco General Hospital.

This guy is not just some professor of Greek Mythology opining on medicine, he's an expert in genetics, heads a department at prestigious UCSF.

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Yeah, but this professor was chosen by his peers to be a member
of the prestigious Academy of Science. He's not some "dumb professor."
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. The UCSF profs aren't the only ones on record voicing concerns, especially on population risk.
Add to them Dr. David Brenner, Columbia University, and Dr. Michael Love, Johns Hopkins University school of medicine.

Sure they could ALL be dumb professors at leading institutions but chances are not good.

http://www.latimes.com/health/fl-nbcol-body-scanner-cancer-brochu-120101117,0,3026203.column
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. if the answer was that simple, you'd think FDA would've pointed out an error
but they didn't.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. NCRP Commentary No. 16 (2003)
Ionizing radiation is radiation that causes Compton scattering. Contrary to the Ars Technica article, the FDA did provide a study that addresses the safety issues of that kind of radiation (NCRP Commentary No. 16).
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. would you accept the scan? would you accept 4, 10, or 20 scans in quick succession ?
in quick succession to one part of your body?

what if you didn't have a choice?
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. do those waves extend beyond the machines? TSA people should
be worried if they work near those things all day.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-10 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. yes they do and even TSA's website says so
they just say the levels are below their level of concern for bystanders.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-10 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. The scanners I've seen should keep *most* of the radiation inside them
They'll have to have metal backstops as part of the backscatter collector, and electric field can't pass through conductors.

Now, there will be some scatter. But it's going to be drowned out by, say, cellular and radio transmissions. To say nothing of sunlight.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-10 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
51. Ah thanks for the link
tomorrow I got a LONG letter to write to my delegation.

Damn security theater.
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