I wonder how many grief threads they'll be when that psychotic Nader kicks off.

[NNadir]

Lot's of 'em I bet. They'll be paroxysms of commentary about his nobility and service. All of it will be a load of crap. Nader is and was a malignant freak. His supporters did their country and their world a great moral wrong.

I guess I'm supposed to live by "if you can't speak well of the dead..." one should say nothing at all. Still, someone needs to speak the truth. "Molly this!" "Molly that!" "Do it for Molly," my ass.

Here's all I know about Ms. Ivins: She knew, allegedly, all about George W. Bush was. So she said. And still...still...when her country was about to fall into the jaws of this slime, she whined mercilessly about the fine man who stood, before all the world, against him. The only person who stood against him.

I absolutely refuse to engage in mawkish grief about her death. She was no god damned hero in my system of belief. She was a woman who made her living off of bashing Bush, but truth be known, if that malicious psychopathic creep's career had ended in Texas, so might have Ms. Ivins' career had ended. I will never forgive her for the only thing I remember about her, should she die ten thousand times.

Ivins was on the wrong side.

[piedmont]

1. ...

:popcorn:

I don't know enough about Molly's role in the 2000 or 2002 elections, so I'll just watch.

[JeffR]

2. I disagree. But I really admire your gutsiness for posting this here.

[redwitch]

3. This is a really bizarre post

and I do not understand what you are ranting about.

[NNadir]

12. I'm sure you don't.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNadir]

9. Call Ralph Nader and ask him to have me arrested.

I stand by what I say.

[Bonobo]

So do I.

[Beaverhausen]

5. What are you talking about?

Gore?

[NNadir]

11. Yes. I am talking about Ms. Ivins mindless attacks on Gore.

[Beaverhausen]

18. Gore won the election. Bush stole it. This can hardly be blamed on Molly

[NNadir]

30. Then again, it can't be said that she did much to avoid blame either.

[Dean Martin]

6. You're full of it

People voted for Nader because their hearts and their conscience were with Nader. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Renew Deal]

7. Bullshit

I bet there are some people like you mention. Most Nader voters were protesting the establishment. In some ways they got what they wanted. An anti-establishment extremist.

[Dean Martin]

71. Whatever

I know people who voted for Nader and they honestly liked his ideas better than anybody elses. I don't much care if you believe or understand that.

[PCIntern]

8. ...and if they sufferred more under Junior,

they deserved it in spades. There should be a Circle of Hell for those who with full knowledge of the proximity of the election in FL, saw fit to 'make a statement'. In the vernacular, Fuck That.

The were their own brand of 'morans'.

[WI_DEM]

10. First of all in the column your talking about she said she lived in Texas

"where a vote for Nader is a free vote. Our electors here are going for Bush no matter what democrats do...so this is the equivilant of a primary vote: Go with your heart." In 2000, she went with her heart in a state Gore had written off. Now if she was in Florida or Ohio we don't know if she would have--in that case she might have voted with her brain.

But needless to say to condemn a person the way you are on the way they voted on the day they died and somebody who has stood for strong liberal and progressive causes all of her career is pretty low.

[NNadir]

16. This is a very weak dodge.

Ms Ivins was not writing solely for Texas, since I have nothing to do with Texas and know all about her activities. Thus it is a load of shit to say she was only addressing Texans.

She was irresponsible and wrong. If she had opposed the beast with full force and not with faint waffling hair splitting she might have been a force for good. But she didn't and she wasn't.

Al Gore proved to be a very fine man. He was standing up against the war while Ralph Nader was whining about NBA officiating.

Ms Ivins supported Nader and damned Gore.

I will not miss her.

[WI_DEM]

23. by pointing that out in her column she was in effect telling those who

might be flirting with a vote for Nader to evaluate whether they should do it.

I also hate to bring this up, but Gore would have won in 2000 had he carried his home state of Tennessee--where Nader wasn't a factor. And before you begin thinking I'm a Nader lover, I strongly supported Al Gore in 2000 and would again if he ran in 2008.

Apparently you are a very immature person who denounces anybody who supported and voted for Ralph Nader. It is the right of people to vote their hearts and that is what this country is all about. You might also remember that what really did Gore in was a one-vote margin from the US Supreme Court which stopped the vote count in Florida.

[fishwax]

35. actually, she encouraged those NOT in texas or other safe states to vote for Gore

If more people in Florida had followed her advice and made the hard choice, then Gore would be president right now.

This is an old argument between radicals and liberals; sometimes I'm on one side, and sometimes I'm on the other. In the primaries, I vote to change the world; in November, I vote for a sliver more for programs that help the needy.

I do not believe that things have to get worse before they can get better. I think you will find that most mothers object to the idea that you would deliberately do something to make a child's life worse in order to bring about some presumed greater good in the long run. I believe that the best can be the enemy of the better. I believe in taking half a loaf, or even a slice.

And how do we ever change the whole rotten system at that speed? Brick by brick, child by child, slowly, toward liberty and justice for all. The urgent, crucial need right now is to fix the money in politics. It can be done, it will be done, it is being done, and we will get better politics.

In Texas, we'll vote for Nader and a perfect world. You swing-state progressives need to make the hard choice -- but you're not making it just for yourselves. Good luck to you all.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. Molly poked holes in the presumptions of all politicians. How unfair of her.

Molly was on the right side. The side of the truth.

[NNadir]

38. Sure. Bush vs. Gore was just about politicians, right?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. Elections usually are about politicians.

I assume that you believe that "our" politicians are above criticism?

BTW, your avatar was extremely critical of a certain politician named Lincoln.

[Liberal Veteran]

14. Your opinion, such as it is, is duly noted and filed....

....right in the bag I just dumped my cat's used litter into.

And what the cats contributed to that bag smells better.

[mtnester]

15. 22 minutes...22 minutes

you could not wait even an hour or so?

IBTL

[Liberal Veteran]

19. Bad taste waits on no one.

I think of Molly as one of ours.

She wasn't always right (and lord knows, neither am I), but I admired and respected her.

[mtnester]

25. Always when I think I cannot be shocked

then zing.

Sigh

[uppityperson]

17. wow. Hold a grudge much?

Fine to not love her of think she is a hero, but the rest of this rant is amazingly bitter. Molly Ivins was the only person who stood against (Gore?)? wow. And you hate Nader for Bush getting in, cannot see that he ever did anything good, ego and all. wow. Just wow.

[NNadir]

28. Absolutely. My country was destroyed. I'm not much into forgiveness.

[Liberal Veteran]

34. Well, I'm sure you can rest easy now that the one person solely responsible...

...for the Bush presidency is dead.

:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

[uppityperson]

43. My reply is what Liberal Veteran said below to you.

I have learned something about you today.

[walldude]

20. Yeah you are right, Molly was a mean horible bitch who

never did anything for progressive causes. :eyes: I'm sure she won't miss you either.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

21. May you find some kind of relief from your bitterly cold heart.

[Rose Siding]

33. *That's* the sentiment I was trying to find

At least then those hateful words would have served some purpose.

[DainBramaged]

22. Douche bag (my shortened definition)

Someone who pisses on the graves of the good.


You sir belong on Hanninazi's site, not here.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[democracyindanger]

24. AHAHAHAHAHA!

She was on the "wrong" side not because she constantly wrote the truth about Bush, but because she also identified St. Ralph as the egotistical buffoon he is.

Best laugh today. Thanks.

[The Straight Story]

26. Would you like some Tea to wash down that piss in your Wheaties?

Nader was not the reason Gore lost - it was stolen, plain and simple.

[Liberal Veteran]

39. If you are offering that one drinks, may I suggest this menu item instead of tea?

[The Straight Story]

67. ROFL - one of my favorite graphics :)

I need to email that one out again to some rw friends :)

[KamaAina]

27. Nader is psychotic? Did I miss something?

All this time I thought he'd made a tactical error by running a quixotic third-party campaign in a race as tight as 2000's. Now I get it! He's psychotic! :sarcasm:

[NNadir]

32. Ever hear about the Jack T. Ripper fluoride campaign?

Nader was one of the original "precious bodily fluids" boys, going back to the 1960's.

Nader is nuts. Always has been, and always will be.

[uppityperson]

48. seat belts. But why do I even bother.

[Bonobo]

51. Nice to know you're consistently obtuse.

Fluoride FACTS

Fluoride was found to be an equivocal carcinogen by the National Cancer Institute Toxicological Program.1

Further studies by the New Jersey Department of Health have now confirmed a 6.9 fold increase in bone cancer in young males.2

Earlier studies had found a 5% increase in all types of cancers in fluoridated communities.3

Fluoride Is A Carcinogen


Fluoride Increases Hip Fractures
Drinking fluoridated water will double the number of hip fractures for both older men and women.4 5

Extremely low levels of water fluoridation 0.1 ppm still produced statistically significant increased hip fractures. (Bordeaux Study JAMA 1994)





Fluoride Increases Infertility
Infertility in women was found to increase with water fluoridation.

Food and Drug Administration (FDA) scientists reported a close correlation between decreasing total fertility rates in women between ages of 10 and 49, and increasing fluoride levels.

They also reported that a review of all of the animal studies done to date shows that fluoride adversely affects fertility in most animal species.6



Fluoride Increases Fluorosis
Opaque white spots and brown ugly teeth caused by fluoride is called Fluorosis.

Fluorosis currently affects one out of five or more children in this nation although it is rarely seen in California.

California is the least fluoridated state with less than 16% of the population drinking artificially fluoridated water.



Fluoride Does NOT Reduce Tooth Decay
Fluoride is not effective in reducing tooth decay.

No correlation was found between the level of fluoride in water and dental caries.7 8 9 10 11

There appears to be a genetically related increase in tooth decay for Hispanics, Indians, Native Americans and Asians.

Decay is related to the educational and economic level of the parents.12 13 14





Fluoride Is Unapproved By FDA
The FDA considers fluoride an unapproved new drug for which there is no proof of safety or effectiveness.

The FDA does not consider fluoride an essential nutrient.





Fluoride Is Highly Toxic
The International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology has classified Fluoride as an unapproved dental medicament due to its high toxicity.

[NNadir]

73. Thanks. I needed that. I am chemist and I know all about fluoride.

Every thing you write here is nonsense but you are perfectly free to protect your precious bodily fluids from the horrors of fluoride. Good luck.

Fluorine is one of the most common elements in earth's crust, far more common than chlorine.

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/properties/text/image-group-17/abund-crust.html

[MonkeyFunk]

29. Meh

she was right about the other 99.9% of things.

I'll miss her greatly.

[Annces]

31. It is a bad idea to post something negative on the day of someone's death

That is a given on DU.

[NNadir]

37. So I'll have to be respectful the day Cheney dies?

I don't think so. Everybody dies, and when they do so, it is a perfect time to call them to account for their actions in life.

In spite of what you hear on TV, death does not make one a saint.

I shed not one tear, not one, for either Richard Nixon, nor one for Ronald Reagan.

[MrPrax]

36. I don't get it?

What does Nader have to do with anything?

And your attacking Molly Ivins, a liberal, a democrat and an unelected syndicated columnist, because she ONLY bashed Bush and Conservative hypocrisy for a living as opposed to what? ...getting elected as House Leader and not even bashing Bush?

"Many people did not care for Pat Buchanan's speech; it probably sounded better in the original German" -- Molly Ivins, 1992

She's been at it for awhile, slick...

Please show some respect...jeez

[RetroLounge]

What a stupid fucking post...

"bitter, party of one..."

_!_

RL

[Buzz Clik]

40. NNadir, I admire your enviro posts, but this? Not so much.

Nader offered an alternative to an incompetent asshole who was sure to ruin the country (and didn't disappoint) and an amazingly clumsy campaigner who was running to the middle as fast as he could. Molly voted for Nader -- last I looked, it was her Constitutional right to do so. I voted for Gore, holding my nose the entire time.

Ivin's Shrub was the first in-depth analysis of Bush that I read. I owe her a debt of gratitude; my middle school kids read the book, too.

I will hand it to you, NNadir, when you mention Molly's name here at DU (less than five times in three years, as far as I can tell), you are consistent:

I'm really fucking tired of Molly Ivens.

I think she had a conflict of interest. Without Bush nobody would pay attention to her.

Hilliary Clinton is not my favorite candidate, but she's a fuck load more ethical and competent than that piece of shit, for whom Ivens did so much, Ralph Nader.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=18438#20209

So, we know where you stand.

For the life of me, I will never understand why you didn't let at least some time pass before you posted your latest screed.


P.S. For the record, you and I both know that only one candidate supported even the notion of restarting the production of nuclear energy, and it wasn't Gore.

[NNadir]

52. I say what I believe and moreover am hardly afraid to do so.

I don't think you know very much at all about what Mr. Gore would have done for nuclear power. Mr. Gore was the author of the Russian-American nuclear power treaty for the dispostion of weapons grade plutonium.

I obviously know far more about nuclear policy and the nuclear positions of the 2000 candidates than one can read in the Texas Observer.

The author of the nuclear ignorance that is currently killing our planet is Ralph Nader, a person with whom no moral thinker would have any truck.

[hickman]

41. You just stuck your thumb exactally on the weakness of Dems.

If we could for, the love of Mike all get our guns pointed in the same direction we could rule the world. Instead we eat our own and wonder why the jerks have ruled since 1980.

[NNadir]

56. Ralph Nader is not "our own," and I am not "eating" him.

I have been wholly unable to swallow a single thing about Ralph Nader.

[hickman]

87. I thought we were still talking about Molly Ivins.

I thought I was talking about her non-defence of Gore. Sorry. I'm stupid and going back to the lounge where I belong. Nevermind.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

42. I agree with you. Thanks for posting this.

nt

[walldude]

68. You know I stood up for you when people were calling you

a troll over the house thing. You may want to rethink your position here. Even if what she did was a mistake, she certainly has done more for the progressive community than any 10 fucking DU'ers. I met her at a GLBT film festival she was a unique and wonderful person. Even much of FR is just posting their condolences.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

77. Everyone deserves respect and condolences but that doesn't mean

someone can't remind people that the deceased person contributed to the disaster we're in now. I liked Ivins who was right whenever she wrote about Idiot Son, but it doesn't bother me that someone added Nader context. I hate Nader.

[Danger Mouse]

44. Ah, good old GD.

:banghead:

[BlueIris]

45. Sick.

You should consider long-term therapy (with meds). Sense of occasion? Civility? Consideration for the feelings of others?

[Gman]

46. You very obviously know very, very little about Ivins

You're apparently very new.

[DainBramaged]

47. I decided that YOU are a perfect example of why we have the ignore button

I never thought I would find a more hateful post on DU than this. And I've decided that ignoring your spew is best for my self=preservation.

When the whip comes down, remember what you wrote here today.

[NNadir]

53. Well you won't be able to read how terrified I am of your ignore button and your whip.

[LoZoccolo]

79. When the whip comes down?

I don't understand.

[DainBramaged]

93. It is not a reference to the Mick Jagger song

It is a reference to the last gurgling breath we take before the darkness comes.

[alarimer]

49. this is disgusting

go cheney yourself

[Maddy McCall]

50. I hope when someone dear to you dies, no one busts into the memorial service...

and exclaims to you that they will not mourn your loved one's death.

That's what you are doing here.

For Molly, and for the DUers who loved her, let me issue a fine fuck you to you.

[NNadir]

54. I'll be dead and completely indifferent to the situation.

[Maddy McCall]

I see that your reading comprehension sucks as much as your writing...

and almost as much as your opinions.

[Danger Mouse]

60. You ROCK.

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

61. ! Thank you. nt

[Tom Joad]

55. Rev Phelps agrees with this post. The rest of us are repulsed.

and offended that it is still up.

[NNadir]

58. Who is Reverend Phelps?

[walldude]

63. Pretty Ignorant for a DU'er huh...

look up Westboro Baptist Church on Google, I won't post that assholes link here. He does what you seem to enjoy doing.

[NNadir]

78. Gee. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about Baptists. I'm an atheist.

I guess not knowing about Baptists passes for ignorance. Thanks for informing of your vast insight.

[Maddy McCall]

94. Pathetic. So you don't think about stuff when you aren't a part of it.

Not surprising, though.

[Kelly Rupert]

70. The Google is your friend.

Seriously, when you have a hostile audience, Wiki and Google anything you aren't familiar with.

[David Zephyr]

57. You are very ignorant to the legacy of Ivins and her long career.

If you knew the history of the Texas Observer and the long and courageous career of Molly Ivins you would be writing a very long apology at this moment.

Shame on you.

[NNadir]

85. All I know of her is what I wrote about her. It is enough for me.

I have never been interested in a single other thing about her.

[uppityperson]

91. You are ignorant and proud of it. Good boy!

or girl, as the case may be. This post of yours tells us all we need to know.

[atommom]

59. Is there any point to this thread other than upsetting people?

It's ridiculous to blame one columnist for Gore's loss, and you know that. You've chosen a bad time to be belligerant.

[davekriss]

62. This has my vote...

...for worst post ever on DU.

[Danger Mouse]

64. To actually reply to this post would be to dignify it, but I will say this.

I've seen some pretty damn horrid posts on DU, but this one just about takes the cake. Congratulations. You should get some sort of award.

[Tom Joad]

76. I thought this was a moderated forum?

[Danger Mouse]

84. I think this thread will eventually be locked. Probably.

[NNadir]

90. Thanks for not responding to the post and for the award.

[LWolf]

65. Hopefully about the same number

as there will be when NNadir "kicks off." I don't see one as more valuable, more productive, or more worthy than the other.

:shrug:

[Kelly Rupert]

66. I agree that Ms. Ivins is no hero.

Molly Ivins made a career bashing Bush. She was a partisan political journalist with a niche audience; nothing more, nothing less. But you know what? I wish our side had more of them. I wish we had more hardline voices in the papers. I'm tired of having the majority viewpoint in America be the media minority. Her death is unfortunate, because it's the silencing of a voice that did more good than harm.

[Tom Joad]

72. You do not even know her enough to spell her name correctly.

Molly Ivins, Rest in Peace.

[Kelly Rupert]

74. OMG TEH TYPO INVAILIDATES MY OPINION

Fixed, and thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[walldude]

82. No.. your ignorance invalidates your opinion... n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

86. Ignorance of what, sir? n/t

[walldude]

75. Exactly.. people think all she did was write a column

Before you go shitting on her maybe you should check out all she's done in her life.

[Kelly Rupert]

80. How exactly was I shitting on her?

She was a good partisan journalist. Crediting her for what she did--and remembering her as a human and not a goddess--is not "shitting" on her.

[uppityperson]

83. Thank you for your post. We do need more people like her speaking out.

She was not perfect. She made mistakes. She did much more good than harm. RIP Molly. I will miss your writings.

[Kelly Rupert]

92. So will I. She was usually good for a laugh.

It's unfortunate when a good writer dies. But I don't think she'd want to be remembered as an avatar of perfection--she scorned pretension in politicians; I don't see why failure to inflate the dead is seen as a sin. In her death, I think the same of her I did in her life: a good writer, and nothing more or less.

[Maddy McCall]

89. So, in other words, you really knew very little about Molly's career.

She only began to exist to you when she gained acclaim for her columns on Bush? What else do you know about Molly's long career?

What harm do you think that Molly did?

[charlie]

97. Made a career bashing Bush...

Times reporter 30 years ago. First NYTimes bestseller in 1991. She was a national name before anyone heard of the drunken sot. No need to take NNadir's idiocies about her career at his word.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. How Sad It Must Be, To Be You.

I feel for you. I really do.

I couldn't even imagine how sad it must be to be so cold, so selfish, so narrow-minded, so petty, so blind.

Not for a second can I imagine how miserable my existence would feel, if I were such a person.

I feel for you. Truly, sincerely, deeply, I feel for you.

[AlCzervik]

88. Worst thread ever.

and i'll leave it at that, you ain't worth the tombstone.

[Nutmegger]

95. This thread is an EFFING DISGRACE!

:puke:

[Horse with no Name]

96. Unbelievable

Just posting here to see how long it takes for the moderators to take out the trash.
You should be ashamed of yourself...but something tells me, you are not.

[Pastiche423]

98. SCOTUS appointed El Mono president

Where the fuck were you when that happened? <--------rhetorical question, not meant to be answered. Besides, your answer would be Ignore.

Bye bye.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

99. I'm going to lock this.

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other individual members of this discussion board. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other individual members of this discussion board. Even very mild personal attacks are forbidden.

Do not hurl insults at other individual members of this message board. Do not tell someone, "shut up," "screw you," "fuck off," "in your face," or some other insult.

There are no exceptions to these civility rules. You cannot attack someone because they attacked you first, or because that person "deserved it," or because you think someone is a disruptor. We consider it a personal attack to call a liar a liar, to call a moron a moron, or to call a jerk a jerk.

best,
wakemeupwhenitsover
DU Moderator