Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Israel's airport security measures are often pointed to as a better alternative

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:13 PM
Original message
Israel's airport security measures are often pointed to as a better alternative
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 03:25 PM by pnwmom
than the FAA required pat-downs or scans.

The el Al profiling approach involves extensive interviewing of all passengers by specially trained personnel looking for suspicious behavior and requires all passengers to arrive at the airport 3 hours before flight time.

Wouldn't such an approach be hugely expensive and time consuming? What about the issue of racial profiling? Would we really trust these specially trained TSA workers NOT to be influenced by prejudice for or against various groups?
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/full-body-scanners-are-illusion-security

“We at El Al have used the hand/body search for so many years, but we did it only to suspicious passengers that were interviewed by us,” said Yeffet. “We asked the questions and we were able to determine that there was something wrong with a passenger.”

Yeffet pointed out that El Al’s security personnel are highly trained in reading people’s physical actions as indicators of behavior.

“If you are bona fide, you have no problems answering ” he said. “If you want to hide from us, we see the physical changes in your face--suddenly you raise your voice, suddenly your Adam’s apple jumps up and down, you’re nervous. Then we ask, 'Why are you nervous? I'm doing it for your safety sir or Ma'am.’”

Using that approach, “You can see how fast and easy we survive, and we put the hand on the right people that are trying to blow up an aircraft or to commit suicide,” he said.

SNIP

"I don’t need a scanner,” said Yeffet. “I don’t mean to insult anyone. There is what is called hand search. We take you to a special room where you are interviewed by security experts. If we notice any suspicion, we search you from the head to the toe. We won’t leave one piece on your body that we do not do a hand search on. Why do we have to spend millions of dollars on these body scanners?”

___________________________________________________________________________________

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-11/opinion/yeffet.air.security.israel_1_airport-security-isaac-yeffet-el-al/2?_s=PM:OPINION

Yeffett: We must look at the qualifications of the candidate for security jobs. He must be educated. He must speak two languages. He must be trained for a long time, in classrooms. He must receive on-the-job training with a supervisor for weeks to make sure that the guy understands how to approach a passenger, how to convince him to cooperate with him, because the passenger is taking the flight and we are on the ground. The passengers have to understand that the security is doing it for their benefit.

SNIP

During the year, we did thousands of tests of our security guys around the world. It cost money, but once you save lives, it's worth all the money that the government gave us to have the right security system.
________________________________________________________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al

Passengers are asked to report three hours before departure. All El Al terminals around the world are closely monitored for security. There are plain-clothes agents and fully armed police or military personnel who patrol the premises for explosives, suspicious behavior, and other threats. Inside the terminal, passengers and their baggage are checked by a trained team. El Al security procedures require that all passengers be interviewed individually prior to boarding, allowing El Al staff to identify possible security threats. Passengers will be asked questions about where they are coming from, the reason for their trip, their job or occupation, and whether they have packed their bags themselves. The likelihood of potential terrorists remaining calm under such questioning is believed to be low (see microexpression).<38>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Israeli airport security = private contractors, non union employees
This comparison talking point is all over FOX news sites

:eyes:

Israel gave up on centrally-planned security in 1995. Instead, private contractors with money on the line compete for the job. Scanners are not used. The government can fire the worst and pick the best. O’Reilly wants me to give him a solution to airport security.

Read more: http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2010/11/16/let-markets-civilize-airport-security/#ixzz15ZZn9tkK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. This "comparison talking point" -- minus the non-union employees --
has also been all over DU.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:35 PM
Original message
yeah, I know n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Why do we have to spend millions of dollars on these body scanners?”
This is the issue.

I believe these new groping techniques involving women's breasts and men's genitals came about due to the rising protests of the scanners. The fact they have not been tested and use xrays that affect the skin only raises questions.

So what do the scanners' "investors" do? Come up with extremely invasive groping techniques to intimidate passengers into accepting the new scanners. After all, why not allow some questionable xrays to saturate your skin if you can avoid a sexual assault?

Capitalism at its finest...:grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. So what measures do you support? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Well, we can stop the sexual assaults...
We haven't had a 9/11 since...9/11. We must be doing something right. Why not continue with those practices and look for ways to improve on them, instead of adopting draconian measures to instill fear into Americans for the benefit of a few capitalists heavily invested in questionable x-ray scanners.

And a president who learns of an impending action by the brother of his oil-backer and does something to stop it would be nice.

Also, how about we stop killing Iraqis and Afghans? Think that might be helpful, too?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. No one who has been the subject of a real sexual assault
would use that term to describe the airport pat-downs.

The comparison is an insult to real victims.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Really? Groping a women's breasts or a man's genitals isn't sexual assault?
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 03:44 PM by KansDem
What world are you living in?

on edit: so you differentiate between "real sexual assault" and what?..."imagined sexual assault?" "not really a 'real' sexual assault?" "almost-but-not-quite-a-real sexual assault?"

I thought a sexual assault was just that: a sexual assault...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. When a doctor does a breast exam is that a sexual assault?
What world are YOU living in?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Breast exams actually have a purpose. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. So do these searches. And neither one catches all the bad "cells."
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 04:07 PM by pnwmom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
56. Doctors' exams are given by consent.
My health is more important than TSA intrusions...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. No one is forcing you to fly. Security screenings are part
of what you agree to when you buy the ticket.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. Right. I don't mind walking through metal detectors. Or having a wand waved over me.
Security screenings are necessary. But touching and groping my privates isn't.

As I said, we haven't had a 9/11 since 9/11. We must be doing something right.

I just want all the high-rollers, like Michael Chertoff, out of the equation:

Here is a Chertoff quote from the New York Times on December 29th.“If they’d been deployed, this would pick up this kind of device,” Michael Chertoff, the former homeland security secretary, said in an interview, referring to the packet of chemicals hidden in the underwear of the Nigerian man who federal officials say tried to blow up the Northwest Airlines flight
.
A few days later the Washington Post revealed that Chertoff represents Rapiscan - a maker of full body scanners drawing criticism of groups who oppose full body scanners.

"Mr. Chertoff should not be allowed to abuse the trust the public has placed in him as a former public servant to privately gain from the sale of full-body scanners under the pretense that the scanners would have detected this particular type of explosive," said Kate Hanni, founder of FlyersRights.org, which opposes the use of the scanners.


NowPublic

Mr. Chertoff has nothing to lose and everything to gain by keeping Americans afraid to fly if his scanners aren't being used. And by adopting invasive groping practices for those of us who don't want to be radiated, he can be assured we will eventually concede to the use of his scanners.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
68. You appear to know a lot about "some people here" for being here only a month yourself
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 06:10 PM by NNN0LHI
Know what I mean?

Don
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Read at the link an the tell is this is just a patdown
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. That woman's account implies that the touching occurs on bare skin.
She was surprised by it, and that was wrong -- the TSA person was supposed to tell her what she was doing.

But a properly conducted pat-down search is not a sexual assault.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
94. Nothing implied about it and the reaction is even worse
This will be excused as a low time person not nothing what they were supposed to do etc. Have to wonder how many times that will happen. If it were just a pat down, I would not be concerned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Don't think so.
This groping is unnecessary, unwarranted, without the consent of the person being victimized. It is not okay just because a the person doing the groping is wearing a uniform or because that person works for a government.

Ask a victim of sexual assault how they feel about being their body being probed in their most personal places by a total stranger at an airport, and I am confident they will view it as yet another serious sexual violation.




:grr: :grr: :grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. "Probed"? Who is being probed? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. These people are being "probed"









Does that help?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. There isn't a probe occurring in any of those pictures.
Touches and pats, yes. Probes, no.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. Wrong.
probe (prōb)
noun
1. a slender, blunt surgical instrument for exploring a wound or the like
2. the act of probing
3. a searching examination; specif.,
a. ☆ an investigation, as by a legislative committee, into corruption, etc.
b. an exploratory advance or patrol
4. ☆ an instrumented spacecraft for exploring the upper atmosphere, space, or a celestial body in order to get information about the environment, physical properties, etc.
5. any of various devices, as a Pitot tube or electrode, inserted into an environment for measuring, testing, etc.
Origin: LL proba, proof (in ML, examination) < L probare, to test, prove < probus, good, proper < IE *probhwos (> Sans prabhúḥ, outstanding) < base *pro, forward + *bhū, to grow > be
transitive verb probed, probing prob′•ing
1. to explore (a wound, etc.) with a probe
2. to investigate or examine with great thoroughness
intransitive verb
to search; investigate




Are you clear yet? Peoples bodies are being physically probed.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. Not in any common meaning of the term. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Wrong again. Plenty of women who have been sexually assaulted will recognize this as an assault.
Sure, there are worse levels of sexual assault but unwanted touching of the labia and in between the buttocks even with a clothing layer separating the hand from the flesh will register as sexual assault with some of those who have experienced prior assaults.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. I agree that women who have previously been assaulted will
be sensitized to this.

But it is not an assault when you consent to it anymore than it is an assault when a doctor does a breast exam, a mammogram, or an internal vaginal exam. And the pat-downs and scans are done for safety measures, just as the medical procedures are done to protect health.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Yes, but it's not informed consent
--that is, you are not made aware of just how "touchy" the procedure is until after you are in the pat down zone. You are not made aware of your rights, such as the right to request a pat down in a private room. Furthermore, by the time you do understand what the "enhanced" pat down entails you are prohibited by law from rescinding your consent.

I don't believe the scans and enhanced pat downs were implemented based principally on security but that's a different thread topic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Then that's wrong. I think people should be able to stop the procedure
and go home at any point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
42. It is
But keep telling yourself differently.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
59. Scanning all baggage and cargo, for starters
not 20 percent, like we do now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. could not agree more... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #59
100. I'm sure cargo compartments are where the next threats will originate.
It makes no sense to use explosives on the body now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Yes sireee
Disaster capitalism at its best.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. israeli departure point airports DO NOT interview everyone
not even close. anyone stating so is promoting a falsehood. i have flown in and out of israel several times and have been interviewed a total of ONCE...

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. So they asked you no questions at all? Not even the ones
mentioned "Passengers will be asked questions about where they are coming from, the reason for their trip, their job or occupation, and whether they have packed their bags themselves. The likelihood of potential terrorists remaining calm under such questioning is believed to be low."

Then they must be relying a great deal on other parts of their profiling technique.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. your OP states 'extensive interviews' and that is what i object to
there is no way to achieve that for every passenger. the normal questioning that you would run into in most airports...yes, i was asked those.

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. So you are saying that no one spoke to you before your bags were scanned
and did not place a sticker on each piece of your luggage and your passport?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. no...i am saying i was not interviewed with this 'extensive' process
mentioned in the OP...

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. You are right that the questioning is probably longer for some passengers
and shorter for others. Do you disagree with the Wikipedia article saying that passengers are supposed to arrive at the airport 3 hours early?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. that is true for international passengers everywhere...at least to
my experience it is. two hours domestic...three hours international. so nothing out of the ordinary. i have been subjected to the the 45 minute extensive interview. very professional...very thorough...and man, do they try to trip you up. asked the same question 5 or 6 times with different verbiage. and though it took more time, i felt at no time that it was anywhere nearly as annoying as the inconsistent, reactionary policies of the TSA.

what happens when someone ingests enough C4 or other explosive and finds a way to detonate it? there have been drug mules caught with over a pound of coke in condoms inside their bodies...that would make a nice hole in a plane.

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. So it's either 1) full body scanning or 2) police interrogation
That's not much of a better choice.

"Why are you nervous? I'm doing it for your safety." Because nobody ever gets nervous, say, just flying. We do a lot of shit in the name of safety.

I'll go ahead and hit "Post Message" before I start on only vaguely related issues that will get this thread moved quickly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is believed to be low? I bet they can train for it.
Our country is just too big for this, too.

Everyone complaining about the pat down would surely complain about the three hour interview.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
39. There is no three hour interview
International passengers everywhere are asked to arrive 3 hours ahead, Israel is the same. All international passengers are asked questions about their bags, nature of the visit, etc, everywhere, not just Israel.
They do it smart, we do it dumb. They are a huge target, with a perfect record. We've had all manner of highjackings going on virtually my entire life. They do it correctly, by looking to see if there is a criminal in the crowd, rather than checking each person for criminality.
Many other countries look to Israel for security advice for a damn good reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. Matthew Yglesias on his experience with them:
"but I’d have to say that my experience leaving Tel Aviv was far and away the most unpleasant encounter I’d ever had with airport security officials in the decade"

"things went pretty smoothly as long as you were (a) Israeli, (b) traveling with an Israeli, or (c) traveling with some kind of well-established tour group."

"I was groped a couple of times, yelled at by surly Russian immigrants, accused of “lying” because I’d forgotten I had a second iPod charging cord in my bag, interrogated several times about who I’d talked to, etc. "

"unlike with American security I actually felt somewhat threatened the whole time"

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/11/israeli-airport-security/

for Pete's sake, the only thing worse than having TSA do it the way they do it now would be to have them adopt the Israeli approach.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Interesting link. Thanks CreekDog. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. My Uncle has been all around the world including Israel and Egypt
and by far the worst encounters with airport security were HERE..BY FAR. And I witnessed some if it myself. Don't assume because high profile people say Israel is worse than here that its the case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
64. Matthew Yglesias is a brown person, he is of mixed race --he didn't say this as explanation
but I think you have to consider the fact that you and me, walking through security as white people in Israel (not looking remotely dark), may be subject to less scrutiny than he is because of that.

i hate to say it, but it's a reasonable suspicion.

it's like Obama once explained, when Hillary supporters were saying he wasn't black, "I know i'm black when I try to catch a cab".

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Questionable
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 06:13 PM by Behind the Aegis
This is a "brown" person?!



There are non-Arab Israelis darker than that! Hell, I am and I am not "mixed race!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
66. So you don't believe the Palestinian Arabs and other Muslims
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 06:09 PM by pnwmom
who say that they are discriminated against by el Al and its racial profiling?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9578604
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
32. never experienced anything other than professionalism and
thoroughness. i bet ole matthew got the hackles up and drew attention to himself. i was never a member of any of the three groups he mentions. i wish we WOULD use the israeli approach...efficient, professional and successful.

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
67. are you white?
just wondering.

and i don't think Matthew has hackles. the only time i ever have seen him get upset was over the city permitting process. :rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. oh...now the israelis are after black folk...right...
sorry...this is not about race...and despite your efforts it never will be.

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Matthew Yglesias is not black...get it right
are you saying that people are always treated the same by security, no matter their race?

and i'll ask again, since you report being treated well --are you white?

it's not a hard question and it doesn't mean that all white people are treated well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. he is mixed race...so your implication stands
no ... israelis don't care what your race is...white, black, asian, purple...it doesn't matter. they do it right..and my race (or yours or Yglesias or anyone else's) is not the issue.

get this IT IS NOT ABOUT RACE...but some people have to look at race in EVERY FUCKING THING...

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. so you are 100% sure that race was not a factor in this?
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 06:36 PM by CreekDog
you are sure?

and all the other people of color around the world, none of what they experience is on account of race either, right?

and what are you doing here? you are disqualifying even the slightest consideration that race MIGHT be a factor.

it's off the table for you.

you had a good experience therefore the system is fair.

well la dee da!

i'm glad you've decided that race isn't a factor. and yes, i think what race you are matters because all the people who over the years have told me that race doesn't matter were white (i'm white too).

sometimes the world looks different according to how it looks at you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Palestinian Arabs and other Muslims strongly disagree.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 06:45 PM by pnwmom
They say Israel's profiling discriminates against them.

This is about a pair of brothers who won a lawsuit claiming such discrimination.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11220.shtml

Two Palestinian citizens of Israel have won $8,000 in damages from Israel's national carrier, El Al, after a court found that their treatment by the company's security staff at a New York airport had been "abusive and unnecessary."

Brothers Abdel Wahab and Abdel Aziz Shalabi were assigned a female security guard who watched over them at the airport's departure gate for nearly two hours, in full view of hundreds of fellow passengers, after they had passed the security and baggage checks.

Later, El Al's head of security threatened to bar Abdel Wahab, 43, from the flight if he did not apologize to the guard for going to the toilet without first getting her approval. Abdel Aziz said he had been humiliated and "cried like I've never cried before in public."

Although surveys of Palestinian Arab citizens, who comprise one-fifth of Israel's population, show that most have suffered degrading treatment when flying with Israeli carriers, few bring cases to the Israeli courts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #70
76. Actually, the Israelis do engage in racial profiling.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 06:40 PM by pnwmom
And there was an uproar about this at the Johannesburg airport.

http://story.irishsun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/3a8a80d6f705f8cc/id/570743/cs/1

“What we are trained is to look for the immediate threat, the Muslim guy. You can think he is a suicide bomber, he is collecting information. The crazy thing is that we are profiling people racially, ethnically, and even on religious grounds,” Johnathon Garb, a former El Al security guard told the Johannesburg TV program. “This is what we do,” he added.

Mr. Garb said the El Al airline had been a front for Shin Bet for years. “Here is a secret service operating above the law in South Africa,” Garb said. “We pull the wool over everyones’ eyes. We do exactly what we want. The local authorities do not know what we are doing.”

Two other former security guards with El Al verified the allegations. They told Carte Blanche black and Muslim people were often taken to a special annex room where they were held for questioning. They were interrogated they said not necessarily on matters relating to airport security. In some cases they were strip searched and their luggage taken apart. Clandestine searches of their possessions and laptops were also carried out.

One person targeted for special treatment was Virginia Tilley, the chief researcher at South Africa’s Human Sciences Research Council which recently released a report accusing Israel of apartheid in the Palestinian territories. “The decision was she be checked in the harshest way because of her connections,” Garb told the Carte Blanche news program. He said Ms Tilley’s luggage was taken from her and documents in her possession were photo-copied and forwarded on to the Shin Bet in Israel. Ms Tilley confirmed she had been detained by El Al staff at the airport and her luggage was taken from her for inspection elsewhere.






For more links to articles about el Al's racial profiling:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9578604

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
77. Why the reference to "surly Russian immigrants"?
That seems unnecessary on Yglesias's part.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. no idea
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sally cat Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. Makes no sense to rule the method out without even trying it. The security theater is worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. Been through both, the Israeli approach is more civilized
and a damn site more effective
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. What do you think about the costs involved to have so many
highly trained security people?

I'm also curious about your reaction to this:

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/11/israeli-airport-security
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. I prefer to have highly trained and educated people questioning me
rather than poorly trained people scanning or groping me.


I would rather see a group of top-notch well paid people screening people questioning me, than paying hundreds of millions of dollars to the body scanning scammer corporations and their lobbyists - that even Israel does NOT use due to their ineffectiveness.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. It is not the employees
It is management.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. That may be.
However our experience occurs at the employee level, and there are certainly varying degrees of competence and judgment there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Of course
But I know what are the hiring /training and with 55k employees + we are all bound to find assess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
95. Given the number of bodies I have seen in airports TSA uniforms, it may well be less
I read the link yesterday and was somewhat taken back. I have traveled all over Europe and the Middle East and found Ben Gurion the easiest and most civilized to go through, better than Frankfort and others. To answer what he said, I am not Israeli, Jewish, nor with a tour group, yet had no problems. Did it solo and with family. Twice we had my bags go through a hand check after the initial scan. Again, clean and professional.

A thought...Ipads were banned in Israel for a while, not sure if the time periods coincide or not.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. I keep pointing to AICM, Mexico city
They have adopted large swaths of this, and it works.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. What sort of profiling do they do? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. They ask usual questions
Here is the tricky part, they look you in the eye.

Oh and document check is done at least five times.

They also do security theater, magnetometer and...they check all hand luggage before boarding, physically check it. That is the lastbstep, a physical luggage check.

The pat downs were added after the christmas theater, on requirement of us authorities.

There are transparent things to most users though, like k-9 teams, x-Ray of all cargo and both uniformed and non-uniformed patrols that are constant looking for things/people that don't belong.

Oh and the security layers start as you get close to the airport.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. What is "security theater"? "christmas theater"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. The magnetometer is needed so is x-Ray is needed
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 04:30 PM by nadinbrzezinski
But some of the measures, like everybody gets putdown was added last Christmas due to the FAA, that is theater.

They also check all cargo. No preferred shipping status. Huge hole
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
33. Israel deals with far greater terror threat with far less inconvenience and invasion of privacy than
the USA.



"Israelis, unlike Canadians and Americans, don't take s--- from anybody. When the security agency in Israel (the ISA) started to tighten security and we had to wait in line for — not for hours — but 30 or 40 minutes, all hell broke loose here. We said, 'We're not going to do this. You're going to find a way that will take care of security without touching the efficiency of the airport."…

"First, it's fast — there's almost no line. That's because they're not looking for liquids, they're not looking at your shoes. They're not looking for everything they look for in North America. They just look at you," said Sela. "Even today with the heightened security in North America, they will check your items to death. But they will never look at you, at how you behave. They will never look into your eyes ... and that's how you figure out the bad guys from the good guys."

That's the process — six layers, four hard, two soft. The goal at Ben-Gurion is to move fliers from the parking lot to the airport lounge in a maximum of 25 minutes.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother



Amazing and they don't have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on useless dollars on scanning equipment which is ineffective, or treat everyone to a groping in order to get on a plan. That is what the most secure airport in the world does.
Simply amazing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. They're just looking at "you" and they're not influenced by
racial or other profiling?

Yeah, right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. They do behavioral profiling
not racial profiling. Evidently you did not read the article.

Guess what? Their system works without putting their whole country through the radiation producing body scanning scammers or having to be groped by a stranger. Now we wouldn't want to model ourself after a country that has a more serious problem than ours, yet is highly effective in preventing terrorism at their airports, now would we?





As things stand today at US airports cuo bono?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. I've read many articles about the kind of profiling they do.
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 05:59 PM by pnwmom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. Ok reaching for the security hat
Assume for a second I got to check passport to establish bona fides...

And I find a visa for Argentina...

Now assume I find one for...oh Egypt...

Do you think it be propper for me to ask a few questions on either and which one would you think I'd ask a few more questions?

This is the kind of really basic stuff we're not doing in foreign travel... And internally we are not either. Instead we're checking people's junk, which prevents nothing. Experts are laughing at us, not with us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #73
83. That could be a reasonable question.
But our country is far more diverse than Israel. And we have hundreds of airports (thousands?) within the country. How are we supposed to decide who is the enemy?

I'm not saying there couldn't be a reason for some type of profiling -- but I AM saying that no system we could devise to protect our airports would be without risks to our civil liberties. Certainly not Israel's.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. They could do what they've done in mexico
Does not violate and works. This is American Exceptionalism and disaster capitalism.

I am sorry but what they are doing don't cut it. I'd rather fly from Mexican ports, than the present joke. Unlike us after 9.11 they went, can you do a review? And they already had security. We got the same offers and refused them. That is part of the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Do you have links about Mexico's procedures?
I'm interested.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. They don't publish them
I happen to notice due to training. But give me a minute to find old articles on consultations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. This link talks about checking all passengers "physically."
Whatever that means.

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_471837.html

Beside the usual security measures on entering departure areas, before boarding all passengers are checked exhaustively, not only their belongings but also physically, including babies,' an American Airlines official told AFP. American Airlines operates seven of the daily 70 flights to the United States from Mexico City's international airport, Latin America's busiest with 26 million travellers a year.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Whatever that means is a wand
and a light patdown, not a suspect patdown.

They also check all your bags before you board, No, not just looking outside they physically check the contents on them.

This can be amusing as my bottles from Target (prescription) caught their attention once. They checked them, against my passport. Each and every bottle that is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. Here is your spanish because here is one
though this was TSA... according to the paper (and I remember the hand held checks well before the Christmas Bomber, as in 2001 time lime)

http://www.elmanana.com.mx/notas.asp?id=157845

More of this

http://www.esmas.com/noticierostelevisa/mexico/420104.html

Finally this one

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2008/01/13/index.php?section=politica&article=018n1pol

Oh and realize the Airport in Mexico City also holds the Presidential Hangar... yes you have gates a stone's throw away from the Air Force Plane and the Choppers that transport the President of Mexico.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. delete
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 07:13 PM by pnwmom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
54. How many times have you flown into or out of Israel?
Just curious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. i have about 15 times...what would you like to know? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #55
98. I have several times, too, but I was asking the previous poster.
I was curious if she was speaking from experience. Because MY experience is, they engage in rigorous profiling and intensive questioning before they let you get near a plane. Which is fine and understandable, but I think the people who are having temper tantrums about the TSA don't know what they're talking about when they go on about Israel as some kind of security and hassle-free utopia. It's significantly less hassle-prone if you're Israeli, no doubt. (Profiling, again) But if Israel thought the nude scanners would help, I'm sure they'd use them too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
36. I don't think I want to fly.
What would these scanners do to people who already have lymphoma, like my 89 year old mom?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
65. The amount of radiation is many times less than the amount you get
just sitting in the airplane at a high altitude.

If you're going to worry, worry about that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
93. The radiation is additive and of concern to people who've already had high exposure
like former cancer patients. Moreover, some radiologists and radiation scientists have voiced concerns about whether the radiation exposures and associated risks were calibrated for this type of intensive skin-level dosage and for an every flight exposure as opposed to a rare secondary screening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
38. The American Gov't not training a nation full of cowards...
...would also be a better alternative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
79. The new TSA procedures sound really unpleasant.
But then I have to think about the failed underwear bomber and think that in the absence of a non-invasive scan/search procedure that would detect his explosives, what should our response be?

Are there options beyond (a) doing invasive scan/search of everyone, (b) doing invasive scan/search of a few people selected by profiling, or (c) letting him on the plane with his explosives?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. It would not detect it
It would be a very well endowed man...

Yes it was shaped in the form of a penis.

Now a far less invasive DOG, and good profile, on the other hand.

Security experts are laughing at us. Realize they've wanted these things since the Bush years...Rapiscans is owned by Chertoff...connect dots please.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #79
92. but they aren't scanning everyone or patting them down --just the old folks in wheelchairs
or people with other issues that set off the magnetometer. only a small portion of those who don't set it off get the full treatment.

so is this helping at this point? we are safe from wheelchair bombers, yes. and folks using walkers, well they won't be carrying explosives, but if they could be terrorists, well, they might whack you with their walker.

overall, i feel 7% safer.

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
82. They are a better alternative.
Michael Chertoff has a vested interest in these body-scanners.

The underwear bomber was on the DO NOT FLY list. Israel would not have missed that. Just our numbnuts Homeland Security would miss it and see the solution as groping everyone who flies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. Are you willing to pay for the extra costs?
Edited on Wed Nov-17-10 07:12 PM by pnwmom
All those highly trained screeners are expensive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
96. How many people are screened each year - I doubt as many as in the USA in a Day
America is a big country.

What works in a tiny one is unlikely to scale well to this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
howard112211 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
97. AFAIK, they rely pretty heavily on profiling.
As a white American one will never notice much inconvenience.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
99. Israel's airport security is actually founded on trained observers at check points evaluating behavi
Edited on Mon Nov-22-10 01:01 AM by Mimosa
Here's a good article about how Israel's system works. I've known several people who've been there and say it's more efficient, faster than American airport security:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother

Excerpt:

While North America's airports groan under the weight of another sea-change in security protocols, one word keeps popping out of the mouths of experts: Israelification. That is, how can we make our airports more like Israel's, which deal with far greater terror threat with far less inconvenience.

"It is mindboggling for us Israelis to look at what happens in North America, because we went through this 50 years ago," said Rafi Sela, the president of AR Challenges, a global transportation security consultancy. He's worked with the RCMP, the U.S. Navy Seals and airports around the world.

"Israelis, unlike Canadians and Americans, don't take s--- from anybody. When the security agency in Israel (the ISA) started to tighten security and we had to wait in line for — not for hours — but 30 or 40 minutes, all hell broke loose here. We said, 'We're not going to do this. You're going to find a way that will take care of security without touching the efficiency of the airport."

That, in a nutshell is "Israelification" - a system that protects life and limb without annoying you to death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Francois_Dillinger Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
101. Thom Hartmann was discussing the Israeli procedures on his radio show last week
From his description, it sounded like a reasonable way to do it, provided the "profiling" is based on something other than race, religion, etc. Thom said that he was even "profiled" himself because he had a Saudi Arabian tag on his luggage.

Problem with the TSA as Chimpy set it up is that these people were not well trained to do what they had been doing the last 8 years, let alone what they are doing now with the groping and these ghastly Chertoff machines.

It makes more sense - fiscally, logically, whatever - to have well trained professionals using some common sense tactics to prevent terrorism, rather than useless machines that put citizens health at risk and shit all over their civil rights.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Apr 29th 2024, 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC